Would Vecna ever spill secrets?

[crunchykoolaid]

So for an upcoming game I want the players, who are mostly good-aligned, to have to work with some of Vecna's followers in order to gain secrets they wouldn't normally be able to know. The problem is this:

Vecna, as the God of Secrets, is pretty much extremely opposed to giving out secrets to anyone, especially good players.

My rationale for this is that the BBEG is on the verge of discovering secrets that Vecna sees as more valuable than those he would give to the players. He therefore is grudgingly ok with giving these secrets (about hidden magic and stuff) to the players in order to protect the bigger, more important secrets (about the nature of reality and time-space).

Does this make sense from a divine motivational standpoint for Vecna? Is there a better way to do this? Or am I on the right track?

[Jack_Simth]

So for an upcoming game I want the players, who are mostly good-aligned, to have to work with some of Vecna's followers in order to gain secrets they wouldn't normally be able to know. The problem is this:

Vecna, as the God of Secrets, is pretty much extremely opposed to giving out secrets to anyone, especially good players.

My rationale for this is that the BBEG is on the verge of discovering secrets that Vecna sees as more valuable than those he would give to the players. He therefore is grudgingly ok with giving these secrets (about hidden magic and stuff) to the players in order to protect the bigger, more important secrets (about the nature of reality and time-space).

Does this make sense from a divine motivational standpoint for Vecna? Is there a better way to do this? Or am I on the right track?
In most of the cannon, Vecna was a man who turned lich who turned god. Personal power was, ultimately, most of his motivation. Secrets are power, yes, but they're only power if you use them. Handing them out selectively to make something else happen? That's one of the ways to use secrets. Vecna won't be answering arbitrary questions, nor having his clerics do so, but handing out the things that will make his goals happen? Absolutely. He'll be grudging, but that's just weighing costs vs. benefits.

[Tiktakkat]

Sounds like a pretty Vecna thing to do.
The only thing you are missing is some more direct, and more importantly, indirect advantage to Vecna.

The first is probably the easiest - will Vecna gain by having the PCs have to come to him for help?
Will Vecna, or at least one of his followers, be able to hold it over their head in the future?
Will they be able to use it to get the PCs discover some other secret for Vecna as payment?
Which of course would mean Vecna now has the "secret" that the PCs worked for him, setting up a cycle.

For the other, Vecna through his history always seems to win even when defeated.
So what is Vecna's fallback plan here?
How does Vecna gain even if the PCs fail?
Will the BBEG try some crazy apotheosis scheme that Vecna can subvert?
Even better, can Vecna set it up so that the PCs thwarting the BBEG subverts the power transfer in the apotheosis scheme?

[elonin]

Does your plot require that your players know they're working for Vecna? Even if so I'd make them work to realize who they are getting help from.

[Hecuba]

The worth of your own secrets comes in keeping them.

The worth of other people's secrets comes from the advantages you get from disclosing them (or choosing not to do so, for now).

[Blackhawk748]

For the other, Vecna through his history always seems to win even when defeated.
So what is Vecna's fallback plan here?

Yes. Channel your inner Xanatos when being Vecna. Vecna always, always gets something, even if it seems insignificant.

[AvatarVecna]

Wouldn't you like to know? :smallamused:

A bit more seriously, consider this: secrets are important because knowledge is power. Some pieces of knowledge will be kept secret, because Vecna does not wish to have that power used against him, while some will be surrendered...but never for free. If Vecna is willing to surrender knowledge, it is because the knowledge getting out is something that will lead to no problems (for him) and at most minor problems (for his followers). Vecna is always planning, always calculating, always considering the potential benefits and consequences of his actions. But what is the value of information that leads to little power on a deity scale? The answer comes from economics: most information, most secrets, cost Vecna nothing to obtain...so the value of the secret is purely determined by the demand for it, by the desire of those that seek it.

Keep in mind that, even before ascending to godhood, Vecna was the paranoid munchkin wizard, and doesn't so much as blink without a dozen contingency plans for in case somebody pulls time manipulation shenanigans to bypass his portfolio sense and take advantage of his closed eyelids likely considered losing the need to blink as one of the tertiary benefits of the lich transformation. Of course, he's not paranoid as much as very calculating. Assume there's always some plan going on in the background that you're not picking up on, and accept that (unless you've reached deity-buster levels of gameplay) that you won't be able to figure it out and foil it, even by accident.

Now, about actually giving out information. Firstly, never give out information for free; sure, you can present it to player's as a gift of free knowledge, but have someone come calling for payment later on; alternatively, have Vecna (or his followers) offer valuable information relevant to the PCs quest as in-game stated "free of charge" information, specifically to make them overly paranoid about literally the entire quest (this works especially well if it occurs about halfway through a quest that's seemed pretty normal so far, since they'll be second-guessing everything that's come beforehand). With all other information, request a price, or offer several price options, each of which is a bad deal or a trap in a subtly different way; this deal should never be in the favor of the PCs (or if it is, it is only in their favor to drive them to paranoia, as above), and should always grant Vecna or his followers more relative power than it granted those asking.

We can discuss repayment for this little insight later on.

[crunchykoolaid]

Thanks for the great suggestions guys! To answer some of the more detailed questions, Vecna knows the BBEG has discovered an ancient ritual that siphons divine energy away from the gods to turn the user into a demigod, similar to the way Ur-Priests power their spells.

Vecna, seeing this as a threat to his power and also realizing the value of knowing the ritual to hold it over the other gods' heads, plans on telling the PCs enough magical juju to get past the BBEG's heavy fortifications, as long as they promise to give him the ritual for "safekeeping" as he says it is "too dangerous for mortal hands". He doesn't, of course, tell the PCs exactly what the ritual is or what it does.

I'm also toying with the idea of giving the PCs dreams where they see the BBEG and his minions preparing the ritual, with Vecna selectively showing them the parts that make it seem too dangerous and capital-E Evil for their taste. This is also a chance for BBEG characterization without having to have him show up with the PCs and risk an early defeat.

Edit: Also, AvatarVecna himself! I'm not worthy!

[AvatarVecna]

Thanks for the great suggestions guys! To answer some of the more detailed questions, Vecna knows the BBEG has discovered an ancient ritual that siphons divine energy away from the gods to turn the user into a demigod, similar to the way Ur-Priests power their spells.

Vecna, seeing this as a threat to his power and also realizing the value of knowing the ritual to hold it over the other gods' heads, plans on telling the PCs enough magical juju to get past the BBEG's heavy fortifications, as long as they promise to give him the ritual for "safekeeping" as he says it is "too dangerous for mortal hands". He doesn't, of course, tell the PCs exactly what the ritual is or what it does.

The player's may suspect Vecna for getting involved at all, and might suspect the ritual as being dangerous to Vecna. If you have Vecna imply that the ritual's completion would be inconvenient for him, but not really dangerous, while also implying that it would be more than "inconvenient" for the PCs and their goals (off-hand remarks about how rebuilding a planet and restarting so many plans already in the works would be "inconvenient" might do the trick, or something a bit more subtle). This distracts the PCs from searching for Vecna's motivation by offering a plausible explanation that makes this a big deal for them, a small deal for him, but important enough to warrant his attention.


I'm also toying with the idea of giving the PCs dreams where they see the BBEG and his minions preparing the ritual, with Vecna selectively showing them the parts that make it seem too dangerous and capital-E Evil for their taste. This is also a chance for BBEG characterization without having to have him show up with the PCs and risk an early defeat.

This might be a good way to include some visuals in the previously mentioned deceit:

"You see, I have so many plans in the works, so many plots not yet completed, that having to start all over would be..."

*dream state displays the planet cracking in two, or something similarly large-scale*

"...inconvenient, at best. You are well-positioned to prevent this, unlike my agents, and you seem capable enough to handle the problem, so I will grant you a boon, in exchange for...a favor: the ritual that can bring about this wide-spread destruction will be given to me, once you recover it. Bringing it about again would be possible, if one were to research, but at least then, the research would have to be done from the ground up, rather than from just using the already-created ritual book...since recovering that copy would require them to steal it from my personal library."

EDIT:
Edit: Also, AvatarVecna himself! I'm not worthy!

*tips hat*

[Coidzor]

Vecna will reveal things when he stands to benefit, especially in the long term.

If and when he does so, it will generally be subtly, given what happened last time he acted overtly.

As for do-gooders? Usually easier to manipulate in many ways than evil dudes less invested in doing right.

[atemu1234]

Vecna will reveal things when he stands to benefit, especially in the long term.

If and when he does so, it will generally be subtly, given what happened last time he acted overtly.

As for do-gooders? Usually easier to manipulate in many ways than evil dudes less invested in doing right.

Plus, it's a good idea to keep Vecna's identity a secret, to avoid setting off any moral alarm-bells.

[Jowgen]

Have you read the Dragon Mag 348 arcticle on him? It characterizes him and his follwers quite well.

To my knowledge, Vecna believes that there is one secret for every being in existence that can give one true power over that being. This shows in how members of his clergy live and rise in station by gathering intel on each other that they can use to blackmail and protect themselves from other people blackmailing. Also, Vecna is nothing if not patient. So, in my mind, situations that would prompt Vecna to reveal a secret are those where doing so would in some way allow him to get access to a better secret. For example, he might reveal the means to enter a most ancient sealed temple, if doing so would ensure that he can learn the secrets rumored to be contained within.

I think it was also in one of the splat-books that explained that most casters who are indoctrinated into Vecna's cult don't even know that its a Vecna cult; learning that only after they've managed to maneuver themselves quite a few ranks up in the hierarchy.