Playing alignments outside of Chaotic Neutral

[Zhentarim]

The lawful alignments in pathfinder are pretty unfathamable to me. What are they, exactly, and why would a character purposefully restrict themselves with principles and limitations when they could do what they want and protect their own autonomy (Chaotic Neutral), or, if they are more idealistic and well-connected, try to promote maximum freedom in society by helping those down on their luck while seeking to introduce freedom for all--so long as that freedom harms nobody else (Chaotic Good)? I could also see a sadist going Chaotic Evil, but it seems like that would backfire since everybody this character came into contact with would want to punish them and remove their freedom (too risky...).

Ethical neutrals may be cowed into submission by the radical dogmatist who are usually in power, but, aside from Lawful Evil milking the system to get what they want, what draws some characters to be lawful? I cannot wrap my head around it no matter how much reading I do.

[GrayDeath]

The Same people irl have from following the rules: Security, dependability, a "good reputation for ones word", and of courser a more secure powerbase than when you only "Pillage and Burn".

Oppression helps a lot, at times. ^^

[Florian]

The lawful alignments in pathfinder are pretty unfathamable to me. What are they, exactly, and why would a character purposefully restrict themselves with principles and limitations when they could do what they want and protect their own autonomy (Chaotic Neutral), or, if they are more idealistic and well-connected, try to promote maximum freedom in society by helping those down on their luck while seeking to introduce freedom for all--so long as that freedom harms nobody else (Chaotic Good)? I could also see a sadist going Chaotic Evil, but it seems like that would backfire since everybody this character came into contact with would want to punish them and remove their freedom (too risky...).

Ethical neutrals may be cowed into submission by the radical dogmatist who are usually in power, but, aside from Lawful Evil milking the system to get what they want, what draws some characters to be lawful? I cannot wrap my head around it no matter how much reading I do.

The "L"-axis promotes society and culture as a whole as far more important than the individual and sees a direct connection between the individual working for the society and society giving back in equal measures.

Watchwords here are brotherhood, fraternity, family, commonwealth, group effort, shared wealth, and so on.

What "L" does not mean is you following laws and rules like a mindless robot. It also does not mean forfeiting personal freedom. It´s just you understanding that you have to contribute if you want something back in egal measure.

(The "C"-guys are those jerks that think they can run around doing their antics, all the while not seeing that they celebrate their "freedom" on the back of those people who hold society up)

[THEChanger]

Keep in mind also that Alignment is not prescriptive - it isn't something you choose, and then it puts a cage around your character with pointy looking spikes, heavy locks, and signs saying "DO NOT CROSS THIS LINE". Alignment is descriptive. It is a two letter label that describes the sort of person your character is, the general way in which they act. And if your character starts to change the general way they act, that two letter label changes. If a person consistently keeps their word, honors obligations and chains of command, follows the rule of law and focuses on what is best for their community? That person gets an L at the front of their two letter label. If that same person, after adventuring for awhile, starts to come to a realization that, y'know what, it is really a lot easier to just do what I want, rather than having to listen to all these commanders and generals and laws because all this red tape just gets in the way, if they start to care less about fulfilling promises they have made, and become a little more focused on what is best for themselves? That L might change to an N, or even a C.

The point being that Lawful Alignments aren't any more restrictive than Chaotic ones, because Alignment is inherently non-restrictive unless you're playing a class that interacts with it, like a Cleric, Paladin, or Blackguard. You play your character, and Alignment follows what that character does.

If you're asking why a person would play a character that would act in such a way as to receive the label of a Lawful Alignment...well, that is a much more complicated, philosophical question, and I don't have a good answer for it other than 'because that person thinks its fun'.

I personally play characters who act in a Lawful fashion, when I do, for the struggle. Because there is a code, a set of rules that defines what things are right and what things are wrong, a code which cannot be negotiated with. And then you take a person who follows that code, and you throw them into a world that very much doesn't, and you watch what they do. You see how they negotiate with the world, desperately clinging to the rules that define them, or crushing the world beneath their fist until the world follows the same code they do. And sometimes they succeed, and sometimes they fail, or fall. But that struggle, the act of looking at the way the world is and saying "No, that is not how it should be", that is very interesting to me.

[GreyBlack]

Keep in mind also that Alignment is not prescriptive - it isn't something you choose, and then it puts a cage around your character with pointy looking spikes, heavy locks, and signs saying "DO NOT CROSS THIS LINE".

Unless you're a paladin. Then it is.

To the OP, though, what you see as "limitation" isn't necessarily the case. Lawful is not restriction of personal autonomy. I've played Lawful Good characters who fought battles against usurper kings, believing them to be illegitimate authority and bad for my people. Lawful Neutral characters who adhered to a specific code specifically to release themselves from the madness of the world. Lawful Evil who, while respecting the law in name only, did horrible things only to advance their own personal motives.

By comparison, let's look at the Chaotic side: How about the Chaotic Good character, the Barbarian who tries to do good but ultimately cannot reign in his interior aggression in a necessary moment (e.g. a powerful wizard insulted him), only because he doesn't want to? The Chaotic Neutral character who acts like the two-year old and is ruled by his id rather than paying any attention to the superego? Chaotic Evil who pointlessly destroys to sate their own, ultimately self-destructive, desires

You look at the Lawful alignment as shackles. I'd like to pose to you that both ends of the Law-Chaos axis can be shackles if played that way. Alignment is a tool, not a way of life.

[Sayt]

THEchanger has the right of it when he points out that alignment is descriptive, not prescriptive.

Lawful characters don't choose to shackle themselves, they have a perspective which tends not to emphasize individuality, which has an affinity for stability and order.

Lawful good characters are so because they believe that there is a set of laws/rules/codes/etc which are beneficial to the general welfare (don't run signs at pools, social and legal restrictions against theft, duties to help others, etc), and that unconstrained anarchy can be dangerous.

Lawful Neutal characters (tend to) see the Law (the metaphilosphical concept, rather than specific rules) as The Ideal, rather than freedom. They take comfort in stability and reliability.

[Zhentarim]

Keep in mind also that Alignment is not prescriptive - it isn't something you choose, and then it puts a cage around your character with pointy looking spikes, heavy locks, and signs saying "DO NOT CROSS THIS LINE". Alignment is descriptive. It is a two letter label that describes the sort of person your character is, the general way in which they act. And if your character starts to change the general way they act, that two letter label changes. If a person consistently keeps their word, honors obligations and chains of command, follows the rule of law and focuses on what is best for their community? That person gets an L at the front of their two letter label. If that same person, after adventuring for awhile, starts to come to a realization that, y'know what, it is really a lot easier to just do what I want, rather than having to listen to all these commanders and generals and laws because all this red tape just gets in the way, if they start to care less about fulfilling promises they have made, and become a little more focused on what is best for themselves? That L might change to an N, or even a C.

The point being that Lawful Alignments aren't any more restrictive than Chaotic ones, because Alignment is inherently non-restrictive unless you're playing a class that interacts with it, like a Cleric, Paladin, or Blackguard. You play your character, and Alignment follows what that character does.

If you're asking why a person would play a character that would act in such a way as to receive the label of a Lawful Alignment...well, that is a much more complicated, philosophical question, and I don't have a good answer for it other than 'because that person thinks its fun'.

I personally play characters who act in a Lawful fashion, when I do, for the struggle. Because there is a code, a set of rules that defines what things are right and what things are wrong, a code which cannot be negotiated with. And then you take a person who follows that code, and you throw them into a world that very much doesn't, and you watch what they do. You see how they negotiate with the world, desperately clinging to the rules that define them, or crushing the world beneath their fist until the world follows the same code they do. And sometimes they succeed, and sometimes they fail, or fall. But that struggle, the act of looking at the way the world is and saying "No, that is not how it should be", that is very interesting to me.

you make it sound fun

[Occasional Sage]

Keep in mind also that Alignment is not prescriptive - it isn't something you choose, and then it puts a cage around your character with pointy looking spikes, heavy locks, and signs saying "DO NOT CROSS THIS LINE".



Unless you're a paladin. Then it is.


Um, you know this is the 5e forum, not 3.5? Paladins have no particular alignment requirements; you must simply aspire to an ideal of behavior. Even succeeding isn't a class requirement.


you make it sound fun

It is. I'm currently playing a LG dwarven wizard/collegiate arcanist (tinkered to be cleric rather than druid), who not-inaccurately describes his his spells as blessings and is an ordained priest (though not a cleric). He is loads of fun to play: righteous and uptight but brave, resourceful, and selfless.

[Kurald Galain]

The lawful alignments in pathfinder are pretty unfathamable to me.

Ok, take a look at your favorite comic strip.

Roy is lawful, as are Durkon, Celia and Eugene. Redcloak is also lawful. Tarquin is lawful, as are Malack and Kilkil and Qarr. Enough examples for you?

[GreyBlack]

Um, you know this is the 5e forum, not 3.5? Paladins have no particular alignment requirements; you must simply aspire to an ideal of behavior. Even succeeding isn't a class requirement.

Actually, this is the 3.5 forum. At least according to the forum subheading.

[Prime32]

I keep hearing that some of the writers at Paizo consider lawful characters to be bad role models for the readers, and go out of their way to write Pathfinder's lawful NPCs as misguided or villainous. That might explain a few things.


you make it sound fun
Basically?

Chaotic Good is the ability to do good when the rules don't want you to.

Lawful Good is the ability to do good when you don't want to. (http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/af15.jpg) (Avatar Aang would be another good example)

[Occasional Sage]

Actually, this is the 3.5 forum. At least according to the forum subheading.

Erm. So it is. aheh. Go on, citizen, nothing to see here.

[AvatarVecna]

When people have the freedom to choose, some of them will inevitably choose to do stupid or evil things with that freedom; the former is annoying, while the latter is actually dangerous. Lawful people, in general, are people who look at rules as something that protects people from the stupid/evil decisions they or others would make, if given the choice. It sucks, but they consider keeping people safe more important than letting them choose their own fate; it's for their own good that choices are made for them instead of by them...of course, the line between LG and LE is whether you support such a safety-focused mindset for your own benefit or for the benefit of others. How exactly your Lawful-ness manifests varies from character to character. Some are law-abiders who believe in true justice, while others might be willing to break the law but believe traditions and social mores are absolute lines that should never be crossed, while still others might hold up particular values as important. The police officer, the old-fashioned priest, the union rep with the heart of gold, all can be Lawful Good...or Lawful Evil. It all depends on whether they're using the law to protect others from the wickedness of the world, or using the law to create more such wickedness.

Of course, maybe your Lawful is different from that. It's whatever. Chaotic Neutral for the win!!!!!!

[Anlashok]

I keep hearing that some of the writers at Paizo consider lawful characters to be bad role models for the readers, and go out of their way to write Pathfinder's lawful NPCs as misguided or villainous. That might explain a few things.

Most of them aren't even very lawful. Seriously pretty much every devil in Golarion fiction could have their name changed and that LE swapped out for an NE or CE and no one would even notice.

then Inevitables are more or less insane jerks and basically nothing else and most Archons have a strong "the only reason they're good is that they say they are" vibe to them.


More on topic:

Pros for being Lawful
-Honor and reliability means people can actually trust you and rely on you, good for your reputation
-Organization and structure is a massive force multiplier

Pros for being Evil
-You only need to look out for yourself (and maybe your immediate inner circle)
-You've got a greater ability to be pragmatic without the moral compunctions of good or neutrality

Pros for being Good
-Some of the spells and feats are pretty good.
-I dunno, helping people is also good for your reputation? People like heroes.

[ATHATH]

I personally can't comprehend the CN alignment. To me, one has to have a reason to break the rules. Either you break them for the greater good/the sake of freedom (CG) or you break them for selfish reasons (CE)- I just can't see a middle ground (except for extraplanar entities, but they tend to be irrational).

[THEChanger]

Unless you're a paladin. Then it is.

My friend, have you ever Fallen? Mechanically, awful choice. Otherwise?

Best. Story. Ever.


you make it sound fun

Oh, it can be. Depends on the kind of game you're playing, of course. If it's just a quick, kill-everything-that-moves-and-take-its-stuff style game, exploring the intricacies of what it means to believe in rules might not be in the best interests of the players. For that kind of game, it may indeed be more advantageous to follow a Chaotic philosophy and say, ahem, "Screw the rules I have money/a big stick/hands that alter laws of physics". Always consider your group and gaming style when making characters, kiddos.



Pros for being Good
-Some of the spells and feats are pretty good.
-I dunno, helping people is also good for your reputation? People like heroes.

For my money, the benefit of being Good is one part reputation, yes, but to risk sounding naive, one part the Power of Friendship. When you're Good, and follow through on doing Good things, you build bonds with people. Real, hardcore, "I will follow this person to Hell and back" bonds. Being Good means knowing that, on balance, the world has your back. The world, and the people in it, want you to succeed, because when you act in accordance with Good, you're doing the thing that is best for the world. Even Evil people will often root for the Good guy, because to misquote somebody, the world is where they keep their stuff, and the Good one is making sure the world is a safe and stable place to have one's stuff. And yes, an Evil person can deceive people, doing Good acts to build that kind of devotion and rapport with people. But in D&D, one's actions forms the better part of Alignment, so someone who consistently performs Good acts will start to move towards Good. Do things a certain way long enough, that impacts your thinking. The more Good acts you do, the more you become a person who does Good acts. Until suddenly, you die and you're standing in front of the pearly gates of Celestia wondering "Asmodeus, where did it all go wrong?"

[GreyBlack]

My friend, have you ever Fallen? Mechanically, awful choice. Otherwise?

Best. Story. Ever.



Actually, full disclosure? One of my favorite characters ever was a Paladin/Blackguard/Shadowbane Inquisitor. The entire arc I took him through was amazing going from LG, to LE (trying to save his people, a la Arthas Menethil), then coming back to LG when I realized what was happening and devoting the character's life to hunting down the darkness. It was epic.