Thoughts on this Killer Build? (Pardon the Pun)

[Doctor Despair]

Race: Magic-Blooded, Unseeley Fey Human, 32 point buy allows for 18 intelligence, 18 charisma (22 after templates)

Weapon: Assassins' Blade (DC +1)

Level 1: Cleric, Favored in Guild - Jaezred Chaulssin, Swift and Silent [Regional]

Otyugh Hole for Iron Will
Devil Bloodline x3 (Dodge)
Bard Inspires Greatness while retraining of feats/skill points occurs to qualify for Assassin

Level 2: Assassin

[Death Attack DC = 23 + Charisma debuff (estimated equivalent DC 29)]

Level 3: Assassin Ability Focus: Death Attack
Level 4: Assassin

Retrain Ability Focus into Alternate Spell Source
Retrain Favored in Guild into Exotic Weapon

Level 5: Black Flame Zealot

Purchase Deathstrike Bracers to be able to Death Attack most things
Retrain Cleric level into Fighter (taking Weapon Finesse)
Retrain Exotic Weapon into Favored in Guild
Retrain Alternate Spell Source into Ability Focus
[Death Attack DC, disallowing items, allowing for charisma debuff, is 39]
All at normal ECL

Ending Progression:

At this point it becomes more useful to build the character as a Wilora, though if we were to continue building it, we would spec into the requirements for a Telflammar Shadowlord and take six levels of that to proc its death attack ability (a net +9 instead of the +6 for pursuing Assassin or Zealot).



Early access into assassin allows for some pretty silly high save-or-die DCs before things commonly become immune to death effects and mind-affecting effects (such as the Unseeley Fey debuff). I would never throw this in as an enemy of PCs, though I think it might be interesting as a PC or as an NPC that the party could hire. Does it seem valid? Are there any obvious ways to improve it that I have neglected to mention?

[Extra Anchovies]

A creature inspired with greatness gains 2 bonus Hit Dice (d10s), the commensurate number of temporary hit points (apply the target’s Constitution modifier, if any, to these bonus Hit Dice), a +2 competence bonus on attack rolls, and a +1 competence bonus on Fortitude saves. The bonus Hit Dice count as regular Hit Dice for determining the effect of spells that are Hit Dice dependant.

The last sentence there does two things:
1. Establishes the phrase "bonus hit dice" as a specific sort of game entity, and thus that the hit dice granted by Inspire Greatness do not function identically to non-bonus hit dice.
2. Establishes a situation in which bonus hit dice function as non-bonus hit dice.

Since this is an exception-based rules system, the bonus HD function as regular HD only when determining the effects of HD-dependent spells. Thus, a character under the effects of Inspire Greatness does not have a higher maximum skill ranks value. A 1st-level Rogue with three bloodline "levels" would have a skill points cap of 7, not enough to qualify for Assassin. Another level of Rogue after the bloodline "levels" would not only bring to cap to 8, but would also provide more than enough skill points to boost Hide and Move Silently to 8 ranks each without retraining any of your skills or feats.

[Doctor Despair]

Could you elaborate a bit more on why the Inspire Greatness trick doesn't work? I've read a bit about it and there seems to be a lot of positive feeling towards it as a concept, so I'd like to hear someone arguing against it. Thanks so much for replying, by the way. :) The extra assassin level doesn't significantly impact the build (well, it does by 1 DC at the marked levels, but that's insignificant), but for the sake of optimizing I still want to investigate everything.

[ATHATH]

Suggestion: Instead of relying on the dubious Inspire Greatness trick, be a Wilora. It delays your access to Assassin by two levels (assuming LA buyoff), but has a massive +10 to its INT stat, boosting your Death Attack's Save DC by 5 (or by 3, if we're counting the lost Assassin levels).

[Extra Anchovies]

Could you elaborate a bit more on why the Inspire Greatness trick doesn't work? I've read a bit about it and there seems to be a lot of positive feeling towards it as a concept, so I'd like to hear someone arguing against it. Thanks so much for replying, by the way. :) The extra assassin level doesn't significantly impact the build (well, it does by 1 DC at the marked levels, but that's insignificant), but for the sake of optimizing I still want to investigate everything.

You're welcome! Bloodlines, Inspire Greatness, retraining, and prestige class qualification is not a combination of elements I'd seen before, so it really got my rules-crunching wheels spinning.

Well, a Hit Die normally does the following:
1. Increases HP by 1dx+Con
2. Increases base attack and save bonuses by amounts determined by the type of hit die (wizard, aberration, dragon disciple, etc)
3. Increases maximum skill ranks for class skills (determined by the type of hit die) by 1
4. Increases maximum skill ranks for cross-class skills (determined by the type of hit die) by 1/2
5. Provides an amount of additional skill points determined by the type of hit die plus the creature's Intelligence modifier
6. Increases the creature's total number of hit dice for the purposes of HD-dependent effects (e.g. Cause Fear)

Bonus hit dice are a game-mechanics component separate and distinct from normal hit dice. Since they're not normal hit dice, they don't function like normal hit dice - instead, they function however the rules describe them to function. Bonus hit dice do the following:
1.

Yup. Bonus hit dice, by default, do nothing at all. Most of the things provided by normal hit dice can't be provided by the bonus hit dice, because they have no stated BAB/save/skill progressions.

However, Inspire Greatness does the following:
1. Provides 2 bonus hit dice, which are apparently d10s.
2. Provides temporary HP equal to 2d10 plus twice the target's constitution modifier (if any). These temporary HP aren't provided by the bonus HD themselves. Inspire Greatness applies "the commensurate number of temporary hit points"; that is, it applies an amount of temporary hit points equal to the amount of hit points that the bonus hit dice would provide if the bonus hit dice provided HP. Which they don't, apparently.
3. Provides a +2 competence bonus on attack rolls.
4. Provides a +1 competence bonus on Fortitude saves.
5. Allows the bonus hit dice provided by (1) to count as regular hit dice for determining the effect of spells that are Hit Dice dependent. The bonus hit dice don't do this on their own. Bonus hit dice that are somehow provided by a source other than Inspire Greatness do not also have that effect unless the other source says that they do.

So bonus hit dice do nothing on their own, and Inspire Greatness does not directly increase the skill ranks cap, and Inspire Greatness does not make the bonus hit dice increase the skill ranks cap, therefore a creature under the effects of Inspire Greatness does not have a higher skill ranks cap than it did when it was not under the effects of Inspire Greatness.

[Doctor Despair]

Can you play as a Wilora? I found it in Dragon Magazine 307 and it seems like it's not meant for PCs. :smalleek:

[ATHATH]

Yep- the sidebar at the beginning of the article gives it an LA of +2, and states that the LA can be used for both PC's and cohorts.

[Doctor Despair]

Wait, is it LA +2? I thought it just got two hitdie? The hitdie might actually be more beneficial.

Race: Unseeley Fey Wilora, 32 point buy allows for 18 intelligence, 18 charisma (20 after Fey template)

Stats after templates/racial bonuses:

Str: 6
Dex: 20
Con: 6
Int: 28
Wis: 18
Cha: 30

Racial Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Alertness, Improved Initiative

Level 1 (ECL 3 after 2 Wilora hit die): Fighter, Blind Fight, Favored in Guild: Jaezred Chaulssin

Bloodline x3

Level 2: Assassin

[Death Attack DC = 27 + Charisma debuff (estimated equivalent DC 37)]

Level 3: Assassin Ability Focus: Death Attack
Level 4: Assassin
Level 5: Assassin

Purchase Deathstrike Bracers to be able to Death Attack most things

Level 6: Assassin Spring Attack

Level 7: Telflammar ShadowLord

Retrain Fighter level into Cleric, Blind Fight into Exotic Weapon, Ability Focus into Alternate Spell Source


Level 8: Black Flame Zealot

Retrain Exotic Weapon into Martial Study (Shadowhand: Stalker in the Night), Alternate Spell Source into Ability Focus

[Death Attack DC... is 52]

All three classes obtained by ECL 10 (burning off the Shadowwalker LA before reaching level 9)


Compared to a human assassin that, without bardic tricks, would hit assassin at level 3, ECL 3 (DC = 29), Black Flame at level 6, and ShadowLord at that same level 7 (DC = 39)

At level 3, a character cross-classing into barbarian variants would have +6 to their fort save and probably +6 from con (assuming a racial +4). They would need to roll a 16 to pass the human save. A straight-barbarian would need a 19.

At level 4, when the Wilori enters Assassin, that same barbarian could have +8 and maybe +7 from con. It would need a nat 20 to pass the roll. Likewise, the normal barbarian would be out of luck. Sadly, the normal barbarian will continue to fall off at this point since the DC scales twice as fast as his fort save. This strange fort-pumping barbarian we shall say gets +2 every level.

At level 6, the barb has +19 all together. The human assassin has a DC of 35, so the barb needs higher than a 15 to pass. The Wilora (level 4, ECL 6) requires him to roll 41, which still requires a nat 20.

After that, the Wilori only scales better. The human doesn't offer earlier entry, and I think requires a lot more retraining. By late-game, when the monstrous hit die would become relevant, most things are immune to death effects anyway, which is why I am focusing on the early game. It seems like the Wilori offers a straight upgrade entirely worth the two hitdie.

Edit: Could you take the HD to offset the level adjustment?

[ATHATH]

The Wilora has 2 LA AND 2 HD. LA buyoff can negate the LA, though.

[Doctor Despair]

The Wilora has 2 LA AND 2 HD. LA buyoff can negate the LA, though.

Ah. In that case, the choice depends on which type of campaign you are in. Human may actually be preferable since the Wilora won't be an assassin until ECL 6, though at that point its DC is still higher than the human assassin. It also scales better than the human assassin at that point, but again, it depends on at what point creatures will commonly begin to receive the "immunity to death effects" quality. If we call the assassin "done" at level 10, then the Wilora might not be a worthwhile payoff since it removes half the effective playtime from the Death Attack feature -- unless the DM is kind and allows you to obtain some special weapon or feat or something to bypass death effects at -10 DC or something similar to Music of the Gods.

I am also curious -- how does LA buyoff work with an acquired template? The human would get LA+1 while it was level 6. Would it be able to pay that off at level 6? Level 9? What about the Wilora? It would pay off its LA at level 6, becoming LA +1, and then become LA2 again -- would it pay off its next LA at level 12, and then the last one at level 15?

EDIT:

Although, once you hit level 6, wizards start getting access to mind-sight, so the human build definitely has the advantage in that it can be used levels 2/3-5. :)

Edit 2:

So, if the bardic trick is allowed in an early-game campaign, you optimally go human with templates and your power peaks at level 5. If the bardic trick is ruled not to work, then it peaks at level 6 instead. If the campaign runs a little longer, you'd probably dip back into assassin, but if it is going to run to late-game, you'd want to get into and complete Shadowlord as soon as possible.

If you know the campaign is going to run or is starting at level 6 or higher, you are probably better off taking the Wilora build. You become an assassin at level 6 and follow the same general build, but with higher DCs that scale better for later-game but ultimately can't be used levels 1-5. Much better for flavor though! :) Cons: in this feat-hungry build, you may really miss the human feat.

This build has an effective +3 on someone who only invests in spot ranks but not feat dips for things like Skill Focus. However, it would suffer in groups since hiding as part of an attack action or the like incurs a -20 penalty. By the time greater invisibility becomes readily available, so does truesight and permanencied see invisibility to shut down this assassin. Stealth becomes increasingly difficult as levels raise higher, so it is unlikely that this character should kill more than one or two enemies in any given continuous melee. Disguise may be of more use than stealth as time goes on, so long as the target is not guarded by anyone with the mind sight ability or foresight, at which point the build needs to start sacrificing levels and DC in order to add in things like Xorvintal and Lightbringer Rogue (Xorvintal), God-Blooded of Vecna (True Seeing), Slayer 6 (Mind Sight), and so on, but that's a rabbit hole I don't want to go down. Suffice to say that this is a very, very scary early-game single-target character that, with a lot of work and even more templates, could eventually become an adequate late-game character, but at that point you may as well be pumping the saves for some sort of wizard character rather than messing about with Death Attack.