How Much is This Ability Worth?

[Amphetryon]

If anything. . . .


Foul Shield

If your attack with a Thrown Weapon would have hit your opponent if not for her Shield Bonus to AC, your weapon lodges in your opponent's Shield, fouling it. Your opponent loses he Shield Bonus to AC until she takes a Full Round Action to clear her Shield, during which she is considered Flat-Footed.

This ability has no effect on opponents not using an actual, physical Shield.

If the language of the proposed ability is ambiguous, please say so. This seems awfully niche-oriented to be a Feat, to me, but could be a significant boon against certain enemies and specific campaign types. Thoughts?

[OldTrees1]

Not worth a feat. Instead have it be a basic combat maneuver. Worth a -2 on the attack roll and a Str check(DC 15?) to lodge the weapon if their shield(after the -2) makes you miss.

[Snowbluff]

Against a +5 tower shields that's +9 to hit, so like 81kgp.

Except for all of thos stipulations. In that very niche specific case it would only work 45% of the time at most. So like +5 on specific cases on average.

Should I avenge it? +4 is a more common bonus, but it gets exponentially less effective scaling. :l

[awa]

the reason its not worth a feat are
1 not enough monsters use shields
2 not enough humanoids use shields
3 both throwing weapons and shields are already not great
I would make it a feature of certain weapons or if you really want it to be a feat let it do other stuff as well, like maybe a free throw as part of a charge with a penalty

[Necroticplague]

Er, how exactly do you determine "would have hit if not for her shield bonus to AC". If you have more than 1 bonus to AC, it's entirely possible to say either one is responsible for saving your bacon. Like, say , you're wearing fullplate and +5 buckler. You are targeted by an attack with a result of 20 (not natural). Neither your buckler or armor enough are sufficient to save you, it's the combination that saves you. Or heck, let's go the other way. Same situation, hit by attack with result 14. Did your +6 shield modifier or +8 armor modifier save you?

Even ignoring that, this seems very underwhelming. Bonus isn't too big unless you're going against incredibly rich enemies (which aren't too common), situation is incredibly narrow.

[manyslayer]

There are feats that grant less, but they are bad feats.

Is this with any weapon? Because that's part of what pilums (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilum) were designed to do so make it a special feature of the weapon.

[Belzyk]

If fighting alot of tanky enemies I'd have a few thrown weapon with thay on it lol. But that's me. I also have played a paladin using a quarter staff and vop and nonvoilence

[daremetoidareyo]

If anything. . . .

If the language of the proposed ability is ambiguous, please say so. This seems awfully niche-oriented to be a Feat, to me, but could be a significant boon against certain enemies and specific campaign types. Thoughts?

I would just tack it onto improved sunder or improved disarm, turning them into tactical fighter bonus feats.

[Jowgen]

Its similar enough to a Harpoon that I would simply make this an exotic weapon, or if that doesn't fly, a special weapon modification that makes the weapon exotic. The cost is therefore whatever means a character has to use to gain proficiency.

[Bobby Baratheon]

If you're fouling their shield from your weapon lodging in it, don't you lose the weapon (at least logically)? Why not just roll this into sunder, and make it a feature of that feat chain?

[gorfnab]

It could work as one of three options on a tactical feat dealing with thrown weapons.

[Irk]

It could work as one of three options on a tactical feat dealing with thrown weapons.

I very very much agree with this. On its own, not worth it.

[Godskook]

If this was an archery feat, it'd have potential, but as a throwing weapon, it sucks.

Worse, its not just the power level when it works vs. when it doesn't that's an issue, its the power balance of whom said throwing-weapon fighter is screwing over with this feat. A feat designed to give a fighter-feat-based build an advantage over tower-shield wielding foes is just a "weak guys vs. weak guys" interaction. It'd be like giving wizards a feat that increased the die of damage spells based on an opponent's HD.

Making the feat more generic makes it more powerful -and- makes stronger for dealing with the real threats such a build will face: casters. Actually, isn't there a mage slayer feat that does something like this for spell-based AC bonuses?

[frogglesmash]

I'd personally make some stipulations about the size and type of the lodged weapon, after all I'm pretty sure having a shuriken or a dagger lodged in your shield wouldn't be much of a hindrance, and a thrown rock is very unlikely to end up embedded in anyone's shield. I'd also make it so you have to roll damage and deal at least one point of damage to the shield for the weapon to become embedded. Of course these limitations make the feat even less useful so it would make sense to do as others have suggested and make it a part of a Tactical feat.

[Florian]

If anything. . . .



If the language of the proposed ability is ambiguous, please say so. This seems awfully niche-oriented to be a Feat, to me, but could be a significant boon against certain enemies and specific campaign types. Thoughts?

The language is a bit problematic. It is clear what you intend, but there is a clash with the sunder maneuver and how targeting (based on size) works here. Your ability triggers more often the higher the total enhancement bonus of a shield is and specialized feats like Phalanx Fighter also shift the usefulness of the feat in favor of the user. (So the span would be 2 with a basic Large Shield, 7 with a +5 Large Shield and 9 with that +5 Large Shield on a Phalanx Fighter - That can´t be intended, right?)

Just a basic thought: In the long run, it might be better to rebuild that ability as a free crit-trigger that lets you try a free Disarm maneuver with a thrown weapon.

[OldTrees1]

Just a basic thought: In the long run, it might be better to rebuild that ability as a free crit-trigger that lets you try a free Disarm maneuver with a thrown weapon.

Free as in true for every thrown weapon or free as in after a feat? If it is after a feat then I would model it after knock-down/knockback(on hit rather than on crit). However if it is true for every thrown weapon without needing a feat then the on crit trigger is a good choice.

[Amphetryon]

The language is a bit problematic. It is clear what you intend, but there is a clash with the sunder maneuver and how targeting (based on size) works here. Your ability triggers more often the higher the total enhancement bonus of a shield is and specialized feats like Phalanx Fighter also shift the usefulness of the feat in favor of the user. (So the span would be 2 with a basic Large Shield, 7 with a +5 Large Shield and 9 with that +5 Large Shield on a Phalanx Fighter - That can´t be intended, right?)


Actually, it is intended, as it works against the common complaint that most combat Feats and abilities don't scale well as a Character advances in level. Working on the basic 3.X assumption that the majority of your foes will be approximately within a narrow range of your Character's level and are equipped appropriately, this would make this ability (note I didn't specify the ability would necessarily be a Feat, as it seems too narrowly focused) scale somewhat with level.

[Florian]

Actually, it is intended, as it works against the common complaint that most combat Feats and abilities don't scale well as a Character advances in level. Working on the basic 3.X assumption that the majority of your foes will be approximately within a narrow range of your Character's level and are equipped appropriately, this would make this ability (note I didn't specify the ability would necessarily be a Feat, as it seems too narrowly focused) scale somewhat with level.

It does not scale at all. It works by using a direct-relationship mechanic. That also incorporates a meta-knowledge mechanic about the specific composure of a targets AC that is not necessary.

If you want to have a clear language, scaling ability and don´t want to work with the meta-knowledge, it should read something like this:

"If you attack a target that has an shield bonus to AC and that attack fails by less then 2 points (or up to the total shield bonus the target has), then you can try a Disarm maneuver against the source of the shield bonus as a free action. This does not work against a shield bonus solely provided by magic, but see below.
Special: For every 4 character levels you possess, the miss can be by 1 more point (up to the total shield bonus the target has).
If you have Fighter levels, this is calculated by 1 point every 3 Fighter levels.
If you have Fighter levels and have the Improved Sunder feat, you can make a dispel check against a magical source of shield bonus based using your BAB instead of CL"

[denthor]

real world the Roman legion did this with their arrows. As we well know they handed many a head to there enemies in a fight.

Think about this against humans and demi humans it is great lowers AC by a factor and takes a however long to remove

round 1 remove shield from arm no attack

round 2 remove item stuck in shield no attack

round 3-? however many it takes to put shield back on no attack

works great on the fighters clerics no spells thrown for healing.

Alternative round 1 remove sheild

round 2 free action drop shield lower AC

Round three invisible thief takes magic shield

[Mr Adventurer]

Physical Skill Trick. Requirements: Balance 2 ranks

[awa]

real world the Roman legion did this with their arrows. As we well know they handed many a head to there enemies in a fight.

Think about this against humans and demi humans it is great lowers AC by a factor and takes a however long to remove

round 1 remove shield from arm no attack

round 2 remove item stuck in shield no attack

round 3-? however many it takes to put shield back on no attack

works great on the fighters clerics no spells thrown for healing.

Alternative round 1 remove sheild

round 2 free action drop shield lower AC

Round three invisible thief takes magic shield

arrows? the Romans used a javelin and a fairly heavy one at that not an arrow. I don't think this is a as good as you think it is. First as has been said before throwing weapons are currently subpar for a number of reasons and shield use is okay but commonly considered inferior to two-handing.

Second large numbers of foes basically never use shields every thing from monsters to casters, and ranged fighters.

Third dropping/putting on a shield is not an entire action it is part of a mov action so its
1rnd) remove shield and attack
2rnd) remove arrow no attack
3rnd) ready shield and attack

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm
so in my opinion its way to niche to be a feat by itself but like others have said could go nice with a tactical feat boosting thrown weapons who need some love any way.

edit on the other hand the thread starter does state for certain campaigns so i guess if shield fighters were extremely common like a greek or roman style game it could be a worthwhile as a feat in that specific setting, becuase it does not require any extra expenditure and it turns a failure into a partial success. It still feels weak but that's only becuase thrown weapons are weak.

[Perturbulent]

Call it a special ability of a base mundane item. Pilum do this, and I don't see any reason we can't strain credulity a little to make some pilum arrows for the archery types. I think it's a cool idea. Say it works like you said, and the whole pilum is what? 1d8 thrown weapon, maybe x3 crit mod. And it's an ordinary mundane item. I don't think you called it a feat, so this works pretty alright. Say the thrown pilum can be recovered and returned to it's previous state after 10 minutes of rebending? Maybe with the fragile quality if we're mean. Allow pilum arrows maybe, but they can't be fixed.


Oo, pathfinder has this already:
"If you hit an shield-using opponent with a pilum, he loses the AC bonus from that shield until he takes a standard action to pry out the remnants of the pilum."
they even just let it hurt the enemy's shield if it hits at all. Not great for verisimilitude, and actually decreases the chance to remove the shield for less combat oriented characters. Though that's probably not the intended user.
Standard action seems kinda lame for the effort involved though. Call it a full round? Maybe a DC 15-20 str to make it a standard. They price their pilum at 5 gp. I'd probably call it 10 gp for a bundle of 20 pilum arrows too.

Either one seems like a kinda useful item to have in a golf bag of weapons or a quiver of a Hawkeye kinda character.

[Gnorman]

Definitely not worth expending a non-renewable resource for, be it feat, skill trick, or exotic weapon.

Agree with the "standard combat maneuver or property of certain thrown weapons" crowd.

[Perturbulent]

Definitely not worth expending a non-renewable resource for, be it feat, skill trick, or exotic weapon.

Agree with the "standard combat maneuver or property of certain thrown weapons" crowd.

I wasn't attempting to suggest exotic weapon, just martial.

[Gnorman]

I wasn't attempting to suggest exotic weapon, just martial.

Did not accuse you of doing so. Jowgen did earlier in the thread.