Developing a Voidstone Warhead

[Jowgen]

Following a preliminary thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?478739-Fun-with-Voidstone)on the potential applications of Voidstone, the arguably most powerful non-magical substance in existence, I decided it might be fun to use it as the basis for large-scale warfare in a manner that dwarfs the effects of a bag-of-holding-in-portable-hole warhead

Stage 1: Acquiring Voidstone

To find Voidstone, one must brave the NEP for one day and succeed on a knowledge (the planes) check of DC 30. This invovled contending with this most inhospitable plane and its rather unfriendly residents, but all in all, this is the easiest part.

Stage 2: Preparing Voidstone

Physical contact with voidstone is deadly to all but the most durable of creatures. The obvious solution is the use of magic, but it is unclear as to what extend Voidstone is succeptible to different kinds of magic. Its disintegration-type effect makes force-effects a no-go, and anti-magic is pointless due to it technically being a non-magical substance. Telekenetic effects may not work either, depending on how similar the properties of regular Voidstone are compared to Spheres of Annihilation made from it. There is text suggesting that natural voidstone is succeptible to transmutation effects, but on the other hand, the fact that it can be used as an optional component to Enlarge and Widen Disjunction suggests some inherent anti-magical properties.

We do, however, know for certain that Voidstone can be "trapped", which is arguably vital to do before taking it away from the NEP. The only way I can conceive as the basis for this is the use of an effect that places the voidstone in stasis. Quintessence might be one way to acchieve this, but is not the easiest thing to obtain by far, and I personally think it would just be disintegrated like everything else. Shrink Item would work as a simpler alternative, if transmutation effects are ruled to work on the substance.

So you have acquired a sufficiently large portion of in-stasis Voidstone from the NEP without turning into nothing. Now comes the question on how to use it to reap mass destruction.

Stage 3: Firing the Voidstone

A +1 Dragonbone (Drac, +20 range) Long Range (Dragon 358 p. 42, + 20 range) Distance WSA Heavy Ballistae fired by someone with Horizon Goggles (CM) under the effect of a Hawkeye spell can net us a range increment of 360 ft with a max range of 1800 ft. One might also be able to adapt the A&E Flight Arrow concept to these bolts to get even more range, but this might not be compatible with adapting the Thunder arrow concept to them, as to allow tipping them with the trapped voidstone. This is a long range precision weapon that wont be deterred by walls of force.

A +1 Starburst (HoB p. 35) Heavy Trebuchet can not get quite the same range (not to mention firing rate), but allows for the firing of bigger chunks of Voidstone that explode into a 20 ft radius burst. Ignoring the actual rock damage, this essentially means everything within 20 ft of impact that fails the save is straight up gone. As to what unethical after-effects the fragments of voidstone will have upon the area, your guess is as good as mine.

The best of both worlds is found in the Dwarven Stonebow (Dragon 285 p. 88), which is a ballistae that fires Heavy Catapult stones, meaning the distance-boosting effects of the ballistae can be combined with the Starburst WSA. Overall distance still suffers, but on the whole, it is by far the cleanest delivery mechanism.

Stage 4: Making Voidstone-weapons truly destructive

A 20 ft radius burst of utter annhilation with potentially war-crime level after-effects is good, but considering the power of the base material, it feels like something better might be possible (especially if the stone was a much larger shrunken one). What is needed, imo, is a method to spread the exploding voidstone fragments over an even larger area, for the further the voidstone is spread, the more things and creatures it will come in contact with.

So yeah, anybody know a good way of spreading exploding debree over a whole city? :smallsmile:

[ATHATH]

Rockburst, maybe?

[Inevitability]

Why are you launching it mundanely? An Ocular Teleport Object should let you move the voidstone anywhere you desire. Anywhere between 3-5 scryings let you study an area carefully, which gives a 94% chance of the voidstone arriving at its intended target.

After all, why waste time moving an expensive and vulnerable launching installation to within 1800 ft. of its target when a 13th-level wizard can do the same thing more effectively?

[Jowgen]

Rockburst, maybe?

Hmmm... well, provided the method of stasis-ing doesn't interfere with LoE, it is and option. And, I suppose it could be widened (so a 5th level druid spell) to give a 40 ft burst rather than a 20 ft. Not a boost to city-levelling levels, but it certainly is an alterantive to the current approach.

Why are you launching it mundanely?

Other than it fitting with the "warhead" image, it's because one of the upsides to Voidstone is its non-magical nature. I can't teleport it into a dead magic area, but I sure as hell can fire it into one. Can't actually think of anything of the top of my head that would reliably block a force-effect bypassing siege weapon scale attack.

Teleport Object in particular has all the scry&die counters to contend with, not to mention the extra helping of bad ethics of taking a percentile chance of murdering a whole load of people other than the intended target.

That being said, it's not like other magic-based delivery systems aren't worth exploring. :smallsmile:

[Bronk]

Since we're already glossing over how to handle the voidstone safely, touch it, and attach it to things, I think another idea would be to take giant blocks of it and turn it into stone golems that happen to disintegrate everything they touch. They could have shoes made out of whatever we're touching them with so they don't fall through the ground, and you could either launch them out of catapults sized for giants or drop them from an airship... they'll land, causing damage, then follow up manually. I'm not sure how to get them to fly by themselves though... maybe just give them magic items also made from whatever we're touching them with?

[Belzyk]

Well I mean crag top archers can hit anywhere they want per raw so being a crag top archer would allow you to launch arrows anywhere you wanted on the same plane of existance. Just use shinanigans to boost your shot range with a longbow and pelt away

[Belzyk]

Since we're already glossing over how to handle the voidstone safely, touch it, and attach it to things, I think another idea would be to take giant blocks of it and turn it into stone golems that happen to disintegrate everything they touch. They could have shoes made out of whatever we're touching them with so they don't fall through the ground, and you could either launch them out of catapults sized for giants or drop them from an airship... they'll land, causing damage, then follow up manually. I'm not sure how to get them to fly by themselves though... maybe just give them magic items also made from whatever we're touching them with?

Talking about airships. Grind it up and just crop dust everything from an airship. Or rig a voidstone with something that would pulverize it and drop from airships. Ummm airship it from orbit it'll hit shattering and make a massive cloud of voiddust. Also. Golem with flight dropping from orbit would work to lol. Teleporting it above a city and dropping also xD. Though dropping large chunks from orbit might kill the entire world... depending on how much voidliur fallout it makes.

[zergling.exe]

Talking about airships. Grind it up and just crop dust everything from an airship. Or rig a voidstone with something that would pulverize it and drop from airships. Ummm airship it from orbit it'll hit shattering and make a massive cloud of voiddust. Also. Golem with flight dropping from orbit would work to lol. Teleporting it above a city and dropping also xD. Though dropping large chunks from orbit might kill the entire world... depending on how much voidliur fallout it makes.

Voidstone is unaffected by gravity so dropping it would cause it to float there. Launching it into its destination without an ability that makes it explode would cause it to either just stop when it arrives, or keep going indefinitely obliterating anything in its path. Potentially passing through planets in the process.

[Belzyk]

Voidstone is unaffected by gravity so dropping it would cause it to float there. Launching it into its destination without an ability that makes it explode would cause it to either just stop when it arrives, or keep going indefinitely obliterating anything in its path. Potentially passing through planets in the process.

Ok if that's the case making it explode high above a city would send shrattenal everywhere. That would be your best bet. Or just golems or with a decanter of endless water from outterspace into the city you wanna destroy.

[Belzyk]

Ok so after lookin it up. Taking a voidstone to any plane with gravity would cause cataclysmic destruction. And voidstone destroy anything but other voidstones. So idk how one would weaponize it except by Teleporting it to a plane and letting it wreck havoc like a black hole. A square piece of voidstone will seek out any living being to destroy straight from DMG. It's impossible to move also so teleportation won't work. Nor will telekinesis. Sooo... so as raw straight from DMG weaponizing it is impossible.

[Jowgen]

Since we're already glossing over how to handle the voidstone safely, touch it, and attach it to things, I think another idea would be to take giant blocks of it and turn it into stone golems that happen to disintegrate everything they touch.

The only confirmed method to safely handle Voidstone is making it into "Trapped" voidstone, as per the UA table, as that stuff can clearly be handled (beyond that, there is nothing that can actually be used to safely touch it with). Since force-effects are out, I think that a stasis-inducing effect is the most logical way of doing that, and I have other reasons to suspect that shrink item might be the itended method.

Now I don't think Voidstone trapped by any method is in a state where it can receive the TLC needed to make a Golem. On the other hand, if you were durable enough to handle the stuff directly, the creation of a Voidstone Golem might be possible, provided the voidstone doesn't just destroy its "animating force". This Golem would need some means of propulsion, which would have to be magical considering the constant annihilate-all-touched.


Taking a voidstone to any plane with gravity would cause cataclysmic destruction. [...] A square piece of voidstone will seek out any living being to destroy [...] It's impossible to move

Voidstone is described as being lesser than a Sphere of Annihilation, so if the latter doesn't cause the apocalypse, the later shouldn't either. The logical assumption is that Voidstone is gravity-immune and doesn't just keep sucking in the surrounding air like the sphere does. Voidstone's life-attraction powers are very ill-described (see original thread to discussion), and are thus best considered last. There is nothing to suggest that Voidstone's are inherently immovable, they just don't move as a sphere of annihilation does.


Ok if that's the case making it explode high above a city would send shrattenal everywhere. [...] Or just golems or with a decanter of endless water from outterspace into the city you wanna destroy.

How to achieve wide-area Voidstone-shard dispersal is the current question. The Decanter won't work as a dispersal method, since the water is non-magical and thus can't surive contact long enough to move the stone. Whether Voidstone Golems work is still unclear.

[Bronk]

The only confirmed method to safely handle Voidstone is making it into "Trapped" voidstone, as per the UA table, as that stuff can clearly be handled (beyond that, there is nothing that can actually be used to safely touch it with). Since force-effects are out, I think that a stasis-inducing effect is the most logical way of doing that, and I have other reasons to suspect that shrink item might be the itended method.

Now I don't think Voidstone trapped by any method is in a state where it can receive the TLC needed to make a Golem. On the other hand, if you were durable enough to handle the stuff directly, the creation of a Voidstone Golem might be possible, provided the voidstone doesn't just destroy its "animating force". This Golem would need some means of propulsion, which would have to be magical considering the constant annihilate-all-touched.


You'd have to be someone with a very high fort save or use a magical chisel with a high fort save, or both. You mentioned something about 'steadfast determination' possibly helping too, in the last thread. Alternately, you'd have to start making wishes, like in the rules quoted in the last thread for making the voidstone doors. In fact, maybe that's a good way to make the golems fly or at least be able to walk.



How to achieve wide-area Voidstone-shard dispersal is the current question. The Decanter won't work as a dispersal method, since the water is non-magical and thus can't surive contact long enough to move the stone. Whether Voidstone Golems work is still unclear.

I think this would work actually. Disintegration only works vs. creatures and objects, and water doesn't count as an object in 3.5, just like air.

[Inevitability]

I think this would work actually. Disintegration only works vs. creatures and objects, and water doesn't count as an object in 3.5, just like air.

Actually:

Possess Noncontinuous Object (Su): At 5th level, a fiend of possession can use its possess object ability to take control of an "object" more loosely defined: a pool of water, a cloud of dust, or a section of wall or floor. At this level, a fiend of possession can also possess (and animate) Colossal objects.

This seems to imply that water isn't an object in the conventional sense, but still an object.

[Belzyk]

Yaw keep talking about fort saves but I can find no mention of voidstone allowing fort saves. It states it destroys anything within range within seconds. I mean going on what we want to figure out and what is provided I'd say you'd need some dm hand waving fiat. Because the info given makes it impossible to work with the substance. It's basically a black hole.

[Jowgen]

This seems to imply that water isn't an object in the conventional sense, but still an object.

The fact that bless water allows an object saving throw also suggets this.

More than that though, Voidstone does not carry the limitations of the disintegrate spell. "Anything" that comes into contact with a voidstone is "destroyed", wherein the Dungeon 153 goes into more detail and describes this effect as "Annihilation", which, on a failed save, does leave the subject "disintegrated", but doesn't actually appear in italics or equate itself to the Disintegrate spell. So yeah, same end result as the Disintegrate spell for most things (no , but differnt effect causing it.

Water and air (and arguably gravity), whether they are object or not, are "anythings" that can come into contact with voidstone. I think it is the "trace of fine dust" (or in some cases ash) clause of the disintegrated condition combined with the pressurized nature of water- and air-based enviroenments that prevents terrible cataclysms (especially in palces like the Elemental Plane of Water).

My take in cat-girl murdering detail: Upon initial contact, fresh voidstone disintegrates a volume of water/air, after which the water/air beyond its reach collapses into the vaccum, causing a thin layer of the already disintegrated "trace of fine dust" to form around the voidstone. The constant air/water pressure from the outside, and the annihilation power of the voidstone from the inside, keep this shell intact while the environment is still, and repair it when something (like a current or gust of wind) temporarily disturbs it.


Yaw keep talking about fort saves but I can find no mention of voidstone allowing fort saves.


Unlike with a sphere of annihilation, a character touching a piece of voidstone gets a DC 25 Fortitude save each round he or she stays in contact with it

Interestingly, it doesn't distinguish attended objects; but lets not go there for now...

[Bronk]

Actually:


This seems to imply that water isn't an object in the conventional sense, but still an object.

That is an interesting exception! Still, primary sources and all that.


The fact that bless water allows an object saving throw also suggets this.


The target of the 'bless water' spell is a 'flask of water' though, not just a bunch of (noncontinuous?) water.

[Belzyk]

The fact that bless water allows an object saving throw also suggets this.

More than that though, Voidstone does not carry the limitations of the disintegrate spell. "Anything" that comes into contact with a voidstone is "destroyed", wherein the Dungeon 153 goes into more detail and describes this effect as "Annihilation", which, on a failed save, does leave the subject "disintegrated", but doesn't actually appear in italics or equate itself to the Disintegrate spell. So yeah, same end result as the Disintegrate spell for most things (no , but differnt effect causing it.

Water and air (and arguably gravity), whether they are object or not, are "anythings" that can come into contact with voidstone. I think it is the "trace of fine dust" (or in some cases ash) clause of the disintegrated condition combined with the pressurized nature of water- and air-based enviroenments that prevents terrible cataclysms (especially in palces like the Elemental Plane of Water).

My take in cat-girl murdering detail: Upon initial contact, fresh voidstone disintegrates a volume of water/air, after which the water/air beyond its reach collapses into the vaccum, causing a thin layer of the already disintegrated "trace of fine dust" to form around the voidstone. The constant air/water pressure from the outside, and the annihilation power of the voidstone from the inside, keep this shell intact while the environment is still, and repair it when something (like a current or gust of wind) temporarily disturbs it.





Interestingly, it doesn't distinguish attended objects; but lets not go there for now...

Thank you I missed that one.

[Jowgen]

The target of the 'bless water' spell is a 'flask of water' though, not just a bunch of (noncontinuous?) water.

"A flask" is arguably a unit of volume measurement for the water. It even says "a flask (1 pint)" in the spell description, which to my knowledge takes precedence (?). Really, the idea that you couldn't instead bless a pint-glass of water, a pint-mug of water, or a levitating pint-ball of water, but could bless a custom-made 10-pint "flask" of water; is rather weird. :smalltongue:

Another example though is the lowly "purity food and water", which allows object saving throws and can target water based on it's cubic ft (going so far as to provide unit conversion information in the spell).

[Bronk]

"A flask" is arguably a unit of volume measurement for the water. It even says "a flask (1 pint)" in the spell description, which to my knowledge takes precedence (?). Really, the idea that you couldn't instead bless a pint-glass of water, a pint-mug of water, or a levitating pint-ball of water, but could bless a custom-made 10-pint "flask" of water; is rather weird. :smalltongue:

Another example though is the lowly "purity food and water", which allows object saving throws and can target water based on it's cubic ft (going so far as to provide unit conversion information in the spell).

In this case though, you do need the flask, but the flask has to be holding one pint of water. It comes up in the description for holy water too. The 'purify food and drink' spell doesn't doesn't bring up objects at all, it just lists the cubic foot limit of the materials it affects.

I agree, 3.5 rules can be totally weird.

But that's great for your plan! You can have regular golems shooting voidstone golems around with jets of water, or maybe using wind fans to blow clouds of voidstone dust around...


Edit: Plus, that would be a great way to get the stones out of the negative energy plane in the first place! Have some flying shadesteel golems with wind fans round them up and carefully blow them through portals...

[Jowgen]

In this case though, you do need the flask, but the flask has to be holding one pint of water. It comes up in the description for holy water too. The 'purify food and drink' spell doesn't doesn't bring up objects at all, it just lists the cubic foot limit of the materials it affects.

Purify food and drink is "Target: 1 cu. ft./level of contaminated food and water" and "Saving Throw: Will negates (object)" (also) "Spell Resistance: Yes (object)". I believe it naturally follows that cubic ft of water, by themselves, can count as objects; which may receive saving throws (and SR) against this spell depending on (admittedly hard to imagine) circumstance.

Still, for the sake of argument lets assume that liquids do not count as objects. How do we get around it qualifying as (in this case nonliving) matter? Water has weight/mass, which it obviously need to exert force upon the voidstone, which invariably causes it to come into contact with the voidstone. Long story short, even if not an object by definition, it still is a physical "something" that can be broken down further. If you fill a Voidstone goblet with water, how could the water possibly continue existing?

I do, however, now think that using air-pressure might work. Disintegrated things are reduced to fine traces of dust, and air is less substancial than dust, so one shouldn't be able to break it down into dust. Thus, an effect that produces wind-strenght sufficient to move a levitating piece of stone should also be able to move a piece of floating voidstone. One practical problem with this interpretation, however, is that it opens up the world to what might well be the most terrible thing imagineable: A Voidstone-shard filled hurricane. :smalleek:

Now to use this this to get voidstone out of the NEP comes with its own problems. If a portal does indeed allow pressure exchange from one side to the other, then a gate to the NEP would come with a terrible air-vortex effect similar to the Vaccum gate in FCI, which I don't see your average gust of wind overcoming. Actually, speaking of, do we actually know whether wind-generating effects are workable on an air-less plane? :smallannoyed:

I think its far easier to use the Voidstone's own life-magnetism power. Square-sized pieces should be more than suitable enough for general Warhead purposes, all that's needed is someone to stand on the other side of the portal.

[Belzyk]

Purify food and drink is "Target: 1 cu. ft./level of contaminated food and water" and "Saving Throw: Will negates (object)" (also) "Spell Resistance: Yes (object)". I believe it naturally follows that cubic ft of water, by themselves, can count as objects; which may receive saving throws (and SR) against this spell depending on (admittedly hard to imagine) circumstance.

Still, for the sake of argument lets assume that liquids do not count as objects. How do we get around it qualifying as (in this case nonliving) matter? Water has weight/mass, which it obviously need to exert force upon the voidstone, which invariably causes it to come into contact with the voidstone. Long story short, even if not an object by definition, it still is a physical "something" that can be broken down further. If you fill a Voidstone goblet with water, how could the water possibly continue existing?

I do, however, now think that using air-pressure might work. Disintegrated things are reduced to fine traces of dust, and air is less substancial than dust, so one shouldn't be able to break it down into dust. Thus, an effect that produces wind-strenght sufficient to move a levitating piece of stone should also be able to move a piece of floating voidstone. One practical problem with this interpretation, however, is that it opens up the world to what might well be the most terrible thing imagineable: A Voidstone-shard filled hurricane. :smalleek:

Now to use this this to get voidstone out of the NEP comes with its own problems. If a portal does indeed allow pressure exchange from one side to the other, then a gate to the NEP would come with a terrible air-vortex effect similar to the Vaccum gate in FCI, which I don't see your average gust of wind overcoming. Actually, speaking of, do we actually know whether wind-generating effects are workable on an air-less plane? :smallannoyed:

I think its far easier to use the Voidstone's own life-magnetism power. Square-sized pieces should be more than suitable enough for general Warhead purposes, all that's needed is someone to stand on the other side of the portal.

You still run into the problem that you can't use it as a warhead because it will destroy anything that touches it. It dosent desintigrate it aniahlates whatever it touches. Or so the DMG says. So is utter aniahlation the same as turning into dust?

[Jowgen]

You still run into the problem that you can't use it as a warhead because it will destroy anything that touches it. It dosent desintigrate it aniahlates whatever it touches. Or so the DMG says. So is utter aniahlation the same as turning into dust?

As per Unearthed Arcana, there is such a thing as "Trapped Voidstone", which can be used as an optional material component, meaning it must be possible to touch it. Placing the Voidstone in stasis via e.g. Shrink Item (which works even on burning torches), seems like the most logical way of achieving this. Annihilation is an effect that leaves whater was affected disintegrated, as the end-result of the distintegrate spell, which leaves being "a fine trace of dust". Beyond that, things are just gone, afaik.

[Jack_Simth]

Harvesting: It can be handled by a person who does not fail fort saves on a roll of 1, and has a +24 or better Fort mod. Steadfast Determination, PHB II, will thus let a high-fort person handle it safely.

Storing: Attended objects can use the attendee's fort save, so a Bag of Holding should work just fine (as long as the right person keeps a hold of the bag).

Shaping: This same person, on the astral plane, should be able to work the material: anything attended uses the attender's saves, so attended tools are fine, and on the Astral, there's no need for a supporting structure that the stuff might break.

So the right person can collect it, store it, and shape it. What form do we want? Probably lots of little pebbles.

How do we distribute for maximum carnage? Combine with another trick.
1) Make a bunch of Quintessence (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/quintessence.htm).
2) Cast an Explosive Spell (Complete Arcane Page 79) Delayed Blast Fireball on a short timer.
3) Cast Animate Objects on the Delayed blast fireball bead (to make it a creature).
4) Shove Delayed blast fireball bead into the quintessence (to stop the timer).
5) Cast Animate Objects on a Voidstone Pebble (to make it a creature for Explosive Spell).
6) Shove animated Voidstone Pebble into Quintessence. Quintessence must of course be attended by the voidstone-proof person from earlier.
7) Loop back up to 2 until you run out of voidstone pebbles.

You now have your nuke. The voidstone will... probably not destroy the quintessence once it's locked out of time. To set it off, you just free some of the delayed blast fireball beads from the quintessence (perhaps, say, with a fireball, or just shattering the barrel you're storing it all in). Timers start counting down on the Explosive Spell Delayed Blast Fireballs, which start going off, scattering the voidstone pebbles and other delayed blast fireballs around the edges of the area and freeing them from their quintessence prisons. This chains. The amount of area depends on how many loops you managed.

[Jowgen]

You now have your nuke.

Brilliant. I had not considered nesting several explosive-spell type effects together to create a cascade.

I have found one thing to add to this concept that eliminates the need for both explosive spell and animating the voidstone: Pebble Wind.

This spell from Dragons of Faerun is 3rd level and creates a 1 round 20 ft spread of air that throws about all loose objects as heavy or lighter than a chicken egg in the area, damaging everyone and everything in the area by hitting them with said object. As written, it will explcitly work to hit everything with our initially scattered voidstone pebbles, annihilating everything with 20 ft.

Nesting a few of these into the Voidstone-bag mix should allow us to get several overlapping 20-ft radius clouds of utter destruction. Is there an alternative to delayed spell and quintessence duration-stop that we can use though?


EDIT: I just realized, lowly glyph of warding should work. Un-modified pebble wind is 3rd level, and can thus be cast into a Glyph. As written, both it and Pebble Wind can be made into Eternal wands (at no Material Component charge by RAW), taking care of resouce management. All that remains is time to set it all up.

We get some russian dolls to serve as warded containers. When the intial bebble wind spreads the dolls and then damages them with its own effect, the glyphs of the outer-most dolls go off and spread the next layer of dolls, which are then in turn triggered. Depending on how far we can nestle the dolls while still keeping them within pebble wind's weight limit, this can result in quite the extensive spread. Can Shrink Item be worked into this?

[Jack_Simth]

Brilliant. I had not considered nesting several explosive-spell type effects together to create a cascade.Eh. I'm just adapting work from someone else. I didn't really come up with the Explosive Spell Delayed Blast Fireball in Quintessence trick, I just tacked the voidstone on (and added Animate Objects to dot an i). Quite frankly, the voidstone is mostly just icing - that DBF trick will reduce most things to ash anyway; the voidstone payload is just adding Fort save or die effects into the mix with the Reflex half damage.

We get some russian dolls to serve as warded containers. When the intial bebble wind spreads the dolls and then damages them with its own effect, the glyphs of the outer-most dolls go off and spread the next layer of dolls, which are then in turn triggered. Depending on how far we can nestle the dolls while still keeping them within pebble wind's weight limit, this can result in quite the extensive spread. Can Shrink Item be worked into this?You can work shrink item in... gets rid of a lot of the ambiguities doing it that way. D&D has funny definitions of an object for purposes of Shrink Item (a fire and it's fuel is one of the examples!), so yes, you should be able to make some use of it to help nest (instead of the tiny little baby doll in the middle, you have a set of Shrink Item Russian Dolls), but do remember that you also have to work the voidstone itself in there, you don't want to be anywhere nearby when it goes off, and unless you're pulling things out of time there's little to stop it from eating away your containers... so you're still going to need the quintessence. Stack a bunch of russian dolls, nested by Shrink Item, each having a few voidstone pebbles buried in quintessence in the doll layer as well... that could work.

[Belzyk]

So what are we going to name this weapon of mass destruction in dnd world? I'm legit curious now lol this just seems awsome. And I guess it would be manufactured by snork industries right?

[Jowgen]

Stack a bunch of russian dolls, nested by Shrink Item, each having a few voidstone pebbles buried in quintessence in the doll layer as well... that could work.

Do you personally think that Shrink Item would be enough to suppress the Voidstone's annihilation effect? I mean, if it can pause active combustion, why not this?

If so, I think it's probably best to make the russian dolls themselves out of voidstone. Make each into a sphereical container made of many smaller interlocking parts that all come appart upon impact on a solid surface. Kinda like this:
http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/x/jigsaw-globe-5328313.jpg

Construct a small one of these, apply glyph of warding with pebble wind, shrink it down to fine size, and then just keep building slightly bigger ones around it. Each shell provides the pebble-sized pieces required for 20-ft burst annihilation. Considering how thin the shrunken layers end up being, one can go arbitrariy high in their number really, just takes time is all. The headache that remains is estimating how much extra area each subsequent shell adds to the total.

Now I think with this we've got a workable and rather elegant distribution and detonation system that works well with the Starburst Dwarven Stonebow delivery, but I would also like to address how to handle the fall-out of deploying one of these babies.

As is, after the Warhead goes off and spreads all the pieces as far as it can and gives them a round to swirl about and annihilate everything, the entire area remains filled with tiny shards of floating Voidstone. A big black-grey cloud of death in the space that probably used to be a populated area. I imagine entering one results in something a little bit like this:

http://t04.deviantart.net/RHOtxZvmrnibCeipc6NEmLgTHKk=/300x200/filters:fixed_height(100,100):origin()/pre05/4994/th/pre/f/2009/116/9/4/c4_karura_by_undying_sama.jpg

What might be a good way to re-gather all these pieces and ideally reassemble the whole contraption after wiping the target location from existence before natural winds spread it all and cause nuclear winter? The best I can think if right now is prestidigitation's gather-function.


So what are we going to name this weapon of mass destruction in dnd world?

Personally, I'd be mounting mine on my Damocles airship (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?450810-Pimp-my-Airship-The-Damocles) and call it Fleia (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzaBE2wZMY8). But that's just me.

[Jack_Simth]

Do you personally think that Shrink Item would be enough to suppress the Voidstone's annihilation effect? I mean, if it can pause active combustion, why not this?
Hmm... I think I mentioned this...

and unless you're pulling things out of time there's little to stop it from eating away your containers... so you're still going to need the quintessence.
No, I do not consider shrink item, of itself, to be sufficient. However, it destroys things based on rounds timing, so if you're able to temporarily prevent it from destroying stuff by attending it and being personally immune due to clever saves, pulling it out of time should work.

[Jowgen]

No, I do not consider shrink item, of itself, to be sufficient. However, it destroys things based on rounds timing, so if you're able to temporarily prevent it from destroying stuff by attending it and being personally immune due to clever saves, pulling it out of time should work.

Well, so long as the Warhead is constructed enitrely of just Voidstone and non-physical spells, I think the time-suspesion shouldn't be nessecary; as long as the Annihilation-immune creature in question handles all the mining, assembly and deployment.

Speakin off, if one wanted to go with the Dwarven Stonebow for delivery; the Quick-loading WSA might be useful for its extra-dimensionally ammuniton storage ability. Everyone sleeps better when the repository of terrible WMDs is locked away in a cozy demiplane. All that is needed now is a "2 Keys to authorize" launch mechanic to make the whole thing appropriately nuclear. :smallsmile:

[Jack_Simth]

Well, so long as the Warhead is constructed enitrely of just Voidstone and non-physical spells, I think the time-suspesion shouldn't be nessecary; as long as the Annihilation-immune creature in question handles all the mining, assembly and deployment.
We do not know the working properties of voidstone; not all materials can be made into carefully constructed rigid objects. We do know that it's possible to make Russan Dolls out of other materials, and they can be customized at least somewhat to allow for holding some voidstone and quintessence. But yes, if you make it entirely out of voidstone then all you need to worry about is yourself and the container for when you don't want it to go off.

Speakin off, if one wanted to go with the Dwarven Stonebow for delivery; the Quick-loading WSA might be useful for its extra-dimensionally ammuniton storage ability. Everyone sleeps better when the repository of terrible WMDs is locked away in a cozy demiplane. All that is needed now is a "2 Keys to authorize" launch mechanic to make the whole thing appropriately nuclear. :smallsmile:Hmm... well, magic item guidelines do have the option of adding use restrictions, and they're left pretty vague. Cursed items have "Dependant" options... so if you tack on, say, "Item must have a particular spell cast upon it each day" on there twice with two high-level spells from different lists (like, oh, Song of Discord [Bard-5] and Miracle, maybe?) then "arming" it takes two different people. Also include "Character must swear fealty to a particular noble or his family" and/or "Character must worship a particular deity" and it'll probably not be used except under orders.

[Graypairofsocks]

Actually:


This seems to imply that water isn't an object in the conventional sense, but still an object.

Could we use that ability you quoted to posses a large chunk of voidstone?

[Inevitability]

Could we use that ability you quoted to posses a large chunk of voidstone?

I suppose you could. Nice find!

The best part is that you could keep possessing the voidstone even after it is reduced to dust, making regathering it trivial.

[Jowgen]

After looking into ways of achieving large-area coverage without the need for nesting lots of spells, I have concluded that Pebble Wind is sub-optimal. It's a perfectly good option for a lower level Warhead that specifically annihilates a 20-ft globe; which might be useful for taking down specific buildings (or creating a nice hollow space in a mountain) but for levelling cities its just not big enough.

I think that good old Control Winds is the best alternative. It's 40 ft/level radius cylinder of at least Windstorm Strenght winds (Pebble Wind is Severe Wind, like Gust of Wind is) should be more than enough to pelt all the little pieces of Voidstone about the area until the only thing left alive will be Voidstone. The clockwise circle pattern is likely the best, especially if one can make it a spiral and reverse it on a round/round basis.

The dowside obviously is that it requires a 9th level druid or air-domain cleric instead of a bog-standard 5th level Wizard and can't be made into an eternal wand or cast into a regular glyph of warding. Greater glyph of warding is required, meaning an 11th level cleric is required, plus the material compoent cost/casting.

So with this, the Warhead is a large sphereical hollow container fashioned of Voidstone that holds lots and lots of Voidstone shards, which then has Greater Glyph of Warding with an "outwards rotation at max strength" pattern Control Winds cast into it, and is then subject to Shrink Item to make it the right size to be fired from a +1 Distance (Starburst) Self-Loading Long-Range Dragonbone Dwarven Stonebow.

For max-effect, the stone should be aimed at a low point in the target area, so that lots of stuff collapses into the 40-ft high cylinder of annihilation. After the city in question is gone, the original Control Winds caster should be able to move close and concentrate to have the winds blow in a concentric fashion that helps re-collect all the Voidstone pieces. These can then be subject to copious ammounts of Mending or Shape Stone to get back into their original container-form and refilled with the remaining Shards. Re-apply GGoW, Control Winds and Shrink Item, re-load into Stonebow, repeat.

EDIT: To surmize:

The Current Voidstone Arsenal

1. Voidstone grenade

A shrunken spherical jiggsaw-ball of voidstone with Glyph of Warding and Pebble wind. Throwing it (to a safe distance) causes the jiggsaw-ball to unshrink and open due to impact, following which the Pebble Wind spell blows about all the jiggsaw-Voidstone pieces in a 20-ft radius spread of annihilation for 1 round. Especially effective against annoying force-based obstacles, not to be used at close range; ideally stored in an extra-dimensional space. Might go well with a Gnome Calculus (A&E)

2. Voidstone Warhead MK I

Simply a large solid piece of Voidstone fired by a Starburst siege engine. Same 20-ft radius annihilation effect as the grenade, but employable at a longer range, and does not require spells/enternal wands.

3. Voidstone Warhead MK II

The grenade's big brother, employing Control Winds and Greater Glyph of Warding in order to decimate population centers. Extra-long duration and cylinder shape may have tactical benefits.

[ATHATH]

Should you add this to your signature?

[Jowgen]

Should you add this to your signature?

I might do, although space is running a bit tight there. Still got to get around to doing the formatting for the Magical Plants index first, and then of course comes the part of making a fresh thread and writing it up all nice (maybe with some pictures and whatnot).

It's probably best to let this sit for a while anyway. After all, somone might suggest another angle that could result in another expansion to the arsenal; or I might think of something randomly.

[ATHATH]

Can you use Telekinesis to fling the weapons?

[atemu1234]

Now I want to make a weapon made of Voidstone to be weilded by a demigod. Thanks, people.

[Jowgen]

Can you use Telekinesis to fling the weapons?

It's debateable.

The DMG stipulates "A chunk of voidstone cannot be controlled through mental energy as a spheres of annihilation can be", and the Sphere describes mental energy as a weak mundane form of telekenesis. The Voidstone doors from Dungeon 153 are immune to transmutation, which telekenisis technically is, but the context suggests that this is not an inherent property of voidstone. Lastly, one could argue that all magic/energy that ties to affect the Voidstone qualifies as an "anything that comes into contact" and is thus destroyed, as per Disjunction, which Voidstone serves as an empowering and wideneing metamagic component for.

I think it just comes down to how magic-resistant a given DM rules voidstone to be. I personally would rule against telekensis working.


Now I want to make a weapon made of Voidstone to be weilded by a demigod.

Interestingly, having a divine rank of 1 or higher is the only way other than Steadfast determination that I know to avoid Nat 1 failures on a Fort save.

[Madara]

How would Fiend of Possession interact with Voidstones?

According the Etherealness(the spell which their effect is based on) they are not actually present on the material plane. So could you possess and animate a Voidstone as an animated object, and then just roll into people?

[Jowgen]

How would Fiend of Possession interact with Voidstones?

Graypairofsocks and Dire_Stirge have touched upon this idea in this thread. Provided the Voidstone is on the Material (since the NEP has no ethereal), I think the Fiend could certainly attempt it, but that is where things get tricky imo.

"A fiend of possession becomes part of the object it possesses, so it is no longer ethereal"

It would be very easy for a DM to rule that this lack of etherealness is sufficient to trigger the Voidstone's annihilation effect. I personally would lean that way, as possessing something very much screams "coming into contact". One might argue that becoming part of the Voidstone prevents the annihilation, as the Voidstone itself doesn't self-annihilate; but since the possession doesn't normally confer any object-inherent immunities (like mind-affecting) I don't see much merit in that view.

Now provided a Fiend can survive attempts at possessing the Voidstone (either by DM rule or due to Steadfast Determination with high enough Fort)... hmmm. It is debateable whether the Voidstone has "inherent mobility". It is almost certainly weightless, but its only means of movement is its ill-defined attraction to living things.

[Inevitability]

Graypairofsocks and Dire_Stirge have touched upon this idea in this thread. Provided the Voidstone is on the Material (since the NEP has no ethereal), I think the Fiend could certainly attempt it, but that is where things get tricky imo.

"A fiend of possession becomes part of the object it possesses, so it is no longer ethereal"

It would be very easy for a DM to rule that this lack of etherealness is sufficient to trigger the Voidstone's annihilation effect. I personally would lean that way, as possessing something very much screams "coming into contact". One might argue that becoming part of the Voidstone prevents the annihilation, as the Voidstone itself doesn't self-annihilate; but since the possession doesn't normally confer any object-inherent immunities (like mind-affecting) I don't see much merit in that view.

Now provided a Fiend can survive attempts at possessing the Voidstone (either by DM rule or due to Steadfast Determination with high enough Fort)... hmmm. It is debateable whether the Voidstone has "inherent mobility". It is almost certainly weightless, but its only means of movement is its ill-defined attraction to living things.

I am pretty sure the NEP does have an ethereal plane, at least in FR.

Source (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Negative_Energy_plane).

[Jowgen]

Should you add this to your signature?

The Handbook ("http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?480986-The-Voidstone-Arsenal-For-when-you-really-want-stuff-gone) has been made. Many thanks to everyone who contributed.