Poll: The Fall of You-Know-Who *spoiler*

[Scientivore]

There's been quite a bit of debate over Miko's alignment (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47277) and destination (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47246). It's gotten bogged down in a fundamental difference of perspective. That difference is epitomized by the way that people see the critical act ofMiko's killing of Shojo.Since we don't have built-in polls any more, I created an offsite poll (http://snappoll.com/poll/201088.php) where you can vote on the alignment of that one specific act.

I apologize if it's too limiting. I wanted to keep it concise and the debate is framed by the context ofMiko's fall from being a paladin.

[LordVader]

If you look at it from Miko's perspective, it's more Chaotic. But from our perspective, IMO, it's both Chaotic and Evil.

[Hel65]

Necessary :thog: option.

[Querzis]

Killing a defenseless old man was obviously evil and I dont get those who said it was just chaotic or neither! Lawfull character act on duty which is obviously what Miko though she was doing. She was doing her duty to the twelve god and she acted as the Jugde, the Jury and the executionner with Shojo, she cant get more lawfull then that. Chaotic character act on a whim and follow their conscience, they dont act for duty and follow what they think the gods wants of them like Miko did.

As for the evil side I just really really dont get how someone could think that act was not evil. And we are not even talking about her alignement, just about that action so could someone please explain to me how the hell could it be a good or neutral action to kill Shojo?

[Scientivore]

Killing a defenseless old man was obviously evil and I dont get those who said it was just chaotic or neither!

I linked to the other two threads for your convenience. Please read them.

Miko herself framed her act in terms of killing the powerful, evil ruler of a major city who has had decades to reshape its laws to serve his wicked designs. No one else agreed with her decision but she clearly believed herself. And, the vigilante killing of an evil ruler for the greater good is textbook CG.

Of course, Shojo wasn't actually evil, so we can talk about whether intentions matter in the D&D alignment system, or just results. I would also like to point out that a formal trial process would've made it clear that many of her assumptions were false, which is why Lawful societies have trials in the first place.

Also, there's nothing Lawful about declaring yourself legislature, police, judge, jury and executioner. Some have presented good arguments that her act was Lawful anyway, but that would be despite her extra-judicial behavior, not because of it.

[....]

It wasn't lawful or good, because the Gods stripped her of her powers.

You can't argue with the gods.

[Erk]

I think Harry will win, but I'm not sure I proscribe to the whole thing about him dying in the process. It's a bit too predictable.

Oh wait, different You-Know-Who?

[Scientivore]

It wasn't lawful or good, because the Gods stripped her of her powers.

You can't argue with the gods.

We can argue with each other over whether CG and LE acts would be enough for the gods to strip a LG paladin of her powers.

[holywhippet]

I don't think she killed Shinjo for alignment reasons. She killed him because she thought he was guilty. It's possible to be good and guilty at the same time. She didn't break her good alignment in doing so because she thought she was acting appropriately. She might have broken her lawful alignment because she was circumventing the normal procedures of justice. However, she felt that expediency was required due to the impending threat.

[evileeyore]

I think Harry will win, but I'm not sure I proscribe to the whole thing about him dying in the process. It's a bit too predictable.

Oh wait, different You-Know-Who?That's where I was thinking this was gonna go...


Look, as a Miko Fan, the act was Evil and a Gross Violation of the Paladin Code. Hence the Fall.

We can argue till judgement day over it being Lawful or not. Sometimes things aren't black and white.

[teratorn]

I think the act was chaotic evil but the intent was lawful good.

We all knew OOTS, and that they were the heros, but this AC stuff is really a big unlikely coincidence. It's very hard to evaluate things because we know too much. Let's see what Miko knew

1) Belkar was a member of OOTS and Belkar was evil
2) Something didn't make sense about all the protection Shojo gave to Belkar
3) OOTS lied about killing Xykon, Xykon was heading for AC.
4) She listened to Shojo saying he lied, and that the trial was fake. He even released a convicted criminal from jail and asked for his advice.

Possibilities

The right one:
It was all a big coincidence, they just happened to arrive at the same time as Xykon. OOTS are not evil despite Belkar. Shojo lied but for a good cause.

The paranoid one:
Everything was planned to bring OOTS and Xykon at that time to AC. They are all in the same team. OOTS and Shojo are there to take the city from within.

Now if 2 were right, she would need to remove Shojo and OOTS as soon as possible, before they could use their influence to silence her. We know she was wrong, but it would have been both lawful and good. Of course there are things she should have considered: why would OOTS resist arrest? Why would they try to escape? She was not thinking properly so her intended lawful good act was in fact chaotic evil, but she didn't plan for a chaotic evil act, it just happened that way.

[TheNovak]

It was definitely Evil. The Lawful/Chaotic debate, however, will never be unanimously decided, as it's based around very basic differences of philosophy. Is intent more important than result? If so, is taking retribution and justice into your own hands Lawful or Chaotic? Or does it depend on your outlook?

Actually, WotC does have an official answer. In Complete Scoundrel, on page 8, right column under "Scoundrels of Any Alignment," Batman is officially and conclusively labelled Lawful Good.

If Batman is Lawful, then so too must be Miko. The prosecution rests.

[Dolohov]

Paladins have the ability to Detect Evil for this specific reason, because killing a good being, even when deluded, is an evil act. She can think whatever she wants, but it was within her power to verify it before acting. Her impulsiveness, in my opinion, makes her act chaotic as well.

[Ampersand]

Look, as a Miko Fan, the act was Evil and a Gross Violation of the Paladin Code. Hence the Fall.

Seconded. With the caveat that no one action can cause an alignment change.


We can argue till judgement day over it being Lawful or not. Sometimes things aren't black and white.

The hyper evolved cockroaches will have a graduate degree that qualifies them to argue this issue. The program has a high attrition rate, though, due to both frustration induced suicides and the fact that brawls regularly break out in the coliseum where the question of Miko's alignment is debated, and very few of them can remember that it doesn't have to be to the death.


Paladins have the ability to Detect Evil for this specific reason, because killing a good being, even when deluded, is an evil act. She can think whatever she wants, but it was within her power to verify it before acting. Her impulsiveness, in my opinion, makes her act chaotic as well.

Detect Evil is not foolproof. It's entirely possible to be working for the cause of capital-E Evil and not be of Evil alignment yourself. Besides, Detect Evil has only two possible readings: "Evil" and "Not Evil." You can't assume that anyone who registers as "Not Evil" is therefore Good. And that's not even considering how stupidly easy any sort of Detection spell is to fool.