Does Anyone Play Half-Elves?

[Palanan]

In Pathfinder as in 3.5, the half-elves seem barely a tepid afterthought, pale shadows of elves without a compelling feature to call their own. They have a mild advantage in multiclassing, but given that Pathfinder discourages multiclassing even that doesn't seem too inviting.

Does anyone make much use of half-elves, or are they only in the rules for form's sake, and essentially ignored in actual games?

[Jormengand]

I played a paragon surge half-elf before the nerf-bat was applied to the only thing that made them worth playing. So no, no-one plays half-elves.

[dascarletm]

I mean I'll play one if I want to... I don't know... be a half-elf...

[Extra Anchovies]

Well, half-elves have unique and pretty darn good racial FCBs for Investigator and Summoner, and they also get access to all the wacko-crazy-strong human FCBs *cough* sorcerer *cough*. They're also pretty much on par with humans if you planned to take EWP or Skill Focus.

Another thing worth noting is that Multitalented doesn't just let you pick two favored classes - as written, the extra hit point or skill rank per level in either favored class is on top of the normal favored class bonuses.

All in all, they're about on par with half-orcs; neither is mechanically up to snuff with humans overall, but they might be an equal or even better choice than human for certain builds.

[Temotei]

I have a half-elf player in my campaign right now. She picked it because she wanted to be a half-elf. I gave her a free Skill Focus because I felt like it, but she didn't pick the race for mechanics. Most of the time, I don't either.

This is 3.5, but the same thought goes for Pathfinder, except I think they already have the Skill Focus built in.

[Sayt]

I tend to play humans, dwarves or hobbos most of the time, but I have a few Half-Elf builds in the pipe.

[LTwerewolf]

You play a half elf to be a half elf, not because the mechanics are good.

[Xerlith]

Honestly, I find PF Half-Elves quite good, actually. Far cry from the broken and useless 3.5 predecessors.

Arcane Training means that they suddenly don't need Use Magic Device to use wands (just pick a decent spell list), so that's easily more than one skillpoint/level if you're a low-charisma/low-Int character.

Adaptability is, if using Retraining rules, a bonus feat. Retraining rules restrict only class feats, that meaning the Skill Focus is open for retraining as if it were a normal feat. Even if not, Adaptability itself is hefty for builds that actually need that Skill Focus (Student of War being the most obvious example), while it's Alternate Trait, Ancestral Arms, seems like a good way of picking EWP, since being a half-elf grants such a build more than being human.

They're not stellar by any means, but I don't see how they're weaker than elves, for instance. Stronger, if anything.

[Kurald Galain]

Half-elves have a couple of useful alternative abilities. They can get darkvision, or exotic weapon proficiency at level 1, or faerie fire 1/day, or +2 to all untrained skill checks; and they're good candidates for the eldritch heritage feat line. And a +2 to perception never hurt anyone.

They're not the greatest but they're really not bad either. So yes, I've played them.

[deathbymanga]

I played a Half-Elf Alchemist once. I really liked to play the idea of the permanent Outsider. They age slower than humans but faster than elves so they always grow up feeling like outsiders.

[Florian]

PF H-Elves have some definite benefits going for them, but these are keyed more to builds than to the race as a choice. (EWP, Skill Focus to engage Heritage feat chain, Darkvision, bread-and-butter Dimplomancer benefits, and so on). Ergo: The rules side is pretty good.

Personally, I simply don´t like H-Elves. Maybe a overdose of Tanis back then, maybe simply not finding the "part of two worlds" thing really engaging.

[Tuvarkz]

Well, depending on the game, they can end up as Human+ (Gestalt makes it so that you can get the most out of Multitalented). Also, their racial FCB for Warders in PoW: Expanded is pretty great to run Dex-based Zweihander sentinels (Or other types of warder)

[Eldonauran]

Some of my most interesting, and effective, characters are half-breeds. I particularly like half-elves for the various alternate racial abilities they get access to, it makes them very versatile. Versatility in a character is my bread and butter. It makes everything I play that much more interesting. If I wanted to focus on one thing above everything, I'd go with a pure race (like human, elf, gnome, etc), but I rarely do so.

I tend to play the 'half-casters', get those 6th levels spells, 3/4 BAB, a good number of skill ranks, and be that guy that fills in when the unexpected/inevitable happens.

[Wildstag]

When I play half-elves, it is because of one of two reasons.

The first reason is a mechanical advantage. If I am trying to use a build that requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency, I'll usually go Half-Elf since you can use that for a free EWP.

The second reason is they're good Human+/-. They get an extra feat that is either a Skill Focus or an EWP, and they get the "choose one stat for +2" so they're pretty versatile. I like them, and their lore is always solid no matter which edition you play. So I guess the second reason is really if I just want to play the half breed. Also because I don't like playing Half-Orcs or Half-lings. If I'm going Orcish I'm going straight Orc, and if I'm going short, I go straight Gnome or Grippli.

[dude123nice]

When I play half-elves, it is because of one of two reasons.

The first reason is a mechanical advantage. If I am trying to use a build that requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency, I'll usually go Half-Elf since you can use that for a free EWP.

The second reason is they're good Human+/-. They get an extra feat that is either a Skill Focus or an EWP, and they get the "choose one stat for +2" so they're pretty versatile. I like them, and their lore is always solid no matter which edition you play. So I guess the second reason is really if I just want to play the half breed. Also because I don't like playing Half-Orcs or Half-lings. If I'm going Orcish I'm going straight Orc, and if I'm going short, I go straight Gnome or Grippli.

They are actually even better than that. They can take almost any feat, archetype and favored class bonus that either humans or elves can take, in addition to their own. And through swapping out racial traits and feats they can gain a flat +2 bonus to Will save and additional +2 bonuses vs scrying, illusions and enchantments. And if they take a feat at level one they can even gain the elves's +2 bonus on overcoming spell resistance. All in all they are a very good race, especially for arcane casters ( who have good will saves form their classes but rarely can afford to put enough points into Wis to get a truly good Will save ), but it might take a bit of experience to know which racial traits to swap out and which feats and favored class bonuses to take.

EDIT: They also get a good racial spell, Paragon Surge which, even after the Errata nerf, is still pretty good. And a +2 bonus to Perception.

[ComaVision]

I have a player in my game that's playing a half-elf wizard, his last character was also a half-elf wizard. I have no idea what interest he has in them.

Also, basically every girl that's new to TTRPGs in my games has played a half-elf rogue wearing leather armor.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I have a player in my game that's playing a half-elf wizard, his last character was also a half-elf wizard. I have no idea what interest he has in them.

Also, basically every girl that's new to TTRPGs in my games has played a half-elf rogue wearing leather armor.

Or a ranger, I will concur. Though I have seen big strong fighters or barbarians as well.

[Spore]

I usually use Half-Elves as "something with Elvish ancestry that isn't so brittle". I heavily dislike elves but I have used a Half Drow as an NPC infiltrator and I play(ed?) an Half-Elf Oracle of Lore. I originally wanted to run Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle but my DM shut the idea down. And after two sessions and successful castings of both Phantasmal Killer and Reincarnate I play a Goblin now, the most charismatic one around.

Also mechanically I didn't care about the extra feat but I found use for Skill Focus in advancing the Eldritch Heritage, I used the Half Human Ancestry to get the extra spells and the Paragon Surge spell. If the Ancient Lorekeeper would've went through I would have had an Oracle casting wizard spells with an animal companion or (improved) familiar while offering insane Knowledge checks (results of 50+ were common), great coverage of cleric spells as well as not being bound by alignment restrictions. He would be the ultimate textbook.

[martixy]

Apparently they're pretty good in 5e. Or so I've been told.

[Milo v3]

My brother plays them a decent amount, using them whenever he wants a character to use an exotic weapon.

[ericgrau]

They seem to be good at UMD and a dual classed martial build. Though UMD alone is worse than a general bonus feat. Or swapping the skill bonus for a +2 to will saves seems nifty. There are multiple nice favored class options as well.

I think they suffer from fluff hatred as much or more than mechanics hatred. Most people would rather be an elf or a human fluffwise too.

Haven't played PF in a long time but if I got the chance I'd play one just to be different. There are lots of things I could do with dual melee or some of the favored class stuff. I couldn't find any good favored class stuff for martial builds though, which puts a bit of a damper on it since it's hard to combo the two.

[Novawurmson]

There are a number of classes with poor weapon proficiencies (or at least weapon proficiencies that can be improved for certain builds): A wakizashi for an Unchained Rogue, a solid two-hander for a melee inquisitor, mesmerist, alchemist, oracle, investigator, an elven curve blade for some dex-based builds, etc.

Getting a better weapon can stack in multiplicative ways - an alchemist with a simple two-hander will deal 1d8 damage (4.5 average) vs. 2d6 (7 average) for a martial/exotic, but with an enlarge person effect, that becomes 2d6 (7) vs 3d6 (10.5). Add in a weapon-size increasing effect (such as the impact special quality or lead blades), and you're looking at 3d6 (10.5) vs. 4d6 (14). If you can gain an effect that increases your size twice, you're comparing 4d6 (14) vs 6d6 (21). Another comparison: With a short sword, your crit chance is 19-20 (10%) vs. the wakizashi's 18-20 (15%), but with keen or equivalent, you're comparing 17-20 (20%) and 15-20 (30%).

Obviously a human bonus feat has more flexibility, but a free EWP/martial proficiency combined with the ability to pick from human, elf, and half-elf favored class bonuses can keep the half-elf competitive.

[upho]

PF H-Elves have some definite benefits going for them, but these are keyed more to builds than to the race as a choice. (EWP, Skill Focus to engage Heritage feat chain, Darkvision, bread-and-butter Dimplomancer benefits, and so on). Ergo: The rules side is pretty good.This. The strength of the helves' mechanics is typically a lot more build dependent than those of most other races. I think the benefits often fall into either "the best in the game"-category for a few builds, or the "meh"-category for most builds.


There are a number of classes with poor weapon proficiencies (or at least weapon proficiencies that can be improved for certain builds): A wakizashi for an Unchained Rogue, a solid two-hander for a melee inquisitor, mesmerist, alchemist, oracle, investigator, an elven curve blade for some dex-based builds, etc.

Getting a better weapon can stack in multiplicative ways - an alchemist with a simple two-hander will deal 1d8 damage (4.5 average) vs. 2d6 (7 average) for a martial/exotic, but with an enlarge person effect, that becomes 2d6 (7) vs 3d6 (10.5). Add in a weapon-size increasing effect (such as the impact special quality or lead blades), and you're looking at 3d6 (10.5) vs. 4d6 (14). If you can gain an effect that increases your size twice, you're comparing 4d6 (14) vs 6d6 (21). Another comparison: With a short sword, your crit chance is 19-20 (10%) vs. the wakizashi's 18-20 (15%), but with keen or equivalent, you're comparing 17-20 (20%) and 15-20 (30%).True. But I think many players seem to forget that if you gain martial weapon proficiency, EWP is typically a mere 1.5k or less (cracked Opalescent White Pyramid). Which means that after the very earliest levels, Ancestral Arms has near zero value for most builds including at least one level in a class granting martial weapon proficiency (which I believe currently includes 12 of the vanilla base classes by Paizo, quite a few of them being 6/9 casters such as the hunter, magus, skald and warpriest). So somewhat counter-intuitively, the more a build would benefit from EWP, the less value Ancestral Arms tend to have in most games, since the more weapon dependent the build's performance is, the more beneficial levels in a class granting martial weapon proficiency usually becomes for other reasons (such as offering much needed combat feats as bonus feats).

And in higher levels, I guess for quite a few of those builds which don't have or want levels in a class granting martial weapon proficiency, the loss of 10k for the non-cracked version of the ioun stone might very well be much preferred to the loss of a feat slot or all race options besides those very few available to a helf with Ancestral Arms.

In addition, for most builds that also relies on, or greatly benefit from having WF, I believe the ioun stone becomes a no-brainer regardless of Ancestral Arms in most games, since putting the ioun into a wayfinder for 0.5k will also grant WF. So IME, most builds that really want EWP can get it super cheap anyways, and quite a few of those builds will actually gain two of their most important feats for the silly low cost of 2k.


Obviously a human bonus feat has more flexibility, but a free EWP/martial proficiency combined with the ability to pick from human, elf, and half-elf favored class bonuses can keep the half-elf competitive.Yeah. Though again, I think free EWP has a value worth mentioning only for the quite rare builds that really wants to avoid dipping into a class granting martial weapon proficiency (such as a "tag team" melee summoner), or perhaps in games limited to the very earliest levels and/or games with severely restricted access to cheap magic items.

[Milo v3]

True. But I think many players seem to forget that if you gain martial weapon proficiency, EWP is typically a mere 1.5k or less (cracked Opalescent White Pyramid).
Admittedly, my group not using golarion content is why one of my players plays a half-elf, if golarion stuff was used he'd probably just use the ioun stone.

[Alex12]

I don't like playing core races in general, and I never have, but half-elves seem like they've got some neat tricks. Multitalented is great in a gestalt game, and the half-elf FCB for Investigators is cool. And, if you want a feat or PrC or something that requires Skill Focus (such as, say, Orator), well, you get that. Granted, it's not as versatile as the human ability to pick any feat, but it's pretty cool. If I were going to build a Paizo-only Linguistics build, half-elf would definitely be one of my top choices for race.

[Florian]

Yeah. Though again, I think free EWP has a value worth mentioning only for the quite rare builds that really wants to avoid dipping into a class granting martial weapon proficiency (such as a "tag team" melee summoner), or perhaps in games limited to the very earliest levels and/or games with severely restricted access to cheap magic items.

I rather think there´re two factors here:
EWP directly from the start, needed if you have to pick specific feats fast or early (WepFocus) or build-in integration with class features (Warpriest).
Second, what I´ve seen so far, people are averse to being overly dependent on items to grant them class features. Something goes wrong, you lose that feature. (Classic examples are going to a social event, like a grand ball, being thrown in prison, and so on. Btw: I laughed hard reading the Ioun Spite Bracers from Agents of Evil)

[Psyren]

PF Half-Elves are fine, and despite the crying over its nerf, paragon surge is fine too. It's still useful without becoming an Anyspell win-button.

[Amphetryon]

It seems to me that PF Half-Elves make above-average Bards, between their Knowledge check bonuses to reduce Skill point spread (and thus reduce MAD), Arcane Training, and Ancestral Arms.

[upho]

Admittedly, my group not using golarion content is why one of my players plays a half-elf, if golarion stuff was used he'd probably just use the ioun stone.Oh, I didn't know it was connected to Golarion. That may certainly make Ancestral Arms feel less redundant. (Oddly, the ioun is listed at d20pfsrd.com, which IIRC doesn't otherwise include non-OGL content from Paizo.)

[upho]

I rather think there´re two factors here:
EWP directly from the start, needed if you have to pick specific feats fast or early (WepFocus) or build-in integration with class features (Warpriest).True. Although I guess this is can often be fixed with retraining and the ioun stone a couple of levels later.


Second, what I´ve seen so far, people are averse to being overly dependent on items to grant them class features. Something goes wrong, you lose that feature. (Classic examples are going to a social event, like a grand ball, being thrown in prison, and so on.Yeah, I think this is sorta what I've seen as well. Although for most builds above the very first levels, especially martial ones, I believe people are simply kidding themselves if they think they're not severely crippled without items anyways. As a case in point, having the EWP feat rarely helps if you don't have the related weapon (which IME is typically also more at risk from not being allowed, lost or destroyed than an ioun).

And when it comes to ioun stones, the risk of losing them can often be greatly reduced by implanting them.


Btw: I laughed hard reading the Ioun Spite Bracers from Agents of Evil)They're brilliant! (Though I would've preferred a cheaper item without the lame MM ability.)

[ThinkMinty]

People play half-elves, they're popular enough to be an option in Core, so somebody's clearly playing them.

[Seward]

Any build that uses skill focus (much like Human, but with keen senses etc). Eldritch Heritage builds in particular are pretty common.

Any build that uses arcane heritage for arcane utility

Any build that wants to choose what exotic weapon it gets free proficiency with, or that wants to combine an exotic weapon build with very high strength.

The L3 spell Paragon Surge is a nice bonus, especially for spont casters, even after the eratta.

As one of the three base races who can get +2 strength, martials weigh off what they can get with what Half orc or human provides. Sometimes Halfelf comes out on top. Not often, but sometimes.

My own halfelf character is an Oracle who does full-spectrum social skills (skill focus landed in Disguise, to sort of get it as an extra class skill, and I used both traits to widen cha-based skills). I use paragon surge primairly to expand my spell list on a per-day basis, but have occasionally used it for other things.

I admit a soft spot for the "half" races. I like to pretend the other "half" isn't human. Like a half-orc dragon disciple "The other half is Dragon!". My oracle has the fiend-blooded trait, so I pretend his other half is Tiefling.

[Seward]

True. But I think many players seem to forget that if you gain martial weapon proficiency, EWP is typically a mere 1.5k or less (cracked Opalescent White Pyramid)....
In addition, for most builds that also relies on, or greatly benefit from having WF, I believe the ioun stone becomes a no-brainer regardless of Ancestral Arms in most games, since putting the ioun into a wayfinder for 0.5k will also grant WF.

The first part assumes your campaign allows cracked ioun stones and has a market for them, and is played at levels where 1.5k seems like pocket change.

The second part assumes that the wayfinder resonant effect applies to cracked stones (note - in Pathfinder Society Organized Play it requires an uncracked stone, and with a level 11 cap, 10k for a +1 to hit isn't a very good deal, at least not until you've paid 4k for the cracked stone that gives +1 competence bonus to hit and have pushed your basic enhancement bonuses to at least +3 - something that doesn't tend to happen until level 10-11 even with a dedicated push)

for a level 11-20 campaign, instead of a 1-11 campaign that allows the exotic ioun stones and wayfinder resonant factors, the ancestral arms trait isn't that great. Although in a 1-20 campaign you can always just burn a chunk of cash and time to retrain it.

[Yanisa]

(Oddly, the ioun is listed at d20pfsrd.com, which IIRC doesn't otherwise include non-OGL content from Paizo.)

D20pfsrd lists all rules from pathfinder but has to remove fluff (and because of that sometimes renames certain things) because of law-stuff.

In this specific ioun stone case (and a couple of others), it comes from Pathfinder Chronicles: Seekers of Secrets, which is out of print and has been superseded by the Pathfinder Society Field Guide. Which means the stone comes from an outdated book and has not be reprinted as far as I can find. Also the book was specifically meant for PFS and not normal PF (not that that prevents anyone from using it outside Golarian).

Thankfully Pathfinder has everything documented online (again because of law-stuff) or else the white pyramid and many of its brethren would have been lost to time by now.




But on the subject of half-elves. I am personally a big fan. For the simple reason that Elves to too snobbish and humans are too boring. :smalltongue: If I can get away with it, I always pick half-elf over human. (But I lack a really good reason, I guess I like my special snowflakes.)

[Gnorman]

People play half-elves, they're popular enough to be an option in Core, so somebody's clearly playing them.

This might be a legacy of 2e, where half-elves were one of the more popular races because of their wide multiclassing options.

Pathfinder certainly revived their popularity as compared to 3.0/3.5, but they're still the most droppable race in my mind. I've never played, nor seen played, a half-elf character in a tabletop environment.

[Jon_Dahl]

My players play half-elves because I enforce the multiclass XP penalty rule. If you don't use that, one the best reasons to play a half-elf is gone.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Well yes, that is an appealing reason to play them, if you are playing them with that archaic rule that was barely enforced in 3.5, which doesn't even exist in Pathfinder.

[Grim Reader]

I like the fluff.

[upho]

D20pfsrd lists all rules from pathfinder but has to remove fluff (and because of that sometimes renames certain things) because of law-stuff.Yes, but I'm pretty sure the law-stuff also prevents them from including stuff from certain sources. For example, you won't find the dueling weapon ability from PSFG (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dueling%20(PSFG) ) on d20pfsrd, only the very different ability from Ultimate Equipment (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/dueling) with the same name.


In this specific ioun stone case (and a couple of others), it comes from Pathfinder Chronicles: Seekers of Secrets, which is out of print and has been superseded by the Pathfinder Society Field Guide. Which means the stone comes from an outdated book and has not be reprinted as far as I can find. Also the book was specifically meant for PFS and not normal PF (not that that prevents anyone from using it outside Golarian).Hmm... Could it be that d20pfsrd cannot list PFS-specific stuff, unless from outdated books or perhaps those published before the decision to include 3rd party stuff?

[Florian]

Hm...

Personally speaking, I´ve grown to dislike D20PFSRD as a source for anything. Not accurate, too much 3PP involvement, too much reworking of stuff.

[Psyren]

All the sites have their drawbacks. The PRD is annoying because it lists things by book rather than logical connection (e.g. all the Barbarian archetypes in one place), but it's the most authoritative rules source and avoids tripping people up with third-party. Nethys is smoother and sticks to first-party w/ product identity, but it's also missing tools like Monsters by CR/Advanced Spell Search, as well as handy lists like all the alchemical items in one place. So your best bet is to use some combination of all three depending on your needs.

[Milo v3]

All the sites have their drawbacks. The PRD is annoying because it lists things by book rather than logical connection (e.g. all the Barbarian archetypes in one place), but it's the most authoritative rules source and avoids tripping people up with third-party. Nethys is smoother and sticks to first-party w/ product identity, but it's also missing tools like Monsters by CR/Advanced Spell Search, as well as handy lists like all the alchemical items in one place. So your best bet is to use some combination of all three depending on your needs.

Given how they've been making more indexes lately, I wouldn't be surprised if a archetype index that's filtered by class was next on their list.