Help me convince my DM that Warforged aren't OP

[Jarmen4u]

Hey playground,

I'm in a campaign running the Out of the Abyss, and the whole party is as follows: Warforged Fighter (me), Moon Elf Bard, Human Paladin, Tiefling Warlock, and Changeling Wizard. Due to our predicament, most of the characters (read: all but me) have at least 1 level of exhaustion, some 2. This is causing some frustration with the DM and a few other players.

This is also far from the first time they've complained about my racial traits. (In fact, almost every single week it's something new.) Previously, they've argued why I should be able to stay aware while resting, or why I get short rests, or why I don't get exhausted, or whether I can sink or float in water, or if I can swim, or why I'm immune to disease, or if Warforged are affected by Hold Person-type spells that only target humanoids etc. Now, this is coming from a party of people who can alter self at will, are immune to sleep, darkvision, and whatever else they all get as bonuses. They act as if none of their bonuses or traits are worth anything.

Anyway, to the point. Help me convince my party and DM that I, as a Warforged, are not extremely overpowered and oppressive to their enjoyment of the game.

As an aside, I've offered to just kill him off and start over if it causes this much grief, but the DM has refused.

[Talamare]

Aren't Warforged technically immune to sleep?

Altho, you're supposed to be affected by Hold Person

Also... Why aren't you gaining exhaustion?

[Hairfish]

If you're using the Warforged from the UA Eberron article, they are humanoids for all purposes, including Hold Person, and aren't immune to exhaustion. They just don't have to sleep, eat, or drink, so those aren't sources of exhaustion for them. If you're using some homebrew thing you found elsewhere online, odds are that it's overpowered; most homebrew is.

If your party isn't grateful to have a companion who doesn't deplete their meager food and water resources, can guard them while they sleep, and still be able to operate at full efficiency when they can't, consider strangling the biggest whiner in their sleep and butchering them to feed to the rest of the party.

Your DM allowed you to play a warforged, presumably with at least an iota of awareness that survival was a major theme of the campaign, then wouldn't let you switch. He has absolutely zero room to complain.

Your fellow players probably feel like dumb****s for not bringing a single character capable of helping the party survive and are taking it out on the player whose character doesn't need that much help.

Frankly, you may want to consider finding a more mature group.

[NiklasWB]

What version of the Warforged are you using? If you are using the unearthed arcana one then I don't see WHY you would be immune to exhaustion. Living Construct is basically the same as the elf sleep/meditation, only you are awake. You can still gain exhaustion from other things though. You are immune to disease, sure, but how often does that come up? In my experience, not very often. Same thing with not being able to eat or breath... I'd argue that Tiefling's Hellish Resistance against fire-damage is a lot more powerful, as is the Gnome's Gnome Cunning for the advantage against a lot of magic saves.

I'm not sure what you mean by "or why I get short rests". Everyone (all races) gets short rests the same way as far as I know?

The Warforged is definitely affected by Hold Person-type spells that only target humanoids. They ARE humanoid, they ARE living beings. "Even though you were constructed, you are a living creature", meaning you have a brain, a soul and you are a "person". People should stop thinking of them as robots, and more as "beings that are created in another way than being born".

I think your group is being a bit unreasonable. Sure the racial abilities depends on what the DM throws at you and how he handles certain situations, but in terms of RAW the Warforged is hardly OP.

I really like the Warforged, so I may be a bit bias, but looking at it objectively I see nothing that makes them OP compared to other races.

[Talamare]

Note, Even for Warforged and Elves. They only 'sleep' for 4 hours.
HOWEVER...
A long rest requires 8 hours, MANDATORY.
A long rest is NOT sleep/sleeping.

Even a human could have a Long Rest with ZERO SLEEP.

Your group needs to reread the rules on Long Rest
Even if you Robot/Elf "sleep" for 4 hours, you are NOT permitted to keep watch for more than 2 hours.
So, you basically have 2 hours of scratching your ass time.

[Gastronomie]

Are you Alphonse Elric or something? Or is the DM obsessed with Fullmetal Alchemist? Because unlike him, normal Warforged get exhaustion.

But honestly, if all the players are whining about how someone in the party (who isn't even using Homebrew) is overpowered, chances are it's either:
-The players are all terrible, OR
-The DM is terrible, as he has failed in giving interesting challenges where every member in the party can feel like he's being awesome

In other words, it's a terrible gaming group and you should go play with other people.

[Serket]

If your warforged rules are homebrew then nothing I say below applies.

If my character has exhaustion and yours doesn't, and you guard while I rest... that's a win for me. I might be embarrassed that I needed help, but it's still a win. And if the resting part doesn't take up much table time then you aren't stealing spotlight time, particularly.

If my character needs food and yours doesn't, then we need less food over all... and that's a win for me. I might be embarrassed that you bypassed the campaign restriction and I didn't think of it, but it's still a win. And if you aren't gloating during the hunting and eating scenes then the spotlight is on the people who care, which is to say, not you.

If the GM doesn't like the rules the GM said you can use, and the GM doesn't want you to change, then the GM is contradicting themselves on this topic.

So I'm leaning towards the view that you should consider changing games. My advice is that you check the rules to make sure you've been playing it right, and then have a conversation with the other players about how your bonuses add to the party. Also, make sure you aren't gloating about your racial powers.

[Dimcair]

Barbarian War-forged never runs gets exhausted lol.

I'd simply admit I need to correct my character-sheet because I do not actually gain immunity to exhaustion. And I am assuming you also have the weaknesses listed that come with your race?
There appears to be quite a number of downsides and vulnerabilities.

[manny2510]

I hate warforged as a DM too! That being said I think your gm's classic understanding of constructs is being imposed on your character, generally being OP AF. The key though is setting aside time to look through the warforged text together so you both have appropriate expectations of gameplay. Also be wary of the DM nerf bat. That aside In my campaign they are just intelligent constructs that are the op full-on construct, but for story reasons it is hard to be a 'good' construct, primarily because your existence relies on no one else and you are alienated by numbness even among your kindred! GL!

[newsman77]

I hate warforged as a DM too! That being said I think your gm's classic understanding of constructs is being imposed on your character, generally being OP AF. The key though is setting aside time to look through the warforged text together so you both have appropriate expectations of gameplay. Also be wary of the DM nerf bat. That aside In my campaign they are just intelligent constructs that are the op full-on construct, but for story reasons it is hard to be a 'good' construct, primarily because your existence relies on no one else and you are alienated by numbness even among your kindred! GL!

The un-official Warforged from Wizards' Unearthened Arcana has the following traits:

Ability Score Increase: Strength and Constitution +1.
Size: Medium
Speed: 30 ft.
Composite Plating: Your construction incorporates wood and metal, granting you a +1 bonus to Armor Class.
Living Construct: Even though you were constructed, you are a living creature. You are immune to disease. You do not need to eat or breathe, but you can ingest food and drink if you wish.
Instead of sleeping, you enter an inactive state for 4 hours each day. You do not dream in this state; you are fully aware of your surroundings and notice approaching enemies and other events as normal.
Languages: Common +1 other of your choice.

Doesn't seem OP if you are using these rules. A homebrew might be entirely different. Normally, I love the Warforged but they just don't appeal to me in this edition. Don't most races get a +2 and a +1 to stats? I can't remember. I get that they're trying to balance the disease immunity/+1 AC bonus.

[JackPhoenix]

Doesn't seem OP if you are using these rules. A homebrew might be entirely different. Normally, I love the Warforged but they just don't appeal to me in this edition. Don't most races get a +2 and a +1 to stats? I can't remember. I get that they're trying to balance the disease immunity/+1 AC bonus.

It's a playtest thing...all playtest (NEXT) races were +1/+1...if you look at Shifters and Changelings from the same UA, they have the same problem.

[eastmabl]

Aren't Warforged technically immune to sleep?

I tweeted Mike Mearls about this. Warforged are not immune to sleep in the playtest - he agreed with my interpretation of the warforged going into sleep mode a la an operating system.

Of course, now I can't find the darn tweet.

[Joe the Rat]

Verbal components: "Control! Alt! Delete!"

The only reason the WF would be unexhausted is if it was due to starvation/thirst (I was on kitchen duty when the break happened. I grabbed a sack and loaded up with food), or being supremely lucky on the forced march rolls (which is not the fault of the race).

In any other scenario, he's a more annoying elf. In the rough survival of the first leg or so on OotA, he gets to ignore half the problems.

You folks need to cover your tracks, double back or change directions, and have EVERYONE forage. Get some food and a good days rest.

[FightStyles]

I play a warforged sorcerer. Although it's rather unoptimized, I do not have any questions of being OP. Of course, the eating/drinking thing has never played an issue at our table. And the awareness hasn't mattered much yet. Immunity to disease I don't think will really ever come up.

I will say though that the DM keeps wanting to give me immunity to poison. After about 3 or 4 times of telling him I do not have this, I have gave up and let him give it to me as I drank a shot of snake poison (even though I don't need to drink). Even then, no one complains about it.

[McNinja]

Hey playground,

I'm in a campaign running the Out of the Abyss, and the whole party is as follows: Warforged Fighter (me), Moon Elf Bard, Human Paladin, Tiefling Warlock, and Changeling Wizard. Due to our predicament, most of the characters (read: all but me) have at least 1 level of exhaustion, some 2. This is causing some frustration with the DM and a few other players.

This is also far from the first time they've complained about my racial traits. (In fact, almost every single week it's something new.) Previously, they've argued why I should be able to stay aware while resting, or why I get short rests, or why I don't get exhausted, or whether I can sink or float in water, or if I can swim, or why I'm immune to disease, or if Warforged are affected by Hold Person-type spells that only target humanoids etc.

Warforged are Humanoids and ARE affected by Hold Person.
Warforged ARE affected by exhaustion - there is nothing claiming otherwise.
Warforged obviously get short rests, and the DM can make you take long rests the same any other player - you don't have to sleep, but you can't be doing any strenuous activity.

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/unearthed-arcana-eberron

Just read the article. You're probably playing warforged wrong.

[RickAllison]

That being said, a WF in a plague-based campaign could be super-OP. But if a DM wanted to run a game where diseases were a significant threat, why would s/he allow a race that's immune to begin with :smallwink:

[JackPhoenix]

I will say though that the DM keeps wanting to give me immunity to poison. After about 3 or 4 times of telling him I do not have this, I have gave up and let him give it to me as I drank a shot of snake poison (even though I don't need to drink). Even then, no one complains about it.

You propably don't even have to be warforged for that...snake venom needs to get into bloodstream, drinking it could be safe unless you have sores in your mouth...stomach acid would destroy it. It still wouldn't be healthy, but it won't be nearly as deadly as being bitten by a snake. There are real world drinks including snake venom.

There's a difference between venom and poison.

[JellyPooga]

That being said, a WF in a plague-based campaign could be super-OP. But if a DM wanted to run a game where diseases were a significant threat, why would s/he allow a race that's immune to begin with :smallwink:

I'm sure Grand-pappy Nurgle could come up with something to afflict the Warforged...

I the grim darkness of a plague-based campaign, there is no immunity to disease...only large bonuses against them.

[Jarmen4u]

Sorry for the late replies, guys. I crashed right after posting.

Some clarifications:
It's not that the Warforged are immune to exhaustion per se, but everyone's exhaustion is from thirst and starvation, which doesn't affect me.

The reason people are complaining about it instead of being grateful is, from what I can tell, because we're not acting like a party yet. The bard and warlock have both stolen **** off each other and the paladin when they weren't looking, and the wizard has spent the entire campaign acting like a venerable traveler we found later after his character wandered off alone and never came back.

As for the humanoid thing, in previous editions, warforged were considered to be constructs, albeit living ones, and weren't affected by spells that targeted humanoids. Is this different in 5e? With the Eberron supplement, it states that they are constructs, not humanoids.

Also there was a huge argument about whether I would sink if I fell into water, vs floating like a log and being able to swim.

[JackPhoenix]

Sorry for the late replies, guys. I crashed right after posting.

Some clarifications:
It's not that the Warforged are immune to exhaustion per se, but everyone's exhaustion is from thirst and starvation, which doesn't affect me.

The reason people are complaining about it instead of being grateful is, from what I can tell, because we're not acting like a party yet. The bard and warlock have both stolen **** off each other and the paladin when they weren't looking, and the wizard has spent the entire campaign acting like a venerable traveler we found later after his character wandered off alone and never came back.

As for the humanoid thing, in previous editions, warforged were considered to be constructs, albeit living ones, and weren't affected by spells that targeted humanoids. Is this different in 5e? With the Eberron supplement, it states that they are constructs, not humanoids.

Also there was a huge argument about whether I would sink if I fell into water, vs floating like a log and being able to swim.

That's the problem with players, not with warforged. It doesn't matter what you play when the other players are richards.
Eberron UA doesn't mentions if the warforged count as humanoids or as constructs...that would be presumably clarified when they are officialy released. While they are constructs in fluff, it have no mechanical consequences. Living Construct trait doesn't change your type...it's about as relevant as elven Fey Ancestry. Your GM can rule otherwise, with all the repercussions from the decision.
The swimming/sinking thing can be taken both ways...on the one hand, warforged are mostly made from wood, which should float, but there's a lot of metal and stone in their bodies. Don't argue, just ask your GM for a ruling. It's his world.

[Jarmen4u]

Don't argue, just ask your GM for a ruling. It's his world.

The GM welcomes discussion when there are rule discrepancies and questions because he doesn't like being the dictator who makes calls without feedback. Ideally that's good, but with our group, we have had a Skype conversation spanning over 3 days between the paladin and warlock about why Green Flame Blade is green, and can we change the colors, and are there mechanical benefits to the flame giving off green light as opposed to another color, etc. Or the time the Warlock introduced Create Bonfire and then there was a week long skype debate on what constituted "ground" as a surface to cast the cantrip on. This arose after he tried casting it on the back of a large monster in order to deal damage.

[JackPhoenix]

The GM welcomes discussion when there are rule discrepancies and questions because he doesn't like being the dictator who makes calls without feedback. Ideally that's good, but with our group, we have had a Skype conversation spanning over 3 days between the paladin and warlock about why Green Flame Blade is green, and can we change the colors, and are there mechanical benefits to the flame giving off green light as opposed to another color, etc. Or the time the Warlock introduced Create Bonfire and then there was a week long skype debate on what constituted "ground" as a surface to cast the cantrip on. This arose after he tried casting it on the back of a large monster in order to deal damage.

All right, it's your group. I was just mentioning that the issue can be ruled out both ways, and ultimately its up to the GM to decide. Some groups wants to prevent long arguments from taking valuable gaming time. If you have time to discuss the issue and decide democraticaly, good for you!

[Flashy]

As for the humanoid thing, in previous editions, warforged were considered to be constructs, albeit living ones, and weren't affected by spells that targeted humanoids. Is this different in 5e? With the Eberron supplement, it states that they are constructs, not humanoids.

Though it isn't explicit the general assumption I've seen is that they're classified as humanoids. If they weren't they'd be the only player race with another creature type, and the spell list is largely written with the assumption that players will be humanoid. I guess the question is whether you consider not being subject to Hold Person worth being excluded from Cure Wounds or Healing Word.

[Temperjoke]

I'd say that the problem isn't your Warforged, it's that your group are apparently a bunch of city-folk slowly dying in the wilderness because they lack the necessary survival skills, and are about one disagreement away from going cannibal, and your DM isn't throwing them any pity help to preserve themselves. They, DM included, are just mad because you're not suffering along with them.

[tieren]

Instead of sleeping, you enter an inactive state for 4 hours each day. You do not dream in this state; you are fully aware of your surroundings and notice approaching enemies and other events as normal.


I can imagine a mean DM letting you be aware of approaching enemies but not reacting to them because your inactive period isn't over with a strict reading of this.

Could be a whole lot worse than trance or even actual sleep (which you can be woken from).

[Talamare]

The GM welcomes discussion when there are rule discrepancies and questions because he doesn't like being the dictator who makes calls without feedback. Ideally that's good, but with our group, we have had a Skype conversation spanning over 3 days between the paladin and warlock about why Green Flame Blade is green, and can we change the colors, and are there mechanical benefits to the flame giving off green light as opposed to another color, etc. Or the time the Warlock introduced Create Bonfire and then there was a week long skype debate on what constituted "ground" as a surface to cast the cantrip on. This arose after he tried casting it on the back of a large monster in order to deal damage.

QUICK! Tell your Paladin to get FIND STEED

[Hairfish]

The GM welcomes discussion when there are rule discrepancies and questions because he doesn't like being the dictator who makes calls without feedback. Ideally that's good, but with our group, we have had a Skype conversation spanning over 3 days between the paladin and warlock about why Green Flame Blade is green, and can we change the colors, and are there mechanical benefits to the flame giving off green light as opposed to another color, etc. Or the time the Warlock introduced Create Bonfire and then there was a week long skype debate on what constituted "ground" as a surface to cast the cantrip on. This arose after he tried casting it on the back of a large monster in order to deal damage.

Good god. Unless you actually enjoy that sort of petty quibbling, find another group.

[Sigreid]

Ok, a few thoughts


I'm gob-smacked that a party of adventurers wouldn't have at least one person with a good grasp of the survival skill. I wouldn't make an adventurer without it as starvation and exposure don't sound like heroic deaths to me.
Elves are described as being aware of their surroundings during their 4 hour meditation too.
For swimming, I'd tell the DM that he's heard the pros and cons and id doesn't make any difference to me as I don't breathe or starve and I doubt there are many sea creatures that would think I looked delicious. If I can't swim, I can't help a drowning party member though. Can I swim or not?
Your party is already doomed if they are back stabbing in Out of the Abyss in the early part. The first bit in that adventure is stacked against the party.
Immunity to disease isn't in any way OP as I've yet to see disease be an issue for anyone in 5e.


Anyway, good luck!

[Joe the Rat]

So crap wisdom, crap survival skills, and/or not stopping to forage? That'll get you.

I'm assuming you didn't grab any of the NPCs during the Great Escape? A few of them would have helped the whole foraging issue.

All of this is not Warforged, this is party ragtag bunch of misfits issues.