Optimal Cantrip choices

[Moosoculars]

Hello,

I am playing a variant human warlock in a pirate setting campaign. I am going to take tome pact at level 3 and am assessing choices for the cantrips. As one of my invocations I have taken is repelling blast as knocking enemies out of the rigging and overboard was too good to pass up "Repel Borders!".

I have taken Eldridge blast and prestidigitation at level 1. Ships biscuits taste better and I can start or put out fires on board ship.

Spells are Burning hands (fiend pact) hex and hellish rebuke.

Will take minor illusion and Mage hand as other warlock cantrips.

I have it down to between four cantrips, but all have good and bad points and I am interested to see if I missed anything and what people think.

At the moment we are just using the phb but could expand to other books in the future.

Guidance.

Pros. Fantastic for every skill check and the dm calls for them lots, climb the rigging, keep balance on deck, swim etc

Cons. it requires concentration and so is incompatible with hex which is my main damage spike.

Shocking grasp.

Pros. Stops Reactions on a hit and you can attack with advantage if the target has metal armour (not too common at sea) allows friends to leave combat. Requires a to hit so allows criticals and will trigger hex. Familiar can deliver this as an attack if needed (Owl + flyby attack)

Cons, repelling blast allows people to leave combat too and it does more damage. If the owl delivers the touch attack to the bbeg as a flyby attack it requires me to ready an action and cast it with my reaction thereby losing concentration on hex. (I will take book of ancient secrets and find familiar as one of the rituals)

Vicious mockery.

Pros. Great little debuf when we fight one bbeg.

Cons. No crit, doesn't trigger hex, damage is a d4. I should probably be dishing the pain.

Shillelagh

Pros. Magic weapon if needed, increased damage die and to hit from using Cha. Bonus action casting. If I can cast this before combat actually starts and then put up hex and dual wield the damage is quite a bit better than eldrich blast before level 5

Cons can only cast on one club at a time so no dual wield shillelaghs. Spell doesn't scale with level so at level 5 it is out performed by eldritch blast.

So which 3 to pick and why. Party cleric has spare the dying and we can fall back on med checks and healing potions if we have to.

In theory there is no limit to the campaign but I doubt I will see level 10

All advice appreciated

[PeteNutButter]

NOTHING is going to compete with Eldritch Blast for combat, pretty much exclusively.

Focus on more out of combat options:

Mending might be good for fixing the ship etc.

Spare the dying to save teammates, that are... dying.

Minor Illusion is great for tricks.

Message could be useful to communicate semi-stealthily with teammates on the other side of the ship.

[Submortimer]

Hello,

I am playing a variant human warlock in a pirate setting campaign. I am going to take tome pact at level 3 and am assessing choices for the cantrips. As one of my invocations I have taken is repelling blast as knocking enemies out of the rigging and overboard was too good to pass up "Repel Borders!".

I have taken Eldridge blast and prestidigitation at level 1. Ships biscuits taste better and I can start or put out fires on board ship.

Spells are Burning hands (fiend pact) hex and hellish rebuke.

Will take minor illusion and Mage hand as other warlock cantrips.

I have it down to between four cantrips, but all have good and bad points and I am interested to see if I missed anything and what people think.

At the moment we are just using the phb but could expand to other books in the future.

Guidance.

Pros. Fantastic for every skill check and the dm calls for them lots, climb the rigging, keep balance on deck, swim etc

Cons. it requires concentration and so is incompatible with hex which is my main damage spike.

Shocking grasp.

Pros. Stops Reactions on a hit and you can attack with advantage if the target has metal armour (not too common at sea) allows friends to leave combat. Requires a to hit so allows criticals and will trigger hex. Familiar can deliver this as an attack if needed (Owl + flyby attack)

Cons, repelling blast allows people to leave combat too and it does more damage. If the owl delivers the touch attack to the bbeg as a flyby attack it requires me to ready an action and cast it with my reaction thereby losing concentration on hex. (I will take book of ancient secrets and find familiar as one of the rituals)

Vicious mockery.

Pros. Great little debuf when we fight one bbeg.

Cons. No crit, doesn't trigger hex, damage is a d4. I should probably be dishing the pain.

Shillelagh

Pros. Magic weapon if needed, increased damage die and to hit from using Cha. Bonus action casting. If I can cast this before combat actually starts and then put up hex and dual wield the damage is quite a bit better than eldrich blast before level 5

Cons can only cast on one club at a time so no dual wield shillelaghs. Spell doesn't scale with level so at level 5 it is out performed by eldritch blast.

So which 3 to pick and why. Party cleric has spare the dying and we can fall back on med checks and healing potions if we have to.

In theory there is no limit to the campaign but I doubt I will see level 10

All advice appreciated

Shillelagh becomes a much more interesting choice when you realize you can cast it and Green-flame blade or Booming Blade in the same round (incidently, both are already warlock cantrips)

For your purposes, I'd use your cantrips to get a good melee backup plan. Take Shillelagh and Green-Flame blade, and then take Shocking Grasp.

On a round you need to melee, you can either shillelagh your quarterstaff and green-flame blade for 1d8+5 to one target and 5 to another mook, or you can Shocking grasp if you feel like you need to get out of dodge.

[8wGremlin]

What level are you at the moment, 2nd?
What Feat did you pick as Vhuman?

You have 3 spells Burning hands, Hex, and Hellish rebuke (note you don't get your pact spells for free, they just get added to the list that you can pick from!) , I'd be careful with fire aboard a ship, as well as being a weaker damage type.

Vicious mockery does trigger Hex (any damage you do does), make sure you use the disadvantage on Wisdom for the hex, as this means you're more likely to get the Vicious mockery damage and thus the disadvantage on next attack.

PeteNutButter is correct - Eldritch Blast will be your go to damage cantrip.

Guidance is always useful, and would be an automatic pick.

[SharkForce]

i would consider the shape water cantrip from the elemental evil supplement if you're allowed to use options from sources other than the PHB. maybe also the one that lets you control fires (prestidigitation can let you start tiny fires... there's a cantrip that can make that tiny fire spread by a 5 foot square every round, or put out fires in a similar area).

[Submortimer]

Vicious mockery does trigger Hex (any damage you do does), make sure you use the disadvantage on Wisdom for the hex, as this means you're more likely to get the Vicious mockery damage and thus the disadvantage on next attack.

This is incorrect on two fronts: One, Hex only deals additional damage when you hit the creature with an attack, not when you damage the creature; two, hex applies disadvantage to ability CHECKS, not SAVES.

[Moosoculars]

This is incorrect on two fronts: One, Hex only deals additional damage when you hit the creature with an attack, not when you damage the creature; two, hex applies disadvantage to ability CHECKS, not SAVES.

Yes submortimer that was my understanding too. Which is why I am not sure about the cantrip.

Interesting additions from other sources people. I feel that the dm may not be quick to add these at the moment.

Currently the character is level 2.
First level feat was actor to boost Cha and for impersonating captains orders when I want stuff done.

I picked burning hands for an Aoo option al low levels. The arms of Hadar (I think that is the right name I don't have my phb to hand) was centred on me and is hard to miss friendlies
Good point not to set the boat on fire though!

[RulesJD]

In order of usefulness:

1. Guidance
2. Minor Illusion
3. Create Bonfire (depending on team if they grapple or not, whether you can set fires with it or not)/Vicious Mockery/Gust (push overboard)

Just take Guidance. It is too good not to. Remember that it can be used for Dexterity checks, aka Initiative (so long as you can cast it beforehand).

Minor Illusion because you can make sights AND sounds with it. Impromptu Message cantrip within 30ft by whispering in ally's ear, distraction for enemies, creating concealment to hide behind, etc.

[Sigreid]

Create Bonfire would be a terrifying weapon in a wooden ships and iron men setting.

[Tanarii]

I'd be careful with fire aboard a shipYeah my first reaction to reading Burning Hands was are you CRAZY?! That seems like a sure-fire way to end up swimming in a hurry. :)

[joaber]

repealling blast when you need they to move away, thron whip when you need they to move front. Of course this is really usefull if your party have lots of effect area spells.

create bonfire is good for the wizard, that has many spells without concentration, you have hex.

[CantigThimble]

repealling blast when you need they to move away, thron whip when you need they to move front. Of course this is really usefull if your party have lots of effect area spells.

create bonfire is good for the wizard, that has many spells without concentration, you have hex.

If someone in your party was planning on using Green Flame Blade regularly this becomes both very effective and a fun bit of tactical thinking.

[8wGremlin]

This is incorrect on two fronts: One, Hex only deals additional damage when you hit the creature with an attack, not when you damage the creature; two, hex applies disadvantage to ability CHECKS, not SAVES.

Thank you for clearing that up - I was wrong.

[Sigreid]

repealling blast when you need they to move away, thron whip when you need they to move front.

Repelling blast could be amazing on a ship. Who cares if you kill them with the attack role? If you knock them off the ship, most people are as good as dead anyway.

[joaber]

Repelling blast could be amazing on a ship. Who cares if you kill them with the attack role? If you knock them off the ship, most people are as good as dead anyway.

I know, but he already get that, and will be the cantrip he'll use most. Still, in some cases, thorn whip will do the other part, just imagine the other ship pairing and you dragging the enemies to the sea.
Or like I said, if your party have web, entangle, spike growth, grease, moonbeam, or any other control/damage area.

And thorn whip work with hex.

[Spectre9000]

In a pirate campaign, I definitely have to go with Shape Water. You can, as a cantrip, create a 5 foot cube of ice. Instant raft anyone?

Another one would be Control Flames. Fire on the ship? Instant extinguish, or make it bigger to engulf a ship faster.

Gust isn't bad either. 5 foot push strength save against your spell dc, which could be the difference for that person between on the ship, and off.

Mending can repair a hole in your ship, though the 1 minute cast time might be enough for it to sink while you're casting it.

Minor Illusion can be fun. You can make a railing appear where there isn't; make a plank extend out, where there isn't one. Make a rope dangle just off the side, so when they go to grab for it, they reach too far and fall off the ship; etc.

Prestidigitation perhaps, given that it can create a nonmagical trinket, could create a compass? Plus it allows you to clean up others; things can get pretty rank out at sea and pirates have never been known to be the cleanliest of people.

Produce Flame combines the Light cantrip and Fire Bolt, and could be useful if you're low on cantrip slots and still wanna be sure you can hurl fire at a sail.

Thaumaturgy has a lot of fun potential as sailors are known to be superstitious.

Thorn Whip can be used to pull people overboard as well, or perhaps catch someone falling overboard.

Lightning Lure is another cantrip that allows you to pull people overboard or catch people potentially and deals more damage (and lightning at that).

Vicious Mockery I think fits right in, as pirates are constantly throwing insults and slurs at one another. This just makes it deal damage lol.



From here, there's the other obvious contenders like Eldritch Blast which will be your de facto damaging cantrip.

[MeeposFire]

Personally I think it is too easy to go overboard with taking too many offensive cantrips. You really only need two. One being eldritch blast and the other you might want is something you can use when somebody is in melee range of you. This second one can be avoided if you take crossbow expert (in which case the only things EB is not good for are magic resistant creatures, which no other cantrip is actually good for since you lack extra attack, and force resistant/immune creatures which are so very rare).

Shillelagh is not worth it to me. It gives you a slight bonus when making your single weapon attack. You should have a decent dex score for the rare situation you need to make a weapon attack so pick a dagger or similar. Shocking grasp would be better for you in the long run.

Personally I think utility is far more useful for you outside of those 1-2 attack cantrips. OF those I actually think those that give you more abilities (such as those that affect fire, water, or illusions) are more important than slightly bigger numbers (such as guidance).

[Moosoculars]

Repelling blast could be amazing on a ship. Who cares if you kill them with the attack role? If you knock them off the ship, most people are as good as dead anyway.

Thanks. That was the whole reason for going warlock. Won't always work but will be very effective when it does work. It was either that or a grappler.

[Moosoculars]

A quick question on a shocking grasp (or other touch spells delivered by a familiar) it says on pg 240 in the find familiar spell

Your familiar can deliver the spell as if it had cast the spell.

So if you are level 5 and delivering a 2d8 shocking grasp is that actually only 1d8 because the cantrip functions as if the familiar cast the spell? Also I presume that this would not trigger hex as I did not attack, the familar did.

Thanks for the suggestions so far

Green flame blade would stop me dual wielding (no attack action so no off hand bonus attack) that stops me triggering hex a second time if I hit.

What could you do with shape water other than an ice raft (at which point we are probably screwed anyway) I can't see that it helps you swim faster and it takes an action to cast so you can't change water flows to help. The animate water can't attack (as far as I can see) there are creative Rp uses sure but I could probably do all that and more with minor illusion.

Create bonfire has some nice applications. Perhaps a stupid question but the spell doesn't say that it ignites flammable materials in the area nor needs them. i suppose this is simply fire damage to the floor which should ignite from a reasonable interpretation. I presume a ships deck would be the "ground"

Control flames seems great for ship combat and is one to consider. As is thorn whip but the range at 30ft is a little small.

I do think guidance is a guaranteed pick and I hadn't realised that it could be used on initiative so thanks for that rulesjd.

[ravenkith]

A quick question on a shocking grasp (or other touch spells delivered by a familiar) it says on pg 240 in the find familiar spell

As is thorn whip but the range at 30ft is a little small.



Spell sniper makes it 60ft?

[Sigreid]

Create bonfire should be used to light the rigging, sails, and if you see it the tar used to patch leaks should go up a treat.

[joaber]

Spell sniper makes it 60ft?

yes it does

[Joe the Rat]

Whether through cantrip or spell, make sure you have one or two means of injury that do not rely on attack rolls. Extra damage is nice, but if it's too hard to land the blow, you get nothing.

This is why I like Vicious Mockery - A high AC target is typically quick (high Dex), or tough (or built for melee & armored - High Con). Wisdom Saves may make for an easier injury. Plus the damage is Psychic, which almost nothing is immune to. Given the niche value, you may be better off looking for a similar spell, so you can swap it out as you level up if you find you never need it.

If nobody else can do it, having an on-demand fire attack is handy for dealing with all manner of regenerators. You can get the same effect (and prevent other recovery) through chill touch, but this may not work against some undead.

[Toadkiller]

Thoughts having played tome:

- Hex gets dull. E blast + hex every round just doesn't make it for me. I still use it some, but not every fight. Also with repelling blast- if you knock them in the water the extra d6 isn't very meaningful. So don't shy away from other concentration options.

- having a wide variety of cantrips helps make up for the limited spell slots. Agree with above, more damage isn't the best place to go. That said, shillelagh and a SCAG cantrips could be handy in the tight quarters on the ship.

- shape water might be able to plug holes in the hull. Ask your DM.

- a one level dip into sorcerer (I picked favored soul) is nice. You get even more cantrips and two first level slots. Use them for hex (when you use it) and other ok-at-low-level spells. It opened my character up quite a bit. Favored soul gave me shields and medium armor, which may be less useful for you.

[SharkForce]

if you're dipping sorcerer, it's hard to not dip 3 levels of sorcerer for anything you want to play as a caster. metamagic is just an amazing ability. for a seafaring campaign, you can make great use of subtle spell (so you can cast underwater). but really almost any metamagic can be handy.