Breaking Bones, and Jabbing Eyes?

[Fatty Tosscoble]

Many times in combat my players see opportunities to break an enemies arm, try and rip a skeletons head off, or something along these lines. So far I have not found any good way of doing these types of actions without making it too easy or too hard for players, and not making the effects to crippling for NPC's.

For example I don't want players encountering guards, and instantly making a swing for their heads, and knocking all of them out within a few turns.

I'm looking for stuff like:
1) Taking a zombies arm off
2) Breaking a humans arm
3) Knocking a enemy out without having to reduce HP to 0
4) Snapping a guards spear in two

This is kind of a weird question to answer, so I don't expect any long explanations or lists of obscure rules.

[hymer]

Just some thoughts:


1) Taking a zombies arm off

Use the same mechanic as Shove to make the zombie prone. To compensate for the permanence of an arm lobbed off, give the zombie advantage on its check.
Zombies are just minions meant to be plowed into the ground by the PCs. Let them. They aren't stopped by the lack of an arm, they don't bleed or feel pain, and their body should be damaged enough to let it happen.


2) Breaking a humans arm

Are these lesser minions to be killed off in a quick fight? Use the same thing as for lobbing a zombie's arm off. Otherwise it isn't possible as part of normal combat.


3) Knocking a enemy out without having to reduce HP to 0

No. This is unbalancing. Go through the hp, or use disabling abilities and spells.


4) Snapping a guards spear in two

Try DMG p. 271, optional rule 'Disarm'.

[Gastronomie]

It's not a good idea to ban these actions. These are the whole reason TRPGs are fun anyways. But there should be rules as to how they can be done.

Well, jabbing at eyes is a very difficult task when your opponent is coming at you with a sword in his hand. It would require precise aim, such as when a Monk hits a Critical.

Breaking bones requires first grasping the target's arm and then twisting it around. This would require two free hands (no holding swords or shields), and apart from that, is a not very realistic thing to do while wearing Heavy Armor, or something that otherwise makes swift movements difficult.

I would rule that "jabbing at eyes" is not an action you can do unless you score a critical (in which case, if I were the DM, I would allow him to destroy one of the poor target's eyes).
Also, breaking an arm would require two attacks spent (one successful "grapple", and another str check to try twisting it around). Someone with Extra Attack might be able to perform both of these in the same turn.

Snapping a guard's spear in two would require either:
-Grappling the spear (with disadvantage, since the guard will do his best to not have the player character grap his weapon) and then spending an attack to break it (treat it as something like AC 18, HP 15 if it's a normal spear)

Now, if you want to knock out a character without making his HP 0, I as a DM would say no. Because you get "unconscious" when your HP hit 0. I mean, that's what HP is, basically.

And I doubt taking a zombie's arm off will be a good move, since he still has his jaws and his other hand. Better to chop off a leg, but that would probably result in disadvantage as you need to crouch down, or at least lean down, to jab at one's leg.

Some ideas like this. How would these work?

[Lines]

Whatever you decide the mechanism is, let spells do them too where appropriate. If you can break an arm with a club, you should be able to break an arm with magic missile.

[JackPhoenix]

Look at Lingering Injuries, DMG p. 272. The effect isn't at will, but on critical hit or getting the enemy to 0 hp. Make it extremely clear that if the players do it, the monsters can and will do it too.

The combat rules are abstract for a reason...the game wouldn't be much fun for most people if the characters ended up crippled after first few battles, before they even get to level 2.

[Spectre9000]

Many times in combat my players see opportunities to break an enemies arm, try and rip a skeletons head off, or something along these lines. So far I have not found any good way of doing these types of actions without making it too easy or too hard for players, and not making the effects to crippling for NPC's.

For example I don't want players encountering guards, and instantly making a swing for their heads, and knocking all of them out within a few turns.

I'm looking for stuff like:
1) Taking a zombies arm off
2) Breaking a humans arm
3) Knocking a enemy out without having to reduce HP to 0
4) Snapping a guards spear in two

This is kind of a weird question to answer, so I don't expect any long explanations or lists of obscure rules.

For hacking a limb off, I generally will set a damage threshold the players will have to overcome before it can be dismembered, which is generally pretty high, as that's an almost fatal wound. As to things like Eyes and hard to hit specific targets, that aren't going to be as fatal, I generally base this off their Attack Role and set a higher DC to grant the desired effect.

As to knocking an individual out, I have the player make a stealth check to see if he's noticed, then an Attack Roll to see if he hits, then the creature gets to make a constitution saving throw to stay conscious. A fair bit has to go right for the player to be able to do this, but it gives the player the option, and as a DM, I've even used this against a player who became obscenely belligerent in a bar one night after the rest of his party turned in. He woke up in Jail the next day.

Concerning objects, there are rules for breaking them, though I don't have the page number off-hand, or even exactly which book, though I think it's PHB or DMG. I would use those rules for the spear. Basically, it amounts to setting a DC to hit (or you could just say AC) and giving it some set of Hit-points before it breaks.

[lebefrei]

You may also stop your players from continuing to look for further ways to exploit and/or step outside of the bounds of the game. D&D allows for great creative freedom, but by no means is it unlimited.

This is a game, and it contains rules. You're the DM, and you can break or change those... Or choose not to. The players have the PHB. If they can't find how to do something they want, that is because it falls outside the scope of the game. I don't want to have to make new rules and work to balance them all the time because someone thinks they should be able to do something different, personally.

It can be a lot of fun to play out a unique solution, but I make it a one off roleplaying encounter and move on. I don't incorporate too many player ideas into my game. They aren't DMing and don't have to deal with the consequences of rebalancing.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Look at Lingering Injuries, DMG p. 272. The effect isn't at will, but on critical hit or getting the enemy to 0 hp. Make it extremely clear that if the players do it, the monsters can and will do it too.

The combat rules are abstract for a reason...the game wouldn't be much fun for most people if the characters ended up crippled after first few battles, before they even get to level 2.

This is sensible advice.

As an additional insight, look at the Sword of Sharpness (DMG 206). That's a very rare magic item, and it specifically says you lop off a limb with it if you roll two 20s in a row. Clearly this is something the game designers consider a powerful effect and, by putting it into that specific item, they imply that it shouldn't normally be possible with other weapons.

[Spectre9000]

This is sensible advice.

As an additional insight, look at the Sword of Sharpness (DMG 206). That's a very rare magic item, and it specifically says you lop off a limb with it if you roll two 20s in a row. Clearly this is something the game designers consider a powerful effect and, by putting it into that specific item, they imply that it shouldn't normally be possible with other weapons.

I agree the intent might be to not have dismemberment be a common occurrence, but in reality dismemberment really was a very common occurrence. I know we're not trying to make things super realistic, but I consider it incredibly unrealistic (beyond the suspension of disbelief) for WotC to not want it to really ever be a part of the game. I've yet to see a player not try to dismember an enemy in some fashion. I know they want to include a more casual and less violent audience as well, but at least they should provide optional rules for it.

[RickAllison]

I agree the intent might be to not have dismemberment be a common occurrence, but in reality dismemberment really was a very common occurrence. I know we're not trying to make things super realistic, but I consider it incredibly unrealistic (beyond the suspension of disbelief) for WotC to not want it to really ever be a part of the game. I've yet to see a player not try to dismember an enemy in some fashion. I know they want to include a more casual and less violent audience as well, but at least they should provide optional rules for it.

As well, remember that the dismemberment is not the only effect of the sword. It also does bonus damage on the natural 20 that is roughly equivalent to a 4d6 (14), which is a significant bonus to any attack; finally, it is fantastic for cleaving apart objects.

Another way to look at it is the idea of Disarming. Disarm is an alternate action that can be done by anyone, and then it is a class feature for the Battlemaster. The Battlemaster's advantage is that he can get the added effect without having to sacrifice his actions. So while the Sword of Sharpness has amputation as an effect, it is a rider that can come into play with regular attacks whereas dismemberment should probably be a dedicated action attempt. Just a thought.

[Captbrannigan]

I agree the intent might be to not have dismemberment be a common occurrence, but in reality dismemberment really was a very common occurrence. I know we're not trying to make things super realistic, but I consider it incredibly unrealistic (beyond the suspension of disbelief) for WotC to not want it to really ever be a part of the game. I've yet to see a player not try to dismember an enemy in some fashion. I know they want to include a more casual and less violent audience as well, but at least they should provide optional rules for it.If PCs can do it, so can NPC/mobs. Players don't have much fun losing limbs and bleeding out in a matter of rounds. Try pulling out one of those old 2e or 3e dismemberment tables to roll crits on, and see how long your players are still interested in "realism" in a game about unicorns and fireballs.

There also are no rules for denting your opponent's armor in, which was the purpose of most blunt weapons like a mace. If your breastplate was sufficiently indented, you wouldn't be able to take full breaths and would likely suffer from exhaustion. Why aren't there rules for this?


Because all of that is represented by the abstract concept of Hit Points. You can only take so many hits before you're out of the fight. D&D also assumes that during a six second round, you're both dodging and landing several hits. The roll to hit is to see if you hit hard enough to cause damage, and then you roll to determine how much.


If you want dismemberment, describe that as the outcome of the opponent running out of hp. "You exhausted the bbeg and she raised her arm in a feeble attempt to ward off your final blow, only to have her forearm cleaved through. In shock, she watches her blood spurt from her stump a few times before collapsing to the ground in a heap."

There's also nothing stopping you from setting minor hp limits for visible damage, ie at 50% they break/strain their off hand, at 25% they lose use of an eye, etc. Actually works pretty well for recurring bbegs. Just to be clear I wouldn't impose any (or at most much) mechanical effects for these, but use them to keep players engaged in combat and not just see it as chopping down trees. You can even do this for players, and describe how during their short rest they put a splint around a fracture or describe how Cure Wounds partially seals a wound leaving a patch of tender, fresh skin.

Oh ya, I should also note that PCs are constantly trying to land killing/incapacitating blows. It's not like you're just banging swords together until the arbitrary time comes to try to land something significant. I'm fine with players describing how they attack, and I don't add modifiers for called shots. Like I said, the assumption is that even the first attack was trying to stab them though the eye, but they were able to dodge enough that you only cut their face instead. For that last hit, I do like to get some details flowing and I either make something up or let the player describe the killing blow.

The reason your "battle prowess" isn't diminished until you hit zero and fall unconscious is, again, if it's true for the mobs then it's true for the players. It's really hard to pull off a heroic comeback and prevent a tpk if you can't hit or you do less damage when bloodied.

[Fatty Tosscoble]

It can be a lot of fun to play out a unique solution, but I make it a one off roleplaying encounter and move on. I don't incorporate too many player ideas into my game. They aren't DMing and don't have to deal with the consequences of rebalancing.[/QUOTE]

Usually my players are good when it comes to not exploiting game mechanics; they usually help to make every encounter memorably and theatric (not in a Gary Stu kind of way).

[Fatty Tosscoble]

Yeah I get what you mean. Usually if I have a monster getting dismembered, it's because of a series of events. 1. It's a low health 2. A player scored a crit on it 3. he also wins a disadvantaged strength check, that if he didn't pass would have given him another disadvantage next turn, because of the really forceful swing.

[Talyn]

As some earlier posters have already pointed out, any 'fight ending injury' (like dismemberment, major bone breakage, eye gouging, or massive concussion) happens at HP 0. Every successful attack before that simply brings you closer to that point - whether through fatigue, inattention, damage to armor, or just running out of good luck. You don't want rules that you end fights earlier, because they will be roughly a zillion times more dangerous to the players than to the monsters.

Breaking the spear, on the other hand, I'd say is simply an attack roll vs the spear's AC. (What is the spear's AC? That's a good question. Maybe 10+wielder's proficiency bonus?) A spear's got hit points based on it's size, and damage reduction based on what materials it's made out of. Reduce the hit points to zero, and you break the spear.

[Laserlight]

I would rule that "jabbing at eyes" is not an action you can do unless you score a critical (in which case, if I were the DM, I would allow him to destroy one of the poor target's eyes).

Snapping a guard's spear in two would require either:
-Grappling the spear (with disadvantage, since the guard will do his best to not have the player character grap his weapon) and then spending an attack to break it (treat it as something like AC 18, HP 15 if it's a normal spear)

And I doubt taking a zombie's arm off will be a good move, since he still has his jaws and his other hand. Better to chop off a leg, but that would probably result in disadvantage as you need to crouch down, or at least lean down, to jab at one's leg.

Losing an eye is immediately disabling in and of itself, even if the attack doesn't penetrate through the socket to the brain. If you do a crit and it drops the target to 0hp, you can say that it's a hit on the eye.

Breaking a spear--you wouldn't grapple, you'd just chop. Bear in mind that the spear is essentially only supported at one point and will tend to pivot when you hit it--it's harder to break than if it were laid across sawhorses. Of course, many spears had reinforcements to prevent being chopped, so clearly a lot of people thought it was a risk. Of course, your guard may have a spear with that sort of reinforcement...

As for attacking a leg--would be a bit of a stretch if you have a short weapon, but you're fine with a medium or longer weapon.

[Gtdead]

What you are asking for is called "Called shots".

Some systems supposedly have it, dnd doesn't (and for a good reason to be honest). However that shouldn't prevent you from homebrewing a system, but don't give too much info to your players.

My suggestion would be to have every player (that wants to do a called attack) state the intention of the attack (as long as it's applicable). For example "I try to hamstring the bastard", or "I try to poke his eyes", or "cut his arm off". Let the player roll the attack, and if he scores a natural 20 or surpasses the enemy's ac by 5, let the enemy do a dexterity save against lets say a dc of 10+the player's attack modifier, and if he fails he gets crippled.

Then give a disadvantage or a certain negative modifier in the actions of the crippled enemy. For example, you hamstring the enemy and he cant move more than half his normal speed. If you pull the zombie's right arm off, then it can't grapple and has attack roll disadvantage against players standing in front and at it's right side. You poke his eye out, stunned for a round and has disadvantage against attack rolls from his blind side. Poke his second eye out give him a blind effect or perhaps a confusion effect if he is of the angry kind ;p .

You can also impose some kind of disadvantage in the damage roll if the called attack doesn't work (player hits the target, but not enough to trigger the intented effect).

This will obviously work better in a low magic setting.
Also I pulled this idea out of thin air so the numbers may be absurd. If you like it you should toy around with it and make your own numbers and thresholds.