Calculating party CR?

[firruna]

Hello playgrounders.

I'm running a group of 3 friends in a game, and am having a little trouble with figuring out what CR encounters they can handle.

The idea for the campaign, is that the PCs were just a couple of normal Commoners, but when Orcs attacked their village, and the Lord of the area didn't help, they rose up defending their homes themselves. Now the PCs are off looking for others in the same situation as they where to help. To show this, I had them each start at level 3, with one level of Commoner as well as one level in any NPC class from the DMG that made sense for their characters roll in the village. They could then take one level of any PC class they could explain their character learning the basics of.

They are now technically level 4. However, the level in commoner does them zero good in a fight, and for the most part their one level in NPC class does the same. I've leveled them up once, so now they have 2 levels in the PC class of their choice.

So, with this, what CR would you guys say they should be going up against? I mostly go off each enemies stats, but I like to use CR as a starting point when I can.

Any help is great,
thanks,
-Firruna

[johnbragg]

Hello playgrounders.

I'm running a group of 3 friends in a game, and am having a little trouble with figuring out what CR encounters they can handle.

The idea for the campaign, is that the PCs were just a couple of normal Commoners, but when Orcs attacked their village, and the Lord of the area didn't help, they rose up defending their homes themselves. Now the PCs are off looking for others in the same situation as they where to help. To show this, I had them each start at level 3, with one level of Commoner as well as one level in any NPC class from the DMG that made sense for their characters roll in the village. They could then take one level of any PC class they could explain their character learning the basics of.

They are now technically level 4. However, the level in commoner does them zero good in a fight, and for the most part their one level in NPC class does the same. I've leveled them up once, so now they have 2 levels in the PC class of their choice.

So, with this, what CR would you guys say they should be going up against? I mostly go off each enemies stats, but I like to use CR as a starting point when I can.

Any help is great,
thanks,
-Firruna

I'm going to advise retconning something. Drop the Commoner level, and retrain the NPC class level, so they're either level 1 or 2 in their PC class. The NPC classes aren't supposed to work in combat. And Commoner certainly isn't.

So make them level 2 PCs. Or level 3 PCs.

Or, run them against CR 2 encounters. Toughen it up a bit if the Adept or Warrior level is helping anything.

EDIT: You do have a cool idea here. If you ever run it again, I'd advise retraining the Commoners to NPC classes after their 1st encounter, and then to a PC class when they level up.
So Commoner 1 --> Warrior 1 --> Fighter 2 or Commoner 1 --> Expert 1 --> Bard 2 or Commoner 1 --> Adept 1 --> Druid 2

[Deeds]

You've really hurt skills in this game: especially since their first level was commoner. Commoner at 1st level gets (2+INT) * 4 skill points but if a character wanted to be, say a rogue, then their missing out their x4 multiplier for 1st level rogue.

I agree with firruna. Retcon at least their 1st level to be the PC class of choice and have them dump commoner.

If you don't want to change what you've done then I'd calculate their effective character levels as HD - 2. Those NPC classes aren't helping much except for bonuses to saves, maybe +1 BaB, and maybe a few spells.

[firruna]

EDIT: You do have a cool idea here. If you ever run it again, I'd advise retraining the Commoners to NPC classes after their 1st encounter, and then to a PC class when they level up.
So Commoner 1 --> Warrior 1 --> Fighter 2 or Commoner 1 --> Expert 1 --> Bard 2 or Commoner 1 --> Adept 1 --> Druid 2

I love that idea!
I'm going to try to implement this into my current game. Not sure how I'll do it, but I'm going to work it out with one of my players, then suggest it to the others.

[ksbsnowowl]

I once had a DM start everyone at Level 0, with a bonus level of commoner. I don't recall if it got x1 or x4 skill points, but I know the first real level (which we gained at 500 xp) was a normal level 1, with x4 skill points, max hit points, etc.

The level of commoner didn't count as a level (ie - it didn't count against us), and merely gave us 4 + Con mod bonus hit points, and a few extra skill points.

Retcon to that, and you should be fine. One bonus commoner level, along with three actual PC levels, and treat them in all ways as level three.

[firruna]

You've really hurt skills in this game: especially since their first level was commoner. Commoner at 1st level gets (2+INT) * 4 skill points but if a character wanted to be, say a rogue, then their missing out their x4 multiplier for 1st level rogue.

I hadn't really thought about the skill points issue. I'll try to find a way to fix this for them.


If you don't want to change what you've done then I'd calculate their effective character levels as HD - 2. Those NPC classes aren't helping much except for bonuses to saves, maybe +1 BaB, and maybe a few spells.

This is what I was looking for. I'll use this system.

Thank you.

[Beheld]

Either treat them as level 2 PCs or let them retrain the NPC levels. A HD is worth approximately squat diddly to a Cleric/Druid/Wizard, precious little to a Rogue or Barb or whatever. Just treat them like level 2 PCs with slightly more HP.

[Bucky]

You can always declare that they can build their character as if they took their first three levels in any order, even if their character's actual history says they took them in a different order. Aside from fixing the Rogue issue, it would also let them put cross class Commoner skill ranks into their Expert/Adept class skills and (although they're still weak) Aristocrats get their bonus starting gold.

----
The path you've chosen has a side effect on balance; no NPC classes have good Reflex saves, but you should expect party members to have unusually high Will or Fort saves.

[Shackel]

If I recall correctly a Commoner is considered three levels of CR below a PC of the same level. A Commoner 1 is essentially 1/3rd of the actual level. Frankly I'd consider a Commoner to always be 1/3 a PC, and the other NPC classes 1/2 a PC of the same level.

With that in mind, I'd consider them to be pushing up, but not exactly at level 3 PC-equivalent. I agree with John; CR2 encounters, maybe with some CR3s in there.