Path of War & TWF stance question

[thecrimsondawn]

The Battle Dragon's Stance shows the disciple how to balance his fighting style and through this centering of being, he may find speed, finesse, and power. While in the Battle Dragon's Stance, the disciple reduces his two-weapon fighting penalties by 2, and gains a +4 bonus to Initiative checks and adds 1d6 + initiation modifier to melee damage while fighting with two weapons. is a stance where when you are TWF you gain a really nice damage bonus on each hit. I am thinking about trying a build around this, but a question comes to my mind.
PoW aside, you can only TWF when you do a full attack action, but what counts as TWF exactly? What I mean by this is you are able to for whatever reason attack with your off hand and your main hand in the same round, would that be TWF? If you are able to make more then one attack in a round thanks to say - high BAB, could you choose to attack with your off hand weapon instead of TWF?
PoW has quite a few things that allow you to make an attack with both hands, or an extra unarmed attack, or make a second strike as part of a strike action, things like that, so just mining for information here.

Thanks for your time :)

[Anlashok]

TWF is a specific thing you can do while full attacking to add additional attacks at the cost of to-hit penalties.

Simply using the attacks granted to you by your BAB is not two weapon fighting, regardless of how many weapons you use.

A character holding two swords with 17 BAB could make one attack with each sword and the third attack with a kick and it would not be TWF.

[LTwerewolf]

while fighting with two weapons.

Are you fighting with two weapons? If yes, you get the bonus. If no, you do not get the bonus. Armor spikes and greatsword? Two weapon fighting. No need for using a weapon in each hand except where it specifically says.

The description of the discipline includes this:


Many Thrashing Dragon maneuvers require that its practitioner be wielding two weapons (one in each hand or one weapon and unarmed strike), wielding a double weapon, using natural weapons, or be unarmed to utilize them.

Bolded for emphasis. Many means it has to call out specifically.

[Darrin]

Are you fighting with two weapons? If yes, you get the bonus. If no, you do not get the bonus. Armor spikes and greatsword? Two weapon fighting. No need for using a weapon in each hand except where it specifically says.


It's a little more complicated than that. When you have a high enough BAB to make multiple iterative attacks, it is possible to be armed with multiple weapons and switch between then as part of your full attack routine. The TWF penalties only apply if you are using the TWF rules to gain an extra offhand attack. If you have BAB +6 and are armed with a sword and a dagger, it is possible to make a sword attack and a dagger attack but not actually use the TWF penalties.

At least, that's one way to interpret the rules. Some people insist that if you attack with two weapons, even if you don't get the extra offhand attack, then the TWF penalties should be applied. (Ok, mostly it's just Gwendol, but he's very firm in his beliefs.)

Armor spikes and greatsword is not the best example, because the Pathfinder devs got really twitchy with people trying to use greatswords and armor spikes with TWF, so they went out of their way to put something in the FAQ to ixnay using TWF while wielding a two-handed weapon. Except then you just point out what about unarmed strikes, but that just drags everything into the Black Whole of Impenetrable Stupidity that sucks up anything related to unarmed strikes.

As far as the stance goes, it only applies when you have a TWF penalty, which only happens when you get an extra offhand attack. If you have a high enough BAB and are just switching your primary weapon in between attacks, this does not incur a TWF penalty (for most people, anyway), so the stance doesn't do anything for you.

[LTwerewolf]

If you're weapon switching you're not fighting with two weapons simultaneously.

[MilleniaAntares]

As stated, you are TWFing when you specifically perform the full-attack action. In my view, if a maneuver tells you you need to use two weapons to attack, then you take TWFing penalties and benefits as usual. Same when you use the Thrashing Dragon Style line of feats.

Same when you use two attacks on an AoO, like from the fighter archetype.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

It's also possible, through some Thrashing Dragon strikes or the Thrashing Dragon Style in PoW: Ex, to TWF (make an attack with two different weapons at full BAB with the TWF penalty) on non-full action strikes.

[Andreaz]

If you're weapon switching you're not fighting with two weapons simultaneously.
Visually you are: Suppose your BAB is 16, allowing you to make 4 attacks on a full attack.

Now you are wielding two axes. With the left axe you attack twice, with the right axe you also attack twice.
You did 4 attacks, using 2 weapons at the same time.

But it was not two-weapon fighting. It was just a normal full attack that happened to use two weapons.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

TWF is, in game terms, using an extra (referred to as an off-hand) weapon to get extra attacks you wouldn't normally have. It is possible to get these outside of a full-attack, however, through various ways.

[LTwerewolf]

Visually you are: Suppose your BAB is 16, allowing you to make 4 attacks on a full attack.

Now you are wielding two axes. With the left axe you attack twice, with the right axe you also attack twice.
You did 4 attacks, using 2 weapons at the same time.

But it was not two-weapon fighting. It was just a normal full attack that happened to use two weapons.

That's not how it works. You can change it to be that way if you want, but it makes a big difference, especially if the enchantments on the two weapons are different.


Let's go back to the definition, shall we?

Two Weapon Fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Two-Weapon-Fighting) doesn't say anything about full attacks. It says things about penalties when using two weapons. That's all. That's two weapon fighting. If you get to make an attack with each weapon, such as with many thrashing dragon maneuvers, you're still two weapon fighting, no full attack necessary.

[squiggit]

Two Weapon Fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Two-Weapon-Fighting) doesn't say anything about full attacks. It says things about penalties when using two weapons. That's all. That's two weapon fighting. If you get to make an attack with each weapon, such as with many thrashing dragon maneuvers, you're still two weapon fighting, no full attack necessary.

The link you provided specifically mentions getting an extra attack.

If you are not getting an extra attack, you are not using TWF.

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9onf <- also from this FAQ

Yes. Basically, you only incur TWF penalties if you are trying to get an extra attack per round.

[LTwerewolf]

Extra attack =/= full attack.