Please help me with my Cleric 3.5

[KnightOfCalc]

I haven't played D&D for a couple years and I got back playing with a couple friends. Having been inexperienced, I created a Cleric because the party is primarily fighter based to support the party. I do not want my cleric to just be the healer, however. Having not played a cleric before, I need some advice. I don't want to change my character, but I would like some insight on directions to take my Cleric.

I am hoping to make my Cleric's DC high, possibly by taking the Vow of Nonviolence and focusing on buffing and disarming enemies.


Elven Cleric (Neutral Good)
level 2
Str 12
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 16
Cha 14

Feat: Point Black Shot
Domain: Community and Good
Any constructive feedback would be great! I may be able to get permission to change a domain or the feat.

Thank you to all!

[Mrs Kat]

Could you give some indication on what source materials are available to you? Core + BoED?

The Point blank/precise shot line are okay for an archery-based cleric, but clerics don't get much in the way of ray spells (Well, darkfire...) and I don't see much synergy with vow of nonviolence. You should also remember that vow of nonviolence has the feat "sacred vow" as a prerequisite.


If you're going to be focused on buffs for your party, protection devotion is also nice, either as a feat or a domain tradeout.

Community is mediocre, and I'm not a big fan of Good domain, personally.

[KnightOfCalc]

Right, sorry about that. Everything is open, for the most part.

As for the domains, I definitely understand that part :)

Thanks for the help!

[johnbragg]

So you want to play a cleric that buffs his allies real good. You've thought about Vow of Nonviolence.

Look into Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm).
You drop to d6 HD and 1/2 BAB, and you can't wear medium or heavy armor, or use shields. You're not going into melee anyway.
You get the Knowledge domain as a bonus domain, which means you get all Knowledge skills as class skills, and 6 skill points per level.

Hmmm. I had always thought that Cloistered Cleric gets an extra spell per spell level, but I don't see that.
Ask your DM about a custom domain list for buffing.
1. Bless
2. Mass Snakes' Swiftness (basically 1-round haste)
3. Haste
4. MAss Enlarge Person
5. MAss Bulls' Strength
6. Greater HEroism
7, 8, 9. ?????

[Troacctid]

Community domain is so-so—Bless and Prayer are at least solid support spells, and the domain power isn't the worst. Good domain is weak—most of the domain spells are lackluster and the domain power is boring. Personally, my favorite domain for buffing is Transformation: it has Enlarge Person and Polymorph. Time domain has Haste, which is nice, but the other spells are meh.

[ATHATH]

How cheese-tolerant is your DM? If you use Divine Metamagic (Persist) with the Ocular Spell feat, you can Persist pretty much any non-personal spell on your allies. Lesser Vigor and Haste tend to be good candidates for this.

Don't forget that because you're a Good-aligned Cleric, you can spontaneously cast Sanctified spells (heal the ability damage with the Restoration spell line). Your normal ability to spontaneously cast Cure spells can also cast Leomund's SeCURE Shelter, ObsCURE Object, and SeCURE Corpse.

[Extra Anchovies]

How cheese-tolerant is your DM? If you use Divine Metamagic (Persist) with the Ocular Spell feat, you can Persist pretty much any non-personal spell on your allies. Lesser Vigor and Haste tend to be good candidates for this.

In fact, a particularly cheese-tolerant DM might allow for a strict reading of Ocular Spell. The feat allows "ray spells and spells with a target other than personal", but all Personal spells are Range: Personal and Target: You, so as written the feat allows for ray spells and spells with a "Target:" line in their description. Obviously not intentional on the part of the writer, but it opens up some very interesting options. Ocular Tenser's Transformation, for example, is a no-save, no-SR, ranged-touch spell that prevents any and all spellcasting for 1 round per level.

[Troacctid]

Your normal ability to spontaneously cast Cure spells can also cast Leomund's SeCURE Shelter, ObsCURE Object, and SeCURE Corpse.
"Secure" is a different word than "Cure," soooo, no you can't. Although since Leomund's Secure Shelter is also a Sanctified spell (Celestial Fortress, whatever, same thing), I guess you actually can do that one.

Note that you can trade one of your domain-granted powers for the ability to spontaneously cast restoration spells, via Dungeonscape. Useful if you plan on casting a lot of Sanctified magic.

Also, not much point in doing extra shenanigans to persist Lesser Vigor when you can already persist Mass Lesser Vigor without extra shenanigans.

[ATHATH]

"Secure" is a different word than "Cure," soooo, no you can't. Although since Leomund's Secure Shelter is also a Sanctified spell (Celestial Fortress, whatever, same thing), I guess you actually can do that one.

Note that you can trade one of your domain-granted powers for the ability to spontaneously cast restoration spells, via Dungeonscape. Useful if you plan on casting a lot of Sanctified magic.

Also, not much point in doing extra shenanigans to persist Lesser Vigor when you can already persist Mass Lesser Vigor without extra shenanigans.
You can spontaneously cast cure spells, which are defined as any spell with "cure" in its title. It even defines that in the same sentence that says that you can spontaneously cast cure spells.

[Red Fel]

You can spontaneously cast cure spells, which are defined as any spell with "cure" in its title. It even defines that in the same sentence that says that you can spontaneously cast cure spells.

The word "cure." Not the four letters, C-U-R-E, in that order.

Please don't be that guy, ATHATH. An occasional deliberately cheesy reading, purely for entertainment purposes, can be amusing, but this is just trying too hard.

[Mrs Kat]

Hmmm. I had always thought that Cloistered Cleric gets an extra spell per spell level, but I don't see that.


They do get extra spells on their cleric list, and knowledge domain as a third domain, so there's that.

[Troacctid]

Read down a little further.


While wizards, druids, rangers, and paladins can all prepare sanctified spells, clerics have a special advantage: they can spontaneously cast any sanctified spell, just as they can spontaneously cast cure wounds spells.

[Mrs Kat]

Read down a little further.

Yeah, apologies. My bad.

[johnbragg]

They do get extra spells on their cleric list, and knowledge domain as a third domain, so there's that.

Somehow I had the idea that Cloistered Clerics cast more spells per day. Not just a wider selection of spells.

[Fizban]

Point Blank Shot is a very odd choice for someone considering Vow of Nonviolence, and I would also hope that by "disarm" you mean "cast Command: drop." As long as you've got a good grasp of your spells you can really do whatever you want with your domains and feats, archery or disarm included, but at the moment you're pointed all in different directions.

Personally, while I may not intend any given Cleric to be a healer, that niche is actually something that can't be filled by anyone else. Wizards can crush people with spells but only a Cleric can chain-heal so hard the DM literally can't kill you without obviously over-leveled monsters or metamagic builds. The better you are at healing when you want to, the more time you have to do other stuff, is how my thinking goes. But that's probably not what you're looking for so I won't list all the stuff.

If you intend to use Vow of Nonviolence, first you should make sure the rest of the group (players and DM included) are okay with it, if you haven't already, and then you should probably ask to switch Point Blank Shot to Sacred Vow. Don't forget that the DC bonus (and restrictions) only apply to humanoids and monstrous humanoids.

For mid levels, the defensive buffs with the most bang for your buck are Mass Resist Energy at 3rd, Mass Shield of Faith at 4th, and maybe Mass Conviction back at 3rd (Spell Compendium). Unlike most mass buffs these all last for a decent amount of time, so you can buff before combat or still have them active if a second wave hits you a minute after the first. Any foe that relies on a single energy type is completely screwed by MRE, and MSoF is basically the only mass AC buff with any duration that's not alignment-based Magic Circle. Mass Conviction is not worth the hard hp numbers of the other two, but is obviously superior if you're fighting foes that use their own save-or-X spells. As long as you've got those three and a couple Resurgence/Close Wounds/Delay Deaths prepared (or scrolled, or wanded) you should be good for defenses, before adding on any specialty stuff like Hide From Undead/Death Ward.

For "offensive" mass buffs you're a lot more restricted outside of the usual Greater Magic Weapon. It's pretty much Recitation, Blessing of the Righteous, and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (SpC, PHB2, SpC again), at 4th, 4th, and 5th. Recitation boosts everything, the Blessing is a damage buff, and the Wrath is a haste and damage buff. Blade of Blood (PHB2, 1st) on an adjacent ally's weapon is a nice martyr style bonus but best used when you have more hp to spare. There are some nice weapon buffs like Frost Weapon, Fell the Greatest Foe, Bladebane, Undead Bane Weapon, and even Brambles/Spikes, but with multiple fighters to buff you can't afford to be buffing one person at a time with round/level spells.

[KnightOfCalc]

Point Blank Shot is a very odd choice for someone considering Vow of Nonviolence, and I would also hope that by "disarm" you mean "cast Command: drop."

Yeah, I was planning on getting permission to switch it out.

Anyways, thanks for the help, everyone! This really helps! I appreciate the time you took to answer this.

What are some spells you would recommend? Prestige classes?

[Pluto!]

You can spontaneously cast cure spells, which are defined as any spell with "cure" in its title. It even defines that in the same sentence that says that you can spontaneously cast cure spells.
This is the GitPest post I've ever seen. I'm going to frame it above my mantle.

[ATHATH]

@Cure argument: I still don't agree with you, but I don't want to start an argument, so I'll drop it.

The Healer's Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6849.0) is intended for the Healer class (which is terrible), but goes over some Sanctified spells and good healing feats as well.

[Mrs Kat]

What are some spells you would recommend? Prestige classes?

Some spells I like (not a comprehensive list, but a start):


Spell name level category duration notes
Bless 1 party round/level +1 morale bonus on attack rolls and fear saves
Blade of blood 1 single target 1 round swift action, +1d6 damage, sacrifice 5hp for +3d6 damage
Protection from evil 1 single target minute/level +2 deflection bonus to AC and +2 to saving throws vs evil, prevent possession
Divine Favor 1 single target 1 minute +2 luck bonus on attack and damage
Ice Slick 1 debuff round/level make 20ft of icy ground, force balance checks
Detect evil 1 utility 10 minutes/level (c) detect evil creatures and things
Dispel Ward 1 utility - dispel magic on abjuration wards only
Ebon Eyes 1 single target 10 minutes/level see in the dark
Faith Healing 1 heal - maximised cure light wounds, own faith only
Nightshield 1 single target minute/level +2 bonus to saving throws, immunity to magic missile
Sanctuary 1 single target round/level enemies cannot attack target, ends when target attacks
Shield of Faith 1 single target minute/level + 3 deflection bonus to AC
Summon Monster 1 1 utility round/level
Lesser Vigor 1 heal fast healing 1 for 15 rounds
Remove Fear 1 heal - remove fear from a group
Interfaith blessing 2 party minute/level different bonuses depending on god of each target: Mayaheine +2AC, Wee Jas +1 attack rolls and skill checks, Obad Hai +1 attack +1AC
Silence 2 debuff minute/level
Lesser Restoration 2 heal - cure 1d4 points of ability damage
Close wounds 2 heal - immediate action heal 1d4+5hp to a creature within 40ft
Resist Energy 2 single target 10 minutes/level grant 20 points of resistance against one energy type
Soul Ward 2 heal minute/level prevent mental stat loss
Body Ward 2 heal minute/level prevent physical stat loss
Lesser Spell Immunity 2 single target 10 minutes/level Immunity to one first or second level spell
Entropic Shield 2 single target minute/level 20% miss chance for ranged attacks
Aid 2 single target minute/level +1 morale bonus on attack rolls and fear saves and d8+7 temporary hp
Animalistic Power 2 single target minute/level +2 enhancement bonus to str, dex and con
Bull's Strength 2 single target minute/level +4 enhancement bonus to str
Cat's Grace 2 single target minute/level +4 enhancement bonus to dex
Bear's Endurance 2 single target minute/level +4 enhancement bonus to con
Consecrate 2 utility -
Divine Insight 2 single target hour/level +12 to a single skill check, you are considered trained
Find Traps 2 utility minute/level +3 to search checks, find traps as a rogue
Hold Person 2 debuff - target humanoid is immobilised
Shield Other 2 single target hour/level
Sound Burst 2 debuff - 10ft burst, 1d8 sonic damage and fortitude save vs stun
Prayer 3 party round/level +1 luck bonus on attack, damage, saves and skill checks
Dispel Magic 3 debuff -
Invisibility Purge 3 debuff -
Magic Circle Against Evil 3 Party minute/level As prot evil
Mass Lesser Vigor 4 Heal - As lesser vigor
Mass Resist Energy 3 Party 10 minutes/level As res energy
Magic Vestment 3 single target hour/level Make an armour or shield +2 for 1 hour/level (CL/4)
Mass Aid 3 party minute/level As Aid
Wall of Salt 4 utility - Make a wall of salt, up to 35square feet in area, 7 inches thick, DC22 to break,
Create food and water 3 utility 24 hours Make rations for 21 people or 7 horses
Freedom of Movement 4 single target 10 minutes/level target cannot be grappled or otherwise restrained
Divine Power 4 single target round/level Gain full BAB, +6 strength and 7 temporary hp
Air Walk 4 utility 10 minutes/level
Recitation 4 party round/level +2 luck bonus on attacks and saving throws, +3 for worshippers of your god