"Not all that is good walks in the light..." [PrC]

[Proven_Paradox]

The mantle variant of this class has been added to the bottom of this post


"My lord, the farmers who were not able to pay your tribute have been rounded up and put into the prisons." The guard stood before Lord Forthing rigidly, the fear of his master obvious on his face. The only thing he dreaded more than his wrath was the fate that awaited the helpless, poor folk he had been forced to gather up for that week.

Without looking up from his extravagant meal of duck seasoned with exotic spices and the finest elven wines, Jerith Forthing simply waved to the man. His new slaves would supply a few weeks labor for his silver mines before the creatures in the caves killed them, and their fate was of no interest to him. The guard left quickly, relieved to be free of his lord's gaze for a while longer. He tipped the remainder of wine in his elaborate goblet down his obese throat and slammed the cup down on the well-polished, elaborately carved oaken table. A servant hurriedly came forward and refilled the goblet. He quickly took another drink, then promptly fell over dead, the poisoned wine pooling around the vile man's corpse like blood, soaking into his silken robes.

In a nearby temple, Tamel Wryhen knelt before a shrine to Heironeous, tears streaming down her face and dripping onto her leather armor as she prayed for forgiveness for what she had just done. Forthing was among the most evil of scum on this earth, and everyone knew that those who he collected for failing to pay taxes were slain, but she also knew that the order would not condone her executing the man, especially not with poison slipped into his wine in the dark of night. No one else knew of her hand in this, but the burden of her guilt had still nearly driven her mad, and somehow she knew that someone would know, somehow. Her normally fair skin had become sickly pale, and her normally beautiful red hair hung lifelessly over her blue eyes, which were bloodshot from tears.

A set of heavy footsteps approaching her heralded the arrival of the order's captain, Toryn Pureheart. He bowed his head briefly in reverence to Heironeous, then sat in a pew near the shrine, looking on Tamel's kneeling form with a sorrowful expression. He took a long breath and began, saying, "I'm sure you've heard... The lord Forthing has been murdered, poison slipped into his wine. You wouldn't know anything about this, would you?"

The words hit Tamel like a brick to the gut. Pureheart knew. There was no avoiding it now; her time in service to the light was over, without a doubt. She stood, slowly, wiping the tears away, and turned to face her superior. To her surprise, there was another man there, sitting beside him, a man she had never seen before. She hadn't heard his approaching footfalls...

"It came to me in a dream." Toryn continued, his older face further aged by worry before her. His voice was heavy with sorrow as he continued, "A vision of you slipping a potent poison into Farthing's wine. The world is indeed better off without the man, but you have violated the code. You..." He stopped and sighed. He never liked telling others to leave like this, but he mentally reminded himself that her ending would be slightly different. With this reassurance, he looked up to her, a sad smile on his face. "You cannot continue your service here in the light. I ask that you give me your badge freely, lest I must take it from you forcefully."

She had been expecting this. Expecting it and dreading it. Assassination was not acceptable from a paladin, and redemption for this misdeed wouldn't come. Slowly, she nodded and plucked the small metal badge from her leather chest piece, taking one last longing look at her reflection in the badge before placing it in Pureheart's waiting hand. She began moving to leave the temple, but before she got far, the other figure blocked her way. She couldn't make out the man's face beneath his hood, but his build was slight yet powerful, much like her own.

With a soft, harsh voice, the man spoke. "Your service to the cause is not necessarily done, young lady. I offer you a chance to use your skills to the fullest. You can no longer serve in the light due to your acts. However, not all that is good walks in the light. Will you serve good from the shadows, with my order? The Order of the Black Wind?"


Champion of the Black Wind
REQUIREMENTS

Alignment: Lawful Good

Skills: Sense Motive 9 ranks, Hide 4 ranks, Move Silently 4 ranks

Special: Sneak attack +2d6 class ability and (if using Fax's paladin variant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33551)) Grace mantle of faith and one other mantle or (if using the core paladin) Divine Health class feature.
One cannot become a Champion of the Black Wind if they have taken the Purity, Honesty, Honor, or Justice mantle of faith.
To qualify to become a Champion of the Black Wind, one must assassinate a well-known, powerful evil person without being discovered by the general populace.

Class Skills
The Champion's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).

Skill points at each level: 6 + intelligence modifier

Hitdice: d8

The Champion of the Black Wind; non-Mantle progression
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+2|
+2| Sneak Attack +1d6, Smite Evil +1/day, Black Wind Smite

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+3|
+3|Bless Poison 1/day, Divine Senses

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3| Sneak Attack +2d6, Divine Stealth

4th|
+3|
+4|
+4|
+4| Smite Evil +2/day, Favor of the Black Wind

5th|
+3|
+4|
+4|
+4| Sneak Attack +3d6, Bless Poison 2/day

6th|
+4|
+5|
+5|
+5|Hide in Plain Sight

7th|
+5|
+5|
+5|
+5| Sneak Attack +4d6, Smite Evil +3/day

8th|
+6|
+6|
+6|
+6| Bless Poison 3/day, Tools to do the Deed

9th|
+6|
+6|
+6|
+6| Sneak Attack +5d6, Blessing of the Black Wind

10th|
+7|
+7|
+7|
+7| Smite Evil +4/day, The Black Wind Howls[/table]

Sneak Attack (Ex): This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage dealt increases by +1d6 at first level and every odd level afterward (3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th). If a Champion gets a sneak attack bonus from another source, the bonuses on damage stack.

Smite Evil (Su): This is exactly like the paladin ability of the same name. The Champion gains additional smites per day at first level and every three levels afterward (4th, 7th, and 10th). Champion levels stack with paladin levels for damage from a successful smiting.

Black Wind Smite (Su): When ever a Champion uses a smite and also adds sneak attack damage to the attack, the damage added by the smite is doubled. For example, a rogue 3/ paladin 4/ Champion 2 would do an extra 12 damage when using smite and sneak attack at the same time, rather than 6. This ability does not function if the Champion is wearing medium or heavy armor.

Bless Poison (Su): When applying poison, a Champion may take some extra time to bless the poison by mixing a few drops of holy water with it (a full round action). Poison blessed in this way has no effect on good creatures that are subject to it. Any evil creature that is subject the poison's effect gets a –4 sacred penalty to their fortitude save to resist the poison's effects for both primary and secondary damage. In addition, all damage done by the poison is considered maximized on evil subjects. Holy poison functions normally on neutral targets. The Champion cannot accidentally poison herself while handling poison blessed in this way, nor can she accidentally poison herself while applying the blessing. A single vial of holy water contains enough liquid to be used for a single blessing with this ability. At second level, the Champion may use this ability once per day, and gains an additional use per day every three levels afterwards (5th and 8th).

Divine Senses (Su): Starting at 2nd level, a Champion may add her charisma modifier to all spot, listen, and search checks. This ability does not function if the Champion is wearing medium or heavy armor.

Divine Stealth (Su): Starting at 3rd level, a Champion may add her charisma modifier to all hide and move silently checks. This ability does not function if the Champion is wearing medium or heavy armor.

Favor of the Black Wind: Starting at 4th level, a number of times per day equal to the Champion's charisma modifier, she may cast Darkness as a spell-like ability. The Champion's sight is not affected by this darkness. The Champion also gains low-light vision permanently.

Hide in Plain Sight (Su): The divine force the Champion serves subtly distracts nearby creatures from looking in her direction. Starting at 6th level, the Champion can use the Hide skill even when being observed. This ability does not function if the Champion is wearing medium or heavy armor.

Tools to do the Deed (Su): Starting at 8th level, the Champion may use all of her daily uses of Bless poison to spontaneously generate poison by the grace of her deity. This ability cannot be used if the Champion has used any of her daily uses of Bless Poison. The Champion may use this ability to produce an amount of poison of a GP value equal to her charisma modifier x 200 GP. Multiple doses of poison can be produced this way. All doses are produced as if under the effect of Bless Poison. The poison loses its potency after 24 hours. She may choose to generate the poison into a specified container or applied to whatever delivery agent she chooses, but must divide multiple doses up from a single container.

Blessing of the Black Wind (Su): Starting at 9th level, a number of times per day equal to the Champion's charisma modifier, she may cast Deeper Darkness as a spell-like ability. The Champion's sight is not affected by this darkness. The Champion also permanently gains darkvision 60 ft. or extends her existing darkvision by 60 ft. The Champion's darkvision (including any she had before this ability) ignores magical darkness.

The Black Wind Howls (Su): At 10th level, a Champion has become the master of serving the Light from the Darkness and has earned the personal favor of her deity, who provides her with a new form to better carry out her grim work. The Champion's type changes to Outsider (Native). She also gains the Good subtype. A number of times per day equal to her charisma modifier, for a number of rounds equal to half her character level, she may transform into a being of shadows. Transforming is a move action and provokes attacks of opportunity. While in this shadow form, she gains a +10 circumstance bonus to hide and move silently rolls. Also, all attacks have a 50% chance to miss (true seeing negates this effect). In addition, she gains a bite attack that deals 1d6 + strength modifier damage. Once per day, she may choose to have this bite deliver a potent poison that attacks an evil subject's soul; if the subject is evil, they must make a fortitude save (DC = Champion's character level + Champion's charisma modifier) or die. Good and neutral subjects are unaffected by this poison. A subject who dies to this poison must succeed a will save with the same DC or else be unable to be resurrected by mortal means (even wish or miracle). While in this shadow form, a Champion may also sprout shadowy, translucent wings as a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunities. These wings grant a fly speed of 60 ft. with good maneuverability. The Champion cannot fly on the same turn as they sprout wings.

The Champion of the Black Wind: Mantle Progression Varient
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+2|
+2| Sneak Attack +1d6, Black Wind Smite

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+3|
+3|Bless Poison 1/day, Smite Evil +1/day

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3| Divine Senses, Mantle of Faith

4th|
+3|
+4|
+4|
+4| Smite Evil +2/day, Sneak Attack +2d6

5th|
+3|
+4|
+4|
+4| Favor of the Black Wind, Bless Poison 2/day

6th|
+4|
+5|
+5|
+5| Smite Evil +2/day, Mantle of Faith

7th|
+5|
+5|
+5|
+5| Hide in Plain Sight, Sneak Attack +3d6

8th|
+6|
+6|
+6|
+6| Bless Poison 3/day, Tools to do the Deed

9th|
+6|
+6|
+6|
+6| Blessing of the Black Wind, Mantle of Faith

10th|
+7|
+7|
+7|
+7| Smite Evil +3/day, The Black Wind Howls, Sneak Attack +4d6[/table]

The Mantle Variant is very similar to the original, but loses some class features in favor of gaining mantles as a paladin (must start with Fax's How-It-Should-Be Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33551)).

Sneak Attack progression still begins at level 1, but increases by 1d6 every three levels afterwards (+2d6 at 4th level, +3d6 at 7th, and +4d6 at 10th).

Smite progression instead begins at level 2, and increases every four levels thereafter (for +2/day at 6th, and +3/day at 10th).

Divine Senses is gained at level 3 instead of 2.

Divine Stealth is lost.

Favor of the Black Wind is now gained at 5th level instead of 4th.

Hide in Plain Sight is now gained at 7th level instead of 6th.

In exchange, the Champion may choose a Mantle of Faith at 3rd, 6th, and 9th level from the following:

Abstinence, Charity, Humility, Mercy, Peace, Prudence, Redemption, Temperance, Valor, Alliance, Conviction, Diligence, Patience, Perseverance, Piety, Deceit**, Discretion*, and Luck*.

*Because the Champion treads a blurry line in serving law and good from darkness, she receives access to a limited number of mantles. However, among these mantles a very small number that are normally only available to evil or chaotic paladins.

**The Deceit mantle the Champion has access to is slightly different. The Champion may not place her allies in danger to protect herself, unlike the Deceit mantle that an evil paladin would have access to.

((Thanks to Dani for helping with ideas and proofreading.))

[Reptilius]

Oooh, I've always wanted a good paladin/Rogue class. I approve! But something bothers me about Bless Poison. I can't place it though.

[Miraqariftsky]

Sooo, this does not necessarily mean that the paladin has fallen?

Other than that question, this work is great! Keep it up.

[SurlySeraph]

Divine Senses and Divine Stealth use your Charisma modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier, not in addition to it, right? If not, that would be insanely overpowered. They're fairly strong as it is, but not excessive. I think it might make more sense to use your Wisdom modifier, since that's what gives you your divine spells, but that would aggravate the paladin's already annoying multiple ability dependency. I'd also slow down the Smite Evil increase - as it is, a Paladin 10/ Champion of the Black Wind 10 has 7 Smite Evils per day, while a Paladin 20 only has 5. Since you don't give them spell progression or progression in Turn Undead, that could make up for it depending on the campaign.

[Raum]

Some questions to consider:
- Saves: Are three good saves appropriate? I'm not certain they aren't, but it seems powerful.
- Bless Poison: This seems overly powerful. A -4 to saves is potentially game breaking. Add the maximize and you have nearly certain one shot kills with the better poisons. It also needs some clarification. Can the Champion poison herself before (or while) applying the Holy Water to the poison? How many applications does she get from a single dose of Holy Water?
- Favor of the Black Wind: Does the Champion gain low-light vision permanently or just for the duration of the Darkness?
- Blessing of the Black Wind: Does the Champions gain darkvision for the duration of Deeper Darkness or permanently? Does the "ignore magical darkness" only apply to the 60' darkvision gained via this ability or to all darkvision the character has?
- The Black Wind Howls: Does the Champion gain a 50% miss chance against everything? Or will ghost touch weapons hit? If the latter, it might be easier to say the champion gains the incorporeal subtype for the duration. The poison might be better off following standard DC guidelines. It's overpowered as it stands. DCs typically don't scale evenly with level. If the Champion can't fly on the same turn as she grows wings, why is it a swift action? It sounds like it should be taking more time.

I like the class' flavor and general abilities. It looks like a fun class to play.

[Xuincherguixe]

I like the concept. I'm not experienced enough with the game to say for certain if it's balanced or not mind you.

But, good concept.

[Proven_Paradox]

First off, thanks for all of your comments so far.


Sooo, this does not necessarily mean that the paladin has fallen?

That is correct. This would be a special case.


Divine Senses and Divine Stealth use your Charisma modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier, not in addition to it, right? If not, that would be insanely overpowered. They're fairly strong as it is, but not excessive.

Could you explain to me how that's over-powered exactly? I see it as covering for the ranks in such skills that the paladin levels are going to leave the Champion lacking. It seems to me that this puts them back on the same level with pure rogues in stealth.


I think it might make more sense to use your Wisdom modifier, since that's what gives you your divine spells, but that would aggravate the paladin's already annoying multiple ability dependency.

Paladin spellcasting is rather unimportant anyway, and this class would have an unattractive case of MAD if I made some abilities dependent on wisdom as well.


I'd also slow down the Smite Evil increase - as it is, a Paladin 10/ Champion of the Black Wind 10 has 7 Smite Evils per day, while a Paladin 20 only has 5. Since you don't give them spell progression or progression in Turn Undead, that could make up for it depending on the campaign.

Well, it'd be a neat trick to get into this class without rogue levels like that. Also, I've created this to go with Fax's variant (which I'll be adding a link to now) more than the core paladin, and the variant gets more smites per day. Yes, a Champion could end up having more smites per day than the paladin, but as you said, they don't get spellcasting, turn undead, or lay on hands, so I think it's an even trade.


- Saves: Are three good saves appropriate? I'm not certain they aren't, but it seems powerful.

Good reflex are there for rogue side, and good will saves are there for the paladin. The only thing I would even consider making lower than good saves would be fortitude, but then I don't think any class that deals with poison a lot and doesn't get bonus saves to poison should be without good fortitude saves.


- Bless Poison: This seems overly powerful. A -4 to saves is potentially game breaking. Add the maximize and you have nearly certain one shot kills with the better poisons. It also needs some clarification. Can the Champion poison herself before (or while) applying the Holy Water to the poison? How many applications does she get from a single dose of Holy Water?

I want this to be really powerful, because other than the Black Wind Smite, Bless Poison is this class's definitive feature. In my games, players haven't resorted to poison use very often, and I want to make poison use worth the money. Frankly, I think if a Champion shells out the money for some wyvern poison, they should reap the benefits. Would decreases the save penalty to -2 sit better with you, or is the problem more the maximized damage in your mind?

The Champion cannot poison herself while applying the holy water, though before is fair game. One vial of holy water is usually enough for three uses of Bless Poison. I'll add this into the description once I'm done with this post.


- Favor of the Black Wind: Does the Champion gain low-light vision permanently or just for the duration of the Darkness?

Permanently. I'll clarify that after I finish this post.


- Blessing of the Black Wind: Does the Champions gain darkvision for the duration of Deeper Darkness or permanently? Does the "ignore magical darkness" only apply to the 60' darkvision gained via this ability or to all darkvision the character has?

Again, permanently, and ignoring the magical darkness applies to all darkvision (for the sake of simplicity more than anything).


- The Black Wind Howls: Does the Champion gain a 50% miss chance against everything? Or will ghost touch weapons hit? If the latter, it might be easier to say the champion gains the incorporeal subtype for the duration. The poison might be better off following standard DC guidelines. It's overpowered as it stands. DCs typically don't scale evenly with level. If the Champion can't fly on the same turn as she grows wings, why is it a swift action? It sounds like it should be taking more time.

Ghost touch can still miss, but I think I'll add in that true-seeing negates that effect. As for the poison, I'm hesitant to lower the DC because at that level anything you'd use it on is going to have good saves, and if it gets lowered much it'll never work.

[Mornir]

The addition of Charisma mod although giving the Champion of the Black Wind an equal skill level as a rogue can result in some "broken scenarios". Keep in mind that most Charisma based (especially if the rogue was a feint rogue) have a +3 mod. A Skill Focus with any skill gives you a +3 if I'm not mistaken, but feats like Athletic, and "Random other word that combines two skills for a plus two for each" give a plus two bonus. You're essentially giving two and a half feats away here.
Also, the prerequisite of 1d6 sneak attack seems to imply the "not fallen I sware!!" paladin either a history in roguish behavior or else a paladin resorting to roguish means after their misdeeds. If it is the former it would seem to make sense, but if the latter then it seems that the paladin has fallen to attacking those whom cannot defend themselves against his or her blows.
Also, this prestige seems to have a flavor of "one hit, one kill" with its increased damage when using its Sneak Attack and Smite (two potent damage dealing abilities) and its -4 plus maximized damage against evil creatures.
Comparing the CotBW with other roguish with divine flavored prestige classes (ie: Complete Scoundrel's Battleworn Grey Guard, or the Temple Raider of Olidammara) the CotBW makes them look lacking.. but that's my two cents.

[DanielLC]

It doesn't look very lawful. I'd make it (as far as fluff is concerned) a chaotic version of the blackgaurd. That is, instead of a paladin that became evil, it's a paladin that became chaotic.

[MagFlare]

I really like this PrC. I really like the vignette that sets up the fluff, too, even though it uses the phrase "obese throat," which sort of weirds me out for some reason.


It doesn't look very lawful. I'd make it (as far as fluff is concerned) a chaotic version of the blackgaurd. That is, instead of a paladin that became evil, it's a paladin that became chaotic.

I don't think that the paladin's moral code is the be-all end-all of having a lawful alignment. Heck, poisoning a dude's beverage requires foresight and planning - lawful traits - and there's nothing else in the class, mechanical or fluff-wise, that seems to oppose lawfulness. The paladin is abandoning his code, true, but there's no reason he can't immediately adopt another, equally lawful (but more poison-friendly) code.

I mean, if sneaking in and taking out a guy covertly is a chaotic act, then Batman must be chaotic.


Divine Senses and Divine Stealth use your Charisma modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier, not in addition to it, right? If not, that would be insanely overpowered.

It's a pretty big bonus, true, but these are the sorts of compromises necessary when you're trying to make a PrC that allows a multiclass rogue (Dex and Int-based)/paladin (Wis and Cha and Str and, jeez, Con, too-based) character. Let's face it: if you need high scores in all six stats to make your character playable, something's got to give.

I'm not sure it's excessive. It's not as though you'll have been putting ranks in Search, Hide, and Move Silently when you were taking paladin levels. Paladins generally don't have a lot of extra skill points to throw around, even if these weren't all cross-class skills that are dependent on ability scores most paladins consider dump stats.

Since the average Champion of the Black Wind is still going to be worse at Hiding, Moving Silently, and Searching than the average rogue, I think it's fair.

[Macrovore]

Good reflex are there for rogue side, and good will saves are there for the paladin. The only thing I would even consider making lower than good saves would be fortitude, but then I don't think any class that deals with poison a lot and doesn't get bonus saves to poison should be without good fortitude saves.


Paladins get good fortitude saves, not will. I'd personally reduce the will save.

[Proven_Paradox]

And yet another of my threads gets a revival... Interesting. Not that I'm complaining.


The addition of Charisma mod although giving the Champion of the Black Wind an equal skill level as a rogue can result in some "broken scenarios". Keep in mind that most Charisma based (especially if the rogue was a feint rogue) have a +3 mod. A Skill Focus with any skill gives you a +3 if I'm not mistaken, but feats like Athletic, and "Random other word that combines two skills for a plus two for each" give a plus two bonus. You're essentially giving two and a half feats away here.

...What? A +3 mod? Are you talking about the paladin having a 16+ charisma or some other bonus that I'm not aware of? If the paladin has a high charisma, they should reap the benefits, and as MagFlare said, the average rogue is going to be a considerably better sneaker than the average Champion.


Also, the prerequisite of 1d6 sneak attack seems to imply the "not fallen I sware!!" paladin either a history in roguish behavior or else a paladin resorting to roguish means after their misdeeds. If it is the former it would seem to make sense, but if the latter then it seems that the paladin has fallen to attacking those whom cannot defend themselves against his or her blows.

I don't see anything in the SRD that says a paladin can't gain the flanking benefits to get a sneak attack in. It does specifically say not using poison, though, which is part of what got me thinking about this class.


Code of Conduct

A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.


Also, this prestige seems to have a flavor of "one hit, one kill" with its increased damage when using its Sneak Attack and Smite (two potent damage dealing abilities) and its -4 plus maximized damage against evil creatures.

The only time the -4 and maximized damage happens is with poison. The damage from the weapon isn't maximized. Is that what you were thinking?


Comparing the CotBW with other roguish with divine flavored prestige classes (ie: Complete Scoundrel's Battleworn Grey Guard, or the Temple Raider of Olidammara) the CotBW makes them look lacking.. but that's my two cents.

I haven't seen the Grey Guard, but the Temple Raider of Olidammara is intended for clerics, if I recall correctly, and cleric and paladin are so different that I'm not sure comparing the two is valid. I don't remember the Raider's specifics, but I do remember looking it over and thinking it kinda sucked anyway.


It doesn't look very lawful. I'd make it (as far as fluff is concerned) a chaotic version of the blackgaurd. That is, instead of a paladin that became evil, it's a paladin that became chaotic.

I disagree. MagFlare basically said it as well as I could have.


Paladins get good fortitude saves, not will.

Which, frankly, strikes me as borderline retarded. A pure, holy warrior should be good at resisting temptation, magical or otherwise.

And anyway, when making this class, I was looking mainly at Fax's paladin fix, which does get good will saves. That's where that comment came from; my apologies for not making that clear.

[Renegade Paladin]

Also, the prerequisite of 1d6 sneak attack seems to imply the "not fallen I sware!!" paladin either a history in roguish behavior or else a paladin resorting to roguish means after their misdeeds. If it is the former it would seem to make sense, but if the latter then it seems that the paladin has fallen to attacking those whom cannot defend themselves against his or her blows.
What does having sneak attack have to do with being fallen? :smallconfused:

[Yuudai]

>>wait are you saying batman is not chaotic? but he is. very much so

[knightsaline]

I have a problem with the use of holy water. Namely, portioning it. If a CotBW uses 2 of the 3 portions of a vial of holy water, could they use the third portion as a grenade weapon?This is as bad as having multiple dose potions.

The poisons thing can be circumvented by Ravages. Just say that the holy water transforms the poison into a ravage. the downside to ravaging a poison is that a Ravage is weaker than a poison of the same cost. Ravages have to be weaker, either by doing a minimal amount of lethal damage or shutting down DEX or STR for a short time or doing masses of non lethal damage.


BTW, shutting down STR or DEX effectively stops movement, therefore being able to bring the evil to justice. never EVER allow a ravage to shut down CON. doing so kills the target.

I find your lack of code of conduct disturbing. Paladin PrCs usually have a code they have to uphold in addition to their paladinic code. You could make a first level class feature called Unbinding and Rebinding. Basically, this would allow the paladin to give up his old code and take up a new one. If the DM trusts the player, the player could make up the code, as long as at least 75% of the new code affects the way he plays. the other 25% can be things like "If I see a cute kitten, I must stroke it" or "I must not eat anything purple". Who says all paladinic codes have to be "Kill evil, Stay Lawful, Seriously prod buttock." I prefer my pladins to be LN, therefore, they are the law. Theres always room for a CG paladin with the code "I must eat meat every day" and "Back stabbing makes baby pelor cry"

[Renegade Paladin]

Ravages are just a plain lazy mechanic. They were put into the Book of Exalted Deeds because the designers didn't have enough imagination to do anything other than make good aligned mirror copies of everything in the Book of Vile Darkness, poisons and diseases included. This is fine how it is.

As for the holy water thing, the answer is obvious. Once you've used it for this purpose, there isn't enough left to make an effective grenade.

[Proven_Paradox]

Actually, I think I'll make it so that one use of holy water = one use of bless poison. It's not that big a deal; by the time you can get into this PrC, holy water's hardly a drop in the bucket as far as cost goes. Especially if you have the money to buy a lot of poison.

I haven't read the Book of Exalted Deeds and therefore don't know what you're talking about for Ravages. It sounds like, basically, "poison a paladin can use." Which is just lame.

And, the thing is, this is a holy assassin. Killing the target comes up. Paladins don't exactly mete out justice by ALMOST beating a foe to death and taking them back to jail; most of the time, if a paladin is in combat with a foe that won't repent, it's deadly. At least, in my games.

As for the code, I think that sort of thing should be left to the DM whose player is running a character with this PrC.


>>wait are you saying batman is not chaotic? but he is. very much so

I disagree, myself, but that's a subject for another thread.

[Riffington]

I mean, if sneaking in and taking out a guy covertly is a chaotic act, then Batman must be chaotic.



Batman is chaotic. Best test of lawful vs chaotic is "let's say you ran a business. Would you work to make sure the business's rules promoted people in a fair and efficient way, or would you instead use your personal power to promote people you yourself know are competent."

Batman, conveniently enough, owns a business. He spends no thought on its bylaws and procedures. He occasionally sees a highly competent guy there, and throws projects and money at him. He frees those people from any kind of bureaucratic restrictions. Sometimes he sees a charity he likes, so he throws some money that direction.

Same way he goes about crimefighting. He has no routine, no priority action areas, no preventive work. He goes out riding, happens to see some violence, and so he goes and stops it. He doesn't get bogged down in the legalities. Aftermath is left to the kind of people who don't get bored with aftermath.

The Grey Guard should be LN, and this should be CG.

[Proven_Paradox]

Again, I disagree about Batman being chaotic (I think he's neutral good myself) but that's a debate for another thread.

What makes this class lawful in my mind is that they'll still be fighting for law. The law is still a major part of what the uphold; just as much as good. They simply do it using significantly more underhanded means than a paladin would. This would be clearer if I wrote a code of conduct of some sort... I'm considering doing that now.

[Fax Celestis]

Aw. No mantle progression? I am a sad panda.

[Proven_Paradox]

I'm sorry, Fax... Like I said to you before, it's already got a lot. I think I'll write up a variant that trades some smite and sneak attack progression for mantles; maybe after my game tonight.

[edit] Scratch that. Mantle variant added to the bottom of the original post.

[Fax Celestis]

Wootsauce.

[Riffington]

What makes this class lawful in my mind is that they'll still be fighting for law. The law is still a major part of what the uphold; just as much as good.

Chaotic people can fight for the Law. Give a chaotic evil thug a police badge and tell him he can only bully chaotic evil thugs - he'll be fighting for the Law but that doesn't change his own alignment. If he finds his greatest joy in seeing the look on a drug dealer's face when she sees she's been busted and is going to jail... still chaotic evil.

A lawful person does not believe that the ends justify the means. A lawful person believes that properly-made rules are the way to better society. Work for change in the laws, sure. But to go outside those laws and become a vigilante - that way leads to chaos or evil.
It may be the case that a ruler is so vile that he must be overthrown. But a Lawful person must have the community or Church behind him to do this. If you go about eliminating people "for the good of society" without actually consulting said society... you aren't Lawful any more.
I suppose if you followed orders implicitly, and were under the direct supervision of a good deity, you could then be Lawful Good... but your deity would have to be Chaotic Good to operate like that.

[Renegade Paladin]

Oh, this is ridiculous. There's absolutely nothing that says a paladin can't accomplish his goals through stealth. In fact, the only thing I see wrong here is that the character in the introduction used poison as her mode of assassination.

[Riffington]

Oh, this is ridiculous. There's absolutely nothing that says a paladin can't accomplish his goals through stealth. In fact, the only thing I see wrong here is that the character in the introduction used poison as her mode of assassination.

True, nothing is wrong with stealth per se. For example, when hunting. Or to sneak out of a hostage situation and get the police. Or many other occasions.

But to assassinate the lawful ruler of a place is not lawful, however mean she might be. And if a lawful person should be so provoked as to commit a capital crime such as this... he would admit the crime and take whatever punishment or reward the next ruler demands. To keep it a secret is to seal the deal and stay Chaotic.

[Neon Knight]

True, nothing is wrong with stealth per se. For example, when hunting. Or to sneak out of a hostage situation and get the police. Or many other occasions.

But to assassinate the lawful ruler of a place is not lawful, however mean she might be. And if a lawful person should be so provoked as to commit a capital crime such as this... he would admit the crime and take whatever punishment or reward the next ruler demands. To keep it a secret is to seal the deal and stay Chaotic.

And thus lawful rouges and spies become walking paradoxes.

[Riffington]

Depends what you mean by rogue.
If you mean thief, then no, thieves are not lawful. If a rogue is just an expert++, then they certainly can.

As to spies, very few are lawful. The ones that are work for a properly constituted authority. For example, there is nothing inherently chaotic about a man who works for the government infiltrating a criminal organization or a foreign nation. A chaotic man would be more likely to be good at it, but a lawful man is not an inherent contradiction there.

[Neon Knight]

What is "properly constituted authority"? Is not one man's great leader another's tyrant?

[Riffington]

A tyrant or great leader can both examples of properly constituted authority. It has to do with the convention of the land in terms of how succession passes. In the example above, there is no suggestion that Forthing is an imposter or pretender, only that he is a vile man.

There may be grey areas. For example, if a king's younger son seizes power, expelling the elder and then passing laws forbidding his return; the elder returns with an army ten years later. Is the younger still King, or does the elder's return immediately make him king and annul the younger's laws? In such an unclear case a lawful man might choose either side.
[this only goes so far - Robin Hood was still chaotic good even if he believed in his heart that Richard the Lionheart would one day return and undo all Nottingham's woes.]

Now, Good can certainly be a larger issue than Law. If the rightful ruler is sufficiently oppressive, a lawful man may rebel. George Washington was a Lawful Good rebel. Such a rebellion should be open, or the rebel will soon become neutral or chaotic. Certainly once it has succeeded, there can be no justification for subterfuge - if he wishes to be lawful, he should face judgment (whether it be reward or punishment) for his actions during the revolution.

[Neon Knight]

Why? If open rebellion leads to utter annihilation and the failure of the revolt, can one truly call a man Chaotic for choosing stealth? Chivalry and honor are not the only kinds of law.

Also: Does Lawful have to mean submission to an outside authority? Is a man alone in the wild incapable of being lawful by virtue of their being no authority to submit to? Can a man not rule himself?

[Riffington]

Why? If open rebellion leads to utter annihilation and the failure of the revolt, can one truly call a man Chaotic for choosing stealth? Chivalry and honor are not the only kinds of law.

Also: Does Lawful have to mean submission to an outside authority? Is a man alone in the wild incapable of being lawful by virtue of their being no authority to submit to? Can a man not rule himself?

There can be times when a revolt requires subterfuge. This involves non-lawful acts, though a lawful good person may under rare circumstances such as these perform non-lawful acts and remain lawful as long as he sincerely regrets having to do so. But later, when the revolt succeeds, he must then face judgment. Now there is no justification for further subterfuge.

For a man alone in the wild, lawful and chaotic are words with no real meaning. Lawful/chaotic has to do with your relationship towards community and rules.

An absolute dictator can be lawful or chaotic, but she has a community to interact with. Dictator test (LE vs CE - different tests would apply for good rulers): you buy a watch from a mildly annoying man. You happen not to be carrying money, but state that he will be paid. LE: he'll get his money. CE: depends on your mood.

[Neon Knight]

Why is the act of stealth non-lawful? What if one took an oath to be stealthy, to be unseen, to leave no trace? Would it not merely be the fulfillment of your word to do so, and thus lawful?

And I can think of oh so many ways a LE person could insure that watchmaker never saw a cent. Observe:

LE Dude: And just sign here and the transaction will be complete.
Watchmaker: Oh, thank you sir! Now I can finally retire!
LE Dude: In 100 years.
Watchmaker: What?
LE Dude: That's when I'll pay you. That's what the contract says. Payment to be fulfilled in 100 years.
Watchmaker: But I'm 91!
LE Dude: And with no heirs to inherit the debt.
Watchmaker: ....
LE Dude: And if we have no further business, I'll be going.

How is a monk lawful, then? There is nothing about being a monk that implies servitude to the community or obedience to it. Being a monk is about conquering yourself. It is about self discipline and self regimentation. This is what makes a monk lawful.

[Riffington]

1. I have never said stealth is nonlawful. It just has a lot more nonlawful uses than lawful ones.

2. Oaths only tip you towards law, they don't make you lawful. If you take an oath to beat up everyone who pisses you off, and follow it, you'll be CE within a week.

3. A LE person can make oppressive contracts, yes. But a LE dictator who just says "you'll get paid" to a watchmaker as he walks off with the watch will pay him reasonably promptly. He has plenty of money, and he has plenty of servants to send on a minor chore like that.

4. "There is nothing about being a monk that implies servitude to the community or obedience to it."
History, man. D&D based something on history. Obedience to one's master is the first skill a monk learns. This is why kung fu movies require such extreme back stories (destruction of one's temple, etc).

A warblade is also about conquering yourself, self-discipline, etc. They tend to be chaotic. The difference is that warblades use all that training and self-discipline to seek glory. Monks use it to protect their communities and/or monasteries, and to follow the teachings of their masters.

[Neon Knight]

1. I have never said stealth is nonlawful. It just has a lot more nonlawful uses than lawful ones.

You have heavily implied it. I contend that stealth his entirely neutral. Lawful and chaotic are about ends, not means.



2. Oaths only tip you towards law, they don't make you lawful. If you take an oath to beat up everyone who pisses you off, and follow it, you'll be CE within a week.


What is the law but a communally accepted oath? Also, heck no would you be Chaotic. Evil maybe, but not Chaotic. Chaotic is, by it's very definition, inconsistent. How is being consistent chaotic?

So, the Paladin who swears to kill every evil he meets will also become chaotic? How is this paladin different from a LE Knight of Hextor who swears "Every man who defiles or denies my honor will die?" Both men swear that those who offend them (I assume a Paladin finds evil offensive or objectionable) will suffer.



3. A LE person can make oppressive contracts, yes. But a LE dictator who just says "you'll get paid" to a watchmaker as he walks off with the watch will pay him reasonably promptly. He has plenty of money, and he has plenty of servants to send on a minor chore like that.


But why bother spending money on it? If he is the dictator, he is, after all, the law itself. Perhaps the dictator considers the honor of having his watch selected by the great leader sufficient payment. "You'll get paid" is a horrifically vague statement. When will you be paid? With what? LE is all about loophole exploitation.



4. "There is nothing about being a monk that implies servitude to the community or obedience to it."
History, man. D&D based something on history. Obedience to one's master is the first skill a monk learns. This is why kung fu movies require such extreme back stories (destruction of one's temple, etc).

A warblade is also about conquering yourself, self-discipline, etc. They tend to be chaotic. The difference is that warblades use all that training and self-discipline to seek glory. Monks use it to protect their communities and/or monasteries, and to follow the teachings of their masters.

So the wandering monk who journeys alone to find perfection is chaotic and impossible in DnD?



A monk may feel a deep connection to her monastery or school, to the monk who taught her, to the lineage into which she was trained, or all of these. Some monks, however, have no sense of connection other than to their path of personal development.

These monks are just as lawful as the dudes hanging around the monastery. They are merely lawful to themselves instead.

Also: The Warblade's fluff is very, very silly, and totally unnecessary. It really should have said Warblade: See Fighter. Just like Swordsage should say Swordsage: See Monk and Crusader: See Cleric and/or Paladin (preferably Fax Celestis Version.)

Another point: Check out the Monk's opening paragraph. Numerous mentions of moving unseen and striking down evil unnoticed. They make good spies, assassins, and infiltrators. A class that loses its ability to advance levels if it becomes lawful engages in stealth regularly, as a matter of course.

Another point: Ninja. Very, very lawful. Also very sneaky. Stealth only is chaotic or more chaotic inclined if lawful is European Chivalry.

[Riffington]

Lawful and chaotic are about ends, not means.
This is precisely why you are confused. They are about means, not ends.



So, the Paladin who swears to kill every evil he meets will also become chaotic? How is this paladin different from a LE Knight of Hextor who swears "Every man who defiles or denies my honor will die?"
Because of human nature. The man who beats up everyone who annoys him will find more and more people annoying. He will quickly become a bully. The Paladin's case depends on how often you see evil, etc - very campaign dependent. The Knight of Hextor is actually probably in the clear. Once he kills a couple people, the rest stop defiling his honor.





But why bother spending money on it?
Because he runs a country where people pay for merchandise rather than steal it. He would chop the hands off a common thief, and he'll pay for what he takes.



So the wandering monk who journeys alone to find perfection is chaotic and impossible in DnD?

You must have misread me. If he journeys alone to find perfection, as taught by the philosophy of his monastery, he could well be lawful. He is still following his master's teachings. It's just rare that such a monk would find much use for kung fu on his journeys (except in self defense or defense of others).



Also: The Warblade's fluff is very, very silly, and totally unnecessary.
Read the Iliad. The "sulking in his tent" reference was one of the best pieces of fluff since WOTC took over.



Another point: Ninja. Very, very lawful.
I (and the official class description) disagree with you.
"Most Ninjas follow their own beliefs rather than the dictates of a noble or magistrate, and therefore more ninjas are chaotic than lawful."

[Neon Knight]

This is precisely why you are confused. They are about means, not ends.


I can only reply that I believe the opposite true.

Consider this: We have the Kingdom of Phu Man Du, a good little kingdom. The rulers there shower their peasants with food and care. Poverty is virtually non-existent. Everyone is equal. Everyone helps everyone else in their time of need.

This is all achieved by a magical artifact in the center of the town. One day, a man robed in white walks up to the artifact and shatters it. The little society begins to collapse.

Meanwhile, a few miles over, Ming the Merciless broods on his throne. He has desired the kingdom of Phu Man Du to spread his philosophy of harsh Social Darwinism and "The strong survive, and the weak perish." Also, the people of Phu Man Du refer to him as "Ming the Meanie." That cheesed him off as well.

A white robed man presents himself to the cruel Emperor. He tells him that Phu Man Du is ripe for the conquering. Ming claims the city and implements his policies.

The white robed man, a fervent believer in the same philosophies as man, returns home happy.

The white robed man, under your definition, would be Chaotic. He destroyed order. Under my definition, he is Lawful, because he did not destroy order, he took the current order and replaced it with something more to his tastes. He is evil as heck, but Lawful.



Because of human nature. The man who beats up everyone who annoys him will find more and more people annoying. He will quickly become a bully. The Paladin's case depends on how often you see evil, etc - very campaign dependent. The Knight of Hextor is actually probably in the clear. Once he kills a couple people, the rest stop defiling his honor.


I don't quite get what you are saying here. Bullying is somehow chaotic? I thought being a bully was just evil. Is the action only chaotic if their is resistance? Is killing or harming people chaotic? I don't see what your point is.




Because he runs a country where people pay for merchandise rather than steal it. He would chop the hands off a common thief, and he'll pay for what he takes.


Does he? Perhaps his society is a caste based system where the high have the lawful right to take what they please and only commoners can steal. Or perhaps he is merely LE, which is twisting the laws for personal gain?



You must have misread me. If he journeys alone to find perfection, as taught by the philosophy of his monastery, he could well be lawful. He is still following his master's teachings. It's just rare that such a monk would find much use for kung fu on his journeys (except in self defense or defense of others).


No, you misread me. Allow Kasrkin Puppet theater to explain:
:smallmad: ((Nhuck Corris)): The true path to enlightenment is standing around town acting as a guard.
:smallcool: ((Lruce Bee)): I disagree. The truth path to enlightenment is found only through wandering and experiencing the world.
:smallmad: You dare defy me?
:smallcool: I do not defy you. I merely follow a different path.
:smallmad: We must fight!
((Outrageous Awesome Kung-Fu Fight))

But I digress. Lruce is just as lawful as his ex-master Nhuck. He merely follows a different law.

By the way, does this mean that someone who creates a path for others to follow is chaotic?



Read the Iliad. The "sulking in his tent" reference was one of the best pieces of fluff since WOTC took over.


I was referring to the fact that the Warblade is just a fighter replacement and they should really stop pretending otherwise. He is, and is commonly used as, a Fighter in all respects fluff wise by many people.



I (and the official class description) disagree with you.
"Most Ninjas follow their own beliefs rather than the dictates of a noble or magistrate, and therefore more ninjas are chaotic than lawful."

I was not referring to the atrocity of a class, which is, by the way, utterly pointless mechanically and... fluffily, I guess. A Ninja is just a fancy name for a Rogue specializing in killing people.

Digression aside, I was referring to the pop culture image of ninjas as honorable sneaky folk who assassinate people under the cover of night, obeying a code of strict obedience to their organization that includes suicide to avoid capture, no mercy towards targets, and the accomplishment of the mission at any cost.

Also, the person who wrote that should be shot. Following your own beliefs is in no way Chaotic. Was the Buddha being Chaotic as he forged the philosophy of Buddhism?

[Riffington]

I can only reply that I believe the opposite true.
Why? Don't most organizations contain both chaotic and lawful people? If those organizations exist to promote a goal, wouldn't the CG and LG people in them have that same goal? But just differ on the means by which they want to achieve it?

Your Phu Man Du example gives me too little information, but yeah I'd lean slightly towards CE when Whitey smashes the artifact without asking its owners or beneficiaries for permission. The LE approach would be to describe a means of bypassing the artifact to Ming, rather than to destroy another's property.



Bullying is somehow chaotic? ... Is killing or harming people chaotic?
Bullying is "the" CE activity. You derive pleasure from seeing others cower before you. A LE person may harm, kill, or intimidate others to achieve his ends, but actual bullying is counterproductive and a smart LE person will avoid it.


Does he? Perhaps his society is a caste based system where the high have the lawful right to take what they please and only commoners can steal.
Look at real world examples of such societies. I guarantee you all tend towards chaos and anarchy.



By the way, does this mean that someone who creates a path for others to follow is chaotic?
Not necessarily. Creativity is minimally more chaotic than lawful, just like schedule books are minimally more lawful than chaotic. But it's all how you go about it. The chaotic person lives a new path, and gently guides others who start following. The lawful person devises and codifies a new path, carefully considering how others should walk it.




Digression aside, I was referring to the pop culture image of ninjas as honorable sneaky folk who assassinate people under the cover of night, obeying a code of strict obedience to their organization that includes suicide to avoid capture, no mercy towards targets, and the accomplishment of the mission at any cost.

A ninja without a lord is clearly chaotic. A ninja with a lord may well be lawful... but the aforementioned lord is chaotic if he's frequently using ninjas to accomplish his ends.



Was the Buddha being Chaotic as he forged the philosophy of Buddhism?
Too many Buddhas to answer. But to generalize... it's going to depend on the philosophy. Confucius, for example, codified a highly lawful philosophy. He didn't invent it from whole cloth; he wrote and compiled teachings that were already strong parts of the prevailing philosophy. In contrast, Lao-Tse did a lot more poetry and less codifying when he created Taoism. Not entirely coincidentally, Taoism is the chaotic counterweight to lawful Confucianism.

[Severedevil]

So, the Paladin who swears to kill every evil he meets will also become chaotic?No. He very shortly becomes a fallen paladin, and if he continues he probably becomes chaotic evil. Paladins need an actual reason to kill or they're not paladins anymore... and "he was in the 25% of the population that's evil!" has never been a justification.

[Proven_Paradox]

Guys, I don't mean to be rude, but could the alignment discussion move elsewhere? I'm more interested in getting a critique of this class mechanically. The fluff can easily be changed by a DM saying "Fluff, I change thee!" If you want to see this as a chaotic version of the blackguard, feel free. I fully and wholly disagree with you, but feel free.