Ability changes due to size change

[Shnigda]

Hi guys, my DM is unsure about what ability changes there are when a character grows or reduces in size. He seems to think that strength increases by 2 for each size above medium you are, whereas I'm fairly certain that it's STR:+8 DEX:-2 CON:+4.
Could someone please clear this up for me? A link or book reference would be very helpful!

EDIT: This size change is a homebrew trait that increases the size of a creature to make them one size larger than usual (Medium > Large, etc...) and is something that is inherent to the creature from birth, rather than a simple Enlarge Person spell.

[Eloel]

Here you go. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases)

[Shnigda]

Here you go. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases)

Thanks! Does that apply for PCs as well as monsters? That's the thing my DM is confused about...

[frogglesmash]

Thanks! Does that apply for PCs as well as monsters? That's the thing my DM is confused about...

Very few rules actually make a distinction between players and monsters, this one is no exception.

[torrasque666]

However, most ways to change a creature's size are through spell effects, which tend to have specific rules on how the size change modifies their stats.

[Necroticplague]

That table is only for advancing size categories by adding HD, as it says in the line right above it. There are some exceptions to this rule (half-minoataur and half-goristro come to mind), but they always call themselves out (in line with the specific beats general philosophy of the game).

[Troacctid]

The ability modifiers for size changes are part of the rules for advancing monsters by HD, and only apply in that context. Since PCs don't advance by HD, it doesn't apply to them, nor does it apply to creatures that gain HD by means other than the advancement rules (such as a druid's animal companion).

[Shnigda]

The ability modifiers for size changes are part of the rules for advancing monsters by HD, and only apply in that context. Since PCs don't advance by HD, it doesn't apply to them, nor does it apply to creatures that gain HD by means other than the advancement rules (such as a druid's animal companion).

Do you have a link or anything that provides that actual changes for a PC that is larger than usual, or are there none?

[Necroticplague]

Do you have a link or anything that provides that actual changes for a PC that is larger than usual, or are there none?

You mean, like the size modifiers to attack, grapple, hide, and reach? Here's a link for that (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm), near the bottom of the page, "big and little creatures in combat".

[Shnigda]

You mean, like the size modifiers to attack, grapple, hide, and reach? Here's a link for that (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm), near the bottom of the page, "big and little creatures in combat".

I mean more like the str, dex and con changes that the monsters get (as i have just learned)

[Necroticplague]

I mean more like the str, dex and con changes that the monsters get (as i have just learned)
???
Those were already linked to earlier by Eloel. Being Large doesn't intrinnsically effects you stats. Your race already includes any modifiers it might have. So Large races already have any benefit of being Large baked into them. It's entirely possible for a spell to change your size without effecting any of your other stats. By default, templates (which the homebrew appears to be) don't apply to this, unless they say otherwise. That's why the ones that specifically bring that table up (half-goristro, half-minotaur) specifically say they do.

EDIT: Actually, re-reading the rules for templates, templates, by default, do actually use that table.

If a template changes a creature’s size, use Table: Changes to Statistics by Size to calculate changes to natural armor, Armor Class, attack rolls, and grapple bonus.

[Shnigda]

???
Those were already linked to earlier by Eloel. Being Large doesn't intrinnsically effects you stats. Your race already includes any modifiers it might have. So Large races already have any benefit of being Large baked into them. It's entirely possible for a spell to change your size without effecting any of your other stats. By default, templates (which the homebrew appears to be) don't apply to this, unless they say otherwise. That's why the ones that specifically bring that table up (half-goristro, half-minotaur) specifically say they do.

EDIT: Actually, re-reading the rules for templates, templates, by default, do actually use that table.

Here's the trait. (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Big_(3.5e_Trait)) The wording of the trait makes it sound like there should be some sort of bonus... Probably why I'm confused. (Especially the last bit of the the Roleplaying Ideas section, implying that the are bonuses improving your combat skills)

[ericgrau]

Size changing templates that boost ability scores seem to support the notion that any racial size change boosts your ability scores. A feat may or may not, depending on how it's worded. If it makes you naturally larger then it should probably be str +8 dex-2, and con +4 to go from medium to large.

Anyway if it's a homebrew trait made by your DM, then it works the way your DM says it does. The default ability score increase is way too much for a trait anyway. The fluff could be that the creature is far taller than normal for the race, but otherwise his build isn't that much greater. Or whatever your DM says it is. That's the thing with homebrew.

[Shnigda]

Anyway if it's a homebrew trait made by your DM, then it works the way your DM says it does. The default ability score increase is way too much for a trait anyway. The fluff could be that the creature is far taller than normal for the race, but otherwise his build isn't that much greater. Or whatever your DM says it is. That's the thing with homebrew.

Fair enough.

If, however, the size change was gained from the application of a template (such as half-minotaur), then the monster ability changes would be applicable. Is that right? (Assuming the trait is ignored)

[Necroticplague]

Here's the trait. (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Big_(3.5e_Trait)) The wording of the trait makes it sound like there should be some sort of bonus... Probably why I'm confused. (Especially the last bit of the the Roleplaying Ideas section, implying that the are bonuses improving your combat skills)

There are benefits, even without those stat bonuses

Positive: Reach, bonus to combat maneuver checks, can wield more damaging weapons (and has more damaging natural weapons).
Downsides: Penalty to hide, harder to squeeze into small spaces, penalty to attack rolls, armor and weapons are more expensive.

[Shnigda]

There are benefits, even without those stat bonuses

Positive: Reach, bonus to combat maneuver checks, can wield more damaging weapons (and has more damaging natural weapons).
Downsides: Penalty to hide, harder to squeeze into small spaces, penalty to attack rolls, armor and weapons are more expensive.

Reach? I didn't see that... I thought they had the same reach as medium (5ft), only increasing to 10ft if they are Huge sized.

[ericgrau]

Fair enough.

If, however, the size change was gained from the application of a template (such as half-minotaur), then the monster ability changes would be applicable. Is that right? (Assuming the trait is ignored)

Yeah. The book half-minotaur is in even says so explicitly. It's also one of the strongest templates ever made, and probably way too strong for most gaming groups. But strictly by the book most definitely the monster ability changes apply to the half-minotaur size increase.

[Necroticplague]

Yeah. The book half-minotaur is in even says so explicitly. It's also one of the strongest templates ever made, and probably way too strong for most gaming groups. But strictly by the book most definitely the monster ability changes apply to the half-minotaur size increase.

As I pointed earlier, even without Half-minotaur saying so, the rules for templates when it comes to size itself say you would gain those benefits.

Templates often change a creature’s type, and may change the creature’s size.

If a template changes the base creature’s type, the creature also acquires the augmented subtype unless the template description indicates otherwise. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. Unless a template indicates otherwise, the new creature has the traits of the new type but the features of the original type.

If a template changes a creature’s size, use Table: Changes to Statistics by Size to calculate changes to natural armor, Armor Class, attack rolls, and grapple bonus.

[Hiro Quester]

It seems your DM is applying the changes that result from Enlarge Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargePerson.htm).


The target gains a +2 size bonus to Strength, a -2 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum of 1), and a -1 penalty on attack rolls and AC due to its increased size.

A humanoid creature whose size increases to Large has a space of 10 feet and a natural reach of 10 feet. This spell does not change the target’s speed.

Edit: so +2 str and -1 to hit even each other out. But your increased str does more damage. But you are slower and bigger, so are easier to hit. And you have extended reach.

[ericgrau]

Reach? I didn't see that... I thought they had the same reach as medium (5ft), only increasing to 10ft if they are Huge sized.
Yeah including the +2 str and -2 dex in your DM's trait you basically get:
- 10' reach. A reach weapon may increase this to 20' at the expense of not being able to attack adjacent foes.
- +5 to special attacks such as grapple and trip. At low levels it means near auto-success against all but the strongest foes, and a decent chance against the strongest foes. At high level it means you can still keep up with most foes, but you'll need further boosts to have a decent chance against the strongest foes.
- +0 to hit (no effect)
- Around +3.5 to +5 damage depending on the weapon wielded.
- -2 AC. That actually hurts melee quite a bit, with 20-40% more damage from most melee foes. So once foes reach around 20 damage per hit their extra hits start to become a wash with your extra damage per hit. Not terrible since not all foes are melee, but once they get above 20 damage per hit the ones that are melee start to bring up the average even with the foes that aren't melee.

You have to rely on your reach and/or special attacks to have an advantage.

Thus I'd pick up a reach trip weapon such as a guisarme or spiked chain if you take the trait. Grappling is an option too, especially on a monk (or other build with unarmed damage progression) thanks to their extra grapple damage and extra attempts to initiate a grapple. Or if you invest in nice armor spikes on a full BAB character. They get less attempts to initiate but a better chance of initiating per attempt so that's only a small disadvantage, if any. And the armor spikes help you keep up in damage as long as you keep upgrading them as you level up. The advantage of spikes is more attack options: you could deal better non-grapple damage than a monk and use a reach weapon. The disadvantage is less specialization compared to a monk grappler who deals more grapple damage overall. Monks have a lower chance of initiating on single attacks, but you have to remember when you initiate a grapple you are just as disabled as the target so unless you deal more grapple damage than him that's not much help.

So basically be a full BAB reach tripper if you get the trait for it to be worthwhile. Optionally with the side ability to grapple with armor spikes but that will eat a lot of feats if you do, so probably not a good idea at low level. Or be an armor spike grappler with a reach weapon to deal damage. Specializing in grapple feats but with the side option to deal decent reach damage. Or be a monk (or other high unarmed damage build) specialized grappler.

[KillianHawkeye]

- 10' reach. A reach weapon may increase this to 20' at the expense of not being able to attack adjacent foes.

Minor correction: A large creature wielding a typical reach weapon would also be unable to attack opponents 10 feet away.

[Troacctid]

Enlarge Person can be made permanent for about 3000 gp, roughly, so that's about how valuable this trait is from a money standpoint, give or take.

[Eloel]

Minor correction: A large creature wielding a typical reach weapon would also be unable to attack opponents 10 feet away.
Unless he has spiked armor/shield/gauntlet or IUS.


Enlarge Person can be made permanent for about 3000 gp, roughly, so that's about how valuable this trait is from a money standpoint, give or take.

That is dispellable, and does not stack with itself. You can still Enlarge on top of this trait - I'd say the trait is significantly more valuable.