Path of War blues

[Cranky Mcduff]

I apologize in advance if there is a PoW board on here somewhere. I couldn't find one. Anywho, one of the games I'm running (Emerald Spire) the party is made up of PoW and Spheres characters(5th level, almost at 6). On level 7, in the Forge, they run up against a Salamander. CR 6 encounter, so not to hard for the 5 of them. Round 1, The Spheres Cleric tosses on an Enhancement buff(cold) onto weapons, The Stalker, in Pugilist Stance, activates his Deadly Insight(proc's Deadly Strike) and double moves into position to flank, The Warder double moves towards it to block any advance, the Incanter applies a defensive buff, and the Elementalist was dinking around in the hallway for some reason. The Salamander beats on the Warder. Round 2, The Stalker moves into flanking, proceeds to activate the Bronze Knuckle boost(+2d6 on all attacks)and cuts loose with Steel Flurry Strike(3 attacks at -2 for +3d6 per hit). He rolls well and lands all 3 attacks(1d4+6 per punch). With both Maneuvers(totaling +5d6 per hit), his Deadly Strike(+2d6 per hit), Pugilist Stance(+1d6 per hit), and his normal damage he rolled 24d6+3d4+18. He did 142 points of damage. At level 5.

Now, I understand that this is an extreme example involving a lot of things lining up just right followed by good rolls. I was a huge fan of Tome of Battle and I understand that Dreamscarred is trying to close the "gap" between Martials and Casters in addition to giving Martials something to do besides charge and full round attacks. Especially at higher levels, where Casters run rampant on the battlefield. The problem, is that the pendulum has swung the other direction. The Sorcerer casts his Scorching Ray for 15-16 damage, the Stalker unleashes the above, and the Battle Cleric is standing around bemoaning the fact that he just got regulated to heals/support when that wasn't what he built.

I get, that as a DM, I can just adjust the encounters to give more of a challenge, but that's not fair to the other non-PoW characters who get saddled with support roles, propping up the POW characters so they can murder everything. Or they just get killed because they can't keep up. Please note that I'm not really complaining, I'm just exasperated and venting. I love the idea behind this system and want to keep it in my games, so the question I have for my fellow Giants in the Playground is: Can someone give me a reason or reasons to keep this? Thanks.

[Boci]

Steel Flurry Strike is likely the problematic component in that equation, its way too powerful as discussed here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?376206-What-is-with-the-Broken-Blade-Discipline

There were some suggested fixes, including one I offered which was to only apply the extra damage is the attacks were made unarmed.

That said, it may be the rest of the players are not at the level of the the high optimization floor offered by PoW. I remember ToB made for pretty good multiclassing with non-martial initiates, maybe the stalker could the same and go half ranger?

So, vet maneuvers a bit more carefully, and maybe ask the stalker to multiclass would be my recommendations at this point. Do you think the stalker will accept that?

Any problems with the warden's abilities?

[Eldaran]

Well, a single big enemy is almost always less effective than multiple slightly weaker enemies. Any number of things could have ended that encounter with one failed save by the salamander.

That being said, Path of War stuff does tend to have too much damage tacked on to a lot of its effects, and from my experience Steel Flurry Strike is the biggest offender by far. I believe even the developers have pointed out that specific maneuver as deserving a nerf. I'd probably lower its bonus damage to 1d6, or even no bonus damage at all. Also do keep in mind he had to use two swifts to achieve this (boost and deadly insight) so not achieveable in one round, though I imagine he would have killed it anyway.

I'd definitely recommend challenging a party with PoW characters by using more enemies, interesting defensive effects (giving enemies counters for example), and using terrain features to slow down the pace of combat to prevent them from stomping everything. Simply buffing things hit points will, as you said, unfairly punish other characters.

[neversterling]

Here is the thread you're looking for: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444869-Dreamscarred-Press-Path-of-War-Expanded!-(Thread-VII)

The thing you should know is that several disciplines are currently over-tuned for damage and they plan to release errata after Path of War: Expanded to tone it down.

Broken Blade is pretty high on that list, as well as Primal Fury. There's also talk of toning down Black Seraph, Thrashing Dragon, and Scarlet Throne, and increasing the output of Steel Serpent.

In the games that I am GMing and playing in, Broken Blade and Primal Fury are taken out and replaced with the choice of something else flavorful or anything the player wants.

[Cranky Mcduff]

@Boci: That Link pretty much validates the nerf I laid down on it(Removed the -2 and the bonus damage making it an upgraded Flurry Strike essentially). To expand, I'm using Emerald Spire as a stomping ground to test out Pow and Spheres of Power to see if I want to include them in my main campaign. I AM taking notes as we go concerning what I might wanna change/buff/nerf and I've already poked the "ask me anything" thread for Spheres with a 10ft pole several times. With that in mind, I asked my players not to multi-class. Though If I DO decide to include them, I'll keep that in mind.

@Eldaran: Good ideas. For the purpose of my "test" in the Spire, I'm pretty much keeping the encounters as-is, at least for the moment, so I can more accurately gauge what I want to alter. I had planned on running a session or two AWAY from the Spire using some of the ideas in my note to see how they fare. I'll use your suggestions as well.

@neversterling: I've had that link bookmarked for awhile now, though I haven't read all 21 pages of the thread. I'm pretty excited for Expanded and it's good to know they plan on errata'ing several Disciplines.

Thanks guys. It's why I keep coming back to these forums. :smallsmile:

On a fun note, the player of the Warder has a bad habit of Leeroy Jenkins'ing stuff and pulled the last 3 encounters into the last room by loudly singing and banging his hammer on his shield walking down the last corridor. So...1 Dark Naga, 1 Serpentfolk Cleric, 2 Ogrekin, 1 Quickling(poison blades), and 1 Fiendish Constrictor. Right around CR10 or 11 total. They took a beating and all BUT the Warder survived. He crit-failed his save vs a Dominate Person(the Serpentfolk Cleric) and was ordered to climb down into the nearby pit to collect the treasure there. Nevermind the Advance Venomous Snake Swarm at the bottom..... He's now playing a Warlord.

[stack]

Yeah, that boost/strike combo is crazy. I make it a point to not take sleet flurry strike until it gets nerfed.

In my experience playing PoW characters based on other disciplines they have been more versatile but not necessarily more damaging. My hawk guard passes on damage for combat maneuvers frequently and defends the party by intercepting attacks. I have a warlord focused on silver crane who does big damage, but that is in Wrath of the Righteous with gear focused on fighting evil outsiders, so he is basically a paladin. Paladins also do a ton of damage in that campaign if built properly.

[TheIronGolem]

Don't forget that the bad guys can learn and use manuevers too. Even if you don't give them levels in initiating classes, you can always give your baddies Martial Training feats and a handful of maneuvers from whatever discipline fits the theme. Counters, in particular, are nice to have on monsters so they can occasionally Nope Card a PC's attack.