Paladin-Stat opt. and GWM/PolearmM questions

[Dimcair]

Human Variant

15 str
10 dex
13 con
8 int
10 wis
15 cha

+1 to two stats

1st Feat: Great weapon Master
4th Feat: Pole Arm Master
8th ASI: Str (18)
12 ASI: Str (20)

Starting at lvl 5. Campaign will definitely not go further than 12, if that.

One of the +1s goes into Str, that is a given, but the other one? Charisma or Con?
Charisma because +1 HP/level is just worse than having extra spells and abilities?


Also:

A crit with the butt of the weapon during a bonus action means you can't benefit from GWM since you already used your bonus action, correct?

Finally, when do you use the -5/+10 option on the butt end? All the time because 1d4+3 is so little it is worth the risk? Or only if you have advantage? I am assuming all the time, since the risk reward is high? What if you have a hunters mark on the target? (1d4+3+1d6)

[PeteNutButter]

Just dump dex or wisdom, and start with a 14 con. I'd suggest wisdom, since you are proficient in the save anyways. You'd start at lvl 5 with +2 to the save and then the next level you get your cha to saves making it +5, nearly as good as the cleric.

You may only take one bonus action a turn. Hitting with the butt of your weapon is a bonus action.

When to use the -5/+10 is actually a complex equation based on your overall chance to hit (your +to hit vs enemy AC) + your damage, and the math can swing pretty wildly. A simplified way of looking at it just acknowledge that -5 is 25% less chance to hit, so as long as you are increasing your damage by 25% or more its a good trade. 1d4+4 is 6.5 dmg. 6.5*.25 is only 1.625. So that -5 to hit on average is only losing you 1.625 damage while the +10 more than makes up for it. Unless your doing 40 damage a swing, seems like you pretty much always want to use the -5/+10. Keep in mind though, sometimes you just need to hit.

[Dimcair]

Just dump dex or wisdom, and start with a 14 con. I'd suggest wisdom, since you are proficient in the save anyways. You'd start at lvl 5 with +2 to the save and then the next level you get your cha to saves making it +5, nearly as good as the cleric.


I didn't see that, thank you.

I guess it is because I hate to do it. Don't like to have 2 stats at under 10. It looks very min-max. Then again, 'why not? whats wrong with min max?' on the one hand and '**** it, i am MAD anyways, what do you expect' on the other.

[Foxhound438]

A simplified way of looking at it just acknowledge that -5 is 25% less chance to hit, so as long as you are increasing your damage by 25% or more its a good trade.

that's 25 of your overall hit chance; it might be 90% of what would have hit out the window now, so it's just not so simple. If you're fighting something with 19 ac, you'd have +6 or +1, so your hit chance drops from 40% to only 15. .15*15.5=2.3, .4*5.5=2.2, so you'd still have an improvement there but any higher and you're starting to lose out. Also take into account the fact that if you really need to push damage you can smite, but not if you can't hit.

at the end of the day you should mostly be GWM'ing on soft targets, but the basic d4+3 would probably be worth GWM'ing anyways. If you're marking, divine favoring, or have IDS at Pal 11 you should probably stick to the standard hit against hard targets. also note that devotion paladin's channel, in conjunction with GWM, easily clears out weaker foes. slightly better than Vow in such cases since it doesn't end after the first target dies.

i second dropping to 2 8's for 16/16/14/10/8/8 stats.

[Dimcair]

I imagine in some cases it is pretty straightforward.

Target low AC? No -> Do I have a charged smite and/or hunters mark active (2d8+1d6)? Yes -> No GWM.
Target low AC? No -> Extra Dmg on hit? No -> Is the target almost dead? No -> GWM.

Having advantage in that equation (vengeance), how does that play out? Would having advantage raise the bar and you ask whether the target has a medium AC and go from there?



I remember seeing a chart/flow-sheet of some kind for all of this. With the likely hood to hit at different ACs etc., does anyone remember where that is to be found if it still exists?

/edit: found one example: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?373572-GWM-Reference-Table neat. But maybe there are also some that combine it with PAM? Not that it really should be any different should it?

[PeteNutButter]

I imagine in some cases it is pretty straightforward.
Target low AC? No -> Do I have a charged smite and/or hunters mark active (2d8+1d6)? Yes -> No GWM.
Target low AC? No -> Extra Dmg on hit? No -> Is the target almost dead? No -> GWM.
Having advantage in that equation (vengeance), how does that play out? Would having advantage raise the bar and you ask whether the target has a medium AC and go from there?
I remember seeing a chart/flow-sheet of some kind for all of this. With the likely hood to hit at different ACs etc., does anyone remember where that is to be found if it still exists?
/edit: found one example: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?373572-GWM-Reference-Table neat. But maybe there are also some that combine it with PAM? Not that it really should be any different should it?

You are over thinking it. Since you choose to smite after you hit something, the only real variable is hunter's mark. Let's use that simplified math again: 1d10+1d6+4 is your main attack if you have the mark on them. That's 13 damage. If you take a -25% chance to hit you nearly double your damage to 23. Just use the feat unless you think 13(or 13+smite) is enough to kill it. It's OP and the reason why everyone goes 2hander in this edition... again. :smallbiggrin:

[Oramac]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?373572-GWM-Reference-Table

I was going to link that thread as well.

Also, there's another thread that I can't find that goes over the AC breakpoints for using GWM, and references whether or not Advantage is taken into account.