Where did the standard Sorcadin build come from?

[Irk]

Whenever a Sorcadin is brought up, I always see Naenhoon sigil Illumian Pal 2/Sor 4/Spellsword 1/AbjChamp 5/SacEx 8 as being the basic bog standard. Don't get me wrong, it totally works, and it works great, but where did that standard come from? Do any of you think that there is a better permutation? Sometimes I see Dream Dwarf and Runesmith, but that's dependent on picking a race that isn't Illumian.

Is there a way to challenge this basic build? Some sort of improvement that can be made? Or is this just the best foundation for a Sorcadin available?

[AvatarVecna]

Whenever a Sorcadin is brought up, I always see Naenhoon sigil Illumian Pal 2/Sor 4/Spellsword 1/AbjChamp 5/SacEx 8 as being the basic bog standard. Don't get me wrong, it totally works, and it works great, but where did that standard come from? Do any of you think that there is a better permutation? Sometimes I see Dream Dwarf and Runesmith, but that's dependent on picking a race that isn't Illumian.

Is there a way to challenge this basic build? Some sort of improvement that can be made? Or is this just the best foundation for a Sorcadin available?

I'm probably wrong, but it seems like the kind of concept that's been around since Core, and just grew as more things came out that helped the build. It would start with Paladin 2/Sorcerer X, maybe with Eldritch Knight as well. But then the complete books came with Sacred Exorcist and Spellsword, the latter of which is only good for dipping anyway. Then, with Abjurant Champion coming out from...Complete Mage, I think? It became basically mandatory for gish builds. When Illumians came out, with a rather strangely powerful and versatile racial ability, people looked for lots of ways to abuse it and found they could stick it on a "classic" gish build which had long since morphed into a more splat-heavy monstrosity.

Or maybe I'm totally wrong, and the Sorcerer/Paladin wasn't really considered very often until someone combined a bunch of stuff together after the game had been out for awhile.

[Irk]

I'm probably wrong, but it seems like the kind of concept that's been around since Core, and just grew as more things came out that helped the build. It would start with Paladin 2/Sorcerer X, maybe with Eldritch Knight as well. But then the complete books came with Sacred Exorcist and Spellsword, the latter of which is only good for dipping anyway. Then, with Abjurant Champion coming out from...Complete Mage, I think? It became basically mandatory for gish builds. When Illumians came out, with a rather strangely powerful and versatile racial ability, people looked for lots of ways to abuse it and found they could stick it on a "classic" gish build which had long since morphed into a more splat-heavy monstrosity.

Or maybe I'm totally wrong, and the Sorcerer/Paladin wasn't really considered very often until someone combined a bunch of stuff together after the game had been out for awhile.

I guess that sort of gradual build makes sense, and I bet it lines up pretty well if you look at the year the books came out. What I'm really wondering is why that has REMAINED the standard. I haven't really spent a lot of time on Sorcadins, but I feel like there would be at least 2-3 standard builds. It's not something specific like a Rainbow Servant/Warmage or a Wu Jen/JPM, it's a very flexible framework, I'm sure it could be meshed well with Swiftblade or Harmonious Knight/Mystic Fire Knight stuff.

[Amphetryon]

I guess that sort of gradual build makes sense, and I bet it lines up pretty well if you look at the year the books came out. What I'm really wondering is why that has REMAINED the standard. I haven't really spent a lot of time on Sorcadins, but I feel like there would be at least 2-3 standard builds. It's not something specific like a Rainbow Servant/Warmage or a Wu Jen/JPM, it's a very flexible framework, I'm sure it could be meshed well with Swiftblade or Harmonious Knight/Mystic Fire Knight stuff.
It has remained the standard because it represents a flexible, powerful baseline against which other Sorcadin builds can easily measure their own flexibility and power. Most of the Sorcadins I've seen posted (outside of Theory-Op) that aren't the standard you've listed are deliberately sacrificing either broad power or flexibility in the interest of a particular trick, or a particular theme.

Are you asking because you've found a more powerful (or more flexible) build?

[Irk]

It has remained the standard because it represents a flexible, powerful baseline against which other Sorcadin builds can easily measure their own flexibility and power. Most of the Sorcadins I've seen posted (outside of Theory-Op) that aren't the standard you've listed are deliberately sacrificing either broad power or flexibility in the interest of a particular trick, or a particular theme.

Are you asking because you've found a more powerful (or more flexible) build?

That's the thing though, whenever Sorcadin comes up, it's usually just that same build with a few minor tweaks, usually revolving around feats and spells.

I haven't really been looking for a more powerful or flexible build. I don't suppose it would be too hard to find a more powerful one.

Flexibility in that standard build is big because it's a class build, and you can swap out feats, spells, and other bits to ultimately pull out the character you want.

What I'm wondering is when and how this became the powerful, flexible standard that it is now.

[Amphetryon]

That's the thing though, whenever Sorcadin comes up, it's usually just that same build with a few minor tweaks, usually revolving around feats and spells.

I haven't really been looking for a more powerful or flexible build. I don't suppose it would be too hard to find a more powerful one.

Flexibility in that standard build is big because it's a class build, and you can swap out feats, spells, and other bits to ultimately pull out the character you want.

What I'm wondering is when and how this became the powerful, flexible standard that it is now.

Then I suggest using the Wayback Machine to find the earliest posted iteration of that build, as that seems the likely answer you're seeking.

[Irk]

Then I suggest using the Wayback Machine to find the earliest posted iteration of that build, as that seems the likely answer you're seeking.

I've tried messing around with wayback since you've made this comment but I can't figure out how you input keywords into a site search. Do you think you could point me in the right direction?

[Dread_Head]

I think it's because it's pretty much the only way to get Divine Grace from Paladin, hit +16 BAB and 9th level spells. You can switch a few Sacred Exorcist levels out for Ruathar and Illumian isn't required (you can take Practised Spellcaster or take the CL hit instead) but otherwise there isn't much you can change and still hit those baselines. Hence it's ubiquity.

Edit: That answers the how at least, I have no clue about the when.

[Elder_Basilisk]

It probably developed organically as people suggested.

I suspect that the Pal 2/Sor 6/Eldritch Knight version came into being the day after 3.5 came out.

In 3.0 days, people were already doing Paladin/sorceror (only 1 level of paladin though since that was all you needed for divine grace) builds and were already using Sacred Exorcist for gish builds. I know that I saw both in Living Greyhawk prior to conversion and immediately after conversion. But using Sacred Exorcist and spellsword in pure 3.5 builds had to wait for it to be released for 3.5 and Abjurant Champion also had to wait for that class to be created.

[Willie the Duck]

What I'm really wondering is why that has REMAINED the standard. I haven't really spent a lot of time on Sorcadins, but I feel like there would be at least 2-3 standard builds. It's not something specific like a Rainbow Servant/Warmage or a Wu Jen/JPM, it's a very flexible framework, I'm sure it could be meshed well with Swiftblade or Harmonious Knight/Mystic Fire Knight stuff.

If I were to try to capture the basic structure/theme/idea of the Rainbow Servant/Warmage build, I'd say that it is that the benefits of the Rainbow Servant mitigates a weakness of the warmage. It's pretty straightforward there - in exchange for sorcerer-like spells/day and not having to choose as you level which few spells those can be, the warmage is limited to a very small and very focused spell list. The rainbow servant opens that up be slowly giving out cleric domains and eventually all cleric spells.

Likewise, the sorcadin had a limitation - it has a turning ability (and a high charisma, so many uses/day), but at a level that is too low to be commonly useful (paladin levels + Sacred Exorcist levels-3). The
Naenhoon sigil Illumian capitalizes on it by allowing them to turn those turn attempts into metamagic. It's like divine metamagic except that you can use it on any spells.

You are right though, in that that is not required for the build. If the DM doesn't allow Illumian's in their campaign, for instance, the build is still a good one. Paladin + sorcerer = charisma goodness and gish = most likely the most popular 'multiclass' concept. The Illumian part is just a bit of CharOp elegance to go on top.

[Irk]

It probably developed organically as people suggested.


This is what I see looking at threads from 2003-9. People talk a lot about Pal2/Sor4 as a building block, due to the divine grace synergy stuff. Before abjurant champion and Sacred Exorcist, there was a lot of Spellsword and Eldritch Knight, then Sacred Exorcist and Spellsword, and then someone did Abjurant Champion.

I saw an old Swiftblade handbook that put together a Sorcadin build with Swiftblade instead of Sacred Exorcist. I'm sure people playing around with AbjChamp when that came out saw how good it could be in sorcerer gish builds, and from there it was just a matter of time when those collided with the standard Pal/Sor/EldKnight/Spellswd builds that were already floating around.

[Pluto!]

Why reinvent the wheel? The build itself is relatively focused, and tweaking any of the numbers just opens all numbers of complications in maintaining the gish golden standard of 9th level spells and 16 BA along with the build's central appeal, Divine Grace.

[Irk]

Why reinvent the wheel? The build itself is relatively focused, and tweaking any of the numbers just opens all numbers of complications in maintaining the gish golden standard of 9th level spells and 16 BA along with the build's central appeal, Divine Grace.

I don't really want to provide a replacement. I literally just want to know who originally came up with it, and when it solidified as the standard. It's a question largely about history. I guess I asked why it can't be replaced in the OP, but I think there's a bit to that.

The Sorcadin went through evolution. Pal/Sor/Eldtritch Knight, then Spellsword was added, then sacred exorcist, eldritch knight removed, and abjurant champion added last. It's not inconceivable this process could continue, making the build more refined.

Why reinvent the wheel? Ask the community in 2003, 2004, or 2006? Complete Warrior, Complete Divine, Complete Mage, Races of Destiny all changed the way the standard Sorcadin.

New things are discovered all the time, and they didn't stop writing 3.X books in 2006. There is always a way to make it better. The standard Sorcadin doesn't use a specific collection of feats, because it is meant to be a chassis, it gets, as you said, 16 BaB, 9th level spells, and a great degree of SADness.

It can certainly be improved, the question is if there is a radically different approach that could displace it as the strong, variable foundation that it is.