View Full Version : Where does the term "Gish" come from?
ZhanStrider
2016-03-03, 08:11 PM
Word enthusiast here. Just wondering when and why the word "Gish" started being used to describe a PC that uses a mix of melee and magic.
Rethmar
2016-03-03, 08:19 PM
Gish was a term used to describe githyanki warrior-wizards. We just took it and started using it to describe warrior-wizards in general, since there wasn't really a word for it yet.
Kelb_Panthera
2016-03-03, 08:23 PM
Word enthusiast here. Just wondering when and why the word "Gish" started being used to describe a PC that uses a mix of melee and magic.
My understanding is that it comes from the (presumably made up) gith language back in the 2E planescape setting. Don't quote me on that.
ZhanStrider
2016-03-03, 08:35 PM
Gish was a term used to describe githyanki warrior-wizards. We just took it and started using it to describe warrior-wizards in general, since there wasn't really a word for it yet.
Cool, thanks!
Yuki Akuma
2016-03-03, 08:37 PM
I'm always saddened we didn't decide to use the githzerai version, "zerth".
Belzyk
2016-03-03, 09:19 PM
Gish is really close niche. And niche means a specialized role. Soooo A Gish would be a warrior with a specialized role. Warrior wizards are very nichey
Red Fel
2016-03-03, 09:20 PM
Gish is really close niche. And niche means a specialized role. Soooo A Gish would be a warrior with a specialized role. Warrior wizards are very nichey
Wouldn't it be the opposite? A gish is someone who has specialized as neither a warrior nor a spellcaster, but a bit of both. That's... the opposite of a specialist. A generalist, if you will.
Belzyk
2016-03-03, 09:26 PM
Wouldn't it be the opposite? A gish is someone who has specialized as neither a warrior nor a spellcaster, but a bit of both. That's... the opposite of a specialist. A generalist, if you will.
No a niche fills a specific role and is not a generalist. Pure Spellcaster are generalist and not very niche. Least that's how I see it
johnbragg
2016-03-03, 09:28 PM
Wouldn't it be the opposite? A gish is someone who has specialized as neither a warrior nor a spellcaster, but a bit of both. That's... the opposite of a specialist. A generalist, if you will.
It's fairly common for people at the borderline of two fields to be regarded as specialists. Biochemistry is a specialization in biology and chemistry departments, etc. So "eldritch warrior" would be a specialization relative to warrior or wizard.
Belzyk
2016-03-03, 09:30 PM
It's fairly common for people at the borderline of two fields to be regarded as specialists. Biochemistry is a specialization in biology and chemistry departments, etc. So "eldritch warrior" would be a specialization relative to warrior or wizard.
Yes so it would be a niche role. But a wizard would not be a niche role nor would a warrior. That's what I'm trying to say. To me Gish is a cool sounding way of saying g Niche and have it relevant to dnd.
atemu1234
2016-03-03, 09:42 PM
Gish was a term used to describe githyanki warrior-wizards. We just took it and started using it to describe warrior-wizards in general, since there wasn't really a word for it yet.
This is the basic meaning; it dates back to earlier editions as well, though how far back is a question for the aeons.
Âmesang
2016-03-03, 09:48 PM
Aww, and here I was hoping more players were Smashing Pumpkins fans. :smallfrown:
This is the basic meaning; it dates back to earlier editions as well, though how far back is a question for the aeons.
It's not that hard a question to answer. My copy of the 1e Fiend Folio describes githyanki warrior-mages as gishes, and while I may be wrong about this, I think the Fiend Folio was the first book with githyanki in it. The copyright page says 1981.
I wouldn't be flabbergasted if someone finds an earlier reference, but that's probably damn close to the original.
johnbragg
2016-03-04, 02:56 AM
It's not that hard a question to answer. My copy of the 1e Fiend Folio describes githyanki warrior-mages as gishes, and while I may be wrong about this, I think the Fiend Folio was the first book with githyanki in it. The copyright page says 1981.
I wouldn't be flabbergasted if someone finds an earlier reference, but that's probably damn close to the original.
But the question is not really about githyanki warrior-mages, it's about human and demihuman fighter-mages and the like. I doubt that anyone had or needed a word for fighter-mages in 1e or 2e. They were multi-classed fighter-mages, they were mechanically uniform. The term "gish" is useful because in 3X there are an endless variety of ways to be a guy with a sword who casts arcane spells.
It's not that hard a question to answer. My copy of the 1e Fiend Folio describes githyanki warrior-mages as gishes, and while I may be wrong about this, I think the Fiend Folio was the first book with githyanki in it. The copyright page says 1981.
I wouldn't be flabbergasted if someone finds an earlier reference, but that's probably damn close to the original.
this, but I thought it came from some module.
But the question is not really about githyanki warrior-mages, it's about human and demihuman fighter-mages and the like. I doubt that anyone had or needed a word for fighter-mages in 1e or 2e. They were multi-classed fighter-mages, they were mechanically uniform. The term "gish" is useful because in 3X there are an endless variety of ways to be a guy with a sword who casts arcane spells.
Good point, but I recall the term being used of fighter-mages in the days of 2E.
What we don't have are terms for other combos - specifically Rogue-Mages, which are quite common.
We do have the term Theurge I suppose, though I'm not sure where this comes from ?
Zombimode
2016-03-04, 05:24 AM
We do have the term Theurge I suppose, though I'm not sure where this comes from ?
I wouldn't be surprised if the PRC is actually the trope namer here.
I'm always saddened we didn't decide to use the githzerai version, "zerth".
IIRC, zerths are simply multiclass githzerai. Much less specific than gish, who are fighter/spellcasters.
Inevitability
2016-03-04, 06:30 AM
I'm always saddened we didn't decide to use the githzerai version, "zerth".
Someone build a time machine and give it to this man!
Thurbane
2016-03-04, 07:09 AM
Some people will tell you it originated in the 1e Fiend Folio (p.43) back in 1981, but don't be deceived! (It was a term used for a 4th level Fighter/magic User Githyanki).
1920s actress Lillian Gish was not only an accomplished thespian, but also a warrior and arcanist of fearsome power! Legend says she had a pact with an ancient red dragon she used as a steed, and also a vorpal silver sword that could cut the silver cord of even mind-barred individuals!
Gaze upon her and tremble!
http://i68.tinypic.com/23hkuif.jpg
Khedrac
2016-03-04, 07:19 AM
Most of the monsters from Fiend Folio were originally published in White Dwarf magazine (published by Games Workshop not TSR) and I think were submissions from the general public.
I don't know if this applies to the Githyanki and Githzerai which were created by Charles Stross.
Charles Stross is contactable, though he no longer plays D&D he is involved in the Laundry Files RPG (based on the series of book by Charles) so one could ask him if he remembers where he got the term from.
Darrin
2016-03-04, 08:53 AM
Charles Stross is contactable, though he no longer plays D&D he is involved in the Laundry Files RPG (based on the series of book by Charles) so one could ask him if he remembers where he got the term from.
I don't think he'd know. The term "gish" doesn't appear in either White Wolf #12 or the original Fiend Folio. (Incidentally, the term "githyanki" was purloined from George R.R. Martin's novel Dying of the Light, but Martin did not give a description.) [Edit: Apparently it is mentioned in the 1st edition Fiend Folio.]
As far as I can determine, the term first appears in print in Allen Rogers' "Fedifensor" scenario published in Dragon #67 (November 1982). It's not explicitly defined, but from the context it refers to any "4th/4th Ftr/M-U" as a 'Gish' (in single quotes).
Thurbane
2016-03-04, 09:03 AM
I don't think he'd know. The term "gish" doesn't appear in either White Wolf #12 or the original Fiend Folio. (Incidentally, the term "githyanki" was purloined from George R.R. Martin's novel Dying of the Light, but Martin did not give a description.)
As far as I can determine, the term first appears in print in Allen Rogers' "Fedifensor" scenario published in Dragon #67 (November 1982). It's not explicitly defined, but from the context it refers to any "4th/4th Ftr/M-U" as a 'Gish' (in single quotes).
The term Gish appears in the 1E Fiend Folio when describing a raiding party of Githyanki - the Gish is a 4th level Fighter/4th level Magic User: I believe this predates the Dragon Magazine.
The term Gish appears in the 1E Fiend Folio when describing a raiding party of Githyanki - the Gish is a 4th level Fighter/4th level Magic User: I believe this predates the Dragon Magazine.
From the same source:
Githyanki are credited to Charles Stross (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Stross) (p121) so it's originally from White Dwarf.
Apparently he got the idea from George R. R. Martin's book Dying of the Light. Now I've no idea whether the term Gish appears in that book ? Has anyone read this ?
Darrin
2016-03-04, 09:41 AM
The term Gish appears in the 1E Fiend Folio when describing a raiding party of Githyanki - the Gish is a 4th level Fighter/4th level Magic User: I believe this predates the Dragon Magazine.
Thank you. I couldn't track down a copy of the original FF, and I assumed the text was the same as the original White Dwarf article. I shouldn't have made that assumption.
From the same source:
Githyanki are credited to Charles Stross (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Stross) (p121) so it's originally from White Dwarf.
Gish doesn't appear in the White Wolf article. The entry in the Fiend Folio may have been edited by someone else. I don't have a copy handy to check.
Apparently he got the idea from George R. R. Martin's book Dying of the Light. Now I've no idea whether the term Gish appears in that book ? Has anyone read this ?
Githyanki are briefly mentioned as an alien race, but Martin doesn't give them a description. As far as I know (I don't have access to the text), "gish" never appears in the book.
paranoidbox
2016-03-04, 10:01 AM
Good point, but I recall the term being used of fighter-mages in the days of 2E.
What we don't have are terms for other combos - specifically Rogue-Mages, which are quite common.
Yeah, I remember playing a Gish back in 2nd edition. It was clumsier than what you could do in 3rd edition, but that may have had more to do with my system mastery back then than anything else.
As a word enthusiast myself, I would be interested in having a term for a Rogue/Mage. Maybe we should humor Yuki Akuma and officially call such a character a Zerth :D
Are there any other classic combos that we don't have words for?
johnbragg
2016-03-04, 10:27 AM
Yeah, I remember playing a Gish back in 2nd edition. It was clumsier than what you could do in 3rd edition, but that may have had more to do with my system mastery back then than anything else.
As a word enthusiast myself, I would be interested in having a term for a Rogue/Mage. Maybe we should humor Yuki Akuma and officially call such a character a Zerth :D
Are there any other classic combos that we don't have words for?
Arcane Trickers, Divine Tricksters, Divine Gishes all lack single-word descriptors. Do they need them? I don't know, I never thought arcane warriors needed a single word name.
Darrin
2016-03-04, 10:32 AM
Ok, finally located a copy of the original Fiend Folio. Comparing that to the original White Dwarf...
Both the White Dwarf article and the Fiend Folio were edited by Don Turnbull. The FF version is more extensive, and is the first occurrence of the term "gish" in print. So two theories come to mind:
1) Charles Stross developed the backstory for the githyanki and came up with the term, but Don Turnbull had to cut it down for the magazine article. Don had more room in the Fiend Folio, so he used a more complete version of Stross' submission to go into more detail.
2) The White Dwarf submission was originally that short, and Don Turnbull felt the Fiend Folio entry needed more detail, so he wrote up a more developed backstory for them, based on Charles Stross' original idea.
So... contacting Charles Stross might settle the question more definitively.
paranoidbox
2016-03-04, 10:45 AM
Arcane Trickers, Divine Tricksters, Divine Gishes all lack single-word descriptors. Do they need them? I don't know, I never thought arcane warriors needed a single word name.
A Divine Gish should be called a Dish, I think that's obvious and there can be no objections.
EDIT: Not sure if I should have made clearer that I'm making a joke. So I'll edit this in ;-p
LoyalPaladin
2016-03-04, 10:53 AM
We really should have a GitP terminology handbook with all these easily accessible. Probably would be good to put in abbreviations too.
Malimar
2016-03-04, 10:55 AM
We really should have a GitP terminology handbook with all these easily accessible. Probably would be good to put in abbreviations too.
Yes, such a thing would undoubtedly be useful (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?18512-Common-Acronyms-Abbreviations-and-Terms). Though that was last updated in 2008, so it lacks concepts like "Rudisplorker".
LoyalPaladin
2016-03-04, 11:46 AM
Yes, such a thing would undoubtedly be useful (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?18512-Common-Acronyms-Abbreviations-and-Terms). Though that was last updated in 2008, so it lacks concepts like "Rudisplorker".
Well. That's going into my signature's useful thread links...
I shot Charles Stross an email, if he responds, I'll post it here.
A Divine Gish should be called a Dish, I think that's obvious and there can be no objections.
I thought they were called CoDzilla, or were you thinking about some other kind of Dish ?
Thurbane
2016-03-04, 08:58 PM
My scanner isn't set up right now, so I dug out the FF and took a photo:
http://i63.tinypic.com/29m7sip.jpg
Some great monsters originated (or were collected) in the 1E FF: Aarakocra, Bullywug, Crypt Thing, Death Knight, Ettercap, Githyanki, Githzerai, Grell, Huecuva, Jermaline, Kuo Toa, Son of Kyuss...
My scanner isn't set up right now, so I dug out the FF and took a photo:
As brief addendum, Charles Stross responded, and since the last time he did RPGs was the early '80s, he doesn't really recall if it has an earlier origin than the FF in 1st edition. I'd imagine it's a word he came up with.
Khedrac
2016-03-05, 02:39 AM
As brief addendum, Charles Stross responded, and since the last time he did RPGs was the early '80s, he doesn't really recall if it has an earlier origin than the FF in 1st edition. I'd imagine it's a word he came up with.
Thank-you (and him).
paranoidbox
2016-03-05, 10:10 PM
I thought they were called CoDzilla, or were you thinking about some other kind of Dish ?
Hm yeah, I always figured a CoDzilla was a divine caster that can and will do everything better than everyone else, not just personal combat, but I suppose it makes sense to use that term instead of Dish. (Darnit.)
Hm yeah, I always figured a CoDzilla was a divine caster that can and will do everything better than everyone else, not just personal combat, but I suppose it makes sense to use that term instead of Dish. (Darnit.)
CoDzilla is specifically Cleric or Druid I thought.
Kelb_Panthera
2016-03-06, 04:12 AM
CoDzilla is specifically Cleric or Druid I thought.
That's where the term comes from; C(leric)o(r)D(ruid)zilla; but there's no real reason it couldn't also apply to archivist. Favored soul, shugenja, etc tend to be far less capable of stomping all over campaigns like a particularly large, nuclear lizard stomping all over a certain Japanese capital. They're not incapable of it entirely, just much less so than their T1 cousins.
Eldan
2016-03-06, 06:59 AM
My scanner isn't set up right now, so I dug out the FF and took a photo:
http://i63.tinypic.com/29m7sip.jpg
Some great monsters originated (or were collected) in the 1E FF: Aarakocra, Bullywug, Crypt Thing, Death Knight, Ettercap, Githyanki, Githzerai, Grell, Huecuva, Jermaline, Kuo Toa, Son of Kyuss...
I had no idea Kyuss went that far back.
That's where the term comes from; C(leric)o(r)D(ruid)zilla; but there's no real reason it couldn't also apply to archivist. Favored soul, shugenja, etc tend to be far less capable of stomping all over campaigns like a particularly large, nuclear lizard stomping all over a certain Japanese capital. They're not incapable of it entirely, just much less so than their T1 cousins.
This is true, I guess the term originated before archivist was a thing. Also because it would be hard to work into the acronym, and it isn't as popular a class.
zergling.exe
2016-03-06, 06:36 PM
This is true, I guess the term originated before archivist was a thing. Also because it would be hard to work into the acronym, and it isn't as popular a class.
Well you could have CADzilla, or even CoDzillA. Not really that hard to put them in there.
Gnorman
2016-03-07, 01:24 AM
It seems the natural thing to do is to drop the class-specific modifiers and call it simply a Zilla.
paranoidbox
2016-03-07, 07:05 AM
It seems the natural thing to do is to drop the class-specific modifiers and call it simply a Zilla.
Kinda destroys the pun though. How about God's Zilla?
johnbragg
2016-03-07, 08:48 AM
That's where the term comes from; C(leric)o(r)D(ruid)zilla; but there's no real reason it couldn't also apply to archivist. Favored soul, shugenja, etc tend to be far less capable of stomping all over campaigns like a particularly large, nuclear lizard stomping all over a certain Japanese capital. They're not incapable of it entirely, just much less so than their T1 cousins.
I think part of it is that non-cleric non-druid CoDzillas are not that common. I don't think players who want to play archivists and favored souls and shujenga(s) are designing melee combat monsters (or zen archers). Anyone who wants to CoDzilla in a Tier 1 game is going Cleric or Druid. Anyone who wants to CoDzilla in a "No Tier 1s" game is probably going to go Crusader, or do something complicated.
EDIT: Oh, and I'd vote that "CoDzilla" is main a term for melee clerics, and maybe Zen Archers. IF you're using a lot of spell slots for divinations and minionmancy, you're not a CoDzilla--today. Check back tomorrow.
Well you could have CADzilla, or even CoDzillA. Not really that hard to put them in there.
Yeah but Archivist is surely not the only other class you can do this kind of build with. There are probably a few other Divine classes that accomplish the same, and you can't jam them all in.
I think part of it is that non-cleric non-druid CoDzillas are not that common. I don't think players who want to play archivists and favored souls and shujenga(s) are designing melee combat monsters (or zen archers). Anyone who wants to CoDzilla in a Tier 1 game is going Cleric or Druid. Anyone who wants to CoDzilla in a "No Tier 1s" game is probably going to go Crusader, or do something complicated.
EDIT: Oh, and I'd vote that "CoDzilla" is main a term for melee clerics, and maybe Zen Archers. IF you're using a lot of spell slots for divinations and minionmancy, you're not a CoDzilla--today. Check back tomorrow.
Well I can see players taking levels in favoured soul for the melee purpose - though obviously not using the DMM trick. Now Cleric > Favoured soul for this purpose but that's an issue with their system mastery and class design. Favoured soul is obviously meant to be able to do this, which it does - just not as well as Cleric.
johnbragg
2016-03-07, 11:41 AM
Well I can see players taking levels in favoured soul for the melee purpose - though obviously not using the DMM trick. Now Cleric > Favoured soul for this purpose but that's an issue with their system mastery and class design. Favoured soul is obviously meant to be able to do this, which it does - just not as well as Cleric.
Huh. Yeah, I thought Favored Soul lost more melee than it does. So they're one feat away from being CoDzilla (Armor Proficiency: Heavy), but then their build can't really do much else.
Huh. Yeah, I thought Favored Soul lost more melee than it does. So they're one feat away from being CoDzilla (Armor Proficiency: Heavy), but then their build can't really do much else.
Well you need roughly 2 spells known per spell level for the Healbot/Fixup role, and about the same for melee, so I think you can just pull it off. Obviously Domains + TU would be quite useful but it's better at this than Fighter.
johnbragg
2016-03-07, 01:11 PM
Well you need roughly 2 spells known per spell level for the Healbot/Fixup role, and about the same for melee, so I think you can just pull it off. Obviously Domains + TU would be quite useful but it's better at this than Fighter.
Restating: It can't do much compared to the Core cleric. "Better than Fighter" is not a useful measuring stick. It's a Tier 2, so it has to pick a role or two and focus on them, and its chassis works well with melee and doesn't give players an obvious reason to dump melee to focus on something else.
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