Monk damage

[Bullytt]

Hi all.. Just a little query

A level 5 monk has an attack and spends a Ki for flurry of blows

He uses a shortsword and has dex bonus +4

He also gets an extra attack and uses flurry on that too.

How many attacks is that in total and which attacks allow the dmg modifier +4?

Thanks very much for any help here,

Bullytt

[thebiglost1]

2 attacks with short sword as an attack action, 1 unarmed strike as a bonus action without spending ki points, total of 2 unarmed strikes as a bonus action if 1 ki point is spent.

All attacks gain dex mod for damage.

[Lalliman]

You seem to have missed the point of bonus actions: you can only take one per round.
So it's two shortsword attacks with the Attack action, two unarmed attacks as a bonus action.

[Bullytt]

So it should be

Sword , flurry (2 martial) sword

And in a normal round

Sword, martial, sword

All attacks get the bonus dex dmg?

[Waffle_Iron]

On a normal, no ki round:
2 sword attacks (attack action)
1 unarmed attack (martial arts bonus action)

With ki, this becomes:
2 sword attacks (attack action)
2 unarmed attacks (flurry of blows bonus action)

All of these attacks are +DEX modifier damage.

[PeteNutButter]

Yep 4 w flurry of 3 normal all w dex(or str if preferred), but you're better off using a staff or spear versatile for a d8 on the weapon attacks.

[RickAllison]

So with the character's level and modifier, that is:

1d6+4 (slashing) -> 1d6+4 (slashing) -> 1d6+4 (bludgeoning) for no ki points. Add on one more 1d6+4 (bludgeoning) if you want to spend one! With all hits, that's a sum of 22.5 (3d6+12) regular and 30 (4d6+16) for 1 ki.

[coredump]

Another detail.... you get to use Martial Arts or Flurry of Blows whenever you take the "Attack Action", not when you make 'an attack'.

So, if in some weird future world the monk gained the ability to have two bonus actions, he would still be limited to one MA attack or 2 FoB attacks, since he only has 1 Attack Action, even if he gets 2 attacks.

[Ninja_Prawn]

So with the character's level and modifier, that is:

1d6+4 (slashing) -> 1d6+4 (slashing) -> 1d6+4 (bludgeoning) for no ki points. Add on one more 1d6+4 (bludgeoning) if you want to spend one! With all hits, that's a sum of 22.5 (3d6+12) regular and 30 (4d6+16) for 1 ki.

I make this right, except to note that shortswords deal piercing damage. :smalltongue:

[Bullytt]

Thank you all for the replies .. Just one more addition.. Shortsword As a light weapon give a main hand and offhand attack..

We have sorted the martial side

Sword sword martial no ki
Sword sword martial martial with ki

What is the extra attack allowed?

[RickAllison]

Thank you all for the replies .. Just one more addition.. Shortsword As a light weapon give a main hand and offhand attack..

We have sorted the martial side

Sword sword martial no ki
Sword sword martial martial with ki

What is the extra attack allowed?

The Extra Attack feature is accounted for with the second sword attack. If you are referring to two-weapon fighting, that takes a bonus action. In that case, you would have sword -> sword -> sword (without modifier).

[Bullytt]

The Extra Attack feature is accounted for with the second sword attack. If you are referring to two-weapon fighting, that takes a bonus action. In that case, you would have sword -> sword -> sword (without modifier).


Hmmmm so in the case of a monk past level 5 it would be better to have a quarter staff ?

Normal action round would look like:

Quarter staff+Dex, normal attack, plus martial art+dex, plus extra attack quarter staff + dex

Spend a ki point for flurry and add an extra martial art+dex to the above?

[RickAllison]

Hmmmm so in the case of a monk past level 5 it would be better to have a quarter staff ?

Normal action round would look like:

Quarter staff+Dex, normal attack, plus martial art+dex, plus extra attack quarter staff + dex

Spend a ki point for flurry and add an extra martial art+dex to the above?

Two quarterstaff attacks only.

[Mechaviking]

The Spear is the Best monk weapon(until late game).

Base damage for Spear is d6 but it is versatile so you can 2 hand it for d8´s.

[Bullytt]

I so wish you had said yes to the last post .. I actually thought I was getting this!

So a monk with extra attack using a two hander gets
Attack
Extra attack
Only as the extra attack is the bonus attack .. No martial arts even with ki

Where the same monk with 2 shortswords gets
Attack main hand
Attack off hand
Martial arts

Off hand attack is the only that doesn't get dex modifier?

I think I may have really screwed up my dming..
I have been allowing duel hand xbows two attacks for a ranger under lvl 5... And was about to let them make an extra main hand attack when they got extra attack ( bolts of returning )

Seems like the monk is getting a raw deal if hey can't use martial on top of other attacks.

I dread to think what would happen when the fighter gets 4 attacks!

[Bullytt]

The Spear is the Best monk weapon(until late game).

Base damage for Spear is d6 but it is versatile so you can 2 hand it for d8´s.

Thank you for that .. I didn't really consider them

[greenstone]

Where the same monk with 2 shortswords gets
Attack main hand
Attack off hand
Martial arts

No. You get one Action and up to one Bonus Action per round.

If I have this right (not guaranteed :-):

Action:
Use the Extra Attacks feature to get two attacks. Either both with one shortsword or one with each shortsword. Attacks are at full damage.

Bonus Action:
Use two-weapon fighting to get one offhand shortsword attack (no bonus damage from DEX),
-or-
Use martial arts to get one unarmed attack (full damage),
-or-
Use martial arts and spend a ki point to get two unarmed attacks (full damage),


The most attacks per round you can get is four.

As an aside, you can freely move between all of these attacks if you wish.

[McNinja]

I so wish you had said yes to the last post .. I actually thought I was getting this!

So a monk with extra attack using a two hander gets
Attack
Extra attack
Only as the extra attack is the bonus attack .. No martial arts even with ki

Where the same monk with 2 shortswords gets
Attack main hand
Attack off hand
Martial arts

Off hand attack is the only that doesn't get dex modifier?

I think I may have really screwed up my dming..
I have been allowing duel hand xbows two attacks for a ranger under lvl 5... And was about to let them make an extra main hand attack when they got extra attack ( bolts of returning )

Seems like the monk is getting a raw deal if hey can't use martial on top of other attacks.

I dread to think what would happen when the fighter gets 4 attacks!No. A monk with 1 shortsword gets 2 attacks (from Extra Attack), and can use his bonus action to make one more attack (from Martial Arts), or two unarmed attacks if he spends 1 ki point for Flurry of Blows. 3 attacks normally, 4 total attacks with Flurry of Blows.

A monk with 2 shortswords gets 2 attacks (from Extra Attack), the martial arts bonus action attack, and could make one more unarmed attack with flurry of blows. 3 attacks, 4 attacks if you spend 1 ki to use Flurry of Blows.

A monk with a spear gets 2 attacks (from Extra Attack), the martial arts bonus action attack, and could make one more unarmed attack with flurry of blows, exactly the same as having 1 shortsword. The difference is that a monk could utilize the spear's Versatile property and wield the spear with two hands, and the damage die become d8's instead of d6's.

You get 1 action and 1 bonus action.
Extra Attack is an action, so you can attack twice using that.
Martial arts and flurry of blows are both bonus actions - Martial arts gives you 1 attack, flurry of blows gives you 2, you have to choose if you want to spend 1 ki on flurry of blows for the second attack.
You also get a reaction, in most cases this is an Attack of Opportunity, which you only get if the enemy you are fighting moves away from you.

[Malifice]

He also gets an extra attack and uses flurry on that too.

You dont flurry with an attack.

You flurry as a bonus action after taking the attack action.

The attack action (with extra attack) lets you make 2 attacks.

The bonus action flurry is two more.

[Silavor]

I so wish you had said yes to the last post .. I actually thought I was getting this!

So a monk with extra attack using a two hander gets
Attack
Extra attack
Only as the extra attack is the bonus attack .. No martial arts even with ki

Where the same monk with 2 shortswords gets
Attack main hand
Attack off hand
Martial arts

Off hand attack is the only that doesn't get dex modifier?

I think I may have really screwed up my dming..
I have been allowing duel hand xbows two attacks for a ranger under lvl 5... And was about to let them make an extra main hand attack when they got extra attack ( bolts of returning )

Seems like the monk is getting a raw deal if hey can't use martial on top of other attacks.

I dread to think what would happen when the fighter gets 4 attacks!

It seems like you are seriously starting to over-think this. Your gut instinct with the ranger was correct.

Dual-wielding and martial arts don't play well together in 5e. They both consume your bonus action, which means you can only do one or the other on your turn, not both. This is why people in this thread are recommending two-handing a spear as a monk instead of dual-wielding shortswords.

The Extra Attack class feature is not the same thing as the bonus action attack from dual-wielding or martial arts, so don't get them confused. Extra Attack just means that after level 5, when you take the Attack Action, your main hand weapon attacks twice instead of once. This effect is completely separate from dual-wielding or martial arts.


So to reiterate what you were attempting earlier:

A 5th level monk two-handing a spear can:

Attack Action with the spear: 1d8+Dex
Extra Attack added on to the Attack Action: 1d8+Dex
Bonus Action Unarmed Strike from Martial Arts: 1d6+Dex


OR


Attack Action with the spear: 1d8+Dex
Extra Attack added on to the Attack Action: 1d8+Dex
Bonus Action Flurry of Blows to make two Unarmed Strikes: 1d6+Dex + 1d6+Dex



The same monk dual-wielding two shortswords looks like this:

Attack Action with the mainhand shortsword: 1d6+Dex
Extra Attack added on to the Attack Action: 1d6+Dex
Bonus Action Attack with the offhand shortsword from dual-wielding: 1d6 (no Dex damage because offhand)


If the dual-wielding monk wants to use Martial Arts or Flurry of Blows, they have to give up the Bonus Action Attack to do so. This hopefully illustrates why dual-wielding as a monk is really really stupid, because your Unarmed Strikes are inherently better.

[Bullytt]

Awesome clarity and examples..

Lead to enlightenment.

Many thanks to everyone patient enough to explain this more than once.

I get it now and am making my DM adjustments!!

:D

[Elfcrusher]

In what way is a spear better than a quarterstaff? To save a pound of carried weight? Is Piercing better than Bludgeoning?

[Elfcrusher]

Oh, and on dual-wielding: there's no reason you can't HOLD two weapons, if you think it sounds cooler. Just don't use your bonus action to actually attack with the 2nd one. But until level 12 you'll be giving up a small amount of damage to do so.

[RickAllison]

In what way is a spear better than a quarterstaff? To save a pound of carried weight? Is Piercing better than Bludgeoning?

Spear is better because you have at-will bludgeoning damage anyway with the fists and that it can be thrown in an emergency (on top of weighing less). Costing five times as much is a small price to pay when you have a free, Monk weapon projectile in an emergency. As for dual-wielding, I could have sworn I read somewhere that you can attack with the second weapon as part of the Attack action just as one can choose to attack with an unarmed attack, a grapple, or a shove. Could be useful if one has two magic weapons with useful effects.

[soldersbushwack]

RickAllison yes I believe if you have an Extra Attack you could attack with weapons in two different hands as part of the attack action (one for each attack.) Unless you have a magic weapon I don't believe it is useful though. One thing you can do is have a whip in one hand and a shorter range but more damaging weapon in the other. Another thing you can do is throw two different weapons in one attack action (although for maximum effect you need to have the Dual Wield feat and be a multiclass with Rogue Thief and a class that gets Extra Attack.)

[RulesJD]

Spear is better because you have at-will bludgeoning damage anyway with the fists and that it can be thrown in an emergency (on top of weighing less). Costing five times as much is a small price to pay when you have a free, Monk weapon projectile in an emergency. As for dual-wielding, I could have sworn I read somewhere that you can attack with the second weapon as part of the Attack action just as one can choose to attack with an unarmed attack, a grapple, or a shove. Could be useful if one has two magic weapons with useful effects.

Generally speaking Quarterstaffs are better than Spears, but only for the reason that magical quarter staffs are more prevalent in the DMG. Find a staff with a damage rider and you're off to the races.

[RickAllison]

Generally speaking Quarterstaffs are better than Spears, but only for the reason that magical quarter staffs are more prevalent in the DMG. Find a staff with a damage rider and you're off to the races.

Yes, but that isn't a comparison of a quarterstaff versus a spear, is it? :smallwink: Unless one is using Shillelagh or a magic item is obtained, the spear is better, but I understand that a magic item would change things.

As for Soldersbushwack, I said you could attack with both weapons, I never said it was necessarily a good idea :smallbiggrin: Barring magic weapons, a monk should generally stick with a quarterstaff or spear for damage (since the upgraded damage die works at all levels for Versatile), a dagger or some such monk weapon with the Thrown quality for versatility, or just keeping fists to avoid having to drop an item to interact with another, at least IMO.

[RulesJD]

Yes, but that isn't a comparison of a quarterstaff versus a spear, is it? :smallwink: Unless one is using Shillelagh or a magic item is obtained, the spear is better, but I understand that a magic item would change things.

As for Soldersbushwack, I said you could attack with both weapons, I never said it was necessarily a good idea :smallbiggrin: Barring magic weapons, a monk should generally stick with a quarterstaff or spear for damage (since the upgraded damage die works at all levels for Versatile), a dagger or some such monk weapon with the Thrown quality for versatility, or just keeping fists to avoid having to drop an item to interact with another, at least IMO.

There's also the fact that a Quarterstaff works with Polearm Mastery while a Spear does not. Not the most optimal choice for a Monk, but still doable for the reaction attack + Stunning Strike to shut down an enemy on an off turn.

[RickAllison]

There's also the fact that a Quarterstaff works with Polearm Mastery while a Spear does not. Not the most optimal choice for a Monk, but still doable for the reaction attack + Stunning Strike to shut down an enemy on an off turn.

Very good point! It seems like where spears as a weapon get superior traits, quarterstaves get more love in the rest of the PHB and the DMG :smallsmile:

[Joe the Rat]

This is where I grumble about spears and tridents not counting as polearms (with the same options as the pike), while a quarterstaff does (as a backdoor means to making it a "double weapon"). I would make the exception, but that is a houseruling, not RAW. Heck, adding Tridents to the list would have at least justified their existence.

Ignoring Feat support, Q-staff or Spear will be better (but less stylish) than the shortswords. Until 11th, at which point switch to daggers because everything is d8s.

[Douche]

The Spear is the Best monk weapon(until late game).

Base damage for Spear is d6 but it is versatile so you can 2 hand it for d8´s.

Does that mean you can also take one hand off to punch people? Cuz that sounds pretty darn cool

Never thought of versatile weapons having that option as a bonus

[Joe the Rat]

If you have an anal retentive DM, you can just kick them for your martial arts / flurry of blows

[RickAllison]

This is where I grumble about spears and tridents not counting as polearms (with the same options as the pike), while a quarterstaff does (as a backdoor means to making it a "double weapon"). I would make the exception, but that is a houseruling, not RAW. Heck, adding Tridents to the list would have at least justified their existence.

Ignoring Feat support, Q-staff or Spear will be better (but less stylish) than the shortswords. Until 11th, at which point switch to daggers because everything is d8s.

If I am remembering the Versatile text right, spears and quarter staves are still best. IIRC, they upgrade the damage die; when everything is a d8, they would be a d10, and at the highest levels become a d12. I might be remembering wrong, however.

[RulesJD]

This is where I grumble about spears and tridents not counting as polearms (with the same options as the pike), while a quarterstaff does (as a backdoor means to making it a "double weapon"). I would make the exception, but that is a houseruling, not RAW. Heck, adding Tridents to the list would have at least justified their existence.

Ignoring Feat support, Q-staff or Spear will be better (but less stylish) than the shortswords. Until 11th, at which point switch to daggers because everything is d8s.

If you're playing the hardcovers as a Monk, there's twp daggers you really, really want to hunt down. One of fire, one of acid. Those damage riders (extra d6s) turn your dagger into a de facto greatsword.

[BladeWing81]

could claws of the umber hulk be used with dexterity or only if your DM allows you to use them as a Monk weapon?

[RickAllison]

could claws of the umber hulk be used with dexterity or only if your DM allows you to use them as a Monk weapon?

The DM would have to clear natural weapons as allowed for Martial Arts.

[Joe the Rat]

If I am remembering the Versatile text right, spears and quarter staves are still best. IIRC, they upgrade the damage die; when everything is a d8, they would be a d10, and at the highest levels become a d12. I might be remembering wrong, however.

The martial arts damage die can replace the weapon damage, not upgrade it. Once you hit the d8, you're only using weapons for damage types and special effects, and maybe not having to touch things directly (like oozes).

[RulesJD]

The martial arts damage die can replace the weapon damage, not upgrade it. Once you hit the d8, you're only using weapons for damage types and special effects, and maybe not having to touch things directly (like oozes).

That's wrong.

"You can roll a d4 in place of the normal damage of your unarmed strike or monk weapon. This die changes as you gain monk levels, as shown in the Martial Arts column of the Monk table."

As your Martial Arts damage die upgrades, so too does the damage die you use for a Monk weapon.

It's why getting a dagger with a damage rider (like the Dragon's Tooth Dagger that does an extra d6 acid on a hit) is best on a Monk because the base dagger damage (d4) instantly becomes a d6, d8, d10, etc depending on the level of the Monk.

[RickAllison]

That's wrong.

"You can roll a d4 in place of the normal damage of your unarmed strike or monk weapon. This die changes as you gain monk levels, as shown in the Martial Arts column of the Monk table."

As your Martial Arts damage die upgrades, so too does the damage die you use for a Monk weapon.

It's why getting a dagger with a damage rider (like the Dragon's Tooth Dagger that does an extra d6 acid on a hit) is best on a Monk because the base dagger damage (d4) instantly becomes a d6, d8, d10, etc depending on the level of the Monk.

He was reacting to my (mistaken) assumption that Versatile upgraded the damage die rather than just changing it to a set value. He said basically the same thing as you.

[Bullytt]

Gentlefolk and kind repliers...

My DM has thrown a proper spanner in the gnome widgets ! Namely a +2 dagger of speed

Am I right in thinking this will allow with plus 5 dex

1d4 + 7 1d4 + 7 main attack
1d 4 + 7 extra attack Lvl 5

1d 4 + 5 martial attack (with an extra if flurry of blows ki is used)

This would seem to beat the spear option.
Also I don't know if any DMs out there would repeat the main attack for the extra attack... Ie two stabs due to the nature of this badass weapon?

Look forward to a few views on this

Bullytt

[Giant2005]

If that Dagger of Speed works the same as a Scimitar of Speed, then the extra attack you receive is tied to your bonus action. That means that if you used its effect, you wouldn't receive any extra attacks from your Martial Arts feature or Flurry of Blows.

[Bullytt]

If that Dagger of Speed works the same as a Scimitar of Speed, then the extra attack you receive is tied to your bonus action. That means that if you used its effect, you wouldn't receive any extra attacks from your Martial Arts feature or Flurry of Blows.

Wow..

So what sounds like a pretty useful dagger might as well just be a +2 dagger..

This is where I start to wonder if extra attacks and offhand or martial attacks work.

My whole action is taken up with the two attacks at speed... Then I can use a martial.

Or I can
Attack once
Use Extra attack
Use martial

Kind of wish I didn't have it now...mother letdown is too much :/

[RulesJD]

Dagger = Monk Weapon = you upgrade the damage dice as you level.

[Joe the Rat]

+2 dagger X3, or +2 dagger X2, meleeX2 for 1 ki.

Using the speed function gives you a better bonus attack than the standard martial arts attack.

And the damage dice do scale on the dagger, so you should be hitting with d6's at that point.