Epic Balance possible pre-epic?

[Dromuthra]

Hey all, I don't post much but I've hit a bit of a quandary. I'm wondering if it would be possible for an ECL 15 character (allowing up to 3 LA, LA buyoff allowed) to consistently make the DC 120 Balance check to walk on clouds/air. Items with a competence bonus higher then 10 ARE allowed, but I can't go above WBL (200,000 gp) and it seems silly to spend more than ~1/3ish of it on an item of Balance. Ideally, I'd prefer to burn as few class levels as possible on this, but I'm not sure how feasible this is. Anyhow, all I can think of right now is:

Ranks: +18
Item Familiar: +18
Dex Bonus: ~+8
Charisma Bonus (Marshal): +10
Item of +24:
Take 10 (Exemplar): +10
Tumble Synergy: +2
Skill Focus (Balance): +3


For a grand total of +93. Still missing that last +27 though...

[Sapreaver]

There is also the agile feat for another plus 2
Uh greater heroism for +4
Also isn't there a feat that let's you break the skill point cap?

[HunterOfJello]

There is also the agile feat for another plus 2
Uh greater heroism for +4
Also isn't there a feat that let's you break the skill point cap?

Primary Contact from Cityscape gives you 1 skill rank and can break the cap. It has a prerequisite feat of Favored which gives you a +2 competence bonus to an organization's skill.


It could theoretically be used in a build for early access to something, but I've never seen anyone use it.

[animewatcha]

If doing level buyoff, might as well toss bloodline level buyoff in there too.

[Doctor Despair]

You can get an artificer to use some transfusions to change the type of buff on a few +6 items of dex boosting from enhancement to like luck, insight, etc. That'd give you an extra 18 dex, or an effective +9 for a few minutes. The enhancement bonus from an item can actually be like +30 pre-epic, though I'm not sure about the WBL pre-epic affording it. You can pay a bard to follow you around and inspire competence with Words of Creation and all which gives a +4 -- that can save you the dip into marshal and possibly increase the bonus anyway since a bard will likely have more like 30 charisma at that level.

If you don't want anyone else to help and the +30 is too expensive... Bloodlines and the Contact can increase your max skill ranks by +4 in total, which we can double because of Item Familiar. Being a Poison Dusk Lizardfolk gives +2 to dex, but -2 to charisma, which balances out, and a racial +4 to balance. The Insectile template brings us to LA+3 with the lizardfolk, but gives a +4 to dex again as well as tremorsense, which is cool. You could get a masterwork tool of balance for an additional +2. You didn't count the +4 from Exemplar's Skill Artistry, which is useful. You can also get an item that grants a competence bonus (in the same way you buy an item that has an enhancement bonus) to a skill for the remaining +6, or if you want to spend the money, as much as up to +44 pre-epic.

[noob]

I believe you can do the artificier trick with items of +10 balance too.
Make 10 items of +10 bonus to balance and make them have 10 different kind of bonuses.
It costs 100,000 which is half the WBL.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The Acrobat Boots soulmeld gives you an Insight bonus. With sufficient available Essence you could probably get a +14 bonus out of them (+2 base, +2*essentia investment. Which, in turn, is 3 base, +1 for Expanded Capacity, +1 for the Incarnate 3 class feature, and +1 for an Incarnum Focus item).

[Dromuthra]

There is also the agile feat for another plus 2
Uh greater heroism for +4
Also isn't there a feat that let's you break the skill point cap?

I'd rather not take a feat that's quite THAT bad, but thanks for the suggestion.

Primary Contact from Cityscape gives you 1 skill rank and can break the cap. It has a prerequisite feat of Favored which gives you a +2 competence bonus to an organization's skill.


It could theoretically be used in a build for early access to something, but I've never seen anyone use it.

Magical items provide Competence Bonuses, so those won't stack with each other, and I'd rather have the +24/25ish. The feat looks interesting, but at one feat for a +2 I'm not super enticed. Might have to take it though.

If doing level buyoff, might as well toss bloodline level buyoff in there too.

Good call! Another +3 (doubled to +6) added in there.

You can get an artificer to use some transfusions to change the type of buff on a few +6 items of dex boosting from enhancement to like luck, insight, etc. That'd give you an extra 18 dex, or an effective +9 for a few minutes. The enhancement bonus from an item can actually be like +30 pre-epic, though I'm not sure about the WBL pre-epic affording it. You can pay a bard to follow you around and inspire competence with Words of Creation and all which gives a +4 -- that can save you the dip into marshal and possibly increase the bonus anyway since a bard will likely have more like 30 charisma at that level.

If you don't want anyone else to help and the +30 is too expensive... Bloodlines and the Contact can increase your max skill ranks by +4 in total, which we can double because of Item Familiar. Being a Poison Dusk Lizardfolk gives +2 to dex, but -2 to charisma, which balances out, and a racial +4 to balance. The Insectile template brings us to LA+3 with the lizardfolk, but gives a +4 to dex again as well as tremorsense, which is cool. You could get a masterwork tool of balance for an additional +2. You didn't count the +4 from Exemplar's Skill Artistry, which is useful. You can also get an item that grants a competence bonus (in the same way you buy an item that has an enhancement bonus) to a skill for the remaining +6, or if you want to spend the money, as much as up to +44 pre-epic.

Hmmm, interesting. Skill Artistry isn't counted because it's a competence bonus again, and to my knowledge those don't stack. Not sure how you're planning on stacking other competence bonuses, but the masterwork tool is a good idea!

I believe you can do the artificier trick with items of +10 balance too.
Make 10 items of +10 bonus to balance and make them have 10 different kind of bonuses.
It costs 100,000 which is half the WBL.

I wasn't aware that you could get different types of bonuses made; in the DMG you can only have competence bonuses on items when making custom ones. Was that later changed?


The Acrobat Boots soulmeld gives you an Insight bonus. With sufficient available Essence you could probably get a +14 bonus out of them (+2 base, +2*essentia investment. Which, in turn, is 3 base, +1 for Expanded Capacity, +1 for the Incarnate 3 class feature, and +1 for an Incarnum Focus item).

I looked at the boots; I was hoping to not have to take class levels but it's kinda looking like that might be necessary.

Update:
Bloodline Levels: +3
Skill Ranks: +18
Masterwork Tool: +2
Item Familiar: +21
Dex Bonus: ~+8
Cha Bonus (Marshal): +10
Tumble Synergy: +2
Skill Focus: +3
Item of +30 (90,000 gp): +30
Exemplar take 10: +10

Total: 107

If I do 3 levels of Incarnate with an Incarnum Focus Item and the Extra Incarnum feat,
5 Essentia = +12 bonus

Then the total hits 119. Pumping either my Dex or Charisma by another 2 would to it.

Alternatively, if having 10 items of different bonus types works, I'd much rather do that - but thanks for the help everyone!

[ATHATH]

You could also just get a Wand or a Minor Schema of Air Walk.

[Dromuthra]

Yeah, I realize at this point that using magic items is a far superior method, but eventually I just wanted to figure out of it was even possible. I couldn't solve the thought problem satisfactorily on my own, so I thought I'd come to the playground for help.

But yeah, that minor schema is much more reasonable. :smalltongue:

[Godskook]

Acrobat boots are -not- the best way to get +insight via magic of incarnum. The best way is to take the feat "Open Least Chakra(feet)", and bind an item to your feet slot, yielding a +1+2x insight bonus to your balance check. The spell soul boon gives you enough essentia to power the bound item too. So that's +7@lvl15

Well, ok, if you're willing to devote class levels, you can get higher bonuses from Acrobat boots via the feat "Expanded Soulmeld Capacity", and Incarnate level 3 will yield another bump to Acrobat boots, giving it a +3 advanage on binding an item. So that's +10@lvl15

[Grod_The_Giant]

Acrobat boots are -not- the best way to get +insight via magic of incarnum. The best way is to take the feat "Open Least Chakra(feet)", and bind an item to your feet slot, yielding a +1+2x insight bonus to your balance check. The spell soul boon gives you enough essentia to power the bound item too. So that's +7@lvl15

Well, ok, if you're willing to devote class levels, you can get higher bonuses from Acrobat boots via the feat "Expanded Soulmeld Capacity", and Incarnate level 3 will yield another bump to Acrobat boots, giving it a +3 advanage on binding an item. So that's +10@lvl15
Did you read my analysis? Acrobat Boots are a 2+2x bonus, which starts off putting them ahead. Being able to use three capacity boosters lets you just about double that.

[atemu1234]

Wasn't there a spell or something, Divine Insight IIRC? +20, if I recall.

[Necroticplague]

Wasn't there a spell or something, Divine Insight IIRC? +20, if I recall.

Divine Insight: scaling insight bonus to a skill, maxes at +15.

You're probably thinking of the similar but more well known Guidance of the Avatar, which is a flat +20 competence bonus.

[Godskook]

Did you read my analysis? Acrobat Boots are a 2+2x bonus, which starts off putting them ahead. Being able to use three capacity boosters lets you just about double that.

Actually, I just read more into the item option than I should've(I thought it was giving the same base 2+2x bonus, and then forgot to add the 2 to either the item or the soulmeld while typing out my reply). Upon re-reading it turns out there's no scaling component for the item method, making it grossly inferior, and my error.

Also, afaik, you can only access 2 capacity boosters without a massive investment into Incarnate, which the OP said he was unwilling to do. I'm not even sure he's willing to invest into the 3 levels needed for the 2nd boost.

[atemu1234]

Divine Insight: scaling insight bonus to a skill, maxes at +15.

You're probably thinking of the similar but more well known Guidance of the Avatar, which is a flat +20 competence bonus.

What level spell are either/both?

[Necroticplague]

What level spell are either/both?

Both of them are Cleric 2, though Divine Insight is also Paladin 2.

[atemu1234]

Both of them are Cleric 2, though Divine Insight is also Paladin 2.

So for the flat 20... 2 x 5 x 4 x 2000 80,000 gp? For use activated.