Sneak Attack (flavor)

[Skjaldbakka]

I am trying to increase my narrative talents, and would like some input:

How would you describe a sneak attack? To start, assume an unarmored, unarmed unaware opponent, struck:

With a projectile weapon?
With a thrown spear-like weapon?
With a thrown dagger-like weapon?
With a thrown bludgeoning weapon?
With an axe-like weapon?
With a sword-like weapon?
With a Ray?
With a touch attack?
With a club-like weapon?
With a greataxe?

With a (insert what you like to use here)?

I am particularly interested in Where you tend to hit with a sneak attack? Is it all kidney shots?

[Matthew]

What context are you looking for? I think the description is going to turn rather heavily on whether the target is reduced to -1 Hit Points or not.

[Skjaldbakka]

What context are you looking for? I think the description is going to turn rather heavily on whether the target is reduced to -1 Hit Points or not.

Assume the target is severely wounded, but not dropped, to start with.

[Yechezkiel]

How would you describe a sneak attack? To start, assume an unarmored, unarmed opponent, struck:



With a projectile weapon? Joints, neck, hands or feet.
With a thrown spear-like weapon? Back, shoulderblades.
With a thrown dagger-like weapon? Joints, neck, hands or feet.
With a thrown bludgeoning weapon? Forehead.
With an axe-like weapon? Thighs, head, back.
With a sword-like weapon? Guts, chest.
With a Ray? Face.
With a touch attack? Face.
With a club-like weapon? Skull, knees.
With a greataxe? Less of where it hits and more how big the opening is.

With a (insert what you like to use here)?
Would I, could I, Sneak Attack with a shoe? Would I, could I, Sneak Attack you?

[Fax Celestis]

Would I, could I, Sneak Attack with a shoe? Would I, could I, Sneak Attack you?

Honestly, who throws a shoe?

[Jannex]

I am trying to increase my narrative talents, and would like some input:

How would you describe a sneak attack? To start, assume an unarmored, unarmed opponent, struck:

With a projectile weapon?
With a thrown spear-like weapon?
With a thrown dagger-like weapon?
With a thrown bludgeoning weapon?
With an axe-like weapon?
With a sword-like weapon?
With a Ray?
With a touch attack?
With a club-like weapon?
With a greataxe?

With a (insert what you like to use here)?

I am particularly interested in Where you tend to hit with a sneak attack? Is it all kidney shots?

As a general rule, sneak attack represents striking a particularly vulnerable point--an artery, a nerve cluster, a hamstring, a joint, the head, etc. For specifics...

A projectile weapon: An eye, a lung (arrow/bolt), the head (sling bullet/rock)

A thrown spear-like weapon: A lung, a shoulder (impeding the use of the arm), a thigh (impeding the use of the leg)

A thrown dagger-like weapon: Any artery, any ligament/tendon that hinders the use of a limb

A thrown bludgeoning weapon: The head, any major joint

An axe-like weapon: The shoulder/neck (break collarbone), severing extremities (like fingers)

A sword-like weapon: Any artery, a stab to the vitals, esp. the gut (internal bleeding)

A ray: The mage is able to channel an especially powerful surge of magic

A touch attack: (depends on the type of attack)

A club-like weapon: The head, any major bone fracture, a crushed joint (esp. the knee)

A greataxe: Any major bone fracture, severed limbs or extremities, the shoulder/neck

[Atanuero]

However, you want to avoid saying things like 'Your morningstar hits the man's forehead with a resounding blow. He staggers a bit, but then shrugs it off and swings a weapon at you.'

The reason being, although it's true that your sneak attack may have hurt them severely, you don't want to seem like 'you hit him really hard, but it's ok, he just bounces back from the blow that should send him to a hospital'. A couple of lines like that and the exciting, epic feel of the combat is...gone.

For the same reason, 'Your arrow strikes him through the heart' in an inapplicable sentence in every situation where the thing being attacked didn't just drop to 0 or to -1 hp. Because even the least attentive player will realize that you just told them 'The enemy is fighting you despite the obvious arrow through his heart and out his back'.

[Shoyliguad]

When you sneak attack someone, it doesn't have to be a killing blow but maybe in a place where it would hurt, ALOT, like the groin.

[Yechezkiel]

When you sneak attack someone, it doesn't have to be a killing blow but maybe in a place where it would hurt, ALOT, like the groin.

I personally resist the urge to make it comical. You want the players remembering the rogue can murder people, not that they were laughing every time the rogue tried to.

[Jack_Simth]

Well... you don't need the flavor for every single blow, usually. If the character only gets a hit in every other round, then yes, it's needed. Otherwise, not so much.

Deathblows are easiest - doesn't too much matter what it is, provided it's fatal and sneaky (cut throat, crushed layrnix, arrow through the eye, Flask of Alchemist's Fire down the throat, and so on). I once described a two-hit sneak attack as opening up the beholder's skull and pulling it's brain out through it's expanded ear (it was very, very dead after those particular two hits in the same turn - and only the rogue had done damage).

It's the ones that don't kill that are tough - you need to get across that it was an expert blow, yet at the same time, not in any way that leaves the opponent crippled. If you hamstring him, he loses his mobility.... which isn't reflected by default D&D mechanics (although it's a good one if the Rogue picks that nifty class feature that deals Strength damage on a successful Sneak Attack...). Likewise, Dazed and Stunned are both D&D mechanical conditions that are not reflected by HP loss; you need to avoid such terms when you're not applying them. Eye damage should blind an opponent, and so on.

Now, if the rogue sticks his rapier into the opponent, and there's a wet chunk of lettuce stuck to it when it comes back out (You didn't chew your last meal properly? For shame!) it's obvious he hit the stomach, but it's not something that's instantly fatal (which is part of why kidneys are popular targets - they're well known internal organs that aren't an immediate need - that and the backstab mechanics from previous editions). Veins and arteries (Blood spurts a foot from the wound as you retract the blade) are handy (blood loss isn't immediately fatal, but definatly represents a severe loss of vitality) but at the same time, you don't want anyone confusing it with the Con damage from a Wounding weapon.

It's easier for slashing/piercing weapons like swords or rapiers; flavor-wise, they're more precision-compatible (and Sneak Attack is partially defined as precision damage) than are clubs and hammers, even though mechanically there's no difference.

Hmm... ramble on!

[Jannex]

I personally resist the urge to make it comical. You want the players remembering the rogue can murder people, not that they were laughing every time the rogue tried to.

A strike to the groin doesn't have to be comical (although, this does depend on the maturity of your players). There are two very major arteries running down into the legs there, so slashing weapons are particularly effective for such strikes. A deft slash to the groin might make your players wince for a moment... until you describe the blood that spreads rapidly out over the victim's clothes, dripping wetly to the ground as one of his legs gives out. A hit to the femoral artery is a big deal, and it has nothing to do with "naughty bits."

@Jack_Smith: That's what I see as part of the trouble with the way D&D has rules for every minor aspect of combat; it gets in the way of description and narrative. IMO, a rogue shouldn't need a feat to hamstring an opponent, or stagger him with a blow to the head, or need a Wounding weapon to cause major bleeding. That, to me, is what Sneak Attack means: you're hitting a vital area on your opponent. But, that's just my feeling on the matter.

[SurlySeraph]

With a projectile weapon? For lethal, it pierces the target's throat/ goes through his back and into his heart. For nonlethal, it sticks in the target's back or shoulder before he grunts and pulls it out.
With a thrown spear-like weapon? For lethal, it impales the target. For nonlethal, it grazes one of his limbs.
With a thrown dagger-like weapon? For lethal, it sticks in his skull. For nonlethal, it hits his shoulder and then falls out of the wound it made.
With a thrown bludgeoning weapon? For lethal, the target immediately falls straight down and lies still, perhaps with a puddle of blood forming under his head or his skull visibly deformed. For nonlethal, the target staggers before recovering his balance and turning around.
With an axe-like weapon? For lethal, Swish! Head off! or cleave his skull in half. For nonlethal, you cut into the targets back; he yelps in pain and pulls forward to get the axe out of the wound before turning to face you.
With a sword-like weapon? For lethal, you either cut his throat or impale him Aeris-style. For nonlethal, you stab him in one side of the back; he screams, then pushes the sword back out of him and turns around.
With a Ray? For lethal, he's instantly fried/ flash-frozen/ whatever by whatever kind of energy you hit him with. For nonlethal, he gasps and steam rises from the wound on his back or leg before he turns to face you.
With a touch attack? If it's lethal and non-magical, you snap his neck. Non-lethal and non-magical, you try to strangle him but he pulls free before he's seriously hurt, and slowly recovers his breath. For lethal and magical, he jerks and his body folds around where you touched him before he slumps to the ground. Either that or he just falls straight back. For nonlethal, he screams and jerks whatever part of his body you touched away from you as if you'd jabbed him with a tack.
With a club-like weapon? For lethal, you cave in his skull with a single blow. For nonlethal, you bang hard against his head but he rolls with the blow and recovers.
With a greataxe? For lethal, you cut him in half horizontally. For nonlethal, you take a mighty swing but miss almost completely, just cutting part of the skin from his arm.

Why yes, this kind of thing does come up a lot in my games.

[Gerrtt]

My favorite description of a sneat attack comes from the last game I DMed.

Clive, the rogue, won initiative against a Bad guy and his henchman. Because nobody had acted yet, he decided he could probably kill the henchman with a good sneak charge. So he charges, hits, and it's a sneak attack so he gets bonus damage. My description of the event, after he rolled his damage and did enough to leave the villian in a pile of pulpy goop:

"You charge at the man on the left with your dagger in hand. You leap from about 5 feet away and land on his chest (which is quite surprising to him) and your knife goes deep between his neck and shoulder blades. He instantly falls limp and you ride his corpse to the ground. Would you like to make a tumble check to see if you do an awesome flip at the end while you are at it?"

He declined.

[Jannex]

He instantly falls limp and you ride his corpse to the ground. Would you like to make a tumble check to see if you do an awesome flip at the end while you are at it?"

He declined.

Aw. I'd totally have gone for the Tumble check. :smallbiggrin:

[Jeggred Von]

How would you describe a sneak attack? To start, assume an unarmored, unarmed opponent, struck:

With a projectile weapon? As the [object] flie through the air, the unsuspecting guard merely turns away from the oncoming object, striking him in the rear shoulderblade. (if it kills,) The object seemed to stop the man's heard, dropping him and his free falling weapon to the ground (non lethal) The object hit a never, sutting off bloodflow to the guard's lung temporarily, dropping him to the ground.

With a thrown spear-like weapon? From your vantage point, you see the guard turn away from you, you throw the spear as watch as it hurls through the air. THe guard seems to pause as if hearig something, and turns right into it, burying itself into his abdomen, below his ribs. The force of the shot, plus the suprise of the attack taking the man from his feet, throwing him with a moan to the ground. (or scream...your choice)

With a thrown dagger-like weapon? same above, just not the throwing to the ground part, unless it's smaller than human.

With a thrown bludgeoning weapon?You watch as the weapon flies end over end, soaring through the air. It hones in your target, bearing down on him. As it hits the guard, a sickening crack is heard through his armor and flesh, his backbone justs from under his armor at a strange angle. The guard drops with silenced screams and wide eyes.

With an axe-like weapon? You slowly move your arm back moving inch by inch until your arm and axe are in place, with blinding speed, you swing the axe around bringing his straight down into the guard's unsuspecting shoulderblade and collarbone. His eyes go waide and his breath gets caught in his throat.

With a sword-like weapon? Your left hand grasps your scabbard as your eyes look to the guard, waiting. THe unsuspecting man turns his back to you as he begins to head away from you. Your right hand shoots across your body, yanking te blade free from the scabbard. As the stel escapes it's leather home, the edge cuts deep between the guard's plates in his armor Sinking deep as you feel the steel slice and rend flesh and muscle. Witha surpised look, the guard yelps and turns to you, wide eyed with suprise.


With a Ray? see above.....

With a touch attack? You reach out with blazing speed, grasping the guard in the face. The magical words erupt from your mouth before the guard can react as the magic of the (??) spell hit him square in the face. His hands weakly claw at your face, as he tries to free himself before the (??) spell goes off.

With a club-like weapon? see above for the bludgeoning...

With a greataxe?see above for sword object...

[Skjaldbakka]

Go rogue's with throw everything!

[Dan_Hemmens]

@Jack_Smith: That's what I see as part of the trouble with the way D&D has rules for every minor aspect of combat; it gets in the way of description and narrative. IMO, a rogue shouldn't need a feat to hamstring an opponent, or stagger him with a blow to the head, or need a Wounding weapon to cause major bleeding. That, to me, is what Sneak Attack means: you're hitting a vital area on your opponent. But, that's just my feeling on the matter.

The problem is, none of those effects are adequately modelled by a Sneak Attack. A Sneak Attack just does extra damage.

It's not like a Rogue can say "yes! Sneak attack for 38 damage, I've severed his femoral artery. Now I back off for a couple of rounds and watch him bleed to death."

A sneak attack, like any other hit in D&D that doesn't kill you, does not inconvenience you in any way. It's like the example an earlier poster gave about somebody getting smacked in the face with a morningstar.

[Jannex]

The problem is, none of those effects are adequately modelled by a Sneak Attack. A Sneak Attack just does extra damage.

It's not like a Rogue can say "yes! Sneak attack for 38 damage, I've severed his femoral artery. Now I back off for a couple of rounds and watch him bleed to death."

A sneak attack, like any other hit in D&D that doesn't kill you, does not inconvenience you in any way. It's like the example an earlier poster gave about somebody getting smacked in the face with a morningstar.

Ultimately, what you're discussing is just another component of my complaint about the D&D combat system. I don't like hit points. The fact that you can lose as many hit points as you want (except for that last one) and be perfectly fine and not impeded in any fashion, strikes me as frustrating and nonsensical--and, from my perspective, it breaks suspension of disbelief when (like in this thread) you attempt to describe the action of combat. So yes, you have discovered the crux of the problem.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

... I don't like hit points. The fact that you can lose as many hit points as you want (except for that last one) and be perfectly fine and not impeded in any fashion, strikes me as frustrating and nonsensical-- ...

The Clobbered variant (DMG page 27) tries to remedy that (somewhat), But you'd probably want an expansion of that....

[Matthew]

I don't really find that it breaks suspension of disbelief. It only does if the DM describes losing Hit Points as actual injury. If you think of Hit Points as a buffer zone between your Character and injury it's easier to conceptualise them. In the absence of Fate Points and other such things, they're pretty much the only thing preventing realistic combat killing you're Character (ala War Hammer Fantasy and so on). Some folks have a problem with the Healing Spells when thinking about Hit Points this way round, but I actually find it easier to think about Healing Magic this way, rather than closing up wounds and healing broken bones, it restores in a more spiritual manner. Of course, this doesn't quite work out when Characters fall below 0 Hit Points, but it doesn't place too great a strain on suspension of disbelief either.