Blind character with Blindsight

[Pinjata]

EDIT: I'm not the DM. Just sharing an experience.

Hey guys,

I'm currently regularly playing in one campaign, hop on the train here and there at the other and am prepping my material for my own 5e campaign.

In my regular campaign where I play (we are lvl 4), two of PCs recently died and one of them came back as some homebrew humanoid. He is blind, has Blindsight(60 ft). He is a caster(monk) and his basic mode is: cast Darkness on an item of his, charge up to a target, draw out an item, have himself engulfed in magical darknes and thus causing himself to gain sort of invisible condition which grants advantage vs enemies, unable to see him. At the same time, since he can see enemies and they do not, they get disatvantage vs him, can not sneak attack him or target him with spells.

Even during first session things have turned a bit "funny". He has cast darkness on his blade, but since darkness is not like light and emanation engulfs entire area of 15-ft radius, (spreads around corners as per spell description), he had blade hudden under his coat. Which was ... odd, because - coat is not like a bag. I think darkness would still ooze out.

Second thing was, in front of us was a low, wild hedge with a few trees. We, the guys with sight have hidden in it and were spotting the "bandit camp". We spotted a few guys and were contemplating how to do this (we were not even sure they were bandits) when our blind guy, who was about 55 ft behind us had cast Minor illusion shouting for group to "surrender since they are surrounded by local sheriff". This got me a bit cranky insice. Guy can not see beyond 60 ft, camp was like 250 feet from him and thus 200 from us and tactical mastermind still managed to did this.

"Bandits" (about 10 of them) have attacked us and they took their sweet time approaching while seeking cover between movement, etc. Our Blind guy who (his words) "heard things" and started to tactically move to flank the enemy. I was like "what enemy"? You are not a nordic fox to hear a mice moving under 2 ft of snow. How is a normal person suppose to hear people walking 200 ft away with wind blowing, branches creaking and leaves making noise. Anyway he flanked them, got in with his blade, was able to pinpoint his targets and engage. He also "oriented" by the arrows enemy was firing at US.

Then he engaged and had won his fight.

So. Blind guy with blindsight 60 ft. How should DM approach this? I want to know, since I will DM future games and something similar may pop up.

thans

[Shaofoo]

That seems to me that there is too much cheese to fully salvage anything that doesn't require just taking away blindsight and blindness.

Quite frankly just take away the blindness and blindsight, it is just too much as you have demonstrated. Probably consider taking it away since it seems that he is RPing as if he wasn't blind and in fact has eagle eye vision.

You could warn him to tone down that you can't pinpoint stuff from beyond your blindsight and any further transgression will have his blindsight and blindness revoked to something else.

You could just give him cataracts or some other form of penalty to vision that does not involve blindness if somehow being blind was such a core part of his character.

[Ossian77]

Hey guys,

I'm currently regularly playing in one campaign, hop on the train here and there at the other and am prepping my material for my own 5e campaign.

In my regular campaign where I play (we are lvl 4), two of PCs recently died and one of them came back as some homebrew humanoid. He is blind, has Blindsight(60 ft). He is a caster(monk) and his basic mode is: cast Darkness on an item of his, charge up to a target, draw out an item, have himself engulfed in magical darknes and thus causing himself to gain sort of invisible condition which grants advantage vs enemies, unable to see him. At the same time, since he can see enemies and they do not, they get disatvantage vs him, can not sneak attack him or target him with spells.

Even during first session things have turned a bit "funny". He has cast darkness on his blade, but since darkness is not like light and emanation engulfs entire area of 15-ft radius, (spreads around corners as per spell description), he had blade hudden under his coat. Which was ... odd, because - coat is not like a bag. I think darkness would still ooze out.

Second thing was, in front of us was a low, wild hedge with a few trees. We, the guys with sight have hidden in it and were spotting the "bandit camp". We spotted a few guys and were contemplating how to do this (we were not even sure they were bandits) when our blind guy, who was about 55 ft behind us had cast Minor illusion shouting for group to "surrender since they are surrounded by local sheriff". This got me a bit cranky insice. Guy can not see beyond 60 ft, camp was like 250 feet from him and thus 200 from us and tactical mastermind still managed to did this.

"Bandits" (about 10 of them) have attacked us and they took their sweet time approaching while seeking cover between movement, etc. Our Blind guy who (his words) "heard things" and started to tactically move to flank the enemy. I was like "what enemy"? You are not a nordic fox to hear a mice moving under 2 ft of snow. How is a normal person suppose to hear people walking 200 ft away with wind blowing, branches creaking and leaves making noise. Anyway he flanked them, got in with his blade, was able to pinpoint his targets and engage. He also "oriented" by the arrows enemy was firing at US.

Then he engaged and had won his fight.

So. Blind guy with blindsight 60 ft. How should DM approach this? I want to know, since I will DM future games and something similar may pop up.

thans


Normally this stuff is entertaining, when you read about it a ninja manga. The guy is blind, but just after a quick frown says : there are 5 men approaching from the north, they are running and their hearts are full of hatred (cue cherry petals, cue schwing of blads, cue bandits diced before they knew what hit them).

It transitions to the forum in a home-brew thread, such as "what would the stats be for Hyouma Muroga from the Kouga Manjidani clan?" and then stuff like "rogue 15/neverheardofthisPrC 3/knowthisotherPrCevenless1lvldip/discipleofobscuresectfromsplatbook4" obviously.

Your player's character is very much overplaying it. A blind character can do cool zatoichi stuff in exchange for being LESS proficient than a rather bland but 20/20 eyesight swordsman.

[Giant2005]

I play in a game where another player does the exact same thing this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dorthin_(5e_Race)) is the race if you are interested, as it is likely the same one you are dealing with.
As for how to handle these things as a DM, you immediately say no as soon as someone starts saying a phrase that sounds like it might have the word "DnDwiki" in it. DnDwiki is notoriously bad for having the most OP homebrew. If you let them use homebrew at all, make sure they find it elsewhere (and certainly don't let them make their own - in my experience that results in classes/races that make the stuff on DnDwiki seem humble by comparison).

[Douche]

I feel like the whole Daredevil archetype is just a symptom of special snowflake syndrome. I personally don't approve when people want to do things outside of the rules to make themselves stand out. That's just an attention grabbing behavior that gives way to other stuff, like the monk also wanting to be the one who saw his enemies 250 meters away and single-handedly assassinated all of them.

I get that people want to have fun and stuff, but those people need to be taken down a peg and realize they're not playing Harry Potter. They're one part of a team, not the goddamn chosen one who the entire world revolves around.

You should create challenges that absolutely require sight to do anything. Make them have to read a map. If they're a wizard or something, shower them with scrolls they will never be able to use. Give with one hand and take with the other! Muahahahahaha

[Corran]

At the same time, since he can see enemies and they do not, they get disatvantage vs him, can not sneak attack him or target him with spells.
Emphasis mine. You are fair game for any spell, unless the spell specifies in its description that the caster must see the target. Granted, most spells that target saves fall into this category, but you should always check because there are exceptions. Spells that rely on spell attack rolls function just like weapon attacks. Anyway, here are a few guidelines I managed to find from an old thread. Summary of how fighting inside an area of magical darkness works.
1) Firstly I think I should mention that darkvision doesn't work, as we are talking about magical darkness.
2) If a creature has not any means to cope with magical darkness, then it suffers from the blinded condition (ie it has disadvantage on its attack rolls, all attack rolls against it have advantage and it automatically fails all perception checks that rely on sight since it cannot see).
3) A small analysis to what exactly the above point means: Let character A be able to see in magical darkness, and let characters B and C that both cannot see in magical darkness and hence both suffer from the blinded condition. Character A attacks both characters B and C with advantage, and both character B and C attack character A with disadvantage. Character B attacks character C normally (neither advantage or disadvantage) and vice versa. Now assume that character B is a barbarian with the reckless attack feature. He could use it to cancel the disadvantage he has when attacking character A, and hence attack him normally (neither advantage or disadvantage). But the reckless attack feature would have absolutely no effect when character B attacks character C, so he would still attack normally and be attacked normally while in magical darkness, as advantage and disadvantage already cancelled out and extra source of either of them cannot further affect his roll (or the rolls against him for that matter).
4) Creatures who suffer from the blinded condition cannot make attacks of opportunity, as it is clearly stated in the AoO section of the rules, that you must be able to see the target of your attack of opportunity.
5) Single target spells that don't require an attack roll and instead force their target to make a saving throw generally work by RAW when the one who casts them is inside magical darkness and blinded. BUT.... in most of these spells' description, it specifies that the caster must be able to see the target, hence do take into account that the vast majority of those spells will be rendered useless when the caster is blinded. AoE spells are fair game though.


Even during first session things have turned a bit "funny". He has cast darkness on his blade, but since darkness is not like light and emanation engulfs entire area of 15-ft radius, (spreads around corners as per spell description), he had blade hudden under his coat. Which was ... odd, because - coat is not like a bag. I think darkness would still ooze out. Logic agrees with you, and so do I. And that is how I would rule this in my table. However, this is one of those things that fall directly under DM's discretion, so if your DM rules otherwise for whatever reason or in the name of simplicity or fun, then you have to argue with him, not much help here.


Second thing was, in front of us was a low, wild hedge with a few trees. We, the guys with sight have hidden in it and were spotting the "bandit camp". We spotted a few guys and were contemplating how to do this (we were not even sure they were bandits) when our blind guy, who was about 55 ft behind us had cast Minor illusion shouting for group to "surrender since they are surrounded by local sheriff". This got me a bit cranky insice. Guy can not see beyond 60 ft, camp was like 250 feet from him and thus 200 from us and tactical mastermind still managed to did this.

"Bandits" (about 10 of them) have attacked us and they took their sweet time approaching while seeking cover between movement, etc. Our Blind guy who (his words) "heard things" and started to tactically move to flank the enemy. I was like "what enemy"? You are not a nordic fox to hear a mice moving under 2 ft of snow. How is a normal person suppose to hear people walking 200 ft away with wind blowing, branches creaking and leaves making noise. Anyway he flanked them, got in with his blade, was able to pinpoint his targets and engage. He also "oriented" by the arrows enemy was firing at US.

Then he engaged and had won his fight.

So. Blind guy with blindsight 60 ft. How should DM approach this? I want to know, since I will DM future games and something similar may pop up.

thans
Again, under DM's discretion. The DM can call perception vs stealth checks if he feels there is the chance that your mnk could pinpoint, or at least estimate, the bandits' location. The DM can also decide that it is an autosuccess, or an autofail, according to conditions in play, like distance, overlapping noises, etc. The RAW as far as close quarters combat goes (and generally, close distance combat, assuming no extreme conditions which would make a DM rule otherwise), is that unless you try to hide (hide action when in combat), the enemy knows your location.

In your example, it is up to the DM to call perception chekcs or to deny them. Or to impose advantage or disadvantage as they see fit. There is no RAW for that. There is, however, some semi-official guidelines on a specific DM screen, as far as I've heard, which provide guidance for such a situation. If they're trying to be quiet: 2d6 x 5 feet
Normal noise level: 2d6 x 10 feet
Very loud: 2d6 x 50 feet

Very long distance unless the DM rolls low, and only in the former circumstance.

Also possibly of interest to the discussion, normal encounter distance:

Arctic, desert, farmland, or grassland: 6d6 x 10 feet
Forest, swamp, or woodland: 2d8 x 10 feet
Hills or wastelands: 2d10 x 10 feet
Jungle: 2d6 x 10 feet
Mountains: 4d10 x 10 feet

[RickAllison]

So he has Blindsight 60 ft.? Fine, give him 30 or 60 ft where he has disadvantage on all checks to locate anything, then he can't see anything beyond that point.

"I feel them moving and go to flank them!"
"Okay *rolls d4* you think they are to the northwest."
"I use my extra movespeed to move 60 ft to the northeast."
"When you move 50 ft in that direction, you can clearly feel them now. They were actually to your northeast, but you couldn't feel them moving from that far away. What would you like to with the rest of your turn?"

[Pinjata]

I'm not the DM. Just sharing an experience.

[Douche]

If they're trying to be quiet: 2d6 x 5 feet
Normal noise level: 2d6 x 10 feet
Very loud: 2d6 x 50 feet

Very long distance unless the DM rolls low, and only in the former circumstance.

Also possibly of interest to the discussion, normal encounter distance:

Arctic, desert, farmland, or grassland: 6d6 x 10 feet
Forest, swamp, or woodland: 2d8 x 10 feet
Hills or wastelands: 2d10 x 10 feet
Jungle: 2d6 x 10 feet
Mountains: 4d10 x 10 feet

That's in addition to a perception check (or listening, whatever) right? Cuz unless I'm wearing horseshoes, I doubt you'd be able to hear someone tiptoeing in the arctic at 60 feet. It'd be possible - hence the DC of a perception check - but not automatic, right?

[Pinjata]

If they're trying to be quiet: 2d6 x 5 feet
Normal noise level: 2d6 x 10 feet
Very loud: 2d6 x 50 feet

Very long distance unless the DM rolls low, and only in the former circumstance.

Also possibly of interest to the discussion, normal encounter distance:

Arctic, desert, farmland, or grassland: 6d6 x 10 feet
Forest, swamp, or woodland: 2d8 x 10 feet
Hills or wastelands: 2d10 x 10 feet
Jungle: 2d6 x 10 feet
Mountains: 4d10 x 10 feet

Is this from 5e? Not something looted from 3.5?

[JNAProductions]

Ask the DM to restrain this character, since he is clearly playing beyond his character's capability.

[JackPhoenix]

Is this from 5e? Not something looted from 3.5?

It's not in any 5e book. It's on some DM screen, though I'm not sure if that one is official. IMO, it's some homebrew based on 4e (3.5 worked diffrently, you took -1 penalty on Spot/Listen (or Perception, in PF) per 10' of distance from the enemy)

[Corran]

That's in addition to a perception check (or listening, whatever) right? Cuz unless I'm wearing horseshoes, I doubt you'd be able to hear someone tiptoeing in the arctic at 60 feet. It'd be possible - hence the DC of a perception check - but not automatic, right?
People disagree on this, and there has been already a couple of massive threads revolving around this.

My view of the rules, is that unless you actively try to be silent (ie unless you roll a stealth check), you are automatically heard if within the distance associated with the level of noise you make, if that makes sense.

[Daishain]

First of all, lay some ground-rules on his ability to perceive things. If it is outside 60', and constitutes information that cannot be gleaned using above average human senses, he cannot perceive it, period. Don't let him browbeat you on this. If there is some question on whether or not he can hear or smell something, make him roll a perception check. Use DCs that increase considerably with your best judgement of how tough it would be to hear or smell.

Secondly, he's using Darkness incorrectly. Unlike Light, it cannot be cast on a person or object, and it cannot be moved.

Finally, his character having a solid grasp of tactics is not a major problem in and of itself. Especially since as a monk I'm assuming his Wisdom is above par. If it is affecting your ability to provide a challenge, step up the enemy's use of tactics in response. Take that situation with him slipping off to flank the bandits for instance. Whoops, like a relatively smart bunch of miscreants, they split up to flank the party, and the group the monk didn't hear feather him with arrows.

[RickAllison]

First of all, lay some ground-rules on his ability to perceive things. If it is outside 60', and constitutes information that cannot be gleaned using above average human senses, he cannot perceive it, period. Don't let him browbeat you on this. If there is some question on whether or not he can hear or smell something, make him roll a perception check. Use DCs that increase considerably with your best judgement of how tough it would be to hear or smell.

Secondly, he's using Darkness incorrectly. Unlike Light, it cannot be cast on a person or object, and it cannot be moved.

Finally, his character having a solid grasp of tactics is not a major problem in and of itself. Especially since as a monk I'm assuming his Wisdom is above par. If it is affecting your ability to provide a challenge, step up the enemy's use of tactics in response. Take that situation with him slipping off to flank the bandits for instance. Whoops, like a relatively smart bunch of miscreants, they split up to flank the party, and the group the monk didn't hear feather him with arrows.

Quick clarification, Darkness cannot be cast on a person, but it can be cast on an object.

[Joe dirt]

If his blind sight is based on using sound then an illusion of noise would blind him... tremor sense would be immune to his go to tactic.... area effect spells would still work and sending creatures that also have blind sight would even the odds

[JackPhoenix]

Secondly, he's using Darkness incorrectly. Unlike Light, it cannot be cast on a person or object, and it cannot be moved.

"If the point you choose is on an object you are holding or one that isn’t being worn or carried, the darkness emanates from the object and moves with it."

From SRD. Also, I've noticed SRD's existence breeds laziness...even though some things are worded differently in the books and the SRD, I use SRD whenever I can because it's faster then searching through the books. Someone should invent ctrl + f that works with real books. Or release the books as PDF.

[greenstone]

Some thoughts.

Blindsight is a very powerful ability. Within range, no-one can hide from you. Bandits hiding behind a hedge (total cover) 50 ft away? No worries, you know where they are.

However, Blindsight 60 ft means they are *blind* beyond that. I'd perhaps allow a WIS (Perception) check to percieve foes moving beyond that, but probably no more than 100 ft. Beyond that, unless the foe is an armoured elephant, they are not making enough noise. The blind character has no idea the bandits are hiding quietly behind a hedge 70 ft away.

Blindsight does not allow a character to read. That means no books, no scrolls, no road signs. They can't find the inn or the mayor's office or the city gate without help.

I would not let a blind person cast illusion magic to create a vision. Sound, yes, but not vision.

[McNinja]

"If the point you choose is on an object you are holding or one that isn’t being worn or carried, the darkness emanates from the object and moves with it."

From SRD. Also, I've noticed SRD's existence breeds laziness...even though some things are worded differently in the books and the SRD, I use SRD whenever I can because it's faster then searching through the books. Someone should invent ctrl + f that works with real books. Or release the books as PDF.
The books can be found as PDFs all over the internet.

On topic, the character is clearly playing beyond their limits, and the DM needs to put their foot down and reel this monk back in otherwise he will keep being a ****.

[Giant2005]

Blindsight is a very powerful ability. Within range, no-one can hide from you. Bandits hiding behind a hedge (total cover) 50 ft away? No worries, you know where they are.

I think you are describing Omniscience 60' rather than Blindsight 60'.
Even Daredevil's vision isn't that good - he can't see through things either, so hiding behind something is just as effective against him as it is someone else.

[joaber]

About cheesy, for you guys, underdark races with eyes close, still have sunlight sensibility?

And a underdark race Mystic, focusing in third eye psionic dicipline to have blindsight with the normal two eyes closed, would sunlight sensibility penalty still apply?

[Gnaeus]

I think you are describing Omniscience 60' rather than Blindsight 60'.
Even Daredevil's vision isn't that good - he can't see through things either, so hiding behind something is just as effective against him as it is someone else.

Daredevil can land a spaceship in a crowded park by hearing people's breathing and heartbeats. I can provide an issue cite if you need.

Daredevil, like the character in question, can't see through things, or see at all. He can hear your breathing and heartbeat or little involuntary movements. Smell your sweat or cologne. Hiding behind something is completely ineffective against him, or a character with blindsight. Something that didn't move at all (a golem, or some undead) might be able to hide from the ability.

[Rhaegar]

Daredevil can land a spaceship in a crowded park by hearing people's breathing and heartbeats. I can provide an issue cite if you need.

Daredevil, like the character in question, can't see through things, or see at all. He can hear your breathing and heartbeat or little involuntary movements. Smell your sweat or cologne. Hiding behind something is completely ineffective against him, or a character with blindsight. Something that didn't move at all (a golem, or some undead) might be able to hide from the ability.

That may be what Daredevil can do, but his abilities are far and away above what a normal person with blindsight can detect. Also not all blindsight's are created equal. A Bat has blindsight, but that is through echolocation, a Slime has blindsight, but who knows what senses it is using.

Blindsight as to do with an alternate form of vision, detecting things within 'line of sight', detecting heartbeats would not fall under blindsight, but perception. Daredevil has blindsight, but in D&D terms he also has a passive perception on the order of 50+ which is what you need to passively detect people by their heartbeats.

[Gnaeus]

That may be what Daredevil can do, but his abilities are far and away above what a normal person with blindsight can detect. Also not all blindsight's are created equal. A Bat has blindsight, but that is through echolocation, a Slime has blindsight, but who knows what senses it is using.

Blindsight as to do with an alternate form of vision, detecting things within 'line of sight', detecting heartbeats would not fall under blindsight, but perception. Daredevil has blindsight, but in D&D terms he also has a passive perception on the order of 50+ which is what you need to passively detect people by their heartbeats.

No, it does not detect things within "line of sight". It detects things "within a specific radius" (5eMM p8). It is not blocked by a wooden table or a pile of refuse or a curtain or anything else that blocks vision.

Sure, Blindsight means different things to different creatures. It can mean echolocation, or generally hightened senses, or whatever it is an ooze has. Maybe it is like a fox which can hear a mouse scurrying under 18 inches of snow and jump in the exact place to strike it. Maybe it is sensing elf skin cells in 1 part per million. Maybe it is something to do with air vibrations. Maybe it can see your electrical signature like some fish do. Maybe it is purely magical and it detects your life force. But if you are within the radius, it picks you up. The ooze does not care how silent you are, or what you are standing behind. You can stand in the closet and it will glorph under the door and eat you. Other than the part where he can squeeze under the door, so will that character.

[Rhaegar]

No, it does not detect things within "line of sight". It detects things "within a specific radius" (5eMM p8). It is not blocked by a wooden table or a pile of refuse or a curtain or anything else that blocks vision.

Sure, Blindsight means different things to different creatures. It can mean echolocation, or generally hightened senses, or whatever it is an ooze has. Maybe it is like a fox which can hear a mouse scurrying under 18 inches of snow and jump in the exact place to strike it. Maybe it is sensing elf skin cells in 1 part per million. Maybe it is something to do with air vibrations. Maybe it can see your electrical signature like some fish do. Maybe it is purely magical and it detects your life force. But if you are within the radius, it picks you up. The ooze does not care how silent you are, or what you are standing behind. You can stand in the closet and it will glorph under the door and eat you. Other than the part where he can squeeze under the door, so will that character.

Blindsight may be able to detect someone within that radius, but it also doesn't prevent someone from stealthing, and hiding. There is nothing in the rules that say that someone with blindsight automatically detects people that are stealthing or hiding, only that they don't see through normal vision. Something like a bat still needs line of sight, bats can't see things through walls or around corners. Creatures with blindsight would still have to make their perception checks to detect someone that is stealthing. You might rule that they have advantage on their rolls. You're giving blindsight a lot of additional abilities that the rules simply don't support. If you want to play your games that way, that's fine. Just don't argue that the rules support you, they don't.

[RickAllison]

Blindsight may be able to detect someone within that radius, but it also doesn't prevent someone from stealthing, and hiding. There is nothing in the rules that say that someone with blindsight automatically detects people that are stealthing or hiding, only that they don't see through normal vision. Something like a bat still needs line of sight, bats can't see things through walls or around corners. Creatures with blindsight would still have to make their perception checks to detect someone that is stealthing. You might rule that they have advantage on their rolls. You're giving blindsight a lot of additional abilities that the rules simply don't support. If you want to play your games that way, that's fine. Just don't argue that the rules support you, they don't.

From the MM:


A monster with blindsight can perceive its surroundings
without relying on sight, within a specific radius .
Creatures without eyes, such as grim locks and gray
oozes, typically have this special sense, as do creatures
with echolocation or heightened senses, such as bats
and true dragons.
If a monster is naturally blind, it has a parenthetical
note to this effect, indicating that the radius of its
blindsight defines the maximum range of its perception.

So based on that passage, he still has to make passive Perception or checks to "see" anyone who is trying to Hide, but they can literally Hide right in front of him. Also, with blindsight 60 ft, it means by RAW he cannot see anything beyond that range. He is all but helpless against anyone more than 60 ft away because he is incapable of knowing anything of their position.

[ravenkith]

This player is being allowed to get away with things he shouldn't be. The race itself is a little unbalanced, but that's not the problem: the DM is.

Remember that the character lives in permanent darkness beyond 60ft. This means that, when he is walking around, he needs to make a perception (hearing) check in order to even be aware that something exists beyond that distance. Hearing also is not a precise sense for most playable races, meaning that, beyond 60ft, even if he makes a perception check, the best he can do is to guess at which square a person or object is in, and he makes any attack rolls against these individuals with disadvantage. He can never make targeted ranged attacks AT ALL, EVER beyond 60ft. He also will never be able to take advantage of class features like deflect arrows or danger sense if the attack comes from beyond that range.

Being able to figure out the general direction an attack is coming from is hard enough when you have eyes and can distinguish details - this character should have to at the very least make a perception check to figure out where the shot came from, along with everyone else...however, because he can't perceive beyond 60ft, if the attack came from outside that range, he should make his check with disadvantage.

Note that, if the character does not have the darkness spell running, he is constantly at a disadvantage when it comes to being targeted from range. A ranged combat rogue will get his sneak attack off every round versus this character, as he literally cannot be seen by the character in question (invisible, anyone?).

Furthermore, while the character most certainly can begin every single fight by casting darkness, he has no way (without being told) of being able to tell when the spell has expired (or worse, been countered).

In an underground campaign, in tight tunnels, this character *should* be extremely dangerous. It's a great build for that. In an above ground campaign, especially in open areas, the character should be at a tremendous disadvantage.

Normally, it's a DC 10 check to hear something moving when it's not trying to be stealthy (Stealthy creatures make stealth rolls, and then that becomes the DC for perceiving them). Keep in mind that the quieter something is, the harder it is to hear it at any distance, and the louder something is, the easier it would be. The DMG has no rules on this, so it's left up to the DM, unfortunately, but one possible solution could include estimating the decibels the sound is measured at, then using that as a range increment in feet, to a maximum of 5 range increments, or the like.

A sample list of decibel measurements:

Rustling Leaves 10 dB
Whisper 20 dB
Normal Conversation 60 dB
Busy Street Traffic 70 dB
Vacuum Cleaner 80 dB
Large Orchestra 98 dB
Walkman at Maximum Level 100 dB
Front Rows of Rock Concert 110 dB
Ambulance Siren (Threshold of Pain) 130 dB
Military Jet Takeoff 140 dB

So in theory, here, a rustling of leaves could be noticed at DC 10 from up to 10 ft away, DC 12 for 20ft, etc, all the way up to DC 18 at 50ft. Beyond that, there's no chance to pick it up out of the background noise.

In contrast, a military jet takeoff (dragon roar/breath attack?) would be DC 10 up to 140ft, then +2 DC for each increment all the way out to 700ft.

It's by no means perfect, but at least gives you something to work with.

[RickAllison]

This player is being allowed to get away with things he shouldn't be. The race itself is a little unbalanced, but that's not the problem: the DM is.

snip

Indeed, excellent points. Things like Fireball that designate a particular point could be just awful for that character; hearing can be great for general directions, but knowing the actual distance is why predators evolved the frontal eyes; they are the only way to effectively gauge distances so a blind person, even with blindsight, would have difficulty distinguishing distances for precise placement of spells.

[Gnaeus]

Blindsight may be able to detect someone within that radius, but it also doesn't prevent someone from stealthing, and hiding. There is nothing in the rules that say that someone with blindsight automatically detects people that are stealthing or hiding, only that they don't see through normal vision. Something like a bat still needs line of sight, bats can't see things through walls or around corners. Creatures with blindsight would still have to make their perception checks to detect someone that is stealthing. You might rule that they have advantage on their rolls. You're giving blindsight a lot of additional abilities that the rules simply don't support. If you want to play your games that way, that's fine. Just don't argue that the rules support you, they don't.

There is nothing in the rules that states that cover blocks it either. You are taking away a lot of things from blindsight that the rules simply do not support. If you want to play your games that way, that's fine. Just don't argue that the rules support you. They don't.

Yes, a bat can't use its echolocation to pinpoint someone around a corner. But it still has plenty good hearing to detect something as being there even if it didn't make a sound that was audible to a human ear. Most of those other examples of real world blindsight are specifically designed evolutionarily to avoid line of sight/hiding issues, like fish that can use electrical senses to detect things that are being perfectly still under a layer of dirt, or dolphins which can echolocate to do the same thing.

Your argument is not based on rules. It is not based on the real world blindsight equivalents. It is opposite to what blindsight/sense did in previous editions.

In a game, I think it would be reasonable to base a particular version of blindsight on a particular sense, with all the advantages/disadvantages that sonar, or electrical sense, or "heightened senses" would bring. But the rules (and the world, and prior edition understanding of what blindsight meant) are a lot closer to my position than yours.

[Giant2005]

There is nothing in the rules that states that cover blocks it either. You are taking away a lot of things from blindsight that the rules simply do not support. If you want to play your games that way, that's fine. Just don't argue that the rules support you. They don't.

Yes there is - the game has cover rules. It also has stealth rules too (which are more applicable in this situation). Blindsight doesn't have any abilities that alter either of those rules.

[Serket]

Hiding behind something is completely ineffective against him, or a character with blindsight.

Hmm... about that. Fluff-wise, blindsight seems to cover several different abilities, and some of them don't work like that. Example: bats have it. But bats can't detect through things or behind things. The sonar detects the closest surface only. You could hide from bats by standing behind a sheet of glass. Or a hedge. Or you could stand really close to a tree. Sonar can't necessarily tell an odd-shaped tree from a less odd-shaped tree with a person hugging it.

Rules-wise, Blindsight doesn't do that. It says they don't work by sight, so attempts to hide visually won't work. If a person's plan to hide was to use chameleonic magic while standing in the open, they will be detected. If their plan was to get close to the ground and merge their silhouette with bumpy ground, they might have a shot, depending on how the blindsight works. So "how the blindsight works" is going ot be really key to everything.

As for this blindsight idea, it seems problematic to me mostly because of the number of rulings it's going to generate - I've played a character with a similar power in a totally different game, and it was immensely fiddly. Also the player using it doesn't seem to understand (or is trying to avoid) their disadvantages!
Blindsight-only affects every moment of the characters life and every part of a scene. It means in many scenes they'll be relying on their friends for information, though sometimes they will get to reverse roles. It means they can't perceive very far, they can't read, can't stop a rogue at 70' from sneak attacking them to death with a bow, can't create visual illusions, and probably have significant difficulties telling people apart. It's a significant roleplaying challenge, and if the player doesn't want that, they should just stop.

[FightStyles]

When implementing a character feature that is not represented by the book, it's usually ideal to limit it to RP. Currently, no class/race/background grants blindsense. Therefore, if I were to DM, I would allow the character to be blind. However, through his monk training, he has gained the ablility to sense photons. He does not have blindsense, but is able to "see" as if he was using regular eyesight.

Then what's the point of being blind you may ask? Exactly... there is no point in being blind. Either way he is going to be worse or better than a normal character build. At least in my version no one would be posting online about how unfair it is.

[Azedenkae]

And this is why I don't allow homebrew or even UA stuff. >.>