Has anyone played a monk of the 4 elements or does anyone have a homebrewed fix

[Sir cryosin]

I like the concept of the elemental monk but I started to play one the next session I switched to shadow but it was my very first game and character and it left a nasty taste in my mouth. I would like to play one but it's just to taxing on your ki.

[Regulas]

Well you're still devastating just using ki for flurry of blows haha.

I believe one solution was to give you extra Ki = to your wisdom, it doesn't seem like much but it guarantees at least one or two casts per short rest in addition to the norm. This works out better for balance then reducing Ki costs because there are some abilities that are difficult to reduce properly (like fire snake) without using fractions.

Also make sure you're getting a short rest per 2 encounters cause that's what things are balanced around.

[Foxhound438]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1pdYIcfHauwNDM2My1XeWFYSDA/view

[Segev]

While I've skimmed the Monk subclasses, I haven't delved into them. Could somebody please elaborate on what the problem - perceived or real - with the 4-elements monk is?

[Regulas]

While I've skimmed the Monk subclasses, I haven't delved into them. Could somebody please elaborate on what the problem - perceived or real - with the 4-elements monk is?

The Ki point cost for spells and abilities is extremely high, such that you're usually better just saving Ki points for flurry of blows then using them up on spells. Consider that you initially have only 3 Ki points and most things cost at least 2 points. Furthermore at lower levels you mostly only get damage which you dont actually need as a dmg class.

The high level spells like fly and stoneskin are okish and you have enough Ki points at that point to spend the 6, but thats level 11 and still a bit hefty.

In contrast the other subclasses get free abilities/low cost abilities, and even the spells offered to Shadow are better utility.

[INDYSTAR188]

The Ki point cost for spells and abilities is extremely high, such that you're usually better just saving Ki points for flurry of blows then using them up on spells. Consider that you initially have only 3 Ki points and most things cost at least 2 points. Furthermore at lower levels you mostly only get damage which you dont actually need as a dmg class.

The high level spells like fly and stoneskin are okish and you have enough Ki points at that point to spend the 6, but thats level 11 and still a bit hefty.

In contrast the other subclasses get free abilities/low cost abilities, and even the spells offered to Shadow are better utility.

Can I add that as written you don't get enough options either. One of my players wanted to be an air bender-type and as-written he would not have been able to quite get the feeling we were looking for. The redux version linked above is a BIG improvement. More options to select, they cost an appropriate amount of ki now and theres even a elemental based cantrip.

[Jeebs]

My current stance is that they're probably really fun around level 11 when they can cast Fly and Stoneskin (without the costly material component).

If you get a chance to start there or replace a recently killed character around that level, you'd have awesome mobility, damage reduction, and flavor.

[BladeWing81]

they already made a fix to the subclass a few months ago, it called the Sun Soul Monk. truthfully, you need more Ki for the abilities. and even then, the fact that you need ki to do the spells limits your other monk abilities. add ki with your Wis modifier, remove the ki cost of the fang of the fire snake, and maybe get a couple of element base cantrips and have fun.

[Twelvetrees]

Have some links to homebrew:

The Way of Four Elements by AmbientRaven (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?428231-The-Way-of-Four-Elements-PEACH)

Way of Four Elements Monk Remastered by Dralnu (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?457593-Way-of-Four-Elements-Monk-Remastered) (Same thing Foxhound linked above)

Way of the 4 Elements Monk as a 1/3 caster by WrittenInBlood (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?458417-Way-of-the-4-Elements-Monk-as-a-1-3-caster)

Monk subclass fix: way of the four elements by Balgoroth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?459352-Monk-subclass-fix-way-of-the-four-elements)

[Foxhound438]

to be honest besides lacking choice the base version isn't terrible. you get ki back on short rests, so higher on you're comparable to a warlock in ability to cast. problem is the choice mostly, and if not that, then the fact that it eats your one resource that's used for all of your monk abilities. Better than actually going 4 elem might be multiclassing into land druid for actual spells, but the spells you get there aren't great for a "bending" themed character unless you only care about call lightning and flame sphere.

[Regulas]

Also the elemental Evil companion has a ton of cantrips and spells that would be perfect for a 4 element monk homebrew.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Also the elemental Evil companion has a ton of cantrips and spells that would be perfect for a 4 element monk homebrew.
True. Giving the four elemental cantrips (Gust, Mold Earth, Shape Water and Control Flames) for free at level 3 would be a good start; throw in a bit of extra ki and/or reduce costs and you should look a lot better.

[PracticalM]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1pdYIcfHauwNDM2My1XeWFYSDA/view

I used this in the campaign I run, and both the player and I liked it.

[INDYSTAR188]

I used this in the campaign I run, and both the player and I liked it.

We just started Out of the Abyss and so far I'm really happy with this re-worked approach. Imo really makes the subclass fun and perfectly viable.

[DiceDiceBaby]

As mentioned by the others, EE is the way to go! Here's an anecdotal experience that may help you conceptualize something:

When I introduced my wife to DnD, she wanted to play a 4-elements monk, but it felt too complicated. She may still yet play one someday.

In the meantime, she rolled a Sorcerer with the four Elemental Evil cantrips (Mold Earth, Control Flames, Shape Water, Gust) and just uses them in combat situations to creative non-damaging effects that make her look like something out of the Avatar series.

For example, she was once confronting a Human necromancer in a cave with one torch for light. She has darkvision; the Human doesn't. Cue snuffing of torch with Control Flames. Hilarity ensues.

Then again, this is super DM dependent, and if you prefer simply being an elemental beatstick, this may not suit you.

But the Elemental Evil Player's Companion may provide you with enough spell ideas to keep it going, if that's what you want: http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/EE_PlayersCompanion.pdf

[Lines]

While I've skimmed the Monk subclasses, I haven't delved into them. Could somebody please elaborate on what the problem - perceived or real - with the 4-elements monk is?


Ki costs are unreasonably high.
Spell selection is too limited, 5 over your entire career
Unlike other subclasses, can't use spells alongside your monk abilities, have to choose to punch OR fireball


All 3 don't need to be fixed, but it really does need to feel less clunky.

[Shaofoo]

I believe that the ki costs (spell level +1 ) is fine for a class that regains ki on a short rest. For a class with a lot of abilities for the base class I think the ability to cast spells (especially at half caster level) should not be used frequently.

I do agree that there needs to be more spells to be chosen, especially spells in the Elemental Evil, which I consider to be a horrible missed opportunity. I would give a new spell every odd level after the 3rd and that the spell level be similar in progression to Paladin or Ranger spell progression in spell levels.

As for the spell selection it is much harder to think what is an elemental spell (hold person is apparently an elemental spell) but I would rather let the monk choose a spell and give it an elemental spin if he is able, the only thing is that buffing spells can only be targeted by self and can't be multi targeted if it could do so. Also Concentration spells cannot be dispelled through damage but you still can only have one concentration spell at a time.

[Vogonjeltz]

I like the concept of the elemental monk but I started to play one the next session I switched to shadow but it was my very first game and character and it left a nasty taste in my mouth. I would like to play one but it's just to taxing on your ki.


While I've skimmed the Monk subclasses, I haven't delved into them. Could somebody please elaborate on what the problem - perceived or real - with the 4-elements monk is?


The Ki point cost for spells and abilities is extremely high, such that you're usually better just saving Ki points for flurry of blows then using them up on spells. Consider that you initially have only 3 Ki points and most things cost at least 2 points. Furthermore at lower levels you mostly only get damage which you dont actually need as a dmg class.

The high level spells like fly and stoneskin are okish and you have enough Ki points at that point to spend the 6, but thats level 11 and still a bit hefty.

In contrast the other subclasses get free abilities/low cost abilities, and even the spells offered to Shadow are better utility.

I think Regulas outlined the complaint well, however I would disagree with the validity of the complaint on the following grounds, with the caveat that expectation setting is crucial in discussing whether a subclass did or didn't achieve the goal.

First, expectations: The strength of the Way of the Four Elements is not single-target attacks or control, it is that it provides the only source of area of effect damage for monks (pre-Sunsoul; although it still outperforms sunsoul in terms of damage per ki).

Second, the spells don't cost a significant amount of ki for the value.

Price point comparison:
Flurry of Blows - 1 ki, provides 1 additional unarmed strike attack on a bonus action as compared to the baseline bonus action of martial arts.

1 Attack at level 3 (when the tradition first unlocks) is worth 1d4+ability score damage. So, anywhere from 2.5 to 6.5 average damage (from a hit) based on maximum starting ability score using the stat array.

So the minimum value of 1 ki at lvl 3 is 2.5 damage (this doesn't incorporate the chance to hit of course, so the actual value is potentially much much lower (i.e. 50% chance to hit would drop the 2.5 to be 1.5 value after factoring crit chance).

Let's say for sake of argument the character has +3 ability score and thus a +5 hit chance against an AC 16 target for a 50% actual hit rate (5% crit). Each point of ki would add an attack for 1d4+3 damage, (5.5) which equates to 3.15 damage on average against an AC 16 target.
Bearing in mind that one can only use ki to get this benefit once per round, so the damage is spread out, 2 ki used this way would be worth an effective 6.3 damage.

2 ki Way of the Four Elements will get you:

Thunderwave: 2d8, save for half, to up to 8 targets = 9 ave (4.5 save) if there's a 50% chance to save or not save, it average 6.75 damage on a single target, exceeding the damage per ki value of flurry of blows by 0.225 points; Hitting maximum targets with 50% chance to save would net 54 damage on average, with +23.85 damage over the ki value of flurry of blows.

Fist of Unbroken Air: 3d10 save for half (16.5; 8.25) assuming a 50% save rate is 12.375 average, exceeding the value of flurry's ki use by 3.3075 damage per ki.

Sweeping Cinder Strike: 3d6 cone, save for half, (10.5; 5.25) assuming 50% save rate is 7.875 average per target, exceeding flurry's ki rate by at least 0.7875 damage per ki and at most (max 6 targets) is 20.475 per ki spent.

For point of reference, a 50% save rate would imply that the DC after modifers was 11; if the Monk had a +4 ability score their save DC would be 14, making this directly superior to a target with less than a +4 to the appropriate saving throw.

I'd also contest the claim that a Monk is normally a damage dealing class. They have abilities geared more towards survival and mobility, not towards damage dealing.

[MeeposFire]

I personally feel that the class needs actual class abilities along with the spells.

For me I was thinking along the lines that you get all of the spells and with DMs permission you might be able to learn or create new abilities to go with the spells (you still get access to the spells at the levels given in the book and you can use those as examples for when to allow certain level spells and what their cost will be). Personally I think too many of the spells are niche or situational for a subclass that gets so few choices in spells. Some of the more thematic spells are the biggest offenders. I would like to be able to let people have the option of using these niche spells while also having some generally good options and I do think the limitations on ki would keep things from getting out of hand.

I would also open up more options for elemental cantrips.

Lastly I would want some actual class features to go along with this. It seems that spell casting sub classes and many others get a more minor benefit along with the spell casting. IN this case I am leaning towards ritual casting where they pick a class (or perhaps it is already chosen) and get to pick up and use rituals from that class. Useful and fits one of the aspects that I think most monks lack (a reason to keep and use various types of scroll like objects).

Another feature would be getting to use your martial arts attack or flurry of blows as a bonus action after casting a spell would be helpful.

I am still trying to come up with two more class features to round out the sub class but I think it has some solid potential.

[djreynolds]

You know what we do. Just add elemental damage to the actual martial arts instead. Kind of like smiting, or a nature druids ability to add elemental damage. It just cost ki points.

[SharkForce]

I think Regulas outlined the complaint well, however I would disagree with the validity of the complaint on the following grounds, with the caveat that expectation setting is crucial in discussing whether a subclass did or didn't achieve the goal.

First, expectations: The strength of the Way of the Four Elements is not single-target attacks or control, it is that it provides the only source of area of effect damage for monks (pre-Sunsoul; although it still outperforms sunsoul in terms of damage per ki).

Second, the spells don't cost a significant amount of ki for the value.

Price point comparison:
Flurry of Blows - 1 ki, provides 1 additional unarmed strike attack on a bonus action as compared to the baseline bonus action of martial arts.

1 Attack at level 3 (when the tradition first unlocks) is worth 1d4+ability score damage. So, anywhere from 2.5 to 6.5 average damage (from a hit) based on maximum starting ability score using the stat array.

So the minimum value of 1 ki at lvl 3 is 2.5 damage (this doesn't incorporate the chance to hit of course, so the actual value is potentially much much lower (i.e. 50% chance to hit would drop the 2.5 to be 1.5 value after factoring crit chance).

Let's say for sake of argument the character has +3 ability score and thus a +5 hit chance against an AC 16 target for a 50% actual hit rate (5% crit). Each point of ki would add an attack for 1d4+3 damage, (5.5) which equates to 3.15 damage on average against an AC 16 target.
Bearing in mind that one can only use ki to get this benefit once per round, so the damage is spread out, 2 ki used this way would be worth an effective 6.3 damage.

2 ki Way of the Four Elements will get you:

Thunderwave: 2d8, save for half, to up to 8 targets = 9 ave (4.5 save) if there's a 50% chance to save or not save, it average 6.75 damage on a single target, exceeding the damage per ki value of flurry of blows by 0.225 points; Hitting maximum targets with 50% chance to save would net 54 damage on average, with +23.85 damage over the ki value of flurry of blows.

Fist of Unbroken Air: 3d10 save for half (16.5; 8.25) assuming a 50% save rate is 12.375 average, exceeding the value of flurry's ki use by 3.3075 damage per ki.

Sweeping Cinder Strike: 3d6 cone, save for half, (10.5; 5.25) assuming 50% save rate is 7.875 average per target, exceeding flurry's ki rate by at least 0.7875 damage per ki and at most (max 6 targets) is 20.475 per ki spent.

For point of reference, a 50% save rate would imply that the DC after modifers was 11; if the Monk had a +4 ability score their save DC would be 14, making this directly superior to a target with less than a +4 to the appropriate saving throw.

I'd also contest the claim that a Monk is normally a damage dealing class. They have abilities geared more towards survival and mobility, not towards damage dealing.

that's all very interesting, except it fails entirely to account for the fact that you have to spend your action casting those spells instead of making an attack. sure, the monk won't do amazing amounts of damage by just attacking, but it is a non-zero amount (and will probably use a base of d8 for regular attacks)

also, that comparison only works for so long. at level 4, you probably increase dex (and therefore damage, both directly and through increasing your hit chance). at level 5, you increase your martial arts die (and also get an additional attack). at level 8, another ASI. at level 11, you deal a d8.

those AoE attacks are probably only justified at all if you're actually hitting more than one target. you might even *need* 3 targets to break even with just spending your action to attack and using a flurry.

[Zalabim]

those AoE attacks are probably only justified at all if you're actually hitting more than one target. you might even *need* 3 targets to break even with just spending your action to attack and using a flurry.

3 is pretty accurate. Maybe 4, or possibly 5, depending on how you value split damage versus focused damage. Shatter has much longer range, Thunderwave has knockback, but Burning Hands is just damage, and at level 6 it's the most damage of the three.

So, 3 Ki for 4d6(14) average damage. Assuming +3 Dex save and 15 AC, you'll land Burning Hands for full damage 50% of the time, or hit 65% of the time. This results in burning hands dealing .75*14=[10.5] average damage per target. Attacking deals 8.5*.65+4.5*.05=[5.75] for each main attack and 7.5*.65+3.5*.05=[5.05] for each unarmed strike. It takes an action, you have extra attack, and takes 3 Ki, so the opportunity cost would be 26.65-31.7 depending on if you count the bonus action attack you'd normally get, which you aren't getting but also aren't using the bonus action yet. So for a general case, you need to hit 2.5-3 enemies to match damage. Taking a subpath feature to roughly equal what you can do without it sucks, so it should be hitting 4 or 5 enemies to be worth using, and Burning Hands only covers ~6 squares.

[Segev]

Taking a subpath feature to roughly equal what you can do without it sucks, so it should be hitting 4 or 5 enemies to be worth using, and Burning Hands only covers ~6 squares.

Perhaps a little creative positioning could help? Cones share a sphere's 2D cross-section when cut in the appropriate way. Can a monk jump in the air and burning hands straight down to get a cone that's covering a larger circle?


I don't think this was anywhere in the designers' thinking, mind, when they wrote it; this is more a thought experiment on how it might be salvaged.

[RickAllison]

Perhaps a little creative positioning could help? Cones share a sphere's 2D cross-section when cut in the appropriate way. Can a monk jump in the air and burning hands straight down to get a cone that's covering a larger circle?


I don't think this was anywhere in the designers' thinking, mind, when they wrote it; this is more a thought experiment on how it might be salvaged.

Isn't that the entire reason why dragons get their fly speed with cones? They fly up and can hit a far larger area!

[ruy343]

I've made several posts about playing a moderate-level 4-elements monk. Here's how I felt about it:

At low levels, monks are awesome damage dealers: the fact that they can make 2 attacks right off the bat is pretty strong, moving on to 3-4 attacks with higher levels and ki point spending.

However, as you reach higher levels, monks start dropping off on the damage curve, no matter which kind of monk you choose (Open hand monks get some more useful combat stuff too, but it's all based on saves against enemies - more on that later). What do you get in return? Utility. The shadow monks get some handy spells, and more mobility. Open hand monks get elemental abilities that they can use in a pinch.

Why does this matter? When the green dragon breathes its toxic fumes or the enemy lich casts cloudkill, you just say, "I don't care; I'm immune to poison", and go punch things in the face. You become proficient in all saving throws (+4-6 bonuses really matter!), with the ability to reroll fails for a ki point. You gain the ability to walk on water and up vertical surfaces without penalty. Your movement speed begins to exceed that of a horse.

But you still hit like a girl (to use the colloquial, not to be derogatory to women). Even the open hand monks, who get to add rider effects onto their two flurry of blows attacks still don't end up hitting all that hard at higher levels: at most, you inflict 3-4d8 + dex (but at least your attacks are magical!).

And then there's things like stunning strike and quivering palm, all of which are based on saving throws. Now, you might say to yourself, yes: these are what makes the monk awesome. But I contest that this viewpoint is flawed, because virtually everything at that level has incredibly high constitution saves, and many also have legendary resistance, making it truly impossible for such a blow to land. Despite the number of times I tried to stun an enemy over the 25 or so sessions that formed the campaign, I think that only 3-4 stunning strikes ever stuck.

But the thing that most matters is this: you're unaffected by so much that the DM might try to throw at you. Add on top of that the utility that you can gain from the 4-elements monk to adopt gaseous form, cast fly, apply stoneskin or gain a powerful ranged attack, and you've got a recipe for fun.

4-elements monks aren't that bad compared to the other monk subclasses really, but make sure that you don't only take damaging elemental effects - be sure to pick up utility as well!

[Vogonjeltz]

that's all very interesting, except it fails entirely to account for the fact that you have to spend your action casting those spells instead of making an attack. sure, the monk won't do amazing amounts of damage by just attacking, but it is a non-zero amount (and will probably use a base of d8 for regular attacks)

also, that comparison only works for so long. at level 4, you probably increase dex (and therefore damage, both directly and through increasing your hit chance). at level 5, you increase your martial arts die (and also get an additional attack). at level 8, another ASI. at level 11, you deal a d8.

those AoE attacks are probably only justified at all if you're actually hitting more than one target. you might even *need* 3 targets to break even with just spending your action to attack and using a flurry.

The comparison was ki cost value, not action value. The claim was that the ki cost of the spells was too high for the effect granted. That claim is demonstrably untrue.

As to whether it's a better use of your action to cast say, Burning Hands, or Make melee attacks (which presumably also cost your bonus action)? I also think that's probably a question of how many targets are available, but I figure we should also check our assumptions.

Going back to the value calculated, if each attack is worth 3.15 damage it's a total of 9.45 per turn (from all attacks, not just ki-added value) using flurry of blows, with 3 ki at level 3 that's a total of 28.35 damage output on average.

The spell can only use 2 ki, so we can just assume that the last ki is also flurry, effectively negating the use of one round, dropping the total value back to 18.9

Sweeping Cinder strike is 7.875 average, it must hit (on average) 2.4 targets to exceed the average damage of the flurry attack. However, it's still more ki efficient even against a single target even though the total damage output for the round probably would be slightly lower.

The single target Fist of Unbroken Air is 12.375, so it's better single target use of ki even factoring in the normal attack. It also lets the Monk burst their damage with ki much more efficiently than using ki for flurry.

A d8 might be used if the monk is wielding a quarterstaff in two hands, but at 3rd level that accounts for, at most, a single attack (flurry is unarmed strikes). That would increase the damage from 3.15 to 4.35, a marginal increase of 2.4 damage across 2 rounds. As it does not apply to flurry, the efficiency equation is unchanged. It remains more efficient to use ki for spells under all circumstances and absolute damage eclipses with spells so long as there are 3 targets on average.


Taking a subpath feature to roughly equal what you can do without it sucks, so it should be hitting 4 or 5 enemies to be worth using, and Burning Hands only covers ~6 squares.

Bear in mind that neither Shadow nor Hand actually do aoe, nor do their early ki abilities (which is what we're comparing here) add damage.

The four elements monk retains the base ability to use flurry if doing so would be preferable in a situation, however only the four elements monk can use one of the spells if doing so would be better. This is context driven of course, based on target AC, saving throws, resistances, and vulnerabilities.

In general, however, the ki use is more efficient for the spells than for flurry, and the damage per round would be higher for the aoe when there are 3+ targets.

[Regulas]

The comparison was ki cost value, not action value.

Except that you have to factor action economy into it (along with average ability scores of at least +2 for most monks, i'm not sure why you wouldn't do the math with a +2 or plus 3 modifier assumed), the dmg per ki is entirely irrelevant if your total damage per encounter is lower. By only spending ki on flurry of blows despite the technicality of dealing "less dmg per ki" you will still deal more damage per encounter.

Elemental can nova by spending extra ki, but this pretty much burns everything you have for a single attack, otherwise your damage per encounter will remain low, barring high number of enemies.

I generally stand by the notion that until level 11 Elemental is basically gipped as you don't get much other then situational range or aoe so unless your campaign needs that a lot then :p . Then it finally gets something nifty if somewhat late and potentially restricted.

[SharkForce]

have to say, i'm finding it funny that 4d8 + 20 (across four attacks) is characterized as being *terrible* damage. i mean, it isn't amazing by any means, and you're certainly not competing with a high level barbarian, or probably even a THF champion fighter with feats, but describing it as if you're doing incredibly low damage just seems a bit silly.

also, while many enemies will have good or at least decent con saves at high levels, when you're making up to 4 saves in a single round, there's a fairly good chance you'll fail at least one of them. if we presume a level 12+ monk with 18 wis (starting at 16, a single ASI so far on wis) you've got DC 16 saves.

now, DC 16 is not by any means unbeatable. but you don't get magic resist, and you'd be surprised what isn't immune to stun sometimes. death knights? +5 to save, no stun immunity. you probably won't stun the most powerful demons and devils, (but you generally could, *especially* if you are forcing 4 saves at a time), but the minions they probably have are fairly likely to be stunned, often as good as a 50/50 chance or so (again, this becomes even more probable if they have to face up to 4 saves in a single turn).

at levels where you'd expect to be facing a CR 17 or 18 enemy, you'll probably have a full DC 19 for them to resist, and even the highest con save monsters have a chance to fail (not a huge chance, unless of course you're talking about your chance over the course of a bunch of attacks). and again, many monsters with a CR in the low teens will save less than half the time. against a stun that can be applied up to 4 times a round. 5 if you manage a reaction (depending on monk subclass, that might be very easy to pull off).

[djreynolds]

Just give the monk the divine strike feature of the nature cleric... and he can choose do what he wants.

[Mara]

Grab shape the flowing river, gust of wind, fireball and stone wall.

Then ask the DM to let you be creative with these spells and elemental attunement. I started a thread here about it but I'm too lazy to link right not now.

[Capac Amaru]

I have a player in a campaign playing a svirfneblin. I gave him the option to play an element monk with a custom earth focused spell list.



Spine of the World 17th
Bones of the Earth
6 Ki points


Grasp of the Earth Giant 6th
Maximilians Earthen Grasp
3 Ki points


Earth Attunement
Mold Earth
0 Ki points


Eternal Mountain Defense 11th
Stone Skin
5 Ki points


Fangs of the World Serpent
Magic Stone
1 Ki point


Fist of the Broken Stone
Earth Tremor
2 Ki points


Fury of the Titan 11th
Erupting Earth
4 Ki points


Sandstorm 6th
Dust Devil
3 Ki points


Way of Stone 11th
Meld into Stone
4 Ki points


Path of Stone 11th
Spider Climb
3 Ki points


Body of the Stone Monkey 17th
Investiture of Stone
6 Ki points


Call of the Land
Earthbind
2 Ki points


Shape the Ancient Rock
Stoneshape
1 Ki point


Unyielding Stance
Absorb Elements
2 Ki points


Wave of Rolling Earth 17th
Wall of Stone
6 Ki points



Instead of choosing disciplines, the whole list is available at any time. I also removed the level restrictions, so he can use any ability as long as he has the requisite Ki points.

I tried to make sure the list gives plenty of utility.

Magic Stone gives a handy ranged attack, spider climb and meld into stone provide useful movement options, max's earthen grasp and earthbind give you some useful ways to shut down enemy movement, stone skin, absorb elements and investiture of stone give you some combat utility etc.

[Zalabim]

I would want to look into magic stone and stoneshape to see if Magic Stone should be cheaper and Stoneshape should cost more, but overall it looks like a solid list. Both Thunderwave and Shatter also have some earth-y themes, though I'm not sure they're needed with Earth Tremor and Erupting Earth on the new list.

[Vogonjeltz]

Except that you have to factor action economy into it (along with average ability scores of at least +2 for most monks, i'm not sure why you wouldn't do the math with a +2 or plus 3 modifier assumed), the dmg per ki is entirely irrelevant if your total damage per encounter is lower. By only spending ki on flurry of blows despite the technicality of dealing "less dmg per ki" you will still deal more damage per encounter.

Elemental can nova by spending extra ki, but this pretty much burns everything you have for a single attack, otherwise your damage per encounter will remain low, barring high number of enemies.

I generally stand by the notion that until level 11 Elemental is basically gipped as you don't get much other then situational range or aoe so unless your campaign needs that a lot then :p . Then it finally gets something nifty if somewhat late and potentially restricted.

I'm not entirely sure I understand your complaint. I was already using a higher modifier. If you reduce the modifier the ki for flurry use is even worse, making Four Elements that much better.

And I'm sorry if the bottom line got lost in the shuffle: The damage dealt by Four Winds AoE overall is greater than Attack action + Flurry of Blows Bonus Action if there are 3+ targets hit, even though the ki economy is better at just 1 target.

So if you have only one target, and the most important thing is to maximize the damage dealt in that round, then Flurry of Blows is a good choice. If you have multiple targets or using your ki most to most efficiently do damage is more important, than the AoE is a good choice.

It doesn't require a high number of enemies to do more absolute damage, just 3 or more. It doesn't matter how many enemies there are, the ki used in the aoe is always more efficient.

[mer.c]

IDK where the consensus lies on the usefulness of Four Elements disciplines, but for those that want Avatar monks to get better returns on their Ki investment more often, how would this sound?

"Starting at 6th level, when you use your action to cast a spell using an Elemental Discipline, you can make one unarmed attack as a bonus action."*

I guess maybe you'd want to have something in there about only Disciplines that deal damage, but I don't know. I just imagine it as you're skilled enough in quickly firing off your moves that you can toss an extra jab in there somewhere. For those who want a fix to the consistency of damage per Ki, it seems like that would be a really intuitive, simple, and innocuous angle to approach it from.

*Or attack with a monk weapon. Maybe also throw in something about +max Ki equal to Wis modifier to help with the uses per day, especially at low levels.

[Arc-Royal]

My current stance is that they're probably really fun around level 11 when they can cast Fly and Stoneskin (without the costly material component).

If you get a chance to start there or replace a recently killed character around that level, you'd have awesome mobility, damage reduction, and flavor.

Point of information (I didn't see it mentioned anywhere--if it has, I'll make sure to correct/delete this later): per errata, Stoneskin can't be taken until 17.

[MeeposFire]

Point of information (I didn't see it mentioned anywhere--if it has, I'll make sure to correct/delete this later): per errata, Stoneskin can't be taken until 17.

Which oddly makes it mostly useless. The reason is at level 18 you get better resistance (only force penetrates) that does not require concentration and does not get pierced by magic weapons Also it makes you invisible. That seems like a bad change to me. At least before you could get a bunch of levels to have an advantage.

[SharkForce]

Which oddly makes it mostly useless. The reason is at level 18 you get better resistance (only force penetrates) that does not require concentration and does not get pierced by magic weapons Also it makes you invisible. That seems like a bad change to me. At least before you could get a bunch of levels to have an advantage.

also, i believe it costs less ki to use. yeah, stoneskin at 17 for a monk is just... meh.

[Vogonjeltz]

Which oddly makes it mostly useless. The reason is at level 18 you get better resistance (only force penetrates) that does not require concentration and does not get pierced by magic weapons Also it makes you invisible. That seems like a bad change to me. At least before you could get a bunch of levels to have an advantage.

Well, it does last an hour (empty body is only 1 minute). So its a large duration gain.

[pwykersotz]

So, while not the OP, I'm not completely sure about that homebrew link. I think I need some convincing on a few things.

Fist of Unbroken Air. Crazy powerful. As written, it's basically a perma-kite. I get that the Warlock's Repelling Blast has superior range with the knockback, but I'm not sure about a no-save Prone condition in addition to it. It's free advantage to all melee attackers in the party at all times, and with ki replenishing on a short rest, after a few levels it will always be online. Although, as I type this I realize that the Monk imposes disadvantage on their own followup attacks on the same enemy given it transforms all their attacks for the round, and if they are ranged they have disadvantage vs prone targets and if they close to melee they have disadvantage for making a ranged attack within 5ft. Hmm...

Enduring Mountain Stance. Ignoring the fluff disconnect of standing like a mountain while dodging everywhere, this move turns you into a mega-tank for no ki cost whatsoever. Immunity to a host of conditions and the fact that you can't be moved while imposing disadvantage on enemy attacks is really brutal for a move you get right out of the gates.

Eyes of Fire. Absolutely not, 6th level is way too early to have True Seeing for a microscopic cost which makes it pretty much on command. I would argue that even moving it to an 11th level ability still has it a cut above a Wizard with the full spell.

Golden Snake's Icy Path. Is it just me, or is this weak compared to the other abilities? It doesn't turn an area into difficult terrain, just the exact path you run. An enemy stepping to the side can pursue you just fine, unless you're in cramped 5' corridors.

The rest of it seems pretty sweet and I like the ribbon abilities and the reduced ki uses. I'm just not sure about these ones.

[Final Hyena]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1pdYIcfHauwNDM2My1XeWFYSDA/view

Came here to post this, the only problem is that a single archetype needs 11 pages....
Wouldn't an EK or AT system but with cleric spells be simpler, is there something like that around?

[Addaran]

Enduring Mountain Stance. Ignoring the fluff disconnect of standing like a mountain while dodging everywhere, this move turns you into a mega-tank for no ki cost whatsoever. Immunity to a host of conditions and the fact that you can't be moved while imposing disadvantage on enemy attacks is really brutal for a move you get right out of the gates.


Dodging can easily be viewed as "parrying". You take your full attention to only deflecting blows. Kinda like (Defence) Expertise in 3.5 (i think that's the name, it's been so long.... -1 to-hit for +1AC)

[Zalabim]

Stoneskin. So, ignoring the errata, you could take it at 11 but you couldn't cast it until 13th, because it costs 5 ki. Then you'd probably want to wait until 14th to actually use it, so you'd have diamond soul.

[last_einheri]

I've been using this to good success. I figure the weakness in this subclass isn't really that it gets sub-par magic but just that it doesn't get features. So here's the four we've been running at my table and everything seems to work out fine. Not to strong, not too weak, just right.

FIST OF THE FOUR-FOLD PATH

Starting when you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you can imbue your unarmed strikes with elemental power. Whenever you hit a creature with one of the attacks granted by your Flurry of Blows, you can use Fire, Cold, Lightning, or Thunder damage in place of the Bludgeoning damage they would normally inflict.

BATTLE MEDITATION

At 6th level, you can use your action to enter a trance-like meditation. If you are the target of an enemy attack or spell during this time, the effect ends. If you remain in this state until the beginning of your next turn, the trance ends and you gain an amount of Ki points equal to half your monk level.

ELEMENTAL REDIRECTION

At 11th level, you can use your reaction to spend 4 Ki points and designate a new target of your choice for any Fire, Cold, Lightning, or Thunder effects that occur within 30 feet of you, as long as that target is also within 30 feet of you. If the effect is being cast as a spell, you must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw against the caster's spell save DC or you are unable to redirect the spell. When redirected the effect or spell retains all of its properties including any associated DC saves or spell attack rolls. Additionally, if you redirect such an effect onto yourself, you completely nullify it, and gain Ki points equal to half your monk level.

ELEMENTAL MASTERY

At 17th level, when you use Flurry of Blows you may spend an additional Ki point before each bonus unarmed attack to replace that attack with an elemental discipline of your choice. The additional Ki costs for the disciplines themselves remain the same.

[SharkForce]

so all you had to do was give them infinite ki and the ability to replace 4 punch attacks with 4 cone of cold spells and they're fine now?

.....


uhhh... i think you and i may have a different concept of balance.

[Farecry]

If you want to play a spellcaster then go play one of the 5 classes designed to do exactly that. If you want to spell cast with melee opportunity, Valor Bard. You don't need to fix a class when you don't want to use the class as intended. Just go use a class that is intended for what you want to do.

[R.Shackleford]

IDK where the consensus lies on the usefulness of Four Elements disciplines, but for those that want Avatar monks to get better returns on their Ki investment more often, how would this sound?

"Starting at 6th level, when you use your action to cast a spell using an Elemental Discipline, you can make one unarmed attack as a bonus action."*

I guess maybe you'd want to have something in there about only Disciplines that deal damage, but I don't know. I just imagine it as you're skilled enough in quickly firing off your moves that you can toss an extra jab in there somewhere. For those who want a fix to the consistency of damage per Ki, it seems like that would be a really intuitive, simple, and innocuous angle to approach it from.

*Or attack with a monk weapon. Maybe also throw in something about +max Ki equal to Wis modifier to help with the uses per day, especially at low levels.

Personally I think elemental abilities should be tied to Patient Defense or Step of the Wind.


LIGHTNING
Flash from the Eastern Skies
Whenever you use Step of the Wind you may select one creature within 30' of you. A streak of lightning races out and causes the target to take disadvantage on their next attack roll. A successful dexterity save negates this effect.

Traveler of the Western Skies (6th level required)
Whenever you use Step of the Wind you may forgo the normal benefits and instead teleport up to 20' away.

Storm of the Northern Skies (11th level required)
You may cast Call Lightning Once per short rest for Xki

Additionally whenever you use "Traveler of the Western Skies" while in a natural or magical lightning storm you may teleport 40' instead of 20'.

...

Do more of this and I would love to see an elemental monk in action.

[Santra]

Just pointint out errata that everyone seems to be ignoring

Eternal Mountain Defense (p. 81). A monk must be 17th level, not 11th, to learn
this discipline.

[R.Shackleford]

Just pointint out errata that everyone seems to be ignoring

Eternal Mountain Defense (p. 81). A monk must be 17th level, not 11th, to learn
this discipline.

Shhh... Nothing good comes for the elemental monk when one is talk I g about errata.

[last_einheri]

well, for the above fix, 'infinite ki' isn't really a thing.

the dm lets the player get away with a battle meditation or a redirect maybe once per combat since casters are generally not idiots. a monk who just redirected your spell calls for a change in strategy. a wizard whose fireball got pulled off the mark probably isn't going to throw another one. also keep in mind that the battle meditation fails if you are even the target of an attack or spell, not whether or not it hits. it rarely ever happens in actual practice.

and as for the 4 cones of cold, sure. that's a thing. but is it functionally different from dumping all that ki into a water whip? the only difference is that it synergizes a little better with flurry of blows, adds some flexibility, and allows the monk to still do what it could do otherwise just in a more appropriate context.

[SharkForce]

well, for the above fix, 'infinite ki' isn't really a thing.

the dm lets the player get away with a battle meditation or a redirect maybe once per combat since casters are generally not idiots. a monk who just redirected your spell calls for a change in strategy. a wizard whose fireball got pulled off the mark probably isn't going to throw another one. also keep in mind that the battle meditation fails if you are even the target of an attack or spell, not whether or not it hits. it rarely ever happens in actual practice.

and as for the 4 cones of cold, sure. that's a thing. but is it functionally different from dumping all that ki into a water whip? the only difference is that it synergizes a little better with flurry of blows, adds some flexibility, and allows the monk to still do what it could do otherwise just in a more appropriate context.

ok, you know that part where you just told me that the wizard suddenly *cannot afford to do wizard things* because your monk exists? and then there's the part where you told me that the wizard is either going to try to do wizard things (which they can't afford to do, as mentioned a moment) on the person who is nigh-impervious to wizard things so that the wizard doesn't get even more thoroughly screwed?

that's not balance. when everyone has to turn from whatever they're doing and deal with you or they get wrecked, and they don't have to react the same way to anyone else, that is not balance.

and yes, there is a difference between water whip and cone of cold. quadruple water whip (which isn't actually a possibility anyways) doesn't deal obscene amounts of AoE damage.

[ruy343]

'dat thread necromancy...

For those who would like to fix the 4-elements monk (if you read my post, you'll find that after playing one for 20+ sessions, I didn't feel that was necessary), go ahead and take it over to the homebrew forum.

Wish I was an admin so I could lock the thread...