Least Favorite Member of the Order

[Mister Loorg]

Because Rich doesn't get enough criticism, let's all talk about our least favorite member of the Order of the Stick. Because we all know that "worst" lists are much more fun to read than "best" lists.

For me, my least favorite character would have to be Haley. Though it is less of choosing a "worst" as it is choosing a "least best." I personally found most of Haley's plot arcs to be rather boring, with the exception of her arc about bringing Roy back to life (It's pretty hard to find good reasons for not liking her, as the comic is just that good in general).

So what's your least favorite character?

[RatElemental]

If you had asked before he started being so awesome, I'd have said Blackwing. And if his normal form wasn't a friggin' dinosaur, I'd have said Bloodfeast the Extreme-inator.

But I'm going to have to go with Yukyuk (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html).

Those all count, right? :smallbiggrin:

[Euclidodese]

From fave to worst:

1) Belkar
2) Elan
- 2.5) Blackwing
3) V
- 3.5) Mr Scruffy
4) Roy
5) Haley
6) Durkon

I'm not saying Durkon is a poorly written character, he's not, he's just playing a role I don't tend to feel much connection to in fiction, and him not being overly cool or funny like Xykon, or 'The One Man Ratings Spike' Mr Belkar Bitterleaf, I'd really need to empathize with him in order to favour him.

I can't empathize with Durkon, because he's very lawful, he puts his faith in a God, etc. etc. He makes decisions that are so wildly different from the ones I would make that I find it hard to see things from his perspective, or to feel sorry for him when those decisions come back and bite him on the patoot.
I mean... Letting Miko take the order off in chains to be executed!? I would never do that!

[factotum]

See, my least favourite member of the Order is Belkar, because he's an amoral little psychopath who gets given too much of a free ride on the forums because he occasionally says something funny. That's hardly a criticism of the Giant, though, because Belkar is intentionally written that way and the fact he inspires such strong feelings in the reader is a testament to the Giant's skill!

If the question is, "Which do you believe is the least interesting member of the Order?", then I don't really have an answer--before the latest happenings it would have been Durkon, but that's clearly not the case anymore, and all the Order have had their chances to shine (including Haley, with the Azure City resistance and the battle in the thieves' guild).

[PoeticDwarf]

I go for Roy, he is just a little bit boring classic leader. I really like the role of Durkon, Belkar and Haley are really well written, Elan is just funny and I just , and both Vaarsuvius and Roy are for me somewhat worse than the others. Vaarsuvius still has a fantastic familiar so yeah, I'll go Roy.

But of course, they are all fantastic

[Heksefatter]

Hmmm, the character I like the least? It would be Durkon, I think. He's too bland for me. And I've never really found the exploration of his baground we see now, all that interesting. Nor Durkula. He is quite bland as well...yes, his plot is horrifying, but he never really struck a chord with me. He is not as funny as Xykon, nor is there a sympathetic angle to him, as there is with Redcloak.

[Laurana]

I like them all, but my least favorite is Roy.

From least favorite to favorite:

6) Roy
5) Durkon

(void, to emphasize that I totally love all the others)

4) Elan
3) Vaarsuvius
2) Belkar
1) Haley

[Sir_Norbert]

Belkar. Certainly, his presence makes the story more interesting, because he brings in conflict within the Order, yet they can't get rid of him, not least because he is genuinely useful to them. He has some great moments, like when he came back to tell Roy about Durkon's death. But overall, I find him far more discomforting than funny.

[DaggerPen]

This is a tough one. I'm going to have to go with Durkon, I guess - while it's cool to see him getting some development now, he just still doesn't yet have the depth the others have.

[An Enemy Spy]

Roy, because he's forced to always play the role of straight man to all the other members, which doesn't give him much room to stand out as anything but the leader.

[ChristianSt]

Mh. hard to tell. My initial gut reaction was a close call between Durkon and Vaarsuvius. Currently I'm in the mood to give Durkon the "honor" to win my least favourite spot.

Interestingly I hunted down the over 2 years old Favourite PC Tournament (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?315821-Favourite-PC-Tournament) and found myself posting this order:


1: :belkar:
2: :elan:
3: :haley:
4: :vaarsuvius:
5: :durkon:
6: :roy:


I didn't even think to assigning that slot to Roy today and would rank him in position 4 today.

[Ruck]

With the caveat that I love them all, Durkon would probably be my least favorite in reality, because I take a dim view of overly-lawful types (and when it comes to Lawful Good, that especially applies to people who have shown they'll put Law before Good).

IRL my personality is probably closer to somewhere between Elan and Haley. Belkar and Vaarsuvius being the two non-Good members of the Order often makes them more inherently interesting by the possibilities raised for out-of-bounds behavior and internecine conflict. More importantly, it gives them longer and more complicated roads for redemption, which I have found fascinating so far (and have high hopes for how those stories will play out over the rest of the series).

Of the two Lawful Good characters, I relate to Roy's leadership/sense of responsibility and deadpan sarcasm much more than Durkon's unwavering sense of traditional duty.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Durkon, because up until the start of this book, he was just plain fricking boring. The kind of guy you keep getting surprised that he's still around, because he might as well be a pattern on the wallpaper.

[Belksworth]

From fave to worst:

1) Belkar
2) Elan
- 2.5) Blackwing
3) V
- 3.5) Mr Scruffy
4) Roy
5) Haley
6) Durkon

I'm not saying Durkon is a poorly written character, he's not, he's just playing a role I don't tend to feel much connection to in fiction, and him not being overly cool or funny like Xykon, or 'The One Man Ratings Spike' Mr Belkar Bitterleaf, I'd really need to empathize with him in order to favour him.

I can't empathize with Durkon, because he's very lawful, he puts his faith in a God, etc. etc. He makes decisions that are so wildly different from the ones I would make that I find it hard to see things from his perspective, or to feel sorry for him when those decisions come back and bite him on the patoot.
I mean... Letting Miko take the order off in chains to be executed!? I would never do that!

Same list exactly for me.

[Emanick]

I really like all the characters, honestly. If I had to pick someone as my least favorite, it might be Haley. That's probably partly because when I started reading nine years ago (whoa), at age 13, I was honestly pretty sexist, and I didn't really respect her - although I am obviously not the same dumb middle schooler I used to be, the aftereffects of my original attitude towards her still exist. It's probably mostly because I don't relate to her terribly well, though; I'm pretty much the opposite of her when it comes to trust and "hiding," among other things.

There's also the fact that Haley is also much better written than she used to be, IMO. I wouldn't have too much respect for DCF-era Haley if that book was all I'd ever read of OOTS, but since then she's become one of the most awesome characters in the strip.

[ChillerInstinct]

Going to preface this by saying that there's really no character currently in the Order that I DISLIKE. Just some I like more than others. :P

It's amazing what a little bit of character development will do. Earlier in the comic's life, it would have been Elan, back when he was pretty much the definition of Too Stupid to Live. He got better for a bit after Cliffport, then took a dive around the time Therkla came around. But in the time since Therkla died in DStP, he's gotten SO much better in that regard, especially toward the end of BRitF. Now, he's one of my favourites.

And really, that's a bit of a trend across the board. Most of the books have, to some extent or another, advanced one character in particular. Emanick mentioned DCF-Haley, and I agree, including the part where she's gotten SO much better, starting around the start of War and XPs. V was too haughty for my tastes, until the end of DStP which was a real breath of fresh air for the character. While I always liked Belkar due to him being pretty much pure comic relief in a way that Elan couldn't quite muster, he got better around the same time as V, thanks to the Mark of Justice sequence. I fully expect this arc will do wonders for Durkon, too.

So I guess that leaves one, huh? Process of elimination says Roy's my least favourite, I guess. Then again I suppose the leader of a group rarely outshines his team, eh? :P

[Gift Jeraff]

Vaarsuvius because he's a mass murderer.

[Ron Miel]

Least favourite member= Roy's sword, the seventh member (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0296.html).

[ghoul-n]

Belkar, followed closely by Durkon.

It all boils down to how do you view the comic in it's entirety, really. If you are in for some epic fantasy, Haley's girlish stuff and Roy's social awkwardness and family issues will bore you. If you are in for some realism (duh), you'll be puzzled by over-the-topness of Belkster, Lawful Stupidity of some supposedly Good characters etc.

Personally I think Haley's arc (and it's blend with an actual fantasy setting, i.e. her father is a criminal and people are fine with that), her self-discovery and learning to express herself is one of the best thing in the comic, far more meaningful and impactful than any combat sequence or, Twelve Gods forbid, world's end scenario. Just my opinion, of course.

[Gruffe]

For me it's definitely Belkar.

Don't get me wrong, he's funny and has great lines, but I just despise the person he is. He gets away with too much, he's too vile and I never find my self rooting for him.

Heck, when he kept on trying to kill HPoH, I didn't care that he was right about him not really being Durkon, I actually preferred to see him be ignored and brushed off by the other members.

I'm not really sure if I would miss him if he actually gets killed off. I believe that if he was to die sacrificing himself to destroy the HPoH I still think he would deserve to go to the Chaotic or neutral evil afterlife.

Now there are plenty of moments that I cheer or laugh from Belkar's actions, but out of the six primary members of the order, Belkar is my least favourite.

[littlebum2002]

Durkon, hands down. Prior to this storyline he simply had no personally, no character development, nothing unique at all. He might as well have been named "Dwarf Cleric #1"

Of course, that's not a criticism on rich, since he was written that way on purpose, but it still made him pretty dull.

[Vinyadan]

Least favourite member= Roy's sword, the seventh member (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0296.html).

In a certain sense, that's also the sixth member (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0308.html) in the Order. :smallwink:

[Quild]

From fave to worst:

1) Belkar
2) Elan
- 2.5) Blackwing
3) V
- 3.5) Mr Scruffy
4) Roy
5) Haley
6) Durkon

Works for me too. Roy and Haley are really close one to me though.
If we were to consider that fHPoH is to be considered with Durkon, then he would go in fourth position.
But I suppose we're not going to consider that.

[Laurana]

Works for me too. Roy and Haley are really close one to me though.
If we were to consider that fHPoH is to be considered with Durkon, then he would go in fourth position.
But I suppose we're not going to consider that.

Wait. You not only like the fHPoH, but you actually like it better than Durkon? :smallconfused:

[Murk]

This took much consideration, but I'll have to say Elan. Not sure why, but I came to the conclusion that leaving him out of scenes or arcs actually only makes the scene better, for me. Which is pretty definitive for not liking someone, I guess.

[Kralzen]

That would be Elan. I can see a bit of me in every character of the Order except Elan. Like most people is not that I don't like him is just that he is the one that least strikes a chord in me. His is funny but only Belkar makes me laugh, though I really like his story ark and character development, top 2 on the very least.

[Kish]

Vaarsuvius because he's a mass murderer.
This.

Then Belkar.

[Onyavar]

In my opinion, Roy talks too much lately. I mean, REALLY talks too much. He's talky talky talky man recently, and it's always deadly serious.

Maybe because Rich needs an in-comic outlet of what is going on?


That reduces Roy on my not-like list. If it's about comic relief: B, V+Bw, H, E, R, D. If it's about a well rounded character, they are all the same - top notch.

Still Roy's the guy I'd like to meet in person, followed by real Durkon and V. Elan is too goofy, Haley would rob me blind and Belkar would make me one less human the Azure City resistance needs to fight later.

[KorvinStarmast]

I find the premise of this thread to be strange.
Why dwell on the negative? There's plenty of that IRL, dragging it into something you enjoy seems a needless form of pollution.

[Hamste]

I would say Durkon even with the development of a backstory I just find him so bland.

Roy comes in second mostly because so much revolves around him. The main quest is his, he is significantly better statwise and fighting wise than most of the other pc and he gets several things handed to him on a silver platter (Belt of giant strength, side quest to make his sword better, a special feat only he can really learn and even a weapon of legacy (probably spent the feat on it but that isn't really the point)). Roy is too much of a chosen one for me to like his character that much. The backstory helps keep him above Durkon though.

Haley comes third mostly because of the earlier strips. If she was still like that she would probably have been below Roy but above Durkon. She is a lot better since then but she isn't beating out the others.

I like V but they just aren't as funny as Belkar or Elan so 4th.

Belkar is 2nd simply for being funny. Very little backstory however weakens his character significantly though that is probably kind of the point. The character development is interesting as well.

Elan is first not just because they are funny but also because they have the best defined backstory besides Roy. All in all they are just quite likeable.

So in list form my most favourite to least favourite I would go:
Elan
Belkar
V
Haley
Roy
Durkon.

[nyjastul69]

Heller Belkar is my least favorite character. That is not to say I dislike him though.

[maxon]

I like all of them and I'm not going to nominate a least-liked. However, I just want to say this - I LIKE Durkon. I think he's great. I guess I'm chaotic good myself but I can relate to him. He cracks me up at times too.

[ace rooster]

I'd probably go with Durkon, as he is the only character that hasn't really grown, or is even trying to.

Haley is learning to be more trusting, and take responsability.
Roy is learning to think like a rogue, and accept Elan's childish nature.
Elan is able to acknowledge his childish nature, and grow up when it is important.
V is finally discovering wisdom, and that it is different from intelligence (and bird shaped).
Belkar is developing genuine empathy, in classic anti-hero fashion.

I don't hold Belkar's murderous ways in more contempt than those of a cat. Being adorable and/or awesome is surprisingly effective for getting forgiveness for genocide to the local gnome/songbird population.

[Grey Watcher]

Psteve. He was totally a Marty Pstu and I was glad Rich killed him off relatively quickly.

[dps]

See, my least favourite member of the Order is Belkar, because he's an amoral little psychopath who gets given too much of a free ride on the forums because he occasionally says something funny. That's hardly a criticism of the Giant, though, because Belkar is intentionally written that way and the fact he inspires such strong feelings in the reader is a testament to the Giant's skill!




I think there is a big distinction between which member is one's least favorite character in the Order, and which member is one's least favorite person.

Belkar is a great character, but he's a horrible, horrible person. You wouldn't want to be around him IRL, and the fact that he might off you on a whim at any time wouldn't be the only reason. He'd not only be a mass murder, he's the type of mass murderer who make people who are opposed to the death penalty want to make an exception in his case.

Durkon is the opposite. IRL, he'd be an admirable person (though not necessarily someone you'd exactly like, because he'd be too stodgy and stiff for most people to want to just hang out with--though I guess Malack would disagree), but as a character, even with the recent character development, he's a bit bland.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Hmmm, I'd probably have to go with Elan. I love all the members of the Order, though, so it's not like there's any I really like less than the others.

[Dunsparce]

Psteve. He was totally a Marty Pstu and I was glad Rich killed him off relatively quickly.

I'm glad I'm not the only one to remember the 7th member of the Order of the Stick, Psteve the Psion. He lives on in that T-shirt you can get in the store(Actually he's dead on the shirt, too.)

[An Enemy Spy]

Who is Psteve? Is he from the Dragon comics?

[Emanick]

Heller is my least favorite character. That is not to say I dislike him though.

Who is Heller? I literally don't know who you're talking about.

[Lexible]

From fave to worst:

1) Belkar
2) Elan
- 2.5) Blackwing
3) V
- 3.5) Mr Scruffy
4) Roy
5) Haley
6) Durkon


Wow... we share exactly the same preference ordering (less than a 1/40k probability over random ordering)! Although it's a bit of a toss up between Roy and Haley for me.

[Bulldog Psion]

V. Can't stand the elf any longer.

(Haley's my favorite by a long chalk, Roy and Elan and probably tied for next, Belkar is funny at least, and Durkon is just sort of a bearded cipher with annoying lawfulness thrown in, but he's miles better than V.)

[goodpeople25]

Yukyuk for sure.

As for the main ones I can't really name a least favourite just like i can't name a most favourite. Just not something i was ever really able to do.

[Lexible]

I think there is a big distinction between which member is one's least favorite character in the Order, and which member is one's least favorite person.

Belkar is a great character, but he's a horrible, horrible person. You wouldn't want to be around him IRL, and the fact that he might off you on a whim at any time wouldn't be the only reason. He'd not only be a mass murder, he's the type of mass murderer who make people who are opposed to the death penalty want to make an exception in his case.

Durkon is the opposite. IRL, he'd be an admirable person (though not necessarily someone you'd exactly like, because he'd be too stodgy and stiff for most people to want to just hang out with--though I guess Malack would disagree), but as a character, even with the recent character development, he's a bit bland.

This.

My favorite people in the comic are definite not my favorite characters. I would say the people I most want to get with are (most to least):

Hayley
Elan
Roy
Mr. Scruffy
Blackwing
Vaarsuvius
Durkon
Belkar

[wumpus]

Vaarsuvius because he's a mass murderer.

Backs away slowly, wondering just how many Belkar has to murder to count as "mass"...
(I suspect V's count is higher, just that Belkar easily qualifies).

[Grey Watcher]

Backs away slowly, wondering just how many Belkar has to murder to count as "mass"...
(I suspect V's count is higher, just that Belkar easily qualifies).

I think the point is that V did a lot at once, while Belkar's more of a serial killer.

[ChillerInstinct]

I think there is a big distinction between which member is one's least favorite character in the Order, and which member is one's least favorite person.

Belkar is a great character, but he's a horrible, horrible person. You wouldn't want to be around him IRL, and the fact that he might off you on a whim at any time wouldn't be the only reason. He'd not only be a mass murder, he's the type of mass murderer who make people who are opposed to the death penalty want to make an exception in his case.

Durkon is the opposite. IRL, he'd be an admirable person (though not necessarily someone you'd exactly like, because he'd be too stodgy and stiff for most people to want to just hang out with--though I guess Malack would disagree), but as a character, even with the recent character development, he's a bit bland.

That's really an excellent point. In fact I think my list of characters from favourite/unfavourite is, if you changed around a couple positions (I mean, Belkar's not QUITE my favourite member of the Order but he's definitely the one I'd want to put as much difference between and myself as possible), roughly the inverse order from the list if it were people I'd get along with in real life.

I wonder if that's exactly WHY that's the case, too. While characters can often make the most impact if we can directly relate to them, it's a thin line between "one degree of separation" and "similar things repel each other". A character who cuts a bit too close to home might not be as likable as, say, a mass murdering psychopath whose antics are largely played for humour's sake.

Though I suppose escapism might also play a role in that, too...

[nyjastul69]

Who is Heller? I literally don't know who you're talking about.

Nor do I. Who the hell is Heller! I dont know!

Thank you for pointing my phone's ability to auto-correct, and my lack of ability to check that. Somehow Belkar was changed to Heller. Dunno why.

[PoeticDwarf]

Like everyone has Durkon in place 5 or last :smalleek::smallfrown:

[acire]

As others have said, I don't hate any of the Order, but if I had to choose who I liked the least, then it would be Durkon. I prefer that Lawful Good characters choose Good over Law when the two come into conflict whenever possible, which is weird because I don't have moral expectations for characters of other alignments. Meh. The Durkula plot arc and the backstory that we've been exposed to in it have fleshed him out a bit, but he's still kind of bland to me.

I don't know that I could rank the others from most to least liked because they've all had their moments for me. There are things about their stories that I enjoy and/or relate to (I don't really relate to Belkar, but I enjoy his horrifying yet amusing-because-he's-fictional behavior). The only time that I really connected to Durkon was in OoTs #84.

[Felandria]

Wow, I figured this would have been V in a landslide.

V is just..... There. Most of the time.

[Ruck]

See, people say V is their least favorite because of Familicide, and I don't see it that way-- V is still a fascinating character, who expresses remorse and regret for hir actions, and is trying to atone as much as possible. A story of someone who's gone too far and tries to redeem themselves is far more interesting than someone who's already good all the time and has no need for growth.

Anyway, I've been thinking about a possible ending that allows V to find some redemption, and I couldn't think of a better place to post it. Admittedly, my knowledge of D&D mechanics is very limited, but I think in terms of the story, this could work.


If V gets 9th-level spells and learns Disjunction, V could possibly destroy Xykon's phylactery with it. Quoting relevant passage from the SRD:


All magical effects and magic items within the radius of the spell, except for those that you carry or touch, are disjoined. That is, spells and spell-like effects are separated into their individual components (ending the effect as a dispel magic spell does), and each permanent magic item must make a successful Will save or be turned into a normal item.

More importantly, let's say the phylactery counts as an Artifact, or that the magical defenses on it boost it to the same strength and difficulty to disjoin, or it's fudged some other way. (As far as I can tell, the phylactery wouldn't count as an artifact in D&D, but as the Giant often reminds us, this is not a game of Dungeons & Dragons.)

Here's the relevant passage about using disjunction on artifacts:


Even artifacts are subject to disjunction, though there is only a 1% chance per caster level of actually affecting such powerful items. Additionally, if an artifact is destroyed, you must make a DC 25 Will save or permanently lose all spellcasting abilities. (These abilities cannot be recovered by mortal magic, not even miracle or wish.)

Having spent a life pursuing Ultimate Arcane Power, and having done horrible things with it after having achieved it, Vaarsuvius decides to atone by making the sacrifice to voluntarily give up, or at least risk giving up, arcane power forever (or at least one Elven lifetime, which is a pretty dang long time) in order to save the world.

I don't think this is the most likely route, but I think thematically it fits very nicely as the capper to a redemption arc-- sacrificing a lifetime's single-minded obsession (and the abuse thereof) to save the world.

[Emanick]

See, people say V is their least favorite because of Familicide, and I don't see it that way-- V is still a fascinating character, who expresses remorse and regret for hir actions, and is trying to atone as much as possible. A story of someone who's gone too far and tries to redeem themselves is far more interesting than someone who's already good all the time and has no need for growth.

Anyway, I've been thinking about a possible ending that allows V to find some redemption, and I couldn't think of a better place to post it. Admittedly, my knowledge of D&D mechanics is very limited, but I think in terms of the story, this could work.


If V gets 9th-level spells and learns Disjunction, V could possibly destroy Xykon's phylactery with it. Quoting relevant passage from the SRD:



More importantly, let's say the phylactery counts as an Artifact, or that the magical defenses on it boost it to the same strength and difficulty to disjoin, or it's fudged some other way. (As far as I can tell, the phylactery wouldn't count as an artifact in D&D, but as the Giant often reminds us, this is not a game of Dungeons & Dragons.)

Here's the relevant passage about using disjunction on artifacts:



Having spent a life pursuing Ultimate Arcane Power, and having done horrible things with it after having achieved it, Vaarsuvius decides to atone by making the sacrifice to voluntarily give up, or at least risk giving up, arcane power forever (or at least one Elven lifetime, which is a pretty dang long time) in order to save the world.

I don't think this is the most likely route, but I think thematically it fits very nicely as the capper to a redemption arc-- sacrificing a lifetime's single-minded obsession (and the abuse thereof) to save the world.

That ending for V has always struck me as a phenomenally fitting one - or rather, a slight modification of it, namely

V using Disjunction to destroy Redcloak's Crimson Mantle, an actual artifact

has. It even has the merit of being wholly legitimate within the rules. The only point I can think of that can be cited against it is that it's slightly predictable - several people have thought of it over the years, possibly including me (I can't remember anymore whether I thought of it or merely read it).

[Killer Angel]

I think there is a big distinction between which member is one's least favorite character in the Order, and which member is one's least favorite person.

Belkar is a great character, but he's a horrible, horrible person. You wouldn't want to be around him IRL,

Pretty much.
There's a reason why shows like Dexter, or Sopranos, have success.

[Bolton]

Belkar. And no, not because I'd dislike him as a real person (though I would, obviously), but because I find his character the least interesting, plus I don't think he is as funny as everybody else seemingly does. Of course, his role in the comic isn't to be neglected, since he provides a foil and, occasionally, someone interesting for the other characters to interact with. However, for me, most of the humor stems from the other characters' interactions or THEIR out of character behavior when paired up with Belkar. For example, when V and Belkar have their pranking war, what makes me laugh is V. As I said, you need Belkar for a situation like that to happen in the first place, but apart from thus setting up the joke, I don't see anything humorous coming from him. Obviously, that's a matter of personal taste, though. If you find stuff like the "Sexy shoeless god of war"-scene tremendously funny, go ahead. :smallsmile:

[Hamste]

As others have said, I don't hate any of the Order, but if I had to choose who I liked the least, then it would be Durkon. I prefer that Lawful Good characters choose Good over Law when the two come into conflict whenever possible, which is weird because I don't have moral expectations for characters of other alignments. Meh. The Durkula plot arc and the backstory that we've been exposed to in it have fleshed him out a bit, but he's still kind of bland to me.

I don't know that I could rank the others from most to least liked because they've all had their moments for me. There are things about their stories that I enjoy and/or relate to (I don't really relate to Belkar, but I enjoy his horrifying yet amusing-because-he's-fictional behavior). The only time that I really connected to Durkon was in OoTs #84.

Strange that was the time I felt least connected with him. He completely ignored that she just admitted to trying to poison her husband and instead focused on how she ran away from what she described as an abusive relationship (admittedly it wasn't from the strips we saw but Durkon probably didn't know that) she was forced to marry into (It was a crossbow marriage). Of the two things to lecture her on and break up over he chose her running away over attempted murder.

[Dunsparce]

Who is Psteve? Is he from the Dragon comics?

Yep. He was introduced as the newest member of the order of the stick and then died shortly thereafter from running out of Power Points(the source of a Psionic character's abilities) while fighting. He reappeared on a T-shirt about Psionics with Lauren and the Mindflayer from DCF. He was dead on that too.

[Haarkla]

Elan. He is too silly, and breaks the 4th wall far to often, but is not nearly as funny as Belkar.

[Ruck]

That ending for V has always struck me as a phenomenally fitting one - or rather, a slight modification of it, namely

V using Disjunction to destroy Redcloak's Crimson Mantle, an actual artifact

has. It even has the merit of being wholly legitimate within the rules. The only point I can think of that can be cited against it is that it's slightly predictable - several people have thought of it over the years, possibly including me (I can't remember anymore whether I thought of it or merely read it).

A-ha! That's a good point. Of course, as per the RAW,


Note: Destroying artifacts is a dangerous business, and it is 95% likely to attract the attention of some powerful being who has an interest in or connection with the device.

That is very likely to draw some unwanted attention from the Dark One, which may or may not involve V's life. As long as it doesn't involve hir family or soul, I suppose.
I don't know if predictable is a good or bad thing; Rich plots the story so well that the events logically progress from one another and are often foreshadowed, which means that in some cases they will be predictable, because his story-telling fundamentals are strong.

[Deprox]

Roy would be the one to me. Whiney Talky-man. I really don't like him, it's not a matter of being a "least favorite".

After him, the order, from least favorite to most favorite would be Elan, Durkon and Haley tied for 3rd, Belkar and, with a huge gap, V.

[Ornithologist]

Really, I want to like Durkon. I really do. His jokes are my favorite, but he just doesnt speak up enough.
The potential for book 6 of Durkon is like my favorite part.

[acire]

Strange that was the time I felt least connected with him. He completely ignored that she just admitted to trying to poison her husband and instead focused on how she ran away from what she described as an abusive relationship (admittedly it wasn't from the strips we saw but Durkon probably didn't know that) she was forced to marry into (It was a crossbow marriage). Of the two things to lecture her on and break up over he chose her running away over attempted murder.
Yikes. I think I failed to catch that because we saw the strips, so I kinda forgot that Durkon probably wasn't privy to the same information. Of course, that would make it even more ridiculous to zero in on "freedom-loving adulterer"'over "attempted murderer" for a breakup motivation. That's rather unfortunate. I feel less sad for him now, which just drives him further into the "least liked character" slot.

[Knewred]

I'm not really a huge fan of Haley myself. It's not that I don't like her, because I do, but I've never really had much of a desire to see more of her. She just seems to sort of be there, and none of her arcs seem particularly interesting to me. That's probably just personal preference though, and I certainly won't try to convince anyone not to like her. From best to worst, I'd probably look something like this:

1) Vaarsuvius
2) Belkar
3) Roy
4) Elan
5) Durkon
6) Haley

I like them all, though. I wouldn't want to see any of them written out of the story.

[Mad Humanist]

Yikes. I think I failed to catch that because we saw the strips, so I kinda forgot that Durkon probably wasn't privy to the same information. Of course, that would make it even more ridiculous to zero in on "freedom-loving adulterer"'over "attempted murderer" for a breakup motivation. That's rather unfortunate. I feel less sad for him now, which just drives him further into the "least liked character" slot.

I cannot dislike Durkon for having an unyielding sense of morality. When I was about six I was convinced it was totally immoral to colour in a dot-to-dot puzzle after you had joined the dots. Dot-to-dot puzzles had one purpose and were not to be teleologically abused.

I like all of the order and it would be hard if not impossible for me to put them in any sort of order.

[Liquor Box]

Elan would probably be my least favorite. He does get some funny jokes though, like when he took his clothes off to be invisible.

[Auburn Bright]

For me it's gotta be Belkar.

Not because I think he's a bad character. He's not! But the rest of the Order have some really human flaw or struggle that I can relate to and want to see them overcome. Belkar's easily the funniest but I've never felt that type of connection to him.

Also, he's not my fave, but I really like Durkon. I wish he got more focus so we could get a more nuanced picture of him, but I don't think that's a problem with the character per se.

[Vinyadan]

To me, it changes over time. The problem is, I like characters who do stuff more than characters who think about what they have done. So, to me, V having his asides with Blackwing was the least likeable character. I also am not a big fan of character change when it's too strongly emphasized, to the point of overcoming action.

That's why my favourite character is Miko: she is so bound on movement, she end up doing all the dumbest things in a way that moves the plot and is coherent to her character. Plus, I like strongly polarized characters (in literature. IRL I'd call the cops.)

[LuisDantas]

So what's your least favorite character?

Belkar all the way, hands down.

[Sheba]

I think there is a big distinction between which member is one's least favorite character in the Order, and which member is one's least favorite person.

Belkar is a great character, but he's a horrible, horrible person. You wouldn't want to be around him IRL, and the fact that he might off you on a whim at any time wouldn't be the only reason. He'd not only be a mass murder, he's the type of mass murderer who make people who are opposed to the death penalty want to make an exception in his case.

Durkon is the opposite. IRL, he'd be an admirable person (though not necessarily someone you'd exactly like, because he'd be too stodgy and stiff for most people to want to just hang out with--though I guess Malack would disagree), but as a character, even with the recent character development, he's a bit bland.
Strangely, while I agree with the statement in general here, I just cannot apply it to Belkar. He's by far my least favourite character not only in the Order, but also in the whole comic. And that's not because he's a horrible person. He is, but hey, my very favourite character in the comic is Malack and he's also really far from being a good person. Belkar does get character development, yes, but I just fail to be able to see him as a great character because to me he gets away with way too much when it comes to the consequences of his actions. The recent fall from the mountain demonstrated that again. He didn't even get a scratch. But it happened before as well - one of the biggest letdowns was comic #570 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0570.html) for me. But this of course might also be my very subjective opinion since I just dislike Belkar that much.

I actually really enjoy Durkon, though - maybe because he's the character I relate with the most. He's not my favourite, though, because I agree he's a bit bland. I actually find it difficult to really make a list because none of the Order-characters rank very high in my favourite characters list when it comes to the whole comic. I find myself liking most of them in certain plots far more than in others and it's pretty inconsistent, which is rare for me. For example, I really disliked Haley for the whole arc when Roy was dead, but really liked how she in the end handled Crystal and killed her for good. Sometimes I think Elan is awesome and funny and sometimes I think he's just acting like a moron. I liked V in the beginning, hated them after Azure City but now I'm pretty neutral because the interactions with Blackwing are just awesome. Really, the only consistent positions I can give are Belkar as my very least favourite and Durkon somewhere around place 2-3.

[Emanick]

Belkar does get character development, yes, but I just fail to be able to see him as a great character because to me he gets away with way too much when it comes to the consequences of his actions. The recent fall from the mountain demonstrated that again. He didn't even get a scratch.

Is that really a problem? His Feather Fall item made his scratchless condition totally unsurprising, and he had the item for a very believable reason.

I mean, yes, he didn't die, but he did lose the battle, fail in his mission, and almost die. I don't think he exactly got away scot-free from taking the risk he did (which wasn't a terribly unreasonable one to begin with - it's the sort of thing Haley could easily have done).

[Windscion]

Least favorite = Elan, easy. Mind you, I actually kinda like him now. Despite being dumb, he plays to his strengths -- he is skilled with people, brave, loyal and good. But I'm no fan of using stupidity to move the plot. (As you might imagine, this makes it hard for me to watch many episodes of the Simpsons.)

Then Haley -- hard for me to relate, but a fine character. Rogues are not my thing, I hate deceit. I just find it stressful AF.

Then Belkar -- I can relate to him a little, he's basically just an id on legs. He blows past peoples pretences, which I can appreciate.

Durkon is very much the PC I would play, and I can appreciate (while not sharing) his somewhat blindered approach to life. Thinking too much can be quite dangerous. Actually, Durkon and Belkar are kinda equal and opposite. Belkar is all id, Durkon is all superego. But they don't conflict much because Durkon's lawfulness is not the type that feels a need to tell other people what do.

Vampire!Durkon, however, I don't care for at all. If he counted he would be my least favorite, but he is not a member of the order.

Roy is, I think, the most 'heroic'. He makes mistakes, he learns, he grows. I totally root for him.

But V and Blackwing are just awesome. As V talks less, BW talks more. If Durkon is my PC, V is me. (I wish I had a talking raven familiar, too.)

[Mordar]

Vaarsuvius because he's a mass murderer.

Well, that's certainly different than every other member of the Order... :smallwink:

[Lotana]

Belkar is not my least favourite: he is firmly in really disliked.

He supposed to be comic-relief character, but his murderous, violence-based humour just doesn't do anything for me. His "character development", if it could be called as such, is minimal. At most it changed him from psychopath to be a sociopath instead: Still derive pleasure from violence, just on the victims that the rest of the party hates.

Haley rose quite a bit in my eyes in comic 570: She did what Roy should of done long before. As for "Keeping him around so that he does not do more damage" excuse: Just kill him like Roy killed all the other evil creatures. There are plenty of other combat-oriented characters that can be recruited without the overhead of Belkar's excesses.

My least favorite is Durkon. Purely because he had no character development and passivity.

[martianmister]

Belkar is not my least favourite: he is firmly in really disliked.

He supposed to be comic-relief character, but his murderous, violence-based humour just doesn't do anything for me. His "character development", if it could be called as such, is minimal. At most it changed him from psychopath to be a sociopath instead: Still derive pleasure from violence, just on the victims that the rest of the party hates.

Haley rose quite a bit in my eyes in comic 570: She did what Roy should of done long before. As for "Keeping him around so that he does not do more damage" excuse: Just kill him like Roy killed all the other evil creatures. There are plenty of other combat-oriented characters that can be recruited without the overhead of Belkar's excesses.

My least favorite is Durkon. Purely because he had no character development and passivity.

Same for me, Belkar all the way. He never face the consequences of his evil actions.

[A.A.King]

I don't get why people are so upset about Belkar not having any consequences to his Evil actions when they don't make such complaints towards Haley. Belkar may be a murderer (among other things) but Haley is a Thief and while Murder trumps theft on the sliding skill of evil, it is still evil. Not only that, but she stole from the party pretending loot she got never existed and scamming them into taking worthless pieces of rock as theor share of the loot. These are all acts of betrayal from which she suffered no karmic backlash. Haley is by far the wealthiest member of the party and not because she works more or made smarter investments (unless you count thief tools as a smarter investment ;) )

In the end these are just characters in a fictional world with rules and laws very different from our own. If 'Evil' is an acceptable choice (and certain gods aswell as the simple alignment system seem to imdicate that) then you can't exactly expect punishment for a crime well commited.

No my least favourite are simply the ones whose contribution to the story I find least interesting (with least in no way being an indication of 'bad') which would have to be V. More even than Haley (whose whole 'I can't talk routine' didn't interest me much) V's story is an internal struggle. It might not be quite as internal as Durkon (who is literally trapped inside of his own head) but the tension between him and the spirit is far more interesting than the simple debates between V and Blackwing.

[Kish]

In the end these are just characters in a fictional world with rules and laws very different from our own. If 'Evil' is an acceptable choice (and certain gods aswell as the simple alignment system seem to imdicate that)
The alignment system which states that players shouldn't play evil characters?

How do you figure Rich determined that Roy would be the protagonist, and Xykon the antagonist, of his overarching story, rather than the other way around? Did he flip a coin, perhaps?

[A.A.King]

The alignment system which states that players shouldn't play evil characters?

How do you figure Rich determined that Roy would be the protagonist, and Xykon the antagonist, of his overarching story, rather than the other way around? Did he flip a coin, perhaps?

You are assuming that Roy really is the protagonist, I'm still convinced that in the final battle Xykon will win in such a way that we the reader realise that he was the true hero of the story all along ;)

Also the alignment system doesn't state that players shouldn't play evil characters, it only states that the non-evil ones are the 'standard' for players the other three are still very much open. Anyway my point simply is that the D&D world is a world where 'being evil' can be an active choice with literal actual divine GODS backing your choice. You cannot expect perfect karmic backlash from a story if it is set in a world where the not all creators agree on who should and who shouldn't be punished. The story has all kinds of criminal and do-no-gooders who get away with their crimes simply by aligning themselves with our heroes. I just think it is very silly to demand consequences for Belkar, especially when you single him out and make no comment regarding the other criminals who are regarded as heroes and thus also face no consequence for their actions

You may of course disagree that is the beauty of opinions.

[Whelk]

Vaarsuvius takes my "least favorite" slot, but I still like him a lot. I particularly enjoy that he feels deep and genuine guilt (and fear) over his actions when spliced. The way he talks and makes understatements cracks me up. I root for him when he blows up bad guys (sometimes - other times I smirk at the overpoweredness, but that fact seems to be acknowledged and played for laughs in the comic, and even for character development).

I figured a lot of people would pick Durkon, though he's my favorite. I've always enjoyed the honest, dependable types of characters - I feel that type of thing is really underappreciated these days. And to the person who griped about him allowing his group to be taken to be executed - if I recall correctly, all they knew was that they were charged for crimes against existence and that they were being taken to Lord Shojo. Nothing about execution was ever mentioned. And considering that brought to light a threat against existence itself, can we really fault Durkon for wanting to go and learn more?

I have a love-annoyed relationship with Elan. I don't mind the foolishness so much as the silly way he talks sometimes - particularly when he uses the word "like" in a sort of "valley talk" way.

[Knaight]

You are assuming that Roy really is the protagonist, I'm still convinced that in the final battle Xykon will win in such a way that we the reader realise that he was the true hero of the story all along ;)

That wouldn't prevent Roy from being the protagonist. The story mostly follows his view point, he's in vastly more strips than Xykon, his narrative arc dominates the story overall while the rest of the order tends to see focus mostly in one book, etc. Him dying at the end wouldn't change any of that, the same way that Walter White dying at the end of Breaking bad doesn't retroactively make the protagonist one of the more moral characters, or how Nameless's death at the end of Hero doesn't retroactively turn the emperor of Qin into the protagonist.

Back on topic: Elan. I still like Elan okay as a character, and there are some very good lines, but he's not up to the standard of the rest of the order.

[Agnostik]

It's a toss-up between Haley, Belkar and Elan. But if I had to choose one... Haley. I'm sort of tired of her by now.

[The Pilgrim]

Right now my least favorite member is Haley, as she is the closest to an idealized character. No flaws, voice of reason, is a walking deus-ex-machina right now because she can pull any magic trick via a wand... meh.

It used to be Belkar because I could totally pass without the psychopatic "humor" he was the channel for. It actually diminished the comic IMHO. However after his developement into a less bitter leaf he has become interesting.

Vaarsuvius hit rock bottom with familicide, but she shown genuine terror when faced with the consequences of her action. And, really, an Elf being actually the least wise member of the party is a good subversion of the trope. Also she subverts the trope of the androgynous elf, as instead of being played for homophobic humor, it's actually played to make funny of the people who have a problem with it.

[KorvinStarmast]

It used to be Belkar because I could totally pass without the psychopatic "humor" he was the channel for. It actually diminished the comic IMHO. However after his developement into a less bitter leaf he has become interesting. Give credit to Mr Scruffy.

[Cizak]

Right now my least favorite member is Haley, as she is the closest to an idealized character. No flaws, voice of reason, is a walking deus-ex-machina right now because she can pull any magic trick via a wand... meh.

You misunderstand what a deus ex machina is (don't worry, you're in good company on these forums). Since it's been established that Haley is carrying wands, they're not unexplained or unexpected when she pulls them out. Not to mention that both times she has done it this far, they've haven't even been able to solve the problems she tried to solve. "Being the thing that solves the problem" is pretty much the most defining trait of a DEM, besides "being introduced out of nowhere". Also, a high level rogue having wands really isn't more of a DEM than a wizard being able to cast spells.

[Moo, I'm Human]

Best to worst:

1 Every animal ever.
2 Belkar
3 Elan
4 That one hero in the arena
5 Haley
6 Everyone else
7 Durkon

[An Enemy Spy]

Right now my least favorite member is Haley, as she is the closest to an idealized character. No flaws, voice of reason, is a walking deus-ex-machina right now because she can pull any magic trick via a wand... meh.

Haley has no flaws? The woman who cons her teammates out of gold, is so obsessed with money that losing it literally took away her ability to speak, and couldn't tell someone she loved how she felt about him because she has so little self respect that she can't conceive of anyone loving her back has no flaws? Or do you consider these traits to be positive qualities?

[Ruck]

Haley has no flaws? The woman who cons her teammates out of gold, is so obsessed with money that losing it literally took away her ability to speak, and couldn't tell someone she loved how she felt about him because she has so little self respect that she can't conceive of anyone loving her back has no flaws? Or do you consider these traits to be positive qualities?

To be fair, Pilgrim said "right now," and I don't think anything you've described has happened for at least 600 strips. (Haley apparently still cheats at board games, though.)

[theinsulabot]

belkar, pretty easily. been waiting for the prophecy to put him out of my misery for a while now.

[Emanick]

To be fair, Pilgrim said "right now," and I don't think anything you've described has happened for at least 600 strips. (Haley apparently still cheats at board games, though.)

She's still very greedy, though. It isn't emphasized as much anymore, but on the occasions when she's talked about money recently, that fact's been made abundantly clear.

[Unregistered]

Elan. I get the least laughs out of his jokes and the least "Oomph" out of his actions.

[Themrys]

As people?

I hate Belkar, which I am sure is intended.

Other than that, well, Elan behaved like an immature little **** at times (like when Roy was poisoned and paralyzed and Elan wrote insults on the wall behind him)

And all the male members of the OOTS drooled over Haley's wardrobe malfunction and her conversation with V.

And V really should'nt have committed genocide, but I have come to like hir more in the recent events.


There is no one I would consider a badly-written character.


I cannot dislike Durkon for having an unyielding sense of morality. When I was about six I was convinced it was totally immoral to colour in a dot-to-dot puzzle after you had joined the dots. Dot-to-dot puzzles had one purpose and were not to be teleologically abused.

I like all of the order and it would be hard if not impossible for me to put them in any sort of order.

I quite like Durkon, but his telling a victim of domestic abuse and rape (that's what she made him believe, after all) to return to her husband and be miserable, instead of, I don't know, telling her that murder is not the ethically correct way to solve such problems, was clearly wrong. Though that's one of those parts of the comic where I'm not sure whether we are to take things seriously. It makes no, or at least not much sense for dwarves to have a society where forcing women into marriage by threatening their lives is totes okay, but men are socialized to offer their wives foot rubs instead of raping them. While it is possible that her husband just happened to be a total sweetheart in spite of dwarven culture socializing him otherwise, such is unlikely, and it also clashes with the portrayal of Durkon's past, which does not contain any oppression of women that I remember.

[Ruck]

She's still very greedy, though. It isn't emphasized as much anymore, but on the occasions when she's talked about money recently, that fact's been made abundantly clear.

Sure-- we just had a joke about it-- but even being greedy isn't much of a character flaw if you aren't actually doing bad things out of greed.

[Emanick]

I quite like Durkon, but his telling a victim of domestic abuse and rape (that's what she made him believe, after all) to return to her husband and be miserable, instead of, I don't know, telling her that murder is not the ethically correct way to solve such problems, was clearly wrong. Though that's one of those parts of the comic where I'm not sure whether we are to take things seriously. It makes no, or at least not much sense for dwarves to have a society where forcing women into marriage by threatening their lives is totes okay, but men are socialized to offer their wives foot rubs instead of raping them. While it is possible that her husband just happened to be a total sweetheart in spite of dwarven culture socializing him otherwise, such is unlikely, and it also clashes with the portrayal of Durkon's past, which does not contain any oppression of women that I remember.

I just reread comic #83, and I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that Durkon probably got the impression that Hilgya was a victim of domestic abuse and rape. We don't have any reason to assume that Hilgya was threatened with death if she didn't marry her husband - indeed, given what we know of dwarven culture, that seems highly unlikely. Nor does it make much sense to consider arranged marriages an intrinsically abusive system; just think about parts of our world where arranged marriages are a thing. Most people in the Western world would never be okay with them, because of our individualistic culture, but plenty of people do prefer that setup. Arranged marriage and domestic abuse aren't remotely synonymous, and I suspect most people who do participate in arranged marriages would be offended by that implication.

I also don't think we have any compelling evidence that there are sexist power differentials in play in the arranged marriage system used by the Dwarven Lands. The OOTSverse seems to be a much more egalitarian place than our world; I can't recall a single incident of sexism taking place in the dwarven territories, and the High Priest of Thor, possibly the single most powerful individual in the land, is a woman, with no one appearing to find that unusual - a sign that, at the very least, there appears to be no "glass ceiling" among the dwarves. Being a traditional society may often go hand in hand with misogyny, but I don't think we have any reason to assume that that's the case here.

As for why Hilgya married her husband if she wasn't being oppressed? Sure, that sounds bad, but remember, she's an Evil attempted murderer deliberately making her situation sound much worse than it was. She may have just gone through with the wedding due to social pressures, figuring that the easiest way out of her situation was to accept the marriage and then murder her groom ASAP. We also don't have any reason to believe that she and her husband weren't equally obliged to marry one another, only that her husband was much happier about the situation than she was. In that case, the "oppression" would have been unrelated to her sex; the fact that her individual autonomy and free will are being deemphasized is due to tradition, not sexism.

And of course, Durkon, who knows his society much better than we ever will, would be in a much better position to judge just how bad Hilgya's plight was than we are. I think it makes sense to give him the benefit of the doubt there, since we know he's a good person.


Sure-- we just had a joke about it-- but even being greedy isn't much of a character flaw if you aren't actually doing bad things out of greed.

I mean, in a normal day-to-day life, being super greedy is a pretty significant failing, even if you just spend your time lusting after wealth and don't actually act on that greed. Being okay with stealing stuff all the time is also arguably pretty bad, and Haley will probably stay "pro-stealing" after the end of OOTS.

Of course, compared to serial murderers like Belkar and Xykon, Haley looks like a saint, sure. But I think the context of OOTS, especially the current plotline, which basically minimizes the impact of her character defects, makes her look more flawless than she really is.

[Hamste]

Actually we do have reason to think she was threatened with death. The panels presumably tell the actual story as they are mostly in contrast with what she is saying. Unless it is dwarven tradition to not only bring crossbows to weddings but then point said crossbow at the back of the bride-to-be, she was in a crossbow wedding (a joke on shotgun weddings) where she either had to marry or be shot. We don't know how common this is though so Durkon might or might not know she was threatened with death. All Durkon knew for sure is the dwarves culture which does have evil dwarves in it seeing she was one, that she was married, that she said Ivan was a cruel man who constantly hounded her with questions, that she hated Ivan and that she tried to murder Ivan. Durkon then chose to ignore the whole murder thing, the cruel thing and the hatred thing to focus on how she ran away from traditions and marriage. It is a very lawful thing to do but not a very good thing to do.


I'm ignoring the female inequality thing as nothing I have seen about the dwarves suggest that their society treats females differently and if anything it all suggests the sexes are equals.

[Themrys]

I'm ignoring the female inequality thing as nothing I have seen about the dwarves suggest that their society treats females differently and if anything it all suggests the sexes are equals.

Forced marriages only occur in patriarchies. I admit this is a pretty meaningless statement as all modern societies are patriarchies, but it is an observable fact that the worse women are oppressed, the more likely forced marriages are.
Besides, in a generally equal society, people wouldn't be considered the property of their parents, and therefore, no one would have the power to force them into marriage. (Unless you have a dystopia where the government plays the matchmaker.)

I strongly suspect the author changed his ideas on what he wanted dwarven society to be like somewhere inbetween Hilgya's backstory (which implies your average, deeply patriarchal and traditional dwarf society,like you get in most works by Tolkien imitators) and Durkon's backstory (which shows a much more nuanced society where nothing implies a patriachy). Therefore, it is difficult to decide which facts are "true".

@Emanick: Name one single society where arranged marriages are a thing, and where women are not oppressed worse than in, say, Sweden. Yes, some of the women may be okay with it, but I doubt it is a coincidence that those traditions happen to exist in cultures that are soaked in misogyny. Besides, arranged marriage where you are asked for your opinion (which some women are okay with), is not the same thing has having a crossbow held to your head.

[Hamste]

Forced marriages only occur in patriarchies. I admit this is a pretty meaningless statement as all modern societies are patriarchies, but it is an observable fact that the worse women are oppressed, the more likely forced marriages are.
Besides, in a generally equal society, people wouldn't be considered the property of their parents, and would therefore not be forced to marry anyone.

I strongly suspect the author changed his ideas on what he wanted dwarven society to be like somewhere inbetween Hilgya's backstory (which implies your average, deeply patriarchal and traditional dwarf society,like you get in most works by Tolkien imitators) and Durkon's backstory (which shows a much more nuanced society where nothing implies a patriachy). Therefore, it is difficult to decide which facts are "true".
I would argue it is completely plausible both parties were forced into marriage. It is rarer for males to be forced to marry but it isn't impossible. For example a few authoritarian governments use forced marriage as a means to increase population. Ivan just happened to be happy and excited for it. I will also note I never said generally equal but that the sexes are equal. It seems likely that the dwarf society is based on age inequalities with the focus on ancestors and how much control parents can have of their children's lives. Can't really be sure until we see the council though and even if they are all old dwarves I'm still not proven correct as it could be a coincidence.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Nor does it make much sense to consider arranged marriages an intrinsically abusive system; just think about parts of our world where arranged marriages are a thing. Most people in the Western world would never be okay with them, because of our individualistic culture, but plenty of people do prefer that setup.

People seem to be fairly comfortable with arranged relationships, as long as people use words like scientific analysis and computerized selection.

Most politically arranged matches are generally forced marriages for the kids. Catharine of Aragon and Prince Arthur spring to mind.

[Emanick]

Actually we do have reason to think she was threatened with death. The panels presumably tell the actual story as they are mostly in contrast with what she is saying. Unless it is dwarven tradition to not only bring crossbows to weddings but then point said crossbow at the back of the bride-to-be, she was in a crossbow wedding (a joke on shotgun weddings) where she either had to marry or be shot. We don't know how common this is though so Durkon might or might not know she was threatened with death. All Durkon knew for sure is the dwarves culture which does have evil dwarves in it seeing she was one, that she was married, that she said Ivan was a cruel man who constantly hounded her with questions, that she hated Ivan and that she tried to murder Ivan. Durkon then chose to ignore the whole murder thing, the cruel thing and the hatred thing to focus on how she ran away from traditions and marriage. It is a very lawful thing to do but not a very good thing to do.

I totally missed the dwarf with a crossbow! Your other points are also well made. I concede the "argument" (what a nasty word).


Forced marriages only occur in patriarchies. I admit this is a pretty meaningless statement as all modern societies are patriarchies, but it is an observable fact that the worse women are oppressed, the more likely forced marriages are.
Besides, in a generally equal society, people wouldn't be considered the property of their parents, and therefore, no one would have the power to force them into marriage. (Unless you have a dystopia where the government plays the matchmaker.)

I strongly suspect the author changed his ideas on what he wanted dwarven society to be like somewhere inbetween Hilgya's backstory (which implies your average, deeply patriarchal and traditional dwarf society,like you get in most works by Tolkien imitators) and Durkon's backstory (which shows a much more nuanced society where nothing implies a patriachy). Therefore, it is difficult to decide which facts are "true".

@Emanick: Name one single society where arranged marriages are a thing, and where women are not oppressed worse than in, say, Sweden. Yes, some of the women may be okay with it, but I doubt it is a coincidence that those traditions happen to exist in cultures that are soaked in misogyny. Besides, arranged marriage where you are asked for your opinion (which some women are okay with), is not the same thing has having a crossbow held to your head.

I don't think we can use the connection between patriarchies and forced marriages on Earth as evidence that there's a similar connection in the OOTSverse. I expect you're right that strips #83-84 are simply the product of a Rich Burlew who hasn't yet decided what OOTSverse dwarven culture is like, but I think we should interpret them in the way that ties in best with later strips, which don't imply that dwarven society is oppressively patriarchal.

To me, the preponderance of the evidence suggests that in OOTS dwarven culture, it is the clan and one's elders who take precedence over the individual, not the men over the women. We never see any women being oppressed by men except in #83 (and there it seems to be because Hilgya is unwilling to get married, which does not necessarily have anything to do with her sex), whereas we see lots of evidence that elders and the community are revered among dwarves. Rich's comments also seem to suggest that he is trying to build a world that is deliberately more egalitarian than our own (I don't have time to look up the comments right now, but I think I'm remembering aright), so I think that it's fair to chalk any unpleasantness in the Hilgya episode up to reasons that have nothing to do with gender norms.

[Aldarin]

I just reread comic #83, and I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that Durkon probably got the impression that Hilgya was a victim of domestic abuse and rape. We don't have any reason to assume that Hilgya was threatened with death if she didn't marry her husband - indeed, given what we know of dwarven culture, that seems highly unlikely. Nor does it make much sense to consider arranged marriages an intrinsically abusive system; just think about parts of our world where arranged marriages are a thing. Most people in the Western world would never be okay with them, because of our individualistic culture, but plenty of people do prefer that setup. Arranged marriage and domestic abuse aren't remotely synonymous, and I suspect most people who do participate in arranged marriages would be offended by that implication.

I also don't think we have any compelling evidence that there are sexist power differentials in play in the arranged marriage system used by the Dwarven Lands. The OOTSverse seems to be a much more egalitarian place than our world; I can't recall a single incident of sexism taking place in the dwarven territories, and the High Priest of Thor, possibly the single most powerful individual in the land, is a woman, with no one appearing to find that unusual - a sign that, at the very least, there appears to be no "glass ceiling" among the dwarves. Being a traditional society may often go hand in hand with misogyny, but I don't think we have any reason to assume that that's the case here.

As for why Hilgya married her husband if she wasn't being oppressed? Sure, that sounds bad, but remember, she's an Evil attempted murderer deliberately making her situation sound much worse than it was. She may have just gone through with the wedding due to social pressures, figuring that the easiest way out of her situation was to accept the marriage and then murder her groom ASAP. We also don't have any reason to believe that she and her husband weren't equally obliged to marry one another, only that her husband was much happier about the situation than she was. In that case, the "oppression" would have been unrelated to her sex; the fact that her individual autonomy and free will are being deemphasized is due to tradition, not sexism.

And of course, Durkon, who knows his society much better than we ever will, would be in a much better position to judge just how bad Hilgya's plight was than we are. I think it makes sense to give him the benefit of the doubt there, since we know he's a good person.



I mean, in a normal day-to-day life, being super greedy is a pretty significant failing, even if you just spend your time lusting after wealth and don't actually act on that greed. Being okay with stealing stuff all the time is also arguably pretty bad, and Haley will probably stay "pro-stealing" after the end of OOTS.

Of course, compared to serial murderers like Belkar and Xykon, Haley looks like a saint, sure. But I think the context of OOTS, especially the current plotline, which basically minimizes the impact of her character defects, makes her look more flawless than she really is.

That's a very interesting standpoint on Haley's morality. The way I view it, the circumstances of her early childhood taught her to steal. And as Hobbes believes, people are very much 'tabula rosa.' And as such, she isn't a bad person, she is simply inclined to chaos due to her upbringing. All in all, her Good alignment makes me believe that Haley is more inclined to helping others, but her first priority is to herself and Elan--her most precious valuables, as it were.

[martianmister]

It is rarer for males to be forced to marry but it isn't impossible.

Isn't stereotypical "shotgun wedding" usually involves a forced groom?

[Hamste]

Isn't stereotypical "shotgun wedding" usually involves a forced groom?

Yeah, but that isn't really on as massive scale hence rarer (Some places essentially all women are forced to marry while shotgun weddings happen to a much smaller subset of the population). Probably, a better example than the one I used though.

[acire]

Actually we do have reason to think she was threatened with death. The panels presumably tell the actual story as they are mostly in contrast with what she is saying. Unless it is dwarven tradition to not only bring crossbows to weddings but then point said crossbow at the back of the bride-to-be, she was in a crossbow wedding (a joke on shotgun weddings) where she either had to marry or be shot. We don't know how common this is though so Durkon might or might not know she was threatened with death. All Durkon knew for sure is the dwarves culture which does have evil dwarves in it seeing she was one, that she was married, that she said Ivan was a cruel man who constantly hounded her with questions, that she hated Ivan and that she tried to murder Ivan. Durkon then chose to ignore the whole murder thing, the cruel thing and the hatred thing to focus on how she ran away from traditions and marriage. It is a very lawful thing to do but not a very good thing to do.


I'm ignoring the female inequality thing as nothing I have seen about the dwarves suggest that their society treats females differently and if anything it all suggests the sexes are equals.

This is why I'm no longer as sympathetic to Durkon as I was the first time that I read #83. It's not simply that Durkon has a strong moral code, it's that that code views, "I abandoned a marriage that I felt stifled and abused in," as more a cause for admonishment than, "My first plan for escape was murdering my husband rather than seeing if maybe just leaving would work out for me."

[Emanick]

That's a very interesting standpoint on Haley's morality. The way I view it, the circumstances of her early childhood taught her to steal. And as Hobbes believes, people are very much 'tabula rosa.' And as such, she isn't a bad person, she is simply inclined to chaos due to her upbringing. All in all, her Good alignment makes me believe that Haley is more inclined to helping others, but her first priority is to herself and Elan--her most precious valuables, as it were.

I don't see Haley as a bad person. She's very much a product of her circumstances (as well as her choices, of course). Still, there's a difference between not being a bad person and being essentially flawless. I don't look down on Haley for stealing, but I do see it as a character flaw of hers.

[Aldarin]

I don't see Haley as a bad person. She's very much a product of her circumstances (as well as her choices, of course). Still, there's a difference between not being a bad person and being essentially flawless. I don't look down on Haley for stealing, but I do see it as a character flaw of hers.

I see what you mean. Good point(s).

[Liquor Box]

Elan is my least favourite member of the Order.

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't look down on Haley for stealing, but I do see it as a character flaw of hers. I see it as her character class.

[Hamste]

I see it as her character class.

Rogues can totally not steal. The only class feature they even get in 3.5 that supports them stealing over any other class is trapfinding and skills. It is less that she likes to steal things because she is a rogue and more she is a rogue because she likes to steal things (and stereotypically that is what people who like stealing things choose).

[ChillerInstinct]

Rogues can totally not steal. The only class feature they even get in 3.5 that supports them stealing over any other class is trapfinding and skills. It is less that she likes to steal things because she is a rogue and more she is a rogue because she likes to steal things (and stereotypically that is what people who like stealing things choose).

And heck, trapfinding, disable device, etc. don't even necessarily have to involve stealing. I mean, sure, the first thing that comes to mind when you think "skilled at locating and disabling security systems" is burglary, but in a universe where being a highly trained mercenary/vigilante trespassing on the grounds of sentient beings, killing them, and taking their stuff is more than allowed for even Lawful beings...

Heck, in a semi-modern setting, you know what a Rogue could do for a totally legitimate career? Being a minesweeper (I mean, even if you mess up, Improved Evasion, baby). Or doing tactical entry as law enforcement, finding alternative entrances and disabling booby traps (and really, in standard D&D settings, isn't this pretty much what a Rogue does for their party anyway?) And, when it comes down to it, that's a lot of what Haley's been doing in the past few books-- very little thieving, but lots of disabling traps and utilizing secret doors.

[Liquor Box]

And heck, trapfinding, disable device, etc. don't even necessarily have to involve stealing. I mean, sure, the first thing that comes to mind when you think "skilled at locating and disabling security systems" is burglary, but in a universe where being a highly trained mercenary/vigilante trespassing on the grounds of sentient beings, killing them, and taking their stuff is more than allowed for even Lawful beings...

Heck, in a semi-modern setting, you know what a Rogue could do for a totally legitimate career? Being a minesweeper (I mean, even if you mess up, Improved Evasion, baby). Or doing tactical entry as law enforcement, finding alternative entrances and disabling booby traps (and really, in standard D&D settings, isn't this pretty much what a Rogue does for their party anyway?) And, when it comes down to it, that's a lot of what Haley's been doing in the past few books-- very little thieving, but lots of disabling traps and utilizing secret doors.

I don't even recall seeing much of Hayley picking locks or disabling traps recently. Her bluff skill seems to have contributed to the party moreso than any of the traditional thief skills.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I can't remember lock picking, but she did a fair amount of trap spotting and trap disarming in Girard's pyramid. And she's not had a lot of screen time lately, either.

[ChillerInstinct]

I don't even recall seeing much of Hayley picking locks or disabling traps recently. Her bluff skill seems to have contributed to the party moreso than any of the traditional thief skills.

She disabled quite a few traps during Girard's Pyramid, both while entering (even if the Kobold "found" them), and the entire door loaded with trap runes that resulted in Belkar getting separated from the rest of the group and running into Malack.

Not so much doors, I suppose. Last on screen pick, if memory serves, was back when they were breaking into the gladiatorial arena to meet up with Ian, and she can be seen picking the locks on slave collars back in #750 (...geez, it JUST dawned on me that said scene was over a quarter of the comic's length ago, holy cow). She's done it as recently as the last book, at any rate. Hasn't really been too much of a chance for her to do it in this one, yet, what with the airship, being chased by Crystal, and all that. :P

Even then, it's been a longer time since we've actually seen her STEAL something. Heck, I'm probably wrong about this, but wasn't the last time she even DISARMED someone back when she stole the trident when they were escaping the Empress of Blood? Looting the wands from Z aside, I mean (I don't really count it, seeing as a) Z was dead with no reasonable chance of getting raised, and b) they make a point of saying Nale is still nearby, so arming herself a bit further, especially since V was still MIA and they didn't really know what to make of Durkula as far as casting, so it was a reasonable defensive choice)

EDIT: ...And, I've been ninja'd. I guess that's the problem with getting longwinded. XD

[Kish]

"Haley as party's skill monkey" also suffers from "now Haley picks three locks and disarms four traps, none of which are otherwise noteworthy" being more likely to be skipped entirely than "now Roy/Belkar hack and Vaarsuvius/Durkon blast through half a dozen generic enemies," when the Order is going through a dungeon.

That said, I'm of two minds on the subject. As a D&D player I'm a firm advocate of non-thief rogues. As a reader of OotS, it seems pointless to pretend that Rich hasn't treated "rogue" and "thief" as synonyms for 1034 comics and print-only change so far.

[factotum]

As a reader of OotS, it seems pointless to pretend that Rich hasn't treated "rogue" and "thief" as synonyms for 1034 comics and print-only change so far.

Isn't Crystal's official class Rogue? And she was an assassin, not a thief.

[goodpeople25]

That said, I'm of two minds on the subject. As a D&D player I'm a firm advocate of non-thief rogues. As a reader of OotS, it seems pointless to pretend that Rich hasn't treated "rogue" and "thief" as synonyms for 1034 comics and print-only change so far.
Gannji is a thief? He makes an honest living of beating people unconscious and transporting them across international borders. Tis a fine profession not to be tarnished with petty fraud, and more on point simple thievery (i guess anyway, that wasn't in the orignal speech)

[DavidBV]

I don't even recall seeing much of Hayley picking locks or disabling traps recently. Her bluff skill seems to have contributed to the party moreso than any of the traditional thief skills.

Well, she tried with that door inside the pyramid. But she admitted having neglected the skills as of late (I wonder why, in 3.5 she should have enough points to spare)

[Kish]

Isn't Crystal's official class Rogue? And she was an assassin, not a thief.
Crystal's official class is assassin. The rogue levels she has so that she could enter her prestige class result in her getting stick from Haley for the crudity of the "kill the victim and loot the body" approach Crystal takes...in her thefts.

Gannji counts.

[RossN]

I find Roy rather dull. I understand how important a role the straight man is in comedy but he's a little too blandly perfect to invest in for me.

I have a very mixed opinion about Belkar. Sometimes he is second only to Elan as my favourite, more often he is somewhere in the middle and sometimes I wish he'd die already. I do find him funny but at the same time I really want to see him punished for his countless misdeeds and end the story unredeemed.

[KorvinStarmast]

I find Roy rather dull. I understand how important a role the straight man is in comedy but he's a little too blandly perfect to invest in for me.

I have a very mixed opinion about Belkar. Sometimes he is second only to Elan as my favourite, more often he is somewhere in the middle and sometimes I wish he'd die already. I do find him funny but at the same time I really want to see him punished for his countless misdeeds and end the story unredeemed. Mr Scruffy is working on a ranger improvement project, so you're less likely to get your desired "justice" and more likely to karma act up here and there.

[Kish]

Still gonna be dead in a couple weeks though.

[RossN]

Mr Scruffy is working on a ranger improvement project, so you're less likely to get your desired "justice" and more likely to karma act up here and there.

I know. :smallfrown:

I'm pretty much resigned to the likelihood seeing Belkar get an (IMO) undeserved redemption and at worst perform a heroic sacrifice.

[BriantheGinger]

If you asked me during the first two books, I'd have said Roy. Dude was such an insufferable ass whose "Everyone Sucks But Me!" attitude put me off. Even when I agreed with him, I felt dirty, because he was just such a **** about proving his point, I ended up siding with the other party just out of spite. Now that I think about it, he still is, but now it's because I'm not as engaged with him as the other five (Even Durkon has his moments). He's gotten better though, don't get me wrong.

Brief Ranking of the Order, not including animals:
1) :haley:
2) :elan:
3) :belkar:
4) :vaarsuvius:
5) :durkon:
6) :roy:

[Conradine]

Varsuvius. I never exactly understood what his/ her objectives are.

[Ron Miel]

Varsuvius. I never exactly understood what his/ her objectives are.

Acquiring the XP to gain ultimate arcane power.

[littlebum2002]

Varsuvius. I never exactly understood what his/ her objectives are.


Acquiring the XP to gain ultimate arcane power.

Exactly. V is a munchkin, V has the simplest motives in the game story.

[littlebum2002]

Brief Ranking of the Order, not including animals:


Ooh, good idea

1) :vaarsuvius:
2) :belkar:
3) :roy: :haley: (tie)
5) :elan:
6) :durkon:

[wumpus]

Acquiring the XP to gain ultimate arcane power.

This isn't all that clear. At least one objective that V has is to atone for the familicide. V certainly made a long term goal of ultimate arcane power, of which acquiring the xp is only one possible means to that end. As V has already experienced "ultimate arcane power" and it was insufficient for the task at hand (oddly enough, ultimate divine power might well have been vastly superior), V may have to consider the worthiness of that goal and the proper point to declare it achieved or abandoned.

The idea of a munchkin face to face with the limits of munchkining might leapfrog V from being one of the least interesting characters to one of the most interesting characters. One catch is that it really won't effect V's actions until Xykon is dealt with (and thus the end of the strip) so it really depends on if the Giant feels explicitly showing V's motivation at the end of strip and how 'e got there is all that interesting.

[Ruck]

V started off with the Order for the goal of attaining ultimate arcane power; since being forced to confront the consequences of Familicide, hir goal has (at least as of the conversation with Roy at the end of BRitF) to attempt to atone for it, at least by committing to the Order's quest to stop Xykon and save the world.

[Comrade]

Surprised so many people have expressed dislike for Roy. He's probably my favourite character: serious, far from whacky, but with a wry sense of humour that often hits home.

As for least favourite-- time to parrot many others: Durkon. He's just not a very interesting character to me; I don't generally enjoy his scenes, and at times he outright annoys me, usually in circumstances like when he was chastising Hilgya or Roy's sister.

And since rankings seem to be the thrust of this thread-- between Roy and Durkon, I'd place Belkar, Haley, Vaarsuvius, and Elan. Not really fond of Elan either.

[RossN]

Surprised so many people have expressed dislike for Roy. He's probably my favourite character: serious, far from whacky, but with a wry sense of humour that often hits home.

I think that might be why so many people, myself included, don't especially like him. :smallwink:

One can certainly go too wacky (I don't think a Thog based comic would work nearly as well long term) but at same time you can be too serious and for me at least Roy leans too far that way. He can indeed be funny, but again most of his humour is of an only sane man in an absurd situation it can at times read like you are listening to an external reader providing a running commentary on the comic.

The big thing though, at least for me, is that Roy is often just too blandly perfect. That's why I find him a far duller character than Durkon. Not only is he the most capable member of the Order the only time we really see him make mistakes is via lack of in-character knowledge. He doesn't necessarily have to have a huge Familycide style mistake weighing down his storyline but he could do with some flaws. They don't have to be weaknesses exactly - Haley's greed and V's arrogance don't prevent those characters from being very skilled - but something.

[BriantheGinger]

Surprised so many people have expressed dislike for Roy. He's probably my favourite character: serious, far from whacky, but with a wry sense of humour that often hits home.

Like I said, I really hated Roy early on because he was an arrogant prick who acted like everyone around him were morons (they were, but that's beside the point) and everyone should kiss his butt for having the ability to deal with such lower people. And since I hate this kind of person in real life, I take no enjoyment in seeing them in fiction. Which is why one of my fav moments in Paladin Blues (which is even better since the main theme of the book's first half or so is pretty much "Roy Sucks") is when Haley tells him off for wanting to abandon Elan (which cemented her as my favorite character in the series), which was really the only time someone called him out on his crap. Yeah, he came back, but his apology got interrupted by Haley (because God forbid Elan ever stop putting Roy above his pedestal) and he went right back into douchelord territory, so that realization felt pointless.

He got better when he stopped acting like it was all about him, but even now I just find him kind-of bland. He hasn't really developed a whole lot and his straight-man role is better filled by others (mainly because they don't open their moths every other panel). The current book may finally give Roy some actual depth, instead of just moments where he acts like an actual human being, but it probably won't be enough to bring him out of least-favorite status.

[littlebum2002]

Like I said, I really hated Roy early on because he was an arrogant prick who acted like everyone around him were morons (they were, but that's beside the point)

It's not beside the point at all.

Everyone around him WERE morons.

He had 2 choices:

1) admit the truth, that everyone around him was morons, or

2) lie


so basically you're saying "I hate Roy because he tells the truth"


Now, if everyone around him were rational people, THEN acting "smarter than them" would be an arrogant thing to do. But considering that his teammates ineptitude pretty much ruined every plan he made, how on earth can you blame him?

[Kish]

While I do not begrudge anyone disliking Roy, I am somewhat amused that two people in a row indicated disliking him for directly antipodal reasons: one because he's perfect and one because he's awful.

[Knaight]

The big thing though, at least for me, is that Roy is often just too blandly perfect. That's why I find him a far duller character than Durkon. Not only is he the most capable member of the Order the only time we really see him make mistakes is via lack of in-character knowledge. He doesn't necessarily have to have a huge Familycide style mistake weighing down his storyline but he could do with some flaws. They don't have to be weaknesses exactly - Haley's greed and V's arrogance don't prevent those characters from being very skilled - but something.

He makes plenty of mistakes. There was his excessive trust of Miko, informed largely by him thinking with his trouser titan. There was the abandonment of Elan to the bandits. There was his trust in vampire Durkon. There's his ongoing feud with his dad, which is at least partially on Roy (although Eugene being a bit of a tool is a contributing factor). There's some of his interactions with Julia, where he acts a bit too overbearing and superior. All of these are mistakes, and some of them are patterns of small mistakes. He's broadly competent, but he's far from perfect.

[5a Violista]

So I got too bored, and then made a chart showing what character is the least favorite and the stated reasons.


http://i1256.photobucket.com/albums/ii499/Mahonri_Violis/leastf_zpsezusqbyc.jpgThe trends are not that surprising, actually, which makes me question why I bothered to make it.
Actually, though, I found it remarkable that Haley is the most not-least favorite character. Also, the most interesting thing is that nearly everyone who disliked Roy, Haley, and Vaarsuvius felt the need to state why, whereas disliking Durkon or Belkar doesn't even need to be explained; it just is.

[Liquor Box]

Also, the most interesting thing is that nearly everyone who disliked Roy, Haley, and Vaarsuvius felt the need to state why, whereas disliking Durkon or Belkar doesn't even need to be explained; it just is.

That's because the only possible reason not to like Belkar is jealousy, and people don't want to admit to that.

[RossN]

While I do not begrudge anyone disliking Roy, I am somewhat amused that two people in a row indicated disliking him for directly antipodal reasons: one because he's perfect and one because he's awful.

In fairness BriantheGinger did point out that he disliked Roy's earlier arrogance but now finds him bland. I'd tend to agree. Notably except for trusting Vampire Durkon (which I'd suggest falls under lack of knowledge available to the audience but not the characters) nearly all the 'mistakes' Knaight lists date from the early strips.

Actually that may be part of the issue for me. Roy went through his character development much earlier than the others (as early as #162 he'd basically become the 'modern' version of the character), so he's been (IMO) a fairly static and blandly perfect character for a lot of the strip.

[factotum]

That's because the only possible reason not to like Belkar is jealousy, and people don't want to admit to that.

I don't see why anyone would want to be an amoral murderer, and I'm not sure what other traits Belkar has that one could be jealous of?

[Liquor Box]

I don't see why anyone would want to be an amoral murderer, and I'm not sure what other traits Belkar has that one could be jealous of?

What about his frequent burns of the other members?

[factotum]

What about his frequent burns of the other members?

Ah, so he's an amoral murderer *and* unpleasant to his friends? Well, objection withdrawn, how can anyone not possibly like him? :smallamused:

[Vinyadan]

So I got too bored, and then made a chart showing what character is the least favorite and the stated reasons.


http://i1256.photobucket.com/albums/ii499/Mahonri_Violis/leastf_zpsezusqbyc.jpgThe trends are not that surprising, actually, which makes me question why I bothered to make it.
Actually, though, I found it remarkable that Haley is the most not-least favorite character. Also, the most interesting thing is that nearly everyone who disliked Roy, Haley, and Vaarsuvius felt the need to state why, whereas disliking Durkon or Belkar doesn't even need to be explained; it just is.

Which program did you use?

[5a Violista]

I used either Microsoft Excel or LibreOffice Calc, because I'm pretty sure I remember using spreadsheets to make it instead of other things and I have both of those on different computers. Judging by how generic the colors are, it was probably Excel.

[Mightymosy]

[...]
As for least favourite-- time to parrot many others: Durkon. He's just not a very interesting character to me; I don't generally enjoy his scenes, and at times he outright annoys me, usually in circumstances like when he was chastising Hilgya or Roy's sister.[...]

Especially since these scenes go largely without commentary from other characters or even these girls in questions themselves - by Durkon having the last word on these things it leaves the impression that word of Durkon = word of comic (although that might not be true).

[Fincher]

Favorite to least favorite:

1. Elan
2. Belkar
3. Roy
4. Haley
5. Vaarsuvius
6. Durkon

I don't dislike any of them, though.

[Liquor Box]

Ah, so he's an amoral murderer *and* unpleasant to his friends? Well, objection withdrawn, how can anyone not possibly like him? :smallamused:

I thought we were discussing why you might be jealous of him, not why you might liked him. I accept that you may not like him, for the reason I already mentioned. Another reason to be jealous is that the ladies love him.

[Ruck]

Another reason to be jealous is that the ladies love him.

LL Cool B.

[factotum]

I thought we were discussing why you might be jealous of him, not why you might liked him.

But you said in your earlier post "the only possible reason not to like Belkar is jealousy", so seems to me discussing one is discussing the other as well, at least according to you?

[Hamste]

LL Cool B.

For the life of me I can't figure out what it means. Cool B could be Cool Beans but what is LL? Maybe a reference to LL Cool J (that's what I got when I searched LL Cool B.)

[Kish]

Yes. LL Cool J stands for "Ladies Love Cool J."

[Rogar Demonblud]

Ladies Love Cool James, actually.

[Kish]

Right, that.

[ode]

Someone else referenced it earlier, but I'll cheat and go with Blackwing.