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View Full Version : DM Help A solo BBEG idea



Dhuraal
2016-03-01, 01:14 PM
So general wisdom is that the BBEG (or other uber boss/monster) going solo against the party is a bad idea due to the players being able to almost faceroll thanks to action/turn economy, unless the enemy is way too uber. Myself, I have followed this thought and always given him mooks to fight with.

However, I have been thinking about running an encounter with a single adequately powered boss/monster/whatever, but offsetting the issue by giving him a full second turn in the rotation. I was curious to hear if anyone else had tried this or something similar, and what your results may have been. I will be doing this in 5E, but experiences from other systems are welcome.

If anyone is curious; my group is 6 players, with Paladin, Druid, Bard, Fighter, Ranger, and Rogue.

Douche
2016-03-01, 02:02 PM
What's that thing vampires have that allows them to automatically pass a failed save if they choose? Legendary Resistance or something? Like, if they fail a wisdom save to get charmed or something, they can say "Screw that" and choose to pass instead, 3x a day.

That seems to be designed for solo villains to avoid the encounter being trivialized by an unforeseen ability like that.

Slipperychicken
2016-03-01, 06:20 PM
That's pretty much what legendary actions and lair actions are supposed to do. They give the boss some extra moves outside the normal turn order.


What's that thing vampires have that allows them to automatically pass a failed save if they choose? Legendary Resistance or something? Like, if they fail a wisdom save to get charmed or something, they can say "Screw that" and choose to pass instead, 3x a day.

Yeah, that's a thing that bosses are supposed to have. It does its job, but it really brings in the metagame when you have to start basing your character's decisions around whether an enemy is a true boss-monster or just a big minion. And in my opinion it's just a bandage over an imperfect saving throw system, albeit a much-needed one in the case of boss enemies.

If your DM rolls in secret and really doesn't want you to disable a boss, there's no good way to tell whether the boss rolled well, the DM nope'd it with Legendary Resistance, or if the DM is simply fudging it. At that point you might as well not bother with save-or-X and just try to pile on damage.

goto124
2016-03-02, 12:46 AM
Traps. Traps everywhere.

lt_murgen
2016-03-02, 09:42 AM
The BBEG in the Black Company series are a good example - the Taken. 10 very powerful sorcerers who scheme against each others for centuries.

Imagine taking decades to fashion defensive spells into the very clothing and skin of the BBEG. Fast reaction spells, protection from normal weapons spells, fire immunity, cold immunity, electrical reflection spells. Every conceivable counter for every conceivable type of attack.

One of them, Soulcatcher, functioned for years with her head cut off. She carried it around in a box. The Limper was violently dismembered several times- eventually taking over a stone golem for a body. And so on....

JeenLeen
2016-03-02, 10:09 AM
From 5e, you could give the boss abilities such as Extra Attack or the ability to do things as a bonus action, letting the boss do multiple things on its initiative. That doesn't stop the players from all getting their actions before it acts again, but at least it lets the number of actions per round be on par. A reaction ability could also help with this.

lt-murgen's Black Company note reminded me of a boss from a Mage: The Ascension campaign. Way different system, but the defense and action economy may work. Some of this might be from (one of?) the final boss(es) in Mage's end-of-the-world campaign, so I'm going to spoiler it.

Voormas, archmage of entropy, set to 'destroy' all reality (not really destroy, but close enough.)

The lair negates certain things, like Haste (multiple actions per round) spells, teleportation, and summons.
The boss has a lot of spells boosting his defenses. Immunity to many types of attack and mind magic, for example.
He had a lot of magic items that he could use once/round. This meant essentially that he got 3-4 attacks per round.

We beat him by using a McGuffin dagger to strip him of his wards until we could hit him with damaging magic.

In 5e terms, the additional advice to what I already wrote is to make it so the boss' aura or location negates some things that would boost the action economy of the party, like animal companions, summons, etc. (BUT do make sure the players know and aren't too ticked. I could see this bugging the druid.)

Anonymouswizard
2016-03-02, 10:14 AM
In general there are two ways to make a boss monster work:

1) make it able to shrug off PC actions
2) make it act more often

5e took the first route with legendary resistance allowing boss monsters to shrug off annoying spells. This is good for the GM, as it allows them to have the BBEG still fight, but runs the risk of boss fights turning into a 'burn through the HP' instead of strategic condition placement, which is what annoys me with many JRPG bosses.

The second route is generally more 'unfair', with a few exceptions. I plan to run a low-power GURPS campaign at some point inspired by the Half-Life series, and boss aliens will generally be gimmicky, with one where the gimmick is 'they literally act twice a round' (because GURPS has an advantage for that). It allows a single enemy to fight on a more equal footing with a group of PCs, but can be hard to justify.

EDIT: the other way is of course traps or minions. I generally give my bosses a bunch of minions, because they are very rarely 'loads of power' characters.

Dhuraal
2016-03-02, 11:26 AM
Hmmm, I am aware of the Legendary Actions and Lairs for creatures/monsters like that. And it is my fault for user the term BBEG and uber, but what I was thinking was a more standard boss battle, if that makes sense. Like say the chieftain of the orc camp, the monstrous pet of an eccentric you angered, or the bodies of all the dead in this tomb rather than being raised individually into zombies, are melded into one giant zombie abomination/golem thing. For higher level characters it may just be any other thing to fight before breakfast, but at this level, one of them is a challenge by himself. That kind of situation.

Anonymouswizard
2016-03-02, 12:08 PM
To be honest, I wouldn't go 'one boss monster' there, I'd go boss and minionions. So you fight your way through the orc camp and reach Thog Facesmasher the chief, a 5th level orc fighter, but he also has 5 of his best warriors (generic orcs) with him. A fierce battle begins, with Thog and his warriors fighting until eventually the PCs win.

If I do want Thog to be dangerous, I likely wouldn't be using D&D, but a game that doesn't have one turn/character/round, such as Shadowrun, and then give them lots of turns. For example, in Street-level Shadowrun the 'boss' might be a troll with Dermal Armour and Wired Reflexes, while for normal level play it might be a dodge adepr or tooled up Street Sam (even easier in 5e with essence-cheap initiative boosters). In D&D ID suggest just having them act at full initiative and initiative-10 (-20 and so on for additional actions).

CharonsHelper
2016-03-02, 12:16 PM
However, I have been thinking about running an encounter with a single adequately powered boss/monster/whatever, but offsetting the issue by giving him a full second turn in the rotation. I was curious to hear if anyone else had tried this or something similar, and what your results may have been. I will be doing this in 5E, but experiences from other systems are welcome.

I've seen similar things done in miniatures wargames for monsters (I think the D&D mini game did actually) where certain characters/monsters get multiple turns. I'm not sure if it would convert to 5e well though. When I've seen it, it's usually that they get to do different aspects of the character at different times.

For example, a dragon would get their 1st turn to use their bite/claws against a single foe, a 2nd to use their wide tail slap in an arc, and every few rounds they get a 3rd turn to use their breath weapon.

While I could see this working in an RPG, it seems like the system would need to be built with it in mind from the ground up. To make it work decently in 5e would require major house-rules.

JeenLeen
2016-03-03, 04:50 PM
I've seen similar things done in miniatures wargames for monsters (I think the D&D mini game did actually) where certain characters/monsters get multiple turns. I'm not sure if it would convert to 5e well though. When I've seen it, it's usually that they get to do different aspects of the character at different times.

For example, a dragon would get their 1st turn to use their bite/claws against a single foe, a 2nd to use their wide tail slap in an arc, and every few rounds they get a 3rd turn to use their breath weapon.

While I could see this working in an RPG, it seems like the system would need to be built with it in mind from the ground up. To make it work decently in 5e would require major house-rules.

I could see this working by having the 'boss' be, in mechanical terms, several creatures that occupy the same space. Maybe the head, two arms, and the body. The body has resistance to all damage unless the other parts are destroyed. Each part has its own initiative and actions, so the boss is 4 monsters mechanically. You could have it move a little bit on any of its turns or just on the body turn.

(maybe not the best example since I have the head being optional, but depends on the boss type)
This idea probably works better for dragons, golems, and very big bosses, as opposed to a random orc chief or wizard. But I guess a wizard could have McGuffin crystals that defend it and attack independently, and those are the 'extra parts'.

Gallade
2016-03-03, 05:08 PM
I could see this working by having the 'boss' be, in mechanical terms, several creatures that occupy the same space. Maybe the head, two arms, and the body. The body has resistance to all damage unless the other parts are destroyed. Each part has its own initiative and actions, so the boss is 4 monsters mechanically. You could have it move a little bit on any of its turns or just on the body turn.

(maybe not the best example since I have the head being optional, but depends on the boss type)
This idea probably works better for dragons, golems, and very big bosses, as opposed to a random orc chief or wizard. But I guess a wizard could have McGuffin crystals that defend it and attack independently, and those are the 'extra parts'.

Eh, I tried that with a giant hydra. My players were savvy enough to figure out the way to beat it, making prepared actions to deal fire damage to each head after it got cut so they could cauterize it and avoid it growing back. They all had fun figuring out its weakness, though.

lperkins2
2016-03-03, 07:42 PM
I've had a lot of success with solo BBEG and BBEG's lieutenant encounters, without giving bonus actions or other super powers to the 'boss'. The key is to make it not a standard combat encounter. (That doesn't mean no combat, just not CaS stand in a room (with or without interesting terrain) and beat on each other). The nature of the encounter depends on the goal of the BBEG. The four most common 'solo BBEG' encounters I use (in order of frequency) are The Escape, The Defence, The Slaughter, and The Surrender. The key with each of these is the BBEG's number one priority is survival. As mentioned above, the action economy is not on the side of the BBEG, so if he wants to live, he needs to avoid a head-on confrontation. Rather than granting 'magic' bonus actions to the BBEG, all of the following scenarios attempt to limit the number of actions taken by the PCs.

Encounter Type 1: The Escape

This is the easiest encounter to set up and run, it's also probably the most useful. I use it a lot for introducing villains (and sometimes for introducing allies), but that is hardly the extent of its use. As the name implies, the villain's goal in this encounter is to escape (survive by fleeing). It's great when both sides are surprised (not mechanically, just not expecting the encounter). If the PCs know the lieutenant is in the area, you may find the encounter cut short by a lucky shot, and the number one reason for the villain to run is that he doesn't know what he's up against. The PCs could be just mooks, with something truly powerful following them in, so even if the villain is strong enough to take the PCs in a stand up fight, he chooses to run away since it's not worth the risk. Ideally, he needs to drop something to liven up the encounter before he leaves (summon monster, cloudkill, earthquake, depending on the levels involved). The goal is to make the party glad to have survived with as little damage as they took, even if they would likely have one in a stand up fight. The fact that the villain opened with a high level spell, followed by (dimension door, gate, ethereal jaunt, et cetera) can leave the party thinking he's more powerful than he really is, when in fact it's just his predetermined escape sequence. Since the combat portion of the encounter lasts less than a round, the villain is unlikely to get swamped by the PCs higher action count.

The other major variation on this theme is where neither side is surprised by the encounter, the PCs have fought there way into the throne room and the BBEG is going to try to escape through the bolthole, fighting a retreat. Here terrain, spells, magic items, and tactics keep the party from being able to pile on him. If the hallway is 5' wide, only one melee fighter can engage, twisty passages prevent the party from using large AOEs for fear of hitting each other, collapsing a tunnel between the lead and following party members may let the BBEG kill one of the PCs before withdrawing.

ET 2: The Defence

This encounter has a lot in common with the fighting retreat escape. Unlike the FR escape, the goal is to make the PCs run away, or at least unable to continue. It is significantly harder to plan, since PCs seldom do as expected :smalleek:, but can be a lot of fun when you pull it off. The first method is to convince the PCs that continuing would be too costly, which may involve a bluff. At lower levels, have the BBEG open with his most potent attacks, one right after another, like he isn't concerned about running out. Ideally, he needs some way to replicate the appearance of his highest level spell slots (or higher) so that the PCs will over-estimate his level. Combined with insidious traps, this can easily prompt the PCs to fall back and change tactics. (My favorite is writing 'I prepared exploding' on a section of the wall, the PCs easily make the save to avoid setting it off (since it's just writing), but now they're expecting lots more similar things). At higher level it doesn't have to be a bluff, there's nothing quite like opening the fight with baleful polymorph, baleful teleport, or Mordenkainen's Disjunction to convince a party to leave. Even at lower levels, targeting the gear wagon, mounts, NPC followers, or other targets of opportunity can convince the party to withdraw and change tactics. (Or can enrage them to come curb stomp you if you do too good a job killing all the squishies).

The second method is to halt PC advance by altering the terrain (collapse tunnel/brige, raise shield, light field on fire). This is greatest if the PCs can see what is about to happen, and can possibly get past it (leaving them trapped inside the complex with the BBEG, more on that later), but not prevent it. This gives them the choice of withdrawing to plan, or possibly turning it into encounter type 3.

ET 3: The Slaughter

This is, by far, the most difficult encounter to 'do right', often resulting in a TPK if you screw it up. It's also extremely rewarding if your players are up for some psych thriller (and okay with TPKs). This encounter pretty much always takes place on the BBEG's home turf, so he has all sorts of home-field advantages. The goal here is to kill the entire party, not in a stand up fight, but like pigs to a slaughter. Obviously, as the DM, you shouldn't be meta-gaming to kill the PCs, so great care must be taken to balance this properly. First come up with a discreet list of resources the BBEG has to prepare the terrain, and then use his character to do the alterations. Hidden blast doors with lethal gas are great, did he install them himself? How good is he at hiding the mechanism so the PCs don't spike the door on the way past? If he doesn't have the engineering skill to do it himself, he had to have paid for the installation, thereby decreasing the resources he could spend on other things. Basically run it like you would if a PC wanted to build their ideal fortress. Within that limit, don't leave something out because 'it would be too likely to cause a TPK', if the BBEG has access to it, he'd use it. You'll be surprised what deadly traps the PCs avoid by luck or paranoia. Once you've got your location figured out, come up with several escape plans for the BBEG. If the PCs come up with some way to trivialize all the defences, he shouldn't stick around. The two basic tactics for the BBEG to take are 'divide and conquer', and 'hit and run'. Often the BBEG will need to use both tactics to emerge victoriously. Dividing the party is a great opener, wait till they split up a bit, close a blast door, engage the wizard up close while his friends can't come to his aid. With luck, by the time the door is opened, you've left a headless wizard minus spellbook in the middle of the room (no speak with dead to figure out what happened). Obviously, this requires a method of moving about undetected. The BBEG then goes and rests for 8 hours to fully recover before going after the next PC that he can isolate. Of course, if you don't engage the party right away, you can let them separate themselves and possibly get a couple of them before they know anything is wrong. Once they do know something is wrong, they'll probably group up, and it's time to engage in hit-and-run tactics. My favorite for this was a were-crocodile druid in a swamp-themed dungeon (basically an abandoned section of sewer) who would use invisibility + stealth to grab a single PC squishy and drag them under (and through the escape tunnel). The goal is to cause severe damage to a PC and then escape without taking any damage in return. Whatever happens, you must not let them rest. You can probably squeeze in some short rests for the BBEG, since they don't know when he'll be back, but the idea is to wear them down until they all collapse.


If you do it right, it should result in several party member deaths, but should be very memorable. For it to be properly balanced, the BBEG should not be higher level than the lowest level PC. Even properly balanced, this type of encounter can easily lead to a TPK, so leaving a way for the party to escape might be prudent.

ET 4: The Surrender

The BBEG's goal here is a negotiated surrender (his or the PCs). Obviously, this could be duplicitous, where he plans to escape later, or he's just the bait (think Avengers). Or it could be what he figures is his best chance for survival, so he'll be looking for escape later, with no current plans to escape. Or it could be a truce to work together against a new foe. Bottom line is the solo encounter with the BBEG doesn't have to involve combat.



Whatever encounter plan you have, have a contingency for when the PCs do trivialize it, because at some point, they will. And remember, the goal isn't to make the BBEG mechanically powerful enough to be as much of a challenge as an army, if you want that kind of challenge, give him an army. The goal is to make the encounter interesting/memorable/world altering/terrifying.

Malachite
2016-03-05, 06:22 PM
My favorite for this was a were-crocodile druid in a swamp-themed dungeon (basically an abandoned section of sewer) who would use invisibility + stealth to grab a single PC squishy and drag them under (and through the escape tunnel).
...
The goal is to make the encounter [...] terrifying.

So... the Killer Croc sequence of Batman: Arkham Asylum? :smallbiggrin:

Sredni Vashtar
2016-03-05, 07:14 PM
I could see this working by having the 'boss' be, in mechanical terms, several creatures that occupy the same space. Maybe the head, two arms, and the body. The body has resistance to all damage unless the other parts are destroyed. Each part has its own initiative and actions, so the boss is 4 monsters mechanically. You could have it move a little bit on any of its turns or just on the body turn.

(maybe not the best example since I have the head being optional, but depends on the boss type)
This idea probably works better for dragons, golems, and very big bosses, as opposed to a random orc chief or wizard. But I guess a wizard could have McGuffin crystals that defend it and attack independently, and those are the 'extra parts'.

The Angry GM had an article about something like this. Where your bandit chief is actually X bandit chiefs stats-wise, and has X turns and X pools of HP and so on, and as the PCs whittle him down, he could lose turns because one (or more) of the chiefs that make him up "die". Obviously, this would require telling the players about this ruling before play so nobody calls foul ("Hey guys, some enemies will have multiple HP pools and get more actions in order for them to be tougher fights. It'll only be used for important and relatively powerful characters though.").

johnbragg
2016-03-05, 07:20 PM
The Angry GM had an article about something like this. Where your bandit chief is actually X bandit chiefs stats-wise, and has X turns and X pools of HP and so on, and as the PCs whittle him down, he could lose turns because one (or more) of the chiefs that make him up "die". Obviously, this would require telling the players about this ruling before play so nobody calls foul ("Hey guys, some enemies will have multiple HP pools and get more actions in order for them to be tougher fights. It'll only be used for important and relatively powerful characters though.").

You don't HAVE to tell them. MAtter of DMing style. "How the hell does he get extra attacks?" "You don't know." You could tell them after the session, explaining how the trick worked, and that it's a metagame construct so that solo boss fights don't get ruined by action economy.

Sredni Vashtar
2016-03-05, 07:22 PM
You don't HAVE to tell them. MAtter of DMing style. "How the hell does he get extra attacks?" "You don't know." You could tell them after the session, explaining how the trick worked, and that it's a metagame construct so that solo boss fights don't get ruined by action economy.

True, you don't have to. Personally, I'd tell them at the onset of the campaign, just to get it out of the way.

lperkins2
2016-03-07, 01:11 AM
So... the Killer Croc sequence of Batman: Arkham Asylum? :smallbiggrin:

I've not heard of that, but after a quick search, yeah looks kinda similar. Of course the druid has spellcasting, a crocodile animal companion, and a summoned crocodile, so you've got 3 to contend with; nothing like being able to grapple 3 party members at a go.