Do you include PrC "Fetch Quest" requirements in your campaings?

[Albions_Angel]

So the Rainbow Servant requires you to find a temple to a specific god in a specific place. Often times, your world might not have that god, nor that type of area.

Now, you could assign a new god, and change the location, but frankly, is it worth it? Is there a point to those requirements outside of pre-written campaigns and settings? Do those requirements prohibit entry to otherwise powerful prestige? On the surface of it they seem like pointless time wasting exercise, or plot hooks for times when you have lost control of the game and want to regain it. Or maybe its something to throw in to an otherwise normal temple raid to give your players a nudge towards a PrC?

Do the experienced DMs of the forum include those requirements in PrCs or just not bother?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Do those requirements prohibit entry to otherwise powerful prestige?
I can answer this bit, and I'd say 'no'. There are some powerful classes gated by fluffy requirements (circle magic classes, for one), but there are also non-powerful/weak classes similarly restricted.

[shadow_archmagi]

I've never done it because I've never been interested in running the PrC questlines. I'm not going to set a precedent that every time a PC wants to become a Rainbow Savant, I'm going to run a Rainbow Temple. I've got my own storyline I'm doing. I might run a Rainbow Temple once just for the heck of it, but I see no reason to make it a standard part of the game.

[Coidzor]

Only one I remember that wasn't basically handwaved was Knight of the Raven. In the adventure it was published in, so Castle Ravenloft was right there and we had to go there eventually anyway.

[Florian]

Do the experienced DMs of the forum include those requirements in PrCs or just not bother?

I do include them, yes. It´s the same as shopping for your WBL: If you can´t do that at the moment, you´ve got to postpone it. What I do offer, tho, is the option to stop advancing your class and just "shoring" up XP for later if you´re really hellbent on entering a certain PrC at a specific level.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I've never done it because I've never been interested in running the PrC questlines. I'm not going to set a precedent that every time a PC wants to become a Rainbow Savant, I'm going to run a Rainbow Temple. I've got my own storyline I'm doing. I might run a Rainbow Temple once just for the heck of it, but I see no reason to make it a standard part of the game.
This. I can see including them in a sandbox game (possibly with some sort of leveling delay/retraining deal like Florian mentioned), but I usually run pretty story-driven campaigns; I don't want to stop and drag the party off-course for the sake of one player.

[Toilet Cobra]

Now, you could assign a new god, and change the location, but frankly, is it worth it?

Frankly I usually add a requirement like this to most prestige classes, unless I'm DMing for a group that I know will have no patience for it (rare). In this particular case, I would do just as you describe, unless I think of something better that fits my world more closely.

I think, overall, players get a lot of satisfaction from these requirements and their attendant quests. When they start taking those prestige class levels, they really feel like an equal member of an elite clubhouse. If you let someone take Super Secret Cabal Wizard 1 as easily as they take Wizard 7, then it will only feel like a different set of class features. Most of the players I have run games for like the extra connection with the world and the affirmation of their place in it.

Just my 2¢ as always.

[OldTrees1]

No, unless the player requests one in which case I add a better one.

They do add something to the classes, but they are frequently poorly chosen (like all prerequisites) and sometimes a class is being refluffed for something and thus the class is merely mechanics.

[ngilop]

No, unless the player requests one in which case I add a better one.

They do add something to the classes, but they are frequently poorly chosen (like all prerequisites) and sometimes a class is being refluffed for something and thus the class is merely mechanics.

Yes I do everytime.

To me PrCs ( which stand for Prestige Classes) are supposed to be.. ya know Prestigious. I know the majority of players just think oh im 6th level now.. time to take that first level in X PrC. Especially for the vast majority of GiTPers who deal more with optimization than other aspects.

For me though, going through the progression of said Prestige Classes should represent a way to specialize your character and attain some sort of prominence of one kind or another.

FOr example if one wanted to be a rainbow servant, they HAVE to find the hidden temple of the coatls. That is where the lore, information, and transformation comes from the coatls. I have no qualms with people saying 'coatls do not exist in my campaign world its now creature Y" But to say instead as the Op requirements are pointless you just wake up and completely know how to advanced in your studies as a rainbow servant to me seems boring.


But I love to run games where my players actually shape and interact with the world. at the same time I know that at least in these forums I am a outlier and I think the sole person with my stance on how games 'should' be played. So feel absolutely free to completely disregard anything I say and think im some sort of crazy guy.

[daremetoidareyo]

All of the responses thus far are correct.

As a DM, I hate being compelled by something I think is stupid. As a player, I want all the power at the lowest cost. As a DM again, I need inspiration here and there, but I don't want to derail a story for one player's power fantasy. As a player again, I often need to fabricate interest in something to get the whole group moving towards riches and XP, so having a fluff mechanic is helpful in my suspension of disbelief issues. As a DM, I'll change what I need to and make it happen somehow, but it may end up like your deadbeat dad planned your birthday and invited his friends over to get drunk with.

So the deadbeat dad compromise is usually the people pleaser. Hoops are jumped through, power is gained, DM moves their mechanations forward or has inherent sandbox fodder provided for them, and PCs get the prestige class they want. That coutl temple might end up being a wererat warren built on top of an ancient underground coutl hibernaculum, or that assassin's first target might be unusually convenient to the story line already in place. And the kid gets to blow out a flaming cake at the end of the night after running around getting snot everywhere while the adults drink. Compromise is awesome.

[OldTrees1]

Yes I do everytime.

To me PrCs ( which stand for Prestige Classes) are supposed to be.. ya know Prestigious. I know the majority of players just think oh im 6th level now.. time to take that first level in X PrC. Especially for the vast majority of GiTPers who deal more with optimization than other aspects.

For me though, going through the progression of said Prestige Classes should represent a way to specialize your character and attain some sort of prominence of one kind or another.

FOr example if one wanted to be a rainbow servant, they HAVE to find the hidden temple of the coatls. That is where the lore, information, and transformation comes from the coatls. I have no qualms with people saying 'coatls do not exist in my campaign world its now creature Y" But to say instead as the Op requirements are pointless you just wake up and completely know how to advanced in your studies as a rainbow servant to me seems boring.


But I love to run games where my players actually shape and interact with the world. at the same time I know that at least in these forums I am a outlier and I think the sole person with my stance on how games 'should' be played. So feel absolutely free to completely disregard anything I say and think im some sort of crazy guy.

I completely agree with you. PrCs should be prestigious. However WotC made many mistakes. Sometimes I compromise out of laziness and sacrifice the burden and benefit of prestige in order to patch another mistake. However if the player wants a PrC to be prestigious it shall be.

[Albions_Angel]

But I love to run games where my players actually shape and interact with the world. at the same time I know that at least in these forums I am a outlier and I think the sole person with my stance on how games 'should' be played. So feel absolutely free to completely disregard anything I say and think im some sort of crazy guy.

I dont think you are crazy at all! I would love to run sandbox games, and my players actions DO shape the world, though the world doesnt stand still until they do something and they arnt the only high level things out there (my main world, the average folk are between level 1 and 3 experts and commoners, while the Jarl is a level 15 fighter/crusader and his brother, the previous Jarl, was a level 14 Bard/Paladin/Expert (diplomat), while the command structure of the army runs from about 13th down to 5th. Martial world needs martial people.) so its often hard to notice what they change and what just happens.

On the other hand, I am a very good (other people, not me) story teller, and I like my set pieces and my plot line. Its fine for you to wander off and go fishing for 3 sessions, but meanwhile the world is falling apart and I, the DM, am getting bored.

So no, you arnt crazy, and I admire you. I just cant do what you do. :)

[Florian]

I dont think you are crazy at all! I would love to run sandbox games, and my players actions DO shape the world, though the world doesnt stand still until they do something and they arnt the only high level things out there (my main world, the average folk are between level 1 and 3 experts and commoners, while the Jarl is a level 15 fighter/crusader and his brother, the previous Jarl, was a level 14 Bard/Paladin/Expert (diplomat), while the command structure of the army runs from about 13th down to 5th. Martial world needs martial people.) so its often hard to notice what they change and what just happens.

On the other hand, I am a very good (other people, not me) story teller, and I like my set pieces and my plot line. Its fine for you to wander off and go fishing for 3 sessions, but meanwhile the world is falling apart and I, the DM, am getting bored.

So no, you arnt crazy, and I admire you. I just cant do what you do. :)

Honestly, what´s keeping you from doing it? There´re some extremely good sandbox settings available, notably Red Tide from Sine Nomine.

[TheIronGolem]

No, I don't. As far as I'm concerned, PrC's are just lists of class features (as are all other classes). Their purpose is to be building blocks for players to embody through game mechanics the characters they are envisioning, and nothing else.

That's not to say that I don't have in-universe organizations that the PC's might want to join, and that might require a quest to join them. I do. But this is divorced from the mechanics of character progression. Joining the Assassin's Guild and taking levels in Assassin are two different things, and the one does not require the other.

[torrasque666]

I do a bit of both. I'll let the player take the class, but they won't gain special abilities until they meet the special requirements. Still gain spellcasting advancement, but if the class itself grants casting they don't gain it. Let's them take it and continue advancement, but also doesn't just let them go Willy nilly on classes. Weak classes I'll make easier to get into (having the event actually occur in the plot) while powerful ones will require convincing the party to go off on a side quest that they may or may not care about. If the party doesn't want to, you're more than welcome to bring in a temporary PC for a level or two while your regular one goes and accomplishes their goal.

[Âmesang]

I enjoy flavor/fluff requirements for PrCs so long as they're not too obnoxious. :smalltongue: Even then I hope I get a chance to play a DRAGONLANCE® game and work towards becoming a "Wizard of High Sorcery," even if the attempt might kill me.

In that same vein if I ever get the chance to run a sandbox WORLD OF GREYHAWK® game I'd like to tie the Epic Spellcasting feat with the Eight-Pointed Star device within Maure Castle; if a player wants to unlock the secrets of Suel "Power Magic," he'll have to track down the eight octychs and explore their individual demiplanes, eventually making peaceful contact with the Apprentices of Slerotin.

With the Age of Worms Adventure Path, Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk, Return to the Ghost Tower of Inverness, and elements of the Oerth Journal #23, there should be plenty to work with in that regard.

[icefractal]

I like the idea of organizations and abilities that need in-game actions to join/acquire. However, I don't think I'd use PrCs for this purpose, in 3.5 as written. While it may have been the original intent, at this point PrC serve a number of purposes, including ones like "have this character work at all". I don't want to say "you have to be a sidekick for the next 10+ sessions before we get to your PrC quest" and neither do I want to say "forget everything you're currently interested in, we're dropping all that so Bob can go do his PrC quest now".

So yes to the concept, but IMC it would be for getting extra side-abilities that weren't part of the main progression, or just being in an organization for the non-character-sheet benefits. A group that can provide covert transportation and cover identities at short notice is already useful without granting feats, for instance.

[ngilop]

I whole heartidly agree that WoTC and well most of any and all 3rd party (yes im including pathfinder as 3rd party) prestige classes are for the most part, borked. When you have the incantrix next to the reaping mauler and deem them equal.. you have got serious problems.

@ the iron golem. One does not even need to enter the prestige class assassin to be an assassin. just take some money from somebody then go kill somebody. POW now you are an assassin

But what if said person wanted to be a Hand of Death (tm..?) and only one organization teaches let alone knows the specific martial abilities and skills to become a Hand of Death? would you just wave that and say 'you do not need any unique teaching?' further more.. why have any requirements at all I guess, I mean that is the logical end point of the OP's sentiment. I guess why not just let peeps be a PrC from level 1?

@Albions_Angel, Its not actually that hard to incorporatenor does it require a sandbox style game to include a specific players character's concept into the overall campaign. For one example in a modified d20 modern (you stopped getting DX HP after 1st level and just got 1 HP) The setting was basically me watching red dawn ( not the kinda shabby new one, but the 1980s one) California sunk into the ocean alone with parts of Oregon and Nevada and those communist 'illigetimates' invaded but we stopped their advanced and made duckwater into a massive fortress city. One guy was a dedicated hero who was obsessed with alien life. I had a dungeon where it was an advanced secret R&D lab I forget the reason the players needed to go their.. but Queue what amounted to the Thing ( the 1980s movie) minus the actual alien. The player found so, so much circumstancial evidence about alien life and otherworld intelligence and eventually found definitve proof, they do not exist*.The player loved it so much that a whole dungeon was about his weird character's oddness and decided that the 'proof' at the end was the gov'ment forcing them to deny the existence and all the circumstancial stuff points the way.

* I had the base idea of the campaign out , commies invade the world economies collapse, Amish people basically save the USA, near future like 2080 or so. With collaboration with my players we decided the following 1) Hp makes no sense rockets to the face should kill any body, not slightly inconvience them 2) No alien life 3) genetic tamperic just recently came about, which is mostly splicing with various animal such as starfish to heal faster and cats to get night vision etc. 4) no artificial Intelligence.

[TheIronGolem]

@ the iron golem. One does not even need to enter the prestige class assassin to be an assassin. just take some money from somebody then go kill somebody. POW now you are an assassin


Well, that's kind of my point. "Assassin" has multiple meanings depending on context (person who kills for money, person who took Assassin levels, person who joined the Assassin's Guild), and I deny that to be an "assassin" in any one of those senses requires being one in any other.



But what if said person wanted to be a Hand of Death (tm..?) and only one organization teaches let alone knows the specific martial abilities and skills to become a Hand of Death? would you just wave that and say 'you do not need any unique teaching?'

Your "Hand of Death" is just an Assassin's Guild by another name, so no, that doesn't change things for me at all. The players might have reason to want to join this Hand of Death, and they might have to do the group some kind of favor in order to do so. And once they're in, they would gain access to certain resources. But those resources would be things like equipment, information, and contacts, not the right to take levels in some theoretical, previously-locked Hand of Death PrC.

If that PrC exists in my campaign, it'll be available to anyone who meets the mechanical pre-reqs and decoupled from any fluff that's specific to the Hand of Death group. Because whatever super-secret techniques the Hand of Death teaches to its members, I promise you that somewhere in the world, someone else teaches something that can be represented by the same class features, even if the in-universe logic behind them is completely different. And the PC's may well have developed those techniques themselves through independent study.

That said, one or more of my players might choose to have their character accept training by this Hand of Death when they enter the PrC. That's a perfectly valid choice. But it would be no less valid if they chose to dispense with the whole "Hand of Death" angle and instead explained their new abilities as being merely a further development of the same skills they've already been practicing during their adventures.


further more.. why have any requirements at all I guess, I mean that is the logical end point of the OP's sentiment. I guess why not just let peeps be a PrC from level 1?

That's not the logical endpoint of any argument that's been presented here at all.

[Florian]

@Theirongolem:

You know, the problem when divorcing fluff from rules is that you are then forced to go the whole way and don´t do it points-only. If "some" things are simply options, then "all" things are simply more options and that leads to a downward spiral that more or less simply enforces system mastery.

[TheIronGolem]

@Theirongolem:

You know, the problem when divorcing fluff from rules is that you are then forced to go the whole way and don´t do it points-only. If "some" things are simply options, then "all" things are simply more options and that leads to a downward spiral that more or less simply enforces system mastery.

Explain, please. I've certainly never been "forced" to do any such thing, and my games include people of varying levels of system mastery.

[Malimar]

This has only been relevant once in a game I've run. Not for a PrC, but when an established PC wanted to become a Dragonborn of Bahamut Numiel, I did enforce the "you've gotta go find a good dragon willing to itch you off some of his scales" requirement. I didn't make it particularly onerous, though -- he asked the Abbot of the Monastery of Numiel, who was all like "there's a dragon in this cave, bring my greetings to him when you find him". And then when they found the dragon, the dragon was all like "Traditionally I should send you on a little quest to prove your worth before giving you some scales, but if you're really worthy you'll do the quest even if I don't tie a reward to it. So here, have some scales, and here's the location of a succubus you'll probably want to find and kill." (They're currently looking for the succubus now.)

This is in a sandbox game. In a story-driven campaign, I don't know if I'd want to take too much time out from the story.

[Esprit15]

It depends on the class. Classes like Hand of the Reaper (where there is only one at any one time) should honestly require someone to go through some level of the quests laid out for them, but it is a case by case thing, both depending on the power of the class and the fluff.

One thing I did in a game is ask players if they were going to be taking classes that required any sort of quest, and tried to work those in particular into the story.

[Florian]

Explain, please. I've certainly never been "forced" to do any such thing, and my games include people of varying levels of system mastery.

Not "forced" but "divorced". Either things reflect an in-game reality or the don´t, then they´re only playing pieces without any meaning attached.

[TheIronGolem]

Either things reflect an in-game reality or the don´t

They do; nothing I've said contradicts that.

[Krazzman]

If I would run a 3.5 game I would do it like iron golem.

In game you aren't the warblade barbarian frenzied berserker named steve. You are steve the Warrior with an anger problem or curse that learned the teachings of the nine swords or similar.

Ino my first campaign as a player we had a Paladin / purple dragon knight. He wanted to be called knight or sir. Not paladin.

Or my dusk blade. He was called a warrior.

Fluff is a thing that you can rip completely from a class without any downward spiral.

How did the first drunken master came to pass? Some guy figured it out.
Making prestige classes prestigious would've been a nice idea somewhere around the design of 3.0 and would need a complete overhaul now.

[Jack_Simth]

Making prestige classes prestigious would've been a nice idea somewhere around the design of 3.0 and would need a complete overhaul now.
You may wish to read the Prestige class header section in the DMG for either 3.0 or 3.5. They were originally intended as extensions of world-building and fluff. The gaming community at large has largely glossed over that.