Hunter build sanity check

[Seliven]

Hello playgrounders,

I have recently read up on the Hunter and wanted to try my hand at one. I have taken the foundation from this mini guide: davidvs .net/hobbies/pathfinder-teampet.shtml and build on it. The only diffrence being paired opportunist instead of escape route. If I need to avoid AoOs I can simply swap in escape route with the hunter teamwork feat ability.
For race I was thinking half-orc with sacred tattoo and Shaman's Apprentice since I will not be intimidating anyone and sacred tattoo is great with fate's favored. The second trait will be tusked which seems even more awesome if you combine it with snapping flank (d20pfsrd .com/feats/combat-feats/snapping-flank-combat-teamwork). Sadly this requires a BAB of +9 so I will have to wait for level 12.
To maximize my shared AoOs I will be taking combat reflexes at level 5 and broken wing gambit at level 6.
I am not certain if what I plan next is viable: For my normal feats at level 7 and 9 I want to take blind-fight and moonlight stalker. I will probably get my concealment from a Mistmail which usually lasts all day. This means I will only get power attack at level 11 which seems really late. Followed by snapping flank at level 12.
Should I delay blind-fight and moonlight stalker so I get power attack 4 levels earlier? Are there other/better options for concealment other than mistmail? Sadly I did not see any Spells on the ranger and druid lists that give concealment. I still need to select Spells and I wonder if there are better ways to get flight other than Air Walk at level 10.
Sadly I am a little MAD. I need Strength for damage, wisdom for casting, At least 13 int for combat expertise and moonlight stalker, and some Dex for combat expertise. With 20 point buy I will probably go for this:

Str 15+2(Half-orc bonus)
Con 12
Dex 14
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 7

All stat increases go to Strength

Feats:
1)combat expertise
2)outflank
3)pack flanking
3t)paired opportunist
5)combat reflexes
6t)broken wing gambit
7)blind-fight
9)moonlight stalker
9t)precise strike
11)power attack
12t)snapping flank

Gear:
I will probably get a belt of giant strength and a headband of wisdom. Animal Focus might help with strength but Having a belt makes me mor flexible. I can get evasion and from level 8 onward I can get a dex bonus for more AC and AoOs. I will be using a Keen fortuitous Falchion so My crits trigger three additional attacks (one from my companion due to outflank and two from me with paired opportunists and fortuitous). The Mistmail mentioned above for concealment to trigger moonlight stalker. A Jingasa of the Fortunate soldier for a +2 Luck bonus to AC and the ability to negate one sneak attack. A cloak of resistance to add to my nice saves and an amulet of mighty fists to aid my animal companion.

Animal Companion: Will probably be a Big Cat. from level 3 onward I will be standing next to it pretty much all the time for outflank/pack flanking/paired opportunists. From level 7 onward I will be riding it to glory. The Companions Feats will be: Armor proficiency, light, power attack, combat reflexes, blind-fight (goes well with scent) and improved natural attack(Bite)(goes well with AoOs and snapping Flank). What Abilities should an Amulet of mighty fists grant my companion(Magic Fang(,greater) is a given)? Is giving my companion its own mistmail worth it?

Skills: Handle animal, Heal/Accrobatics(unsure, depends on the group I am with), Knowledge Nature, Perception, Ride, Stealth, Survival and Bluff for the first 5 levels followed by knowledge Dungeoneering (maybe throw in a rank of Knowledge Geography in there somewhere).

Possible Attacks at level 12:
Falchion (probably +2): 9 bab + 7 strength (20 base with +4 from belt/focus) +2 ehancment = 18/13
Bite secondary: 9 bab + 7 strength = 11
Bite Primary (swift action): 9 bab + 7 strength = 16

Damage at level 12:
Falchion (still probalby +2): 2d4 + 10 Str + 2 enhancement (+ 2 twilight stalker + 9 power attack) = 2d4 + 12/14/21/23
Bite secondary: 1d4 + 3 Str (+ 2 twilight stalker + 3 power attack) = 1d4 + 3/5/6/8
Bite Primary (swift action): 1d4 + 10 Str (+ 2 twilight stalker + 9power attack) = 1d4 + 10/12/19/21

conditional boni(bonuses?):
outflank +4 hit(nearly always from level 3 onward, even more likely once the cat grows to large)
moonlight stalker +2 hit and damage. depending on how well mistmail works or what other sources I can find hopefully always on (except against anything that does not care about concealment)

The animal companion will get the swift action bite attack aswell. It will probably get a Strength bonus from the first focus. not sure whar else to do with the other focus. (more dex? more speed?)

Questions Summary:
Should I delay blind-fight and moonlight stalker so I get power attack 4 levels earlier?
Are there other/better options for concealment other than mistmail?
What Spells should I pick?
Is there some nice gear I could get for me or my animal companion?
What Abilities should an Amulet of mighty fists grant my companion(Magic Fang(,greater) is a given)? fortuitous? corosive/freezing/flaming?
When I use My Swift action for a Bite with Snapping Flank does my character add 1.5 times his strenght bonus as it is his only natural attack?
When I ride my charging animal companion: Do the swift bite actions get the charge bonus? my guess is no.
Does everything work the way I think it does?
Am I a viable Melee character at most levels?
Is there a Guide with fully fleshed out Hunter builds? I looked and did not find any.
Going forward. Should I pick up Mounted combat, trick riding and mounted skrimisher? What about Lunge for up to 4 AoOs?
Can anyone point me at a way to make a nice Table of my build? Maybe I can figure that out..

Also: Hello, long time lurker, first time poster. I had Links to pretty much everything in my post.. sadly I need 10 posts to post links..

[Florian]

Hm.... Actually, I´m not too convinced. It reads a bit like overcomplicating things that can be done straight and easy.
For example, the whole Moonlight Stalker chain has such a high opportunity cost, it is not worth it, unless you switch from H-Orc to Elf to reduce your base PB costs for DEX and INT. Even then, you´re wasting feats. This is an offensive class, so Combat Expertise doesn´t do anything for you, and as you can cast druid spells, darkness and vision are no real obstacles, so Blind Fight is wasted, too.
Gaining a Bite attack is swell, but only is really effective on a full attack. This build has no option to pounce, so outside of pure DPR calculations, that won´t come into play more than 50% of the actual combat rounds (unless your combat is very static). If you still want to go that route, then it´s rather a Ragebred than a H-Orc for the sheer number of natural attacks you can pull of.

[Seliven]

Hm.... Actually, I´m not too convinced. It reads a bit like overcomplicating things that can be done straight and easy.
For example, the whole Moonlight Stalker chain has such a high opportunity cost, it is not worth it, unless you switch from H-Orc to Elf to reduce your base PB costs for DEX and INT. Even then, you´re wasting feats. This is an offensive class, so Combat Expertise doesn´t do anything for you, and as you can cast druid spells, darkness and vision are no real obstacles, so Blind Fight is wasted, too.
Gaining a Bite attack is swell, but only is really effective on a full attack. This build has no option to pounce, so outside of pure DPR calculations, that won´t come into play more than 50% of the actual combat rounds (unless your combat is very static). If you still want to go that route, then it´s rather a Ragebred than a H-Orc for the sheer number of natural attacks you can pull of.

Combat expertise ist required for Pack Flanking. I need it so I always get the bonus from outflank when riding my tiger. Said Tiger also has the ability to pounce (from level 7 onward) and will probably be dealing most of my damage. In rounds where I can not full attack I can cast Ranger or Druid spells to support the party or controll enemies. I still need to pick spells though. I need a Bite Attack to qualify for Snapping Flank at 12th level so that I and my Animal companion can both Bite at as a swift action. I should Proably take power attack before Blind-fight (which helps against invisible enemies. more so with scent) and moonlight stalker. If you think these two feats are not worth it what would you suggest instead? Maybe there are usefull Teamwork Feats?

The Ragebred is interesting but probably deals less damage. To get three natural attack I would need the feat extra feature which requires 13 con. which makes me even madder (I suspect the +2con from shifting does not count). I can just take Snapping Flank for the same amount of addition natural attacks (2 from me 1 from my companion two of those as swift actions) that deal more damage(except for the secondary bite in a full attack).
Going Elf instead of half-orc would lose me a +2 bonus on all saves, my bite attack and the ability points I get from saving on Dex and Int would go right into Strength and possibly con. That probably leaves me at a net loss since Str is mor expensive than Dex or Int. I could probably live with 2 points less Dex as animal focus can help with that but I can't really use these 3 points.

Edit: Also, heaps of AoOs for me and my companion. So Pounce is less relevant on my Character.

Edit 2: I just realized that with outflank crits from my AoOs provoke AoOs from both me and my companion.. it has AoOs all the way down..

[Geddy2112]

A pounce in and AoO machine build is solid for a hunter. I am a particular fan of the lance+spirited charge pouncing tiger where you pounce/charge and utterly annihilate a target each round. However, you can do serious work, just aim to jump into the fray and get to places where AoO's will be likely. Spellcasters are key targets of course.

Stats: Look good, consider trying to boost dex over strength with animal aspect/enhancements for more AoO and AC.

Feats:I second dropping moonlight stalker, just because the prerequisites are pretty steep, the benefits are minor, and the bonus is conditional. You NEED power attack asap, it is not negotiable. Power attack will do tons more damage than moonlight stalker without any prerequs, and it grows old in style. Lunge is cool but not a requirement.Blind fight is an okay feat if you have an extra to burn, but hunters can get blindsight through magic, or otherwise negate invisibility/displacement/that stuff.Precise strike is a bit meh at higher levels, but good for a free teamwork feat. Mounted combat is great, and eventually you want/need mounted skirmisher. Since you have Summon nature's ally spells, might consider spell focus:conjuration and then augment summons as well.

Gear: I think belt of dex is better than strength here, since your build is about quantity of swings over quality.Obviously you can use animal aspect as needed here. Mistmail is decent once you can afford it, otherwise celestial chainmail is pretty much the best light. Chain shirt/mithral chain shirt until then. Get a wand of cure light wounds so you never need to prepare a heal spell-between that and heal skill you should not need anything else out of combat for the campaign. And a handy haversack is useful for all characters. Get a ranged weapon, even if it is just a crossbow. Eventually you want a compound shortbow, but have something for when you have a flying enemy ruining your sexy charge/AoO fantasies. Lesser restoration is also a good wand, as you don't want it to eat a spell known but will need it often.

Animal: Big cat is great, mainly for pounce. Permanent magic attacks is a top priority, moreso than armor. Blind fight is slightly better here since it is harder to give the companion powers. Remember that at high level you can use aspect of the bat to get blindsense to you and the companion.

Skills: handle animal,Nature, perception, ride, and stealth are the five you need to max. You have 8 per level before favored class bonus, so throw at least 1 rank into every other class skill. Since you are stuck with combat expertise, take three ranks in acrobatics for the +1 to AC when fighting defensively(it is likely you are doing both if you are desperate to not be hit, and then you just critfish. Even with negatives, a 15-20 should usually hit and that is crit range on your weapon...). Spellcraft is something you can grab if nobody else is good at it.

Questions:
Should I delay blind-fight and moonlight stalker so I get power attack 4 levels earlier?-Yes, don't even bother with those.
Are there other/better options for concealment other than mistmail?-Yes, blur/displacement and other stuff from your friendly arcane caster.
What Abilities should an Amulet of mighty fists grant my companion-magic fang, and then just sheer power to overcome DR's

Spells: A note on spells-since you are going for minimum wisdom to be able to cast, don't pick things with DC's unless they have other good effects. Also remember that you get all the summon nature's ally spells for free when you hit that spell level.

Level 0-Detect magic, create water, guidance(spam it out of combat on skill checks), light, mending, detect poison
Level 1-Lead blades, heightened awareness, magic fang(forget once you get an amulet for kitty), faerie fire(negate invisibility and concealment) the rest is whatever is utility. I personally like read weather if I can just have an extra spell.
Level 2-Barkskin(unless you have good sources of amulets of natural armor), carry companion (if you need to hide your cat in cities)fog cloud and/or cloud of seasickness, resist and/or protection from energy
Level 3-Ash storm or sleet storm, greater magic fang(until you get an item for it), fickle winds, strong jaw
Level 4-dispel magic, animal growth, FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT, nondetection(maybe), echolocation(no need for blind fight)
5-control winds,hungry earth, wall of thorns, death ward
6-antilife shell, greater black tentacles, greater dispel magic, find the path(sometimes banned), move earth, wall of stone

Overall it should be fine-hunter is a strong tier 3 class, so unless your DM is a killer or the rest of the party is T1 godcasting you should be good.

[Kurald Galain]

In addition to what's already said about moonlight stalker, dropping it allows you to drop your intelligence and increase con and/or str.

You should take broken wing before paired opp, and power attack before pack flanking, imho.

[Seliven]

A pounce in and AoO machine build is solid for a hunter. I am a particular fan of the lance+spirited charge pouncing tiger where you pounce/charge and utterly annihilate a target each round. However, you can do serious work, just aim to jump into the fray and get to places where AoO's will be likely. Spellcasters are key targets of course.

Yes I like spirited charge aswell. Though I would lose on 25%/20% crit chance which would cost me lots of AoOs in the long run. If I were slightly less feat starved I would consider pulling it off with quick draw..


Stats: Look good, consider trying to boost dex over strength with animal aspect/enhancements for more AoO and AC.

The Plan is to use animal focus to get a bonus to dex and my amount of AoOs. I am not sure how often my AoOs will trigger though. at level 12 I will have 5 AoOs per round. Is this enough? If it isn't increasing Dex certainly seems like a good idea.


Feats:I second dropping moonlight stalker, just because the prerequisites are pretty steep, the benefits are minor, and the bonus is conditional. You NEED power attack asap, it is not negotiable. Power attack will do tons more damage than moonlight stalker without any prerequs, and it grows old in style. Lunge is cool but not a requirement.Blind fight is an okay feat if you have an extra to burn, but hunters can get blindsight through magic, or otherwise negate invisibility/displacement/that stuff.Precise strike is a bit meh at higher levels, but good for a free teamwork feat. Mounted combat is great, and eventually you want/need mounted skirmisher. Since you have Summon nature's ally spells, might consider spell focus:conjuration and then augment summons as well.

Yeah I will probably get Power Attack at level 7. I forgott about blind sight completely.. this makes blind-fight a complete tax for moonlight stalker. Everything else for Moonlight Stalker is required by something else in the build. I need 13 Int for combat expertise which I in turn need for pack flanking (which needs 13 int itself). I need 5 Ranks in Bluff for broken wing Gambit. Together these two things pretty much make the build. This is what got me interested in Moonlight Stalker in the first place. With mistmail I can get concealment almost constantly which makes Moonlight stalker be like Weapon Focus + Greater Weapon Focus + Weapon Specialization so It would be two feats and the mistmail for the effect of three feats. The only downside is that it can be shut down (which means it will happen). I could probably go for mounted combat and trick riding instead. If the game lasts until level 15 I will be able to go for mounted skirmisher. probably not a bad idea anyway since both help with my ACs survivability (turning me into the primary target). Not taking Moonlight stalker will enable me to get Lunge aswell for More AoOs. Overall not taking blind-fight/moonlight stalker seems like the better choice. I don't think I will have the feats for augment summons though. Seems cool though.


Gear: I think belt of dex is better than strength here, since your build is about quantity of swings over quality.Obviously you can use animal aspect as needed here. Mistmail is decent once you can afford it, otherwise celestial chainmail is pretty much the best light. Chain shirt/mithral chain shirt until then. Get a wand of cure light wounds so you never need to prepare a heal spell-between that and heal skill you should not need anything else out of combat for the campaign. And a handy haversack is useful for all characters. Get a ranged weapon, even if it is just a crossbow. Eventually you want a compound shortbow, but have something for when you have a flying enemy ruining your sexy charge/AoO fantasies. Lesser restoration is also a good wand, as you don't want it to eat a spell known but will need it often.

The wand of cure light wounds is planned, the wand of lesser restoration seems like a great idea. The handy haverack is allways part of the plan i just forgott to mention it, sorry. I will most likely get a composit bow for flying enemies bevor level 10 (I plan to take Air walk). Why a short bow though? I will most likely forgo the mistmail if I do not take moonlight stalker. Not sure what I will do with armor now. shamans apprentice does give me endurance an being mounted opens up lots of other armor choices because my movement will not be affected.


Animal: Big cat is great, mainly for pounce. Permanent magic attacks is a top priority, moreso than armor. Blind fight is slightly better here since it is harder to give the companion powers. Remember that at high level you can use aspect of the bat to get blindsense to you and the companion.

What about Greater Magic Fang? It lasts hours/level which starts at levle 7. If I managed to get 16 Wis by then I can cast it twice a Day and I will probably be good.


Skills: handle animal,Nature, perception, ride, and stealth are the five you need to max. You have 8 per level before favored class bonus, so throw at least 1 rank into every other class skill. Since you are stuck with combat expertise, take three ranks in acrobatics for the +1 to AC when fighting defensively(it is likely you are doing both if you are desperate to not be hit, and then you just critfish. Even with negatives, a 15-20 should usually hit and that is crit range on your weapon...). Spellcraft is something you can grab if nobody else is good at it.

If I take mounted combat I will probably become the target of attacks mor often than my animal. Which does lend itself to using combat expertise and fighting defensively. good advice thanks. The top 5 are the skills I plan to max. I will probably take survival too because no one else will. And I need 5 Ranks in bluff for broken wing gambit.


Questions:
Should I delay blind-fight and moonlight stalker so I get power attack 4 levels earlier?-Yes, don't even bother with those.
Are there other/better options for concealment other than mistmail?-Yes, blur/displacement and other stuff from your friendly arcane caster.
What Abilities should an Amulet of mighty fists grant my companion-magic fang, and then just sheer power to overcome DR's

I proably don't need concealment all that much if I do not take moonlight stalker.
Amulet: If I used greater Magic Fang for enhancemnt. What special abilities should I grant my companion with the amulet. fortuitous really lends itself to the build but what else?


Spells: A note on spells-since you are going for minimum wisdom to be able to cast, don't pick things with DC's unless they have other good effects. Also remember that you get all the summon nature's ally spells for free when you hit that spell level.

Level 0-Detect magic, create water, guidance(spam it out of combat on skill checks), light, mending, detect poison
Level 1-Lead blades, heightened awareness, magic fang(forget once you get an amulet for kitty), faerie fire(negate invisibility and concealment) the rest is whatever is utility. I personally like read weather if I can just have an extra spell.
Level 2-Barkskin(unless you have good sources of amulets of natural armor), carry companion (if you need to hide your cat in cities)fog cloud and/or cloud of seasickness, resist and/or protection from energy
Level 3-Ash storm or sleet storm, greater magic fang(until you get an item for it), fickle winds, strong jaw
Level 4-dispel magic, animal growth, FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT, nondetection(maybe), echolocation(no need for blind fight)
5-control winds,hungry earth, wall of thorns, death ward
6-antilife shell, greater black tentacles, greater dispel magic, find the path(sometimes banned), move earth, wall of stone

Overall it should be fine-hunter is a strong tier 3 class, so unless your DM is a killer or the rest of the party is T1 godcasting you should be good.

Thanks for the list of Spells. I will throw in Air Walk on level 4 as it is pretty much my only flightish spell choice AND it does not require ranks in flying.

Thank you for taking the time to read and give such a detailed answer!


In addition to what's already said about moonlight stalker, dropping it allows you to drop your intelligence and increase con and/or str.

You should take broken wing before paired opp, and power attack before pack flanking, imho.

Sadly I require Int for combat expertise and pack flanking. I can take broken wing at level 5 at the earliest since it requires 5 ranks in bluff. Since I need combat reflexes too broken wing will be delayed until level 6 as combat reflexes can not be taken as a bonus Teamwork feat. I could take Power Attack before combat reflexes. Or I could take Power attack instead of paired opportunist and delay that until level 5 or 7.. The pack flanking/paired opportunist combo just seems a lot better than power attack even if it is conditional.. my companion does get Power attack after all.. Thanks for the advice I will think on it!

[Florian]

Combat expertise ist required for Pack Flanking. I need it so I always get the bonus from outflank when riding my tiger. Said Tiger also has the ability to pounce (from level 7 onward) and will probably be dealing most of my damage. In rounds where I can not full attack I can cast Ranger or Druid spells to support the party or controll enemies. I still need to pick spells though. I need a Bite Attack to qualify for Snapping Flank at 12th level so that I and my Animal companion can both Bite at as a swift action. I should Proably take power attack before Blind-fight (which helps against invisible enemies. more so with scent) and moonlight stalker. If you think these two feats are not worth it what would you suggest instead? Maybe there are usefull Teamwork Feats?

The Ragebred is interesting but probably deals less damage. To get three natural attack I would need the feat extra feature which requires 13 con. which makes me even madder (I suspect the +2con from shifting does not count). I can just take Snapping Flank for the same amount of addition natural attacks (2 from me 1 from my companion two of those as swift actions) that deal more damage(except for the secondary bite in a full attack).
Going Elf instead of half-orc would lose me a +2 bonus on all saves, my bite attack and the ability points I get from saving on Dex and Int would go right into Strength and possibly con. That probably leaves me at a net loss since Str is mor expensive than Dex or Int. I could probably live with 2 points less Dex as animal focus can help with that but I can't really use these 3 points.

Edit: Also, heaps of AoOs for me and my companion. So Pounce is less relevant on my Character.

Edit 2: I just realized that with outflank crits from my AoOs provoke AoOs from both me and my companion.. it has AoOs all the way down..

When you don´t plan on going into Mounted Combat and Spirited Charge, then I don´t see a real gain for actually riding your Companion. All you do is overcomplicating your positioning and compensate that with more feats. You´re better of keeping both separated for better adjustments on a battle map (like both being able to take 5 ft. steps).

Drop Moonlight Stalker, take Combat Reflexes and Power Attack as early as possible. You´ll want a decent 2H Reach Weapon to get started.

Remember the special feature the Hunter class has on teamwork feats: You can always relearn your latest one, it only becoming permanent when you get a new bonus teamwork feat. That means, amongst other things, that you can use some that are useful now and drop them later when their usefulness begins to decline.

So, start out with Precise Strike, Paired Opportunist and Coordinated Maneuvers, the drop the later when you move on and go for Broken Wing Gambit.

Animal Companion: Use a Wolf up until you reach lvl 7, then switch over to the Cat, Big. You´ll get more mileage out of the free trip attack at lower levels and the cat really only shines when it gets pounce.

Bite and Snapping Flank: The problem here is, that this will get very expensive WBL-wise or else it will just stay a neat little trick. We´re talking lvl 12 here and DR is a major thing at that point. You´ll need a AoMF for your Companion and another one just to keep your bite attack on a competitive level.

AoMF: As your Animal Companion has no means to deal with DR or any kind, you´ll need to keep that item updated and upgraded as fast and high as possible. No enhancements, just straight plusses.

[Seliven]

After taking in your advice I went back to the drawing board a bit. Since riding my companion was part of the idea I tried to figure out ways to get spirited charge and mounted skirmisher. The only really convenient way seems to be dipping sohei. Switching to Human gets me another feat. My planned Feat progression is now this:

1 Human: combat reflexes
1: combat expertise
2 Hunter: outflank (precise companion)
3: Power Attack
3 Teamwork: Pack Flanking
5: Broken Wing Gambit
6 Teamwork: Paired Opportunists
7: Lunge
9: Boon Companion
9 Sohei level 1: Spirited charge/mounted Skirmisher
10 Sohei level 2: mounted skirmisher/spirited charge
11: Animal Soul
11 Teamwork (Hunter level 9): Precise Strike (Swap for: escape route as needed, at +9 BAB snapping flank)
13:
14: Teamwork: Escape Route/precise Strike
15:
17:
17 Teamwork: Ferocious Loyalty(?)/Escape Route
19:
20 Teamwork:

The reasoning behind Snapping Flank is not that getting a swift bite is great for me. It's great for my animal companion. If the initial Target is already dead and there is another target in Range I can just bite and hopefully grab it. Companions usually don't have that much use for their swift actions.

Traits will change to: Adopted(orc(tusked)) (maybe a little cheesy but I can probalby just refluff it) and magical knack.

Amulet of mighty fists: How viable is getting an amulet that provides holy and later fortuitous for my companion and using Greater Magic Fang for the plusses. at level 12 I will get to +3 which means only DR/adamantine and DR/evil/chaotic/lawful will be an issue. How common are DR/chaotic/lawful/adamantine? DR/evil does not seem like something I will have to worry about much.

I know about using a Wolf until level 7. I might consider the tripping route though swapping companions seems.. sad? rp-wise.

Should I take spirited charge before mounted skirmisher or the other way around? I wait for level 9 because Animal focus gets better at level 8 and I get my first iterative (with fractional bab I could take sohei at level 8 and still get that).

What are good feats at later levels to flesh out the character?