Perception Checks Are Great But What If ....

[fishdad]

Perception checks are very important in 5E. I just need some clarification about sneaking/hidden enemies and perception checks combined with initiative order. (Forgive me I do not have the book in front of me)

Example 1: Party enters room. In the room is several hidden rogues bent on destruction. Nobody perceives the rogues. All of the rogues get a surprise round (they are all essentially acting at the same time). After they lay waste to the party, initiative is rolled and we start at the top. If the rogues win initiative they still have advantage and various other bonuses based on class, right? (like assassinate)

Example 2: Same scenario, except the ultra observant cleric in the party "perceives" the rogues. Initiative is rolled and the cleric goes last. The cleric is not surprised but everyone else is. DM rolls initiative and lets the rogues surprise everyone but the cleric. On the cleric's turn he can warn everybody else and therefore negates the 2nd round of advantage for the rogues. Does this seem okay with you all?

It sounds a little silly to me because of course the other character know the rogues are there they just going after them in initiative order. Maybe my interpretation is wrong.

Basically what is the point of having a high perception check? Besides saving the cleric from a bunch of unpleasantness the cleric cannot help his team unless the cleric can, out of turn, warn everyone in the party. Of course if the cleric wins initiative then he can stop the surprise round.

Situations get more complex when you add the Alert feat.

Maybe I'm overthinking or have a bad premise. Any help welcome.

[Kane0]

He can still do reactions i believe

But more importantly its about how the encounter is managed. Does combat begin as soon as you open the door to the room? As soon as you enter the room? After the whole party has entered and had a look around?
When does the stealth come into play? Most DMs will give some sort of chance to notice that something isnt right before the rogues spring out and attack, so a high perception chaacter can usually get out a warning of some kind that will help against surprise even if they have really low initiative and have their turn at the end of the round.

[Segev]

Remember that combat is happening FAST. While yes, the whole group of players is aware of the rogues long before anybody records damage on their character page, in the game and narrative, the surprise round happens suddenly, and the initiative is how fast people can react. Those rogues were noticed, but the cleric didn't respond fast enough; by the time his brain processed what he was seeing and got words formed at his lips, the rogues had already stricken the party once. His warning came as the blows were landing, and alerts everyone to where the harm is coming from.

In the example where nobody rolled successfully on Perception, the rogues instead get to attack, and the first anybody's even aware something is wrong is when damage is dealt. They're just shifting mental gears by the time the next round starts, and their lousy initiatives mean they haven't begun to react before that round's attacks have gone off.

Picture the oft-exaggerated-for-effect scenes where somebody sees something about to happen just as it's happening, and everything slows down as he screams "NOOOooo" and his voice drops in pitch due to the slow-down. He's moving, but too slowly to stop it, and his warning doesn't even reach people and register until it's already happening.

[PeteNutButter]

I'm pretty sure the intent is that the autocrit from assassinate can only happen once. They are no longer surprised after the first round. Even though the PCs haven't gone yet in initiative, they are not considered "surprised" at the start of the second round.

[Tanarii]

Example 1: Party enters room. In the room is several hidden rogues bent on destruction. Nobody perceives the rogues. All of the rogues get a surprise round (they are all essentially acting at the same time). After they lay waste to the party, initiative is rolled and we start at the top. If the rogues win initiative they still have advantage and various other bonuses based on class, right? (like assassinate)First of all, you roll initiative immediately when combat starts. Regardless of surprise. Unsurprised characters get to act on their initiative in the first round. Surprised characters don't.


Example 2: Same scenario, except the ultra observant cleric in the party "perceives" the rogues. Initiative is rolled and the cleric goes last. The cleric is not surprised but everyone else is. DM rolls initiative and lets the rogues surprise everyone but the cleric. On the cleric's turn he can warn everybody else and therefore negates the 2nd round of advantage for the rogues. Does this seem okay with you all?See above. But also, no the Cleric can't change anyone from 'surprised' to 'unsurprised'. If you're surprised when combat starts, you don't get to act on your turn.


Basically what is the point of having a high perception check? Besides saving the cleric from a bunch of unpleasantness the cleric cannot help his team unless the cleric can, out of turn, warn everyone in the party.It makes it less likely you'll be surprised in the first round of combat, and unable to act. Any character who fails to perceive a threat on the other side is surprised in the first round of combat, and cannot act.


Of course if the cleric wins initiative then he can stop the surprise round.No he can't.

Edit: Also, there is no such thing as a 'surprise round'.

[Segev]

Alright, now I have a question, since there are clearly people more knowledgeable about how this all works in 5e than I am: Is there any point at which the cleric who makes his Perception check can warn the other party members, such that nobody is surprised in the first round?

How long between the Perception checks and the roll of initiative can there be at most? How long must there be at least?

[Tanarii]

Before combat begins, it might be possible. It's not fixed. It's all at DM discretion. Per the PHB Combat Chapter, you follow the steps below. Note how it clearly states the DM determines who is involved and who is surprised and the position of people involved. How to determine Surprise is explained in some more detail, but it is assuming immediate combat. My answer about the cleric not being able to prevent surprise was based on the assumption that combat has begun, and the DM has compared perception to stealth, and determined characters are surprised. At that point, the cleric cannot change anything.

Combat Step by Step
1.Determine surprise. The DM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised.
2.Establish positions. The DM decides where all the characters and monsters are located. Given the adventurers’ marching order or their stated positions in the room or other location, the DM figures out where the adversaries are—how far away and in what direction.
3.Roll initiative. Everyone involved in the combat encounter rolls initiative, determining the order of combatants’ turns.
4.Take turns. Each participant in the battle takes a turn in initiative order.
5.Begin the next round. When everyone involved in the combat has had a turn, the round ends. Repeat step 4 until the fighting stops.

Edit: I assume that if the Cleric noticed the threat at some distance, and combat was not immediately initiated, the DM would (or at least could) rule that the Cleric drew everyone's attention to the threat. But he's not supposed to be able to yell "LOOK OUT" and negate other character's being surprised when the party gets jumped and initiative is already being (or has already been) rolled, from what I can see.

[E’Tallitnics]

No he can't.

What's this based on? It's entirely up to the DM if a character can speak off their turn. And they certainly can speak on their turn.

One shout of warning would suffice to warn the rest of the party.

Oh…was your post all about what happens after initiative is called for?

[Tanarii]

Oh…was your post all about what happens after initiative is called for?Yep. The entire section on surprise kind of assumes it's one side getting jumped without warning. In that case, it's too late for character's that become aware at the last second and can react to warn those that don't.

[fishdad]

Thanks for the help.

I think the two most important things I learned were that it is 1) important when combat is initiated 2) combat is so fast but we play the game so slow. It makes a lot of sense if you think about the scenario this way: Cleric perceives what is about to happen but he can only do what he would be able to do on his turn. Even if he wins initiative he cannot "un-surprise" someone for the simple fact that the entire first round (or any round) only lasts for 6 seconds.

Thanks again.

[Serket]

Side point, but per book stealth in this instance is a roll from the ambushers set again passive perception from the ambushees.


Example 2: Same scenario, except the ultra observant cleric in the party "perceives" the rogues. Initiative is rolled and the cleric goes last. The cleric is not surprised but everyone else is. DM rolls initiative and lets the rogues surprise everyone but the cleric. On the cleric's turn he can warn everybody else and therefore negates the 2nd round of advantage for the rogues. Does this seem okay with you all?

That's not how surprise works.
In the first round of combat (the surprise round), the NPCs and the cleric will get to act. The cleric will get their usual actions, including reaction.

In the second round, surprise is no longer in effect. Special abilities might or might not kick in, depending on wording, but at the very least, all of the PCs now have reactions.


Basically what is the point of having a high perception check? Besides saving the cleric from a bunch of unpleasantness the cleric cannot help his team unless the cleric can, out of turn, warn everyone in the party. Of course if the cleric wins initiative then he can stop the surprise round.

The cleric can't stop the surprise round, per book. At the point where surprise has been determined to happen, there is definitely going to be a surprise round. The cleric's initiative doesn't affect that.

The advantage of making the perception threshold is that the cleric gets to act. If they cast a spell that does something useful, maybe everyone won't get murdered. L4 Hold Person, perhaps?

[georgie_leech]

Perhaps it would help if there was more clarity that there isn't a Surprise Round like there was in 3.X. Instead, any creatures that weren't aware of the aggressors at the start of combat are Surprised. Imagine it like debut that only applies to the first round of combat: Surprised characters can't act in the first round. Shouting out that 'THEY'RE ATTACKING!' Doesn't actually do much to help unaware characters react appropriately, any more than Piccolo shouting 'DODGE!' at Gohan in DBZA helps him avoid attacks.

[FightStyles]

That's not how surprise works.
In the first round of combat (the surprise round), the NPCs and the cleric will get to act. The cleric will get their usual actions, including reaction.

In the second round, surprise is no longer in effect. Special abilities might or might not kick in, depending on wording, but at the very least, all of the PCs now have reactions.


That's also not how surprise works.

*First, surprise isn't a round, but can only occur during the first round.
Once a creature or a PC declare an attack, combat starts.
Initiative is then rolled for all creatures and PCs, even those surprised.
While surprised, the creature or PC cannot make any reactions, actions, movements, or bonus actions.
Once a creature or PC has taken their first turn, they are no longer surprised.
*This can still occur during the first round, before other creatures or PCs who weren't surprised act for the first time.

Here is my source
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/10/14/do-surprise-ends-for-a-combatant-at-the-end-of-their-first-turn/

[Tanarii]

That's also not how surprise works.Right. Surprise isn't for the first 'round'. It's until the end of the surprised character's first turn. Referring to a 'surprise round' just confuses the issue. Even if you're just trying to use it for short-hand as 'first round of combat in which there are surprised characters involved.'

[Serket]

That's also not how surprise works.

Okay, so I'll stop referring to the first round as a surprise round... even though it makes some sense to do so. But what that I actually said was wrong? In the second round of combat, the PCs will definitely have their reactions. Their first turn is the turn they miss in the first round because surprise, so they have reactions from some point during the first round onwards.

[RickAllison]

Right. Surprise isn't for the first 'round'. It's until the end of the surprised character's first turn. Referring to a 'surprise round' just confuses the issue. Even if you're just trying to use it for short-hand as 'first round of combat in which there are surprised characters involved.'

So if an effect were ever released that took away a turn, a target would still be surprised until they actually got a turn! (I don't know how or why they would implement such an effect, but I enjoy theory-crafting anyway!)

[Tanarii]

Okay, so I'll stop referring to the first round as a surprise round... even though it makes some sense to do so. But what that I actually said was wrong? In the second round of combat, the PCs will definitely have their reactions. Their first turn is the turn they miss in the first round because surprise, so they have reactions from some point during the first round onwards.The implication was they don't start getting their reactions until the start of the second round, as opposed immediately after their turn ended in the first round.


So if an effect were ever released that took away a turn, a target would still be surprised until they actually got a turn! (I don't know how or why they would implement such an effect, but I enjoy theory-crafting anyway!)Providing the wording didn't of the effect didn't imply that your turn still occurred, you just couldn't do anything with it. So I'd say yes if you 'skipped' or 'lost' your turn for some reason. (I'm willing someone would still come along and argue even in those cases your turn still was there and surprise ended.)

[RickAllison]

Providing the wording didn't of the effect didn't imply that your turn still occurred, you just couldn't do anything with it. So I'd say yes if you 'skipped' or 'lost' your turn for some reason. (I'm willing someone would still come along and argue even in those cases your turn still was there and surprise ended.)

The idea being you did lose the actual turn, and not just not being able to do anything :smallwink: Like Hold Person would prevent you from doing anything on your turn, but you still had it. Maybe something like a time displacement spell? Like I said, I don't think anything would actually show up that would have the effect :smallbiggrin:

[Malifice]

Example 1: Party enters room. In the room is several hidden rogues bent on destruction. Nobody perceives the rogues. All of the rogues get a surprise round (they are all essentially acting at the same time). After they lay waste to the party, initiative is rolled and we start at the top. If the rogues win initiative they still have advantage and various other bonuses based on class, right? (like assassinate)


There is no surprise round in 5E.

If no-one percieves the rogues, you first roll initiative. First thing you do.

Then, in initiative order, the combatants take turns, with 'surprised' creatures not being able to take any actions on their turn 1 and also being prohibited reactions until after that turn ends.


Example 2: Same scenario, except the ultra observant cleric in the party "perceives" the rogues. Initiative is rolled and the cleric goes last. The cleric is not surprised but everyone else is. DM rolls initiative and lets the rogues surprise everyone but the cleric. On the cleric's turn he can warn everybody else and therefore negates the 2nd round of advantage for the rogues. Does this seem okay with you all?

Again, youre doing it wrong mate.

You determine awareness, and then you roll initiative. In your example, on turn 1 the rogues and the clerics act normally. Everyone else misses turn 1.