Why is concentration Con based?

[frogglesmash]

The only reason I can think of for it to be Con based is to make it some sort of balancing factor for casters, but even in a low OP game I can't see that decision having much of an affect on overall balance. Seriously, any of the other mental stats would make more sense (I personally think Wis makes the most sense. They all represent the strength of some aspect of your psyche and by extension your strength of will. Con on the other hand represents your physical fortitude, your ability to shrug of the effects of physical injury, poison, harsh weather, and disease. How in the world does that translate in your idea to focus on the task at hand?

Another thing that irks me is that it's the only Con based skill and it has zero applications for classes that have Con based abilities.

[Deophaun]

I think it's related to the question of what the heck does fortitude have to do with resisting poison. Does your strength of mind somehow stop cyanide from bonding with iron and screwing up your electron transport chain? I don't think so.

Basically, when it comes to Constitution-based abilities, I just assume WotC assigned a monkey to handle it.

[Necroticplague]

The only reason I can think of for it to be Con based is to make it some sort of balancing factor for casters, but even in a low OP game I can't see that decision having much of an affect on overall balance. Seriously, any of the other mental stats would make more sense (I personally think Wis makes the most sense. They all represent the strength of some aspect of your psyche and by extension your strength of will. Con on the other hand represents your physical fortitude, your ability to shrug of the effects of physical injury, poison, harsh weather, and disease. How in the world does that translate in your idea to focus on the task at hand?

Another thing that irks me is that it's the only Con based skill and it has zero applications for classes that have Con based abilities.

Because CON is the ability to shrug off physical conditions. Concentration is also a form of shrugging off physical conditions, you power through it to cast anyway.

That said, I do agree, it's diapointing that no CON based class benefits from it. That's why I've tried backporting the Vigor skill from Legend. Basically, use move action to give yourself Temp HP. Higher levels eventually upgrade it to giving fast healing, delaying status effects, and removing conditions (in addition to more temp HP, obviously).


I think it's related to the question of what the heck does fortitude have to do with resisting poison. Does your strength of mind somehow stop cyanide from bonding with iron and screwing up your electron transport chain? I don't think so.

Basically, when it comes to Constitution-based abilities, I just assume WotC assigned a monkey to handle it.

Er, CON isn't strength of mind. That's an aspect of WIS. CON is the resilience of body. So high con=more resilient body=greater ability to resist poisons.

[frogglesmash]

I think it's related to the question of what the heck does fortitude have to do with resisting poison. Does your strength of mind somehow stop cyanide from bonding with iron and screwing up your electron transport chain? I don't think so.

Basically, when it comes to Constitution-based abilities, I just assume WotC assigned a monkey to handle it.

Building up a tolerance to certain chemicals is possible, and physiology also plays a role in how large of a dose is required to affect an individual. That is then translated into game mechanics, it's not realistic, but then neither is surviving getting stabbed 15-20 times, but at least there's some correlation between that can be drawn between Con and your ability to resist poisons. I can think of no such correlation for Con and your ability to focus real hard.


Because CON is the ability to shrug off physical conditions. Concentration is also a form of shrugging off physical conditions, you power through it to cast anyway.

No, con let's you actually ignore or lessen the effects of physical conditions. Fort saves let you resist or outright nullify the negative impact of various spells, poison, diseases etc. Concentration doesn't do this, it just let's you stay focused while these effects occur. Also, many of these effects that Concentration let's you ignore aren't direct assaults on your physiology i.e. strong winds, violent movement, being restrained, etc.

[Snowbluff]

Also, many of these effects that Concentration let's you ignore aren't direct assaults on your physiology i.e. strong winds, violent movement, being restrained, etc.

These somehow aren't?

[Deophaun]

Er, CON isn't strength of mind.

But FORTITUDE is.

[Togath]

But FORTITUDE is.

Um, what?
Fortitude is a con based save.
You're thinking of Will.

[Deophaun]

Um, what?
Fortitude is a con based save.
You're thinking of Will.
I'm thinking English.

[Godskook]

Breaking someone's concentration requires hardware access to the caster in question. It is -not- merely one's ability to analyze complex systems(Int), discern relevance or assert pure will(Wis) or one's sheer force of personality(Cha).

[Xuldarinar]

Um, what?
Fortitude is a con based save.
You're thinking of Will.



Well... Mechanically it is, but linguistically it isn't.

Fortitude, the actual word, means: "mental strength and courage that allows someone to face danger, pain, etc."

[frogglesmash]

These somehow aren't?

Physiology is the functions of various parts of your anatomy i.e. the brain, liver, cells, digestive system, etc. a purely physical assault doesn't like those I sited don't affect any of these functions to a significant degree.



Breaking someone's concentration requires hardware access to the caster in question. It is -not- merely one's ability to analyze complex systems(Int), discern relevance or assert pure will(Wis) or one's sheer force of personality(Cha).

I would argue that the act of concentrating is the assertion of pure will and WotC thinks it's just fine for undead to use their force of personality to remain focused.

[Xuldarinar]

I would argue that the act of concentrating is the assertion of pure will and WotC thinks it's just fine for undead to use their force of personality to remain focused.


Then take a page out of Pathfinder; Concentration isn't a skill and a concentration check utilizes CL + Ability score modifier used to determine bonus spells.

[frogglesmash]

Then take a page out of Pathfinder; Concentration isn't a skill and a concentration check utilizes CL + Ability score modifier used to determine bonus spells.

This makes a lot more sense than having a pointless skill skill with a bizarre key ability score that is usable by only a portion of all characters.

[Jack_Simth]

This makes a lot more sense than having a pointless skill skill with a bizarre key ability score that is usable by only a portion of all characters.

Concentration is actually usable by non-casters; it lets you use skills that would otherwise provoke attacks of opportunity. Use Rope seems to be the only one that specifically mentions usages of the skill provoking attacks (although there are a couple of skills that specifically don't), however, the Standard Actions table and the Full-Round Actions table both list "Use Skill" as "Usually" for provoking AoO's.

Mind you, it comes up a LOT less often for the mundanes than it does for the casters, but it is a valid use of the skill.

[Âmesang]

I imagine Concentration also comes into play with skills such as Open Lock and Disable Device since you're devoting your time to something other than combat, and generally that distraction keeps you from properly defending yourself.

I'll admit I'm too lazy to look, but is it safe to assume Balance and Climb count, as well? Figured there's got to be a reason that monks have Concentration as a class-skill. :smalltongue:

[Godskook]

I would argue that the act of concentrating is the assertion of pure will and WotC thinks it's just fine for undead to use their force of personality to remain focused.

1.Name one thing in 3.5 that can break concentration without -also- having a notable impact on someone's hardware(read: riding a horse, weathering a storm, etc). Afaik, there's one possible exception, and that's spells designed to interrupt spells.

2.Undead do not abide by anatomy or anything else that's analogous to reality. Bringing them up hear is the equivalent of mentioning Will'o'wisps in a discussion about how Raptorans fly.

[Kurald Galain]

Concentration is a con skill because otherwise there wouldn't be any con skills. Indeed it makes most sense to move it to wis instead.

[Âmesang]

Oh, I'm quite thankful Concentration is Constitution based and not Wisdom… at least for my robust yet foolish sorceress character. :smalltongue:

As a small note, I'm typing this at just before 3:30 AM (EST) …and I find myself very tired, and having a very difficult time concentrating on anything; so I can kind of see why it's Con-based instead of anything else. If you're not healthy, physically fit, well-rested, or some similar thing… um… just lost my train of thought. :smallfrown:

[nedz]

The only reason I can think of for it to be Con based is to make it some sort of balancing factor for casters,

I'm not so sure about this because most casters are SAD and Con is a good secondary/tertiary stat anyway - for obvious reasons.

The one I don't understand is why Concentration is a class skill for Monks ?
Now I can see the fluff rationale, but how many Monks actually put skill points here ?

[GrayDeath]

Those that are ... Kensai?

^^

[PersonMan]

I think it's related to the question of what the heck does fortitude have to do with resisting poison. Does your strength of mind somehow stop cyanide from bonding with iron and screwing up your electron transport chain? I don't think so.

Not with that attitude it isn't!

[nedz]

I think it's related to the question of what the heck does fortitude have to do with resisting poison. Does your strength of mind somehow stop cyanide from bonding with iron and screwing up your electron transport chain? I don't think so.

Mind over matter ?

[Keltest]

Mind over matter ?

Pretty sure that only works for monks. And, I guess, casters with cure poison abilities.

[ericgrau]

Because if you're healthier you can put up with physical distractions better? Weather, being restrained and damage maybe, but avoiding the distraction of a weapon is pushing it. I do think it would make more sense if it was wis based. But that would also make clerics and druids way better at casting in melee than wizards. Pretty much success even when you roll a 1 (skills don't have natural 1 auto-failure btw), even in severe situations like grappling. And that would... also kinda make sense. Might save them a feat I guess.

If you wanted to house rule concentration into wisdom it wouldn't be a bad idea. Be aware that it is a small power boost to divine casters. At most 1 feat, though on average probably less than half a feat.

I did always wonder why monks had concentration. I get the fluff. But they never ever use it. Not only do they not have spells, they don't have any of the skills that rarely need it like disable device. I suppose it's to role-play not get distracted while meditating at the monastery? Even then monks have matching wis fluff. Out foul demon, I predicted your attempt to bring up UMDing partially charged wands and you just triggered my quote bomb!

[Aleolus]

The one I don't understand is why Concentration is a class skill for Monks ?
Now I can see the fluff rationale, but how many Monks actually put skill points here ?

That has always bugged me as well, which is why I created a Monk variant based off of Tar Gibbons from the Aliens Ate my Homework series which actually did utilize Concentration

[Strigon]

Because Con is - among other things - your ability to withstand physical abuse.
If you imagine someone who is in incredible shape, never gets sick, and can't ever seem to get seriously injured despite being subjected to great stress, it makes more sense for them to be able to ignore physical distractions than, say, an aged professor used to a comfortable life.

Sure, there are examples of people able to clear their mind and focus regardless of what's happening, but that's only as a result of training and practice - in D&D terms, they put skill points into it. They don't naturally have the ability to concentrate in harsh conditions by virtue of being wise.

[The Viscount]

I had always considered Concentration to be Con based for more gamist terms. Con is a stat that casters will somewhat invest in, certainly, but they won't pump it as high as their casting stat as early, meaning there remains the chance they could botch their check. I also think they decided against the mental stats because if they did, any caster that used that ability would have a leg up against the others.

[dextercorvia]

I always thought it was because Constitution and Concentration share so many of the same letters.

[Jack_Simth]

I imagine Concentration also comes into play with skills such as Open Lock and Disable Device since you're devoting your time to something other than combat, and generally that distraction keeps you from properly defending yourself.

I'll admit I'm too lazy to look, but is it safe to assume Balance and Climb count, as well? Well, the tables call it out as "usually", there's only one of the core skills that explicitly states using it provokes AoOs, and there's a handful of skills that explicitly say they do not provoke AoOs for some uses. Around 80% are unspecified, which leaves us with the table that says "usually". Open Lock, Disable Device, Balance, and Climb are on the "does not explicitly state" list. If we treat "usually" on the table as "defaults to Yes unless otherwise stated", then yes, they are. It's not explicit, however, so it's up to the individual DM.

[Kurald Galain]

I always thought it was because Constitution and Concentration share so many of the same letters.

Indeed. This is why Intimidate is an intelligence skill, and Streetwise keys off strength.

[ericgrau]

Indeed. This is why Intimidate is an intelligence skill, and Streetwise keys off strength.
Come on, those don't have as many letters in common.

[dextercorvia]

Indeed. This is why Intimidate is an intelligence skill, and Streetwise keys off strength.

Clearly Wisdom is a primary stat for you, since your Wisecracking skill has such a bonus.

[Rijan_Sai]

Oh, I'm quite thankful Concentration is Constitution based and not Wisdom… at least for my robust yet foolish sorceress character. :smalltongue:
My Warblade is also quite happy for it!

And yeah, I agree the reason for it being a CON skill is because of it being used to resist physical distractions, similar to Fort saves being against (generally) physical effects.

[Venger]

I had always considered Concentration to be Con based for more gamist terms. Con is a stat that casters will somewhat invest in, certainly, but they won't pump it as high as their casting stat as early, meaning there remains the chance they could botch their check. I also think they decided against the mental stats because if they did, any caster that used that ability would have a leg up against the others.

Yeah, I'd be inclined to go with this as an explanation. Without it, just nab fey mysteries initiate (or similar) and you're 100% SAD.

unless we're talking about 3.0 egotists. they just pumped con and laughed.

[Ruethgar]

Concentration is also supposed to be used for various physical skills but that rarely sees play in my experience. As stated before, it is the ability to shrug off physical distraction to maintain focus on the task at hand and thus straddles the line between Wisdom, which deals strongly with perception, such as what you are focusing on, and Constitution, which deals with your ability to handle physical stimuli more effectively. There is a trait (in PF I believe) that lets you convert it to Wis in fact, that I always allow in my games.

[paranoidbox]

Concentration is also supposed to be used for various physical skills but that rarely sees play in my experience. As stated before, it is the ability to shrug off physical distraction to maintain focus on the task at hand and thus straddles the line between Wisdom, which deals strongly with perception, such as what you are focusing on, and Constitution, which deals with your ability to handle physical stimuli more effectively. There is a trait (in PF I believe) that lets you convert it to Wis in fact, that I always allow in my games.

Yeah, using Concentration to not botch skill checks while being distracted is a thing, but I don't think we've ever used that rule in our games either. I mean, if you read the text under Concentration, it's basically an afterthought anyway. "You must roll Concentration when you're in adverse situations and you want to you cast a spell, direct a spell, maintain a spell, or use a spell-like ability... oh yes, and also when you use skills."

Didn't 3.0 use Concentration to counter disarms, trips, etc...? Which PF turned into combat maneuver defense, I guess, and 3.5 completely did away with for whatever reason. I actually kind of liked that Concentration did that kind of thing, it made it worthwhile for martials to actually invest in the skill. (This is possibly why the monk still has Concentration as a class skill? They just forgot about changing it.)

I can see a good case being made for Wis being the governing ability for this skill, but then Con has no skills under it any more. And it's already the loneliest ability :(

[tsj]

I think it can be argued why concentration is con based but it makes no sense that spot and listen are wis based...

They should have been con based

I could also see the argument for having concentration being wis based (since will save is wis based)

[Kurald Galain]

I think it can be argued why concentration is con based but it makes no sense that spot and listen are wis based...

And again, the reason perception skills (spot/listen/sense motive) were folded into wisdom is because otherwise, wisdom would be almost completely useless on anyone who's not a divine caster. That's precisely the problem with wisdom in 2E (which had a common houserule for perception to be the 7th ability score since it didn't belong anywhere else).

One of the goals for 3E was to make every ability score at least somewhat important to every class. They didn't entirely succeed, but it goes a long way.

That said, it makes even less to put perception skills under constitution, although intelligence might fit (indeed, 5E has two interchangeable perception skills, one under int and one under wis).

[Jack_Simth]

And it's already the loneliest ability :(It's not lonely! Almost every adventurer wants to be Constitution’s friend! It's considered very important!

[Strigon]

I think it can be argued why concentration is con based but it makes no sense that spot and listen are wis based...

They should have been con based

I could also see the argument for having concentration being wis based (since will save is wis based)

I fail to see how they should be con based; someone can easily be a very perceptive pushover.
Maybe they don't fit perfectly with Wisdom, but it works better than any other options.

[paranoidbox]

It's not lonely! Almost every adventurer wants to be Constitution’s friend! It's considered very important!

Well, this is true. I would just have liked more Con-based skills. Like... withstanding... uh... holding on to... hmmm... having the resilience to... err...

I can see why there are no skills based on Con.

[tsj]

I fail to see how they should be con based; someone can easily be a very perceptive pushover.
Maybe they don't fit perfectly with Wisdom, but it works better than any other options.

Well con measures physical health...
Your vision and hearing are physical senses that depends upon physical health...
When you age/grows old you decrease in str, dex and con while you increase in wis, int and cha...

IRL your vision and hearing becomes worse with age because your health becomes worse...

That is why I believe that spot and listen should be con based... to reflex the real world

You could still have ie. Con 8 (-1) but have many ranks in spot and have eagle eyes even if you are a push over

But even with con 18 you are a push over with a d4 hd

[Kurald Galain]

Well, this is true. I would just have liked more Con-based skills. Like... withstanding... uh... holding on to... hmmm... having the resilience to... err...

I can see why there are no skills based on Con.

An Endurance skill would be appropriate to lengthy exhausting tasks like marathon running, staying awake all night without getting fatigued, and holding your breath underwater.

Resist Alcohol is a traditional skill for dwarves, in certain systems; it also works against other ingested poisons.

[The Viscount]

Listen and spot are based off of Wisdom because it is supposed to be a representation of how aware you are of the environment around you, which is why all creatures need at least Wis 1.

[Strigon]

Well con measures physical health...
Your vision and hearing are physical senses that depends upon physical health...
When you age/grows old you decrease in str, dex and con while you increase in wis, int and cha...

IRL your vision and hearing becomes worse with age because your health becomes worse...

That is why I believe that spot and listen should be con based... to reflex the real world

You could still have ie. Con 8 (-1) but have many ranks in spot and have eagle eyes even if you are a push over

But even with con 18 you are a push over with a d4 hd

But your eyesight and hearing aren't a factor of your overall health, and skill points reflect skill and experience; having lots of skill points in Spot doesn't mean you've got perfect vision, it means you're very observant.
And having 18 con and D4 HD isn't a pushover, even at level one. Having 8 HP means you could be stabbed in the throat with a dagger and still survive without medical attention. You can also pretty reliably avoid getting sick and being poisoned - once again, not a pushover. You could easily have a tremendously tough individual who can't see 10 feet in front of him, and you can also have someone dying of illness who can still see perfectly. Con reflects your overall health, which is pretty much irrelevant to eyesight and hearing.

Also, just because your eyesight and hearing degrade with age, doesn't mean they should be con based. Your memory also gets worse - should we have Knowledge skills be con based?

[dextercorvia]

I am a fan of having dual attribute skills, although that complicates the system. Still, with things like Intimidate and apparently Concentration it would make more sense. Jump and Tumble (or the combined Athletics skill) would be dependent on Strength and Dexterity, etc.

[Sliver]

Well, this is true. I would just have liked more Con-based skills. Like... withstanding... uh... holding on to... hmmm... having the resilience to... err...

I can see why there are no skills based on Con.

Your Bladder Strength requires Con. Say you are fighting a creature with scent and suddenly fail at keeping your bladder in check, making you so much easier to pinpoint!

However, with high enough bladder strength, you can also evacuate the trenches at ease, putting out fires and disgusting your environment. How can you be affected by a gaze attack if the medusa doesn't want to look at you?

[paranoidbox]

Your Bladder Strength requires Con. Say you are fighting a creature with scent and suddenly fail at keeping your bladder in check, making you so much easier to pinpoint!

However, with high enough bladder strength, you can also evacuate the trenches at ease, putting out fires and disgusting your environment. How can you be affected by a gaze attack if the medusa doesn't want to look at you?

I did not think of that! But now that you mention it, I think this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGZz-d8hqLs) is an epic use of the Bladder Strength skill.

[frogglesmash]

Well con measures physical health...
Your vision and hearing are physical senses that depends upon physical health...
When you age/grows old you decrease in str, dex and con while you increase in wis, int and cha...

IRL your vision and hearing becomes worse with age because your health becomes worse...

That is why I believe that spot and listen should be con based... to reflex the real world

You could still have ie. Con 8 (-1) but have many ranks in spot and have eagle eyes even if you are a push over

But even with con 18 you are a push over with a d4 hd
By that logic most actions in d&d should be con based. Jump, tumble, swim, and balance would be con based because they're all physical actions you take with your physical limbs, same goes for attacks and armor class. Even spell casting uses physical movements and physical speaking. All mental skills use your physical thoughts/brain etc.


An Endurance skill would be appropriate to lengthy exhausting tasks like marathon running, staying awake all night without getting fatigued, and holding your breath underwater.

Resist Alcohol is a traditional skill for dwarves, in certain systems; it also works against other ingested poisons.

Most of those things use con checks so having an endurance skill for them would make sense, though I believe that alcohol and poisons should be kept as something that is handled by Fort saves.

[Jack_Simth]

By that logic most actions in d&d should be con based. Jump, tumble, swim, and balance would be con based because they're all physical actions you take with your physical limbs, same goes for attacks and armor class. Even spell casting uses physical movements and physical speaking. All mental skills use your physical thoughts/brain etc....

Is it odd that this makes me curious just how many things we can add Con to in standard D&D? AC, saves, various skills, spellcasting, attack rolls, damage rolls.... I know that Steadfast Determination makes Will saves Con-based....

[tsj]

By that logic most actions in d&d should be con based. Jump, tumble, swim, and balance would be con based because they're all physical actions you take with your physical limbs, same goes for attacks and armor class. Even spell casting uses physical movements and physical speaking. All mental skills use your physical thoughts/brain etc.



Most of those things use con checks so having an endurance skill for them would make sense, though I believe that alcohol and poisons should be kept as something that is handled by Fort saves.

well wisdom, intelligence and charisma are all mental or non-physical stats while
strength, dexterity and constitution are all physical stats, measuring
how physically strong you are, how physically "nimble" you are and how physically healthy you are...

jump, tumble, swim, balance, attacks, armor class and spell casting all rely more or less on one of the 3 main physical stats...
some spells do require a ranged touch attack thus require the use of your dex


since wisdom is a mental stat that measures how knowledgeable you are and influences your will then I see no correlation with that somehow measuring a physical attribute such as how good is your eye sight or how good are you at hearing stuff ?

that should be a physical stat, since con measures health and health will influence your eyes and ears, then it makes most sense that con is used for spot and listen


unless we are talking about mind over matter ie that you increase your hearing and your sight in a mystic way by using sheer force of will or something...but that would just be silly

[zergling.exe]

well wisdom, intelligence and charisma are all mental or non-physical stats while
strength, dexterity and constitution are all physical stats, measuring
how physically strong you are, how physically "nimble" you are and how physically healthy you are...

jump, tumble, swim, balance, attacks, armor class and spell casting all rely more or less on one of the 3 main physical stats...
some spells do require a ranged touch attack thus require the use of your dex


since wisdom is a mental stat that measures how knowledgeable you are and influences your will then I see no correlation with that somehow measuring a physical attribute such as how good is your eye sight or how good are you at hearing stuff ?

that should be a physical stat, since con measures health and health will influence your eyes and ears, then it makes most sense that con is used for spot and listen


unless we are talking about mind over matter ie that you increase your hearing and your sight in a mystic way by using sheer force of will or something...but that would just be silly

How about the big dumb clod? He doesn't notice anything, even when it's right in front of him! But he is super healthy, eats a perfect diet, and exercises like a champ. He's got a 20 Con!

But he still can't see that flashing red light or hear that blaring horn. But it's alright... he'll just walk it off.

[frogglesmash]

well wisdom, intelligence and charisma are all mental or non-physical stats while
strength, dexterity and constitution are all physical stats, measuring
how physically strong you are, how physically "nimble" you are and how physically healthy you are...

jump, tumble, swim, balance, attacks, armor class and spell casting all rely more or less on one of the 3 main physical stats...
some spells do require a ranged touch attack thus require the use of your dex


since wisdom is a mental stat that measures how knowledgeable you are and influences your will then I see no correlation with that somehow measuring a physical attribute such as how good is your eye sight or how good are you at hearing stuff ?

that should be a physical stat, since con measures health and health will influence your eyes and ears, then it makes most sense that con is used for spot and listen


unless we are talking about mind over matter ie that you increase your hearing and your sight in a mystic way by using sheer force of will or something...but that would just be silly

Since con measures health, and health will influence my limbs and brain my point still stands. Wisdom represents strength of mind, powers of discernment, and your intuition. In other words it's not so much about your ability to see things, but your ability to take note of what you are seeing.

[Khedrac]

Fortitude, the actual word, means: "mental strength and courage that allows someone to face danger, pain, etc."
hmm.


1. Physical or structural strength. (Obsolete)
2. Moral strength or courage. Now only in the passive sense: Unyielding courage in the endurance of pain or adversity. (One of the cardinal virtues.)
3. Astrology A position or circumstance which heightens the influence of a planet; a dignity.
Lots of words in D&D are pretty obsolete by moderns standards, so the use of "fortitude" for the physical saves isn't that much of a stretch.

As for Concentration and physical types - it isn't just Kensai, it's anyone who uses Diamond Mind manoeuvers.

[Deophaun]

Lots of words in D&D are pretty obsolete by moderns standards, so the use of "fortitude" for the physical saves isn't that much of a stretch.
That gives the wrong impression. Fortitude always meant mental strength. There was a brief time--very brief--when a certain someone tried to use it for physical strength. Despite Mr. Shakespeare having nearly invented the language, even he could not get fortitude accepted as a synonym for physical strength. That was the point where people said "We've had enough of you, you spoony bard!"

Which, by the way, would also mean a Fortitude save should have been Strength based, not Con.

[tsj]

Since con measures health, and health will influence my limbs and brain my point still stands. Wisdom represents strength of mind, powers of discernment, and your intuition. In other words it's not so much about your ability to see things, but your ability to take note of what you are seeing.

Hm.. I see the point in using wisdom to judge what you are hearing and seeing but I guess it boils down to this...

Is a successful listen check a result of you correctly identifying a sound or

Is it a result of you being able to hear the sound?

In the first case .. experience (and age) will help identify sounds while

In the other case... age should make your ability to hear a sound decrease not increase

[Ashtagon]

Well con measures physical health...
Your vision and hearing are physical senses that depends upon physical health...
When you age/grows old you decrease in str, dex and con while you increase in wis, int and cha...

IRL your vision and hearing becomes worse with age because your health becomes worse...

That is why I believe that spot and listen should be con based... to reflex the real world

You could still have ie. Con 8 (-1) but have many ranks in spot and have eagle eyes even if you are a push over

But even with con 18 you are a push over with a d4 hd

By that logic, all mental stats should be folded into Con, since they are all based on physical properties.

Spot/Listen are Wis-based because seeing and hearing things isn't just about the physical organ that does the detecting, but also having the experience to do pattern recognition, recognise specific creatures from small 'tells', and knowing when and where to expect things to appear.

[Bohandas]

Well... Mechanically it is, but linguistically it isn't.

Fortitude, the actual word, means: "mental strength and courage that allows someone to face danger, pain, etc."
According to wiktionary it can also mean "physical strength"

[Willie the Duck]

That gives the wrong impression. Fortitude always meant mental strength. There was a brief time--very brief--when a certain someone tried to use it for physical strength. Despite Mr. Shakespeare having nearly invented the language, even he could not get fortitude accepted as a synonym for physical strength. That was the point where people said "We've had enough of you, you spoony bard!"

Which, by the way, would also mean a Fortitude save should have been Strength based, not Con.


And bucklers are in reality small shields that aren't strapped to your forearm to leave your off hand free. And longsword doesn't mean longsword, and there's no such thing as platemail. If we want to obsess over this, we'll have to acknowledge that half of the game is misnomer-ish. Constitution is already a odd term for what it represents. If I were to design it, I would have made the constitution-modified save called a "mettle" save (and probably rename the mettle class feature "fortitude," but I suspect that people would complain about any decision they made. Of course, wisdom clearly doesn't mean wisdom either(it pretty much means "all mental faculties other than intelligence").

Concentration is clearly con based for gamist concerns. It doesn't favor any specific spellcasting class, and everyone is going to consider Con to be a mid-level priority. I agree with whomever said it had no business being a skill in the first place (options that are not optional are just the illusion of choice).

[ExLibrisMortis]

Autohypnosis is 'concentration for wisdom-based folks'. It makes about as little sense as concentration, with checks to tolerate poison, resist dying, and gain temporary hit points (epic usage), of which the difficulty does not depend on how healthy your body is to begin with.

Psionic focus requires you to make a DC 20 concentration check, but Psionic Meditation (focus as move action) and Narrow Mind (+4 on checks to focus) require Wisdom. Concentration also provides a +2 synergy boost to autohypnosis (but not the reverse).

You might call concentration 'body over mind', where your inherent toughness (and skill) allows you to ignore mental distractions, and autohypnosis 'mind over body', where your mental fortitude (and skill) allows you to ignore physical distractions. Essentially, mens sana in corpore sano.


Although I keep open the possibility that, in some early incarnation of D&D, the players got confused between CON, the ability, and CON, the skill, and just decided to associate the two.

[Deophaun]

According to wiktionary...
Well there's your problem.

And bucklers are in reality small shields that aren't strapped to your forearm to leave your off hand free. And longsword doesn't mean longsword, and there's no such thing as platemail. If we want to obsess over this, we'll have to acknowledge that half of the game is misnomer-ish.
By jove, I think you figured out the point of the second post in this thread!

[Keltest]

Hm.. I see the point in using wisdom to judge what you are hearing and seeing but I guess it boils down to this...

Is a successful listen check a result of you correctly identifying a sound or

Is it a result of you being able to hear the sound?

In the first case .. experience (and age) will help identify sounds while

In the other case... age should make your ability to hear a sound decrease not increase

Spot and listen checks are decidedly the result of correctly analyzing a sound or sight and reaching a conclusion from it, not just the act of seeing or hearing something.


For example, a listen check could be used to tell you there is not wildlife in the immediate area because they aren't making sounds, even though by definition you aren't hearing anything.

[Willie the Duck]

Well there's your problem.

By jove, I think you figured out the point of the second post in this thread!

Well yes, I think we all have. Subtlety is not your forte.

[Bohandas]

It's a matter of the skill being poorly named. The "concentration" skill does npt govern concentration, only the specific ability to maintina concentration on spellcasting while being pummeled.

[Jack_Simth]

It's a matter of the skill being poorly named. The "concentration" skill does npt govern concentration, only the specific ability to maintina concentration on spellcasting while being pummeled.
Also to multitask - avoid dropping your guard when doing something else that requires attention.