Comp Psy - Ardent Powers

[Diarmuid]

There arent a lot of them but there are some powers Ardents have access to where the activation cost is listed as 2 separate values, generally a Psion/Wilder cost and a Psy War cost.

I checked the errata and it didnt shine any light on which one should be used. I'm guessing the Psion/Wilder costs should be used in those cases, but only becase the Ardent and Psion/Wilder share a Power Point progression.

Anyone seen anything official that supports that?

[Jormengand]

It's power level times two minus one. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#powerPoints)

[Diarmuid]

Not trying to be obtuse, but I dont see how that answers my question when the Ardent class gets access to a power that lists the power as being available to 2 separate classes at 2 different levels.

Example:

Body Purification
Level: Psion/Wilder 3, Psychic Warrior 2
blah
blah
Power Points: Psion/Wilder 5, Psychic Warrior 3

Now, the power is listed under the Life Mantle as a "Level 3 power" so one could assume that it should utilize the Psi/Wil level (also supported by the similar Daily Power Point progression), but it's not unheard of for some classes to get other class's abilities at different levels (Duskblade is the most obvious example).

As I said, I'm heavily leaning toward P/W for the few examples of this, just curious if anyone had seen anything official anywhere.

[zergling.exe]

Not trying to be obtuse, but I dont see how that answers my question when the Ardent class gets access to a power that lists the power as being available to 2 separate classes at 2 different levels.

Example:

Body Purification
Level: Psion/Wilder 3, Psychic Warrior 2
blah
blah
Power Points: Psion/Wilder 5, Psychic Warrior 3

Now, the power is listed under the Life Mantle as a "Level 3 power" so one could assume that it should utilize the Psi/Wil level (also supported by the similar Daily Power Point progression), but it's not unheard of for some classes to get other class's abilities at different levels (Duskblade is the most obvious example).

As I said, I'm heavily leaning toward P/W for the few examples of this, just curious if anyone had seen anything official anywhere.

You use the level of the power listed on the mantle that grants the power to determine power point cost.

[Jormengand]

You use the level of the power listed on the mantle that grants the power to determine power point cost.

This. Just like the save DC on a cleric's Acid Fog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidFog.htm) is 17+wis, not 16+wis, because it's water 7.

[Diarmuid]

Makes sense, thanks guys.

[Diarmuid]

Bumping to add a new question rather than starting a whole new thread on the topic.

Still ardent/power related.

How would DM's rule that the retraining rules interacts with the mantles an ardent chooses throughout his career? Say you made it to 6th level and have the following:

Primary Mantle_1
- Power_1 (selected at Lvl 1)
- Power_2 (selected at Lvl 4)

Primary Mantle_2
- Power_1 (selected at Lvl 1)
- Power_2 (selected at Lvl 3)

Secondary Mantle_1
- Power_1 (selected at Lvl 2)

Secondary Mantle_2
- Power_1 (selected at Lvl 5)

Say you had intended to be very defensive oriented and selected things to support that but maybe that strategy just hasn't been working out and you want to swap to something more offensive.

If you were to replace either of your Primary Mantles that would also mean you would need to replace 2 power choices to go along with it. That just seems like a lot more flexibility than other retraining options offer.

Thoughts?

[Flickerdart]

Say you had intended to be very defensive oriented and selected things to support that but maybe that strategy just hasn't been working out and you want to swap to something more offensive.

If you were to replace either of your Primary Mantles that would also mean you would need to replace 2 power choices to go along with it. That just seems like a lot more flexibility than other retraining options offer.

Thoughts?
RAW, you cannot retrain a mantle if you've learned any powers from it. This is due to an interaction of these two rules:



Each time your character attains a level, you can select one (and only one) of these options [spell, class feature, feat, language, skill, sub level]...

Also, the new choice can't make any of your later choices illegal...


Retraining a mantle when you have powers known from it makes those choices illegal, and you can't swap both the mantle and a power. Therefore, you cannot retrain the mantle.

If you want to retrain a mantle, you need to first retrain all the powers you have learned from it to powers from other mantles you have, then retrain the freed up mantle, and then retrain into powers from that mantle. Since the mantles represent an ardent's core ideals, this makes perfect sense - you are trying to do something more appropriate to a rebuild than retraining a simple class feature.

[Tiri]

You use the level of the power listed on the mantle that grants the power to determine power point cost.

Although you could theoretically use the Substitute Powers ACF to swap out a power and re-insert it at a lower level from a class that has it at that lower level.

[Pluto!]

Is there anything on that web enhancement that doesn't get abused? Even the Divine Mind and Lurk get exploitable wordings and broken rules FFS.

[atemu1234]

Is there anything on that web enhancement that doesn't get abused? Even the Divine Mind and Lurk get exploitable wordings and broken rules FFS.

You could say the same about the books, though. Apart from maybe WoL.

[Pluto!]

There's never the density of exploitably written/badly conceived rules that you find in that article. In a couple hundred words we get STP Erudite + Dominant Ideal/Substitute Power Ardent + Astral Cohort Divine Mind.

Admittedly the Lurk stuff isn't so expoitable beside the Death Attack DC, but basically every other entry does something extremely powerful at little to no cost. (I'd say every entry was game breaking, but even with the biggest Astral Constructs at the earliest levels, DM isn't changing the game.)

[Troacctid]

The Lurk ACFs are extremely poorly written.


True Thief doesn't give you Search and Disable Device as class skills, so you suck at trapfinding.
Psionic Skill Mastery lets you switch its selected skills at will for free by expending and regaining your psionic focus.
Opportunist requires a swift action, so you can only use it to make opportunity attacks on your own turn.
Death Attack is gained at 20th level and has the save DC of a cantrip.
Tracker doesn't give you Survival as a class skill, so you suck at tracking.
Binding Attack makes your target "tangled or bound"--neither of which is a condition with defined in-game effects.
Crippling Attack, gained at 14th level, is basically a worse version of Mental Assault, which you've had since 5th level.
Metafaculty Tag lets you manifest Metafaculty, targeting a tagged creature or object--meaning you give them free knowledge of any creature of your choice that you've seen before.

I wouldn't say it's exploitable, but it is certainly dysfunctional.

[Waazraath]

Is there anything on that web enhancement that doesn't get abused? Even the Divine Mind and Lurk get exploitable wordings and broken rules FFS.

Wilder, educated wilder acf. 9 powers known is just too little for a full casting class.

[Troacctid]

If you branch out to the other articles in the series, most of it is pretty inoffensive. The part with the CPs classes is pretty bad, though.

I guess the Elemental Mantles, Stygian Path, Favored Discipline, and Mantled Erudite are all reasonable enough.