Aboleths, Class Levels, and CR

[Thealtruistorc]

So it mentions in several books that aboleths like taking levels in spellcasting classes. The problem is, I have never actually seen an aboleth with class levels properly statted. Does each level count as +1 CR or +1/2 CR for them (it varies among other monsters), and are they capable of using weapons?

Do concrete rules exist for determining a monster's "fitting class", or does a DM just have to spitball them? What classes would Aboleths "fit" with anyway, and are they ever able to stack up to other casters if they just get one level of wizard for every +1 of CR they have? It would be great for somebody to clear this up for me.

[Sayt]

I'm away from my books at the moment, but an appendix in bestiary 1 has guide for advancing monsters levels.

Basically, if the level augments what the monster already does, it's +1. An example of this would be giving fighter levels to N udaeus or cleric levels to a daughter of Urgathoa.

If the class doesny synergise, it gives +.5 CR like if you gave an ice giant levels in rogue.


The monster codex also Included 'class templates', which lets you give a monster more or less relavant abilities. They can be found here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-class-templates

[Beheld]

So it mentions in several books that aboleths like taking levels in spellcasting classes. The problem is, I have never actually seen an aboleth with class levels properly statted.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aboleth.htm#abolethMage

Words

[Florian]

So it mentions in several books that aboleths like taking levels in spellcasting classes. The problem is, I have never actually seen an aboleth with class levels properly statted. Does each level count as +1 CR or +1/2 CR for them (it varies among other monsters), and are they capable of using weapons?

Do concrete rules exist for determining a monster's "fitting class", or does a DM just have to spitball them? What classes would Aboleths "fit" with anyway, and are they ever able to stack up to other casters if they just get one level of wizard for every +1 of CR they have? It would be great for somebody to clear this up for me.

There´s no definitive list on what classes can be considered to be "key" and "non-key" for a monster.
(Look at Table 2-4: Monsters with Class Levels in the Bestiary)

If you go by Adding Class Levels, Step 1: Determine Creature´s Role, then it should be readily apparent that a CL16/3 good mental stats/slew of SLA creature falls under the "Spell" category, making full caster classes "key", as they tend to advance all the aforementioned features.
(Yes, it says that is should only be key when spellcasting directly stacks, but it also ramps up CL and caster feats like Spell Focus will go into it...)

The best "fit" would be classes from Occult Adventures, especially Mesmerist and Psychic (No V/S/M Components needed, best for fishy tentacle types). Also compare with more advanced types of the creature, like Veiled Master and Omnipaths (or other Othagu) to see a more psychic leaning.

As for weapon/item use: If it has appendages and proficiencies, they can use them. (Aboleths are non-humanoid aberrations, so they don´t come with any automatic proficiencies)

[charcoalninja]

Psychic would be a great fit for sure. I find the standard "key class adds 1 CR" to really break down as CR advances so my recomendation would be to just make ALL class levels equal .5 a CR. For example in Monster codex they have some Fire Giants statted where a 16th level Fire Giant Oracle is CR 18 but a 10th level Ranger Fire Giant is somehow CR 20. Access to 8th level spells is somehow weaker than a small bit of extra math?

Classes are classes, add +.5 each but don't stack the levels. So a Nymph druid 1 doesn't have casting as Druid 8, instead has Druid 1 casting and Druid 7 casting. It keeps the progressions from getting beyond silly like adding sorcerer 10 to a Rakshasa.
So you don't end up with critters running around with 30th level casting.

[Florian]

Psychic would be a great fit for sure. I find the standard "key class adds 1 CR" to really break down as CR advances so my recomendation would be to just make ALL class levels equal .5 a CR. For example in Monster codex they have some Fire Giants statted where a 16th level Fire Giant Oracle is CR 18 but a 10th level Ranger Fire Giant is somehow CR 20. Access to 8th level spells is somehow weaker than a small bit of extra math?

Classes are classes, add +.5 each but don't stack the levels. So a Nymph druid 1 doesn't have casting as Druid 8, instead has Druid 1 casting and Druid 7 casting. It keeps the progressions from getting beyond silly like adding sorcerer 10 to a Rakshasa.
So you don't end up with critters running around with 30th level casting.

Part of it seems to be "obvious" vs. "hidden" synergies here.

Look at how long a regular fight takes. 3-5 rounds if minions are present. What we do talk about here is the level of havoc a creature can wreck compared to what CR actually means.

CR is the most important factor here and should be solely taken into account.

Naturally, some combinations have great synergy, but exactly that break the CR system.... Think about that.

[Tiri]

Classes are classes, add +.5 each but don't stack the levels. So a Nymph druid 1 doesn't have casting as Druid 8, instead has Druid 1 casting and Druid 7 casting. It keeps the progressions from getting beyond silly like adding sorcerer 10 to a Rakshasa.
So you don't end up with critters running around with 30th level casting.

Really? I was under the impression that the levels DO stack if the creature's casting is specified as being identical to that of a particular class.

[charcoalninja]

Yeah... A Ranger 10 Fire Giant can't wreck nearly the havock of one that wades into combat with Righteous Might and Mind blank on, then buffs all his minions with Blessing of Fervor.

There's no comparison in their capability. The synergy idea doesn't work once you're adding more than 3 levels or so of something.

EDIT:

Really? I was under the impression that the levels DO stack if the creature's casting is specified as being identical to that of a particular class.

They do RAW I was recommending you don't stack them to make the adding of class levels work in a more balanced way.

[atemu1234]

Psychic would be a great fit for sure. I find the standard "key class adds 1 CR" to really break down as CR advances so my recomendation would be to just make ALL class levels equal .5 a CR. For example in Monster codex they have some Fire Giants statted where a 16th level Fire Giant Oracle is CR 18 but a 10th level Ranger Fire Giant is somehow CR 20. Access to 8th level spells is somehow weaker than a small bit of extra math?

Classes are classes, add +.5 each but don't stack the levels. So a Nymph druid 1 doesn't have casting as Druid 8, instead has Druid 1 casting and Druid 7 casting. It keeps the progressions from getting beyond silly like adding sorcerer 10 to a Rakshasa.
So you don't end up with critters running around with 30th level casting.

Well, if the fire giant is using mostly spells, then it's essentially just a 16th level Oracle with extra HP and good physicals. It makes a little, but not much sense.

I generally just wing it. If something looks like it should be CR 18, I'll say it's CR 18. If it looks like CR 12, it'll be CR 12.

[Psyren]

The monster codex also Included 'class templates', which lets you give a monster more or less relavant abilities. They can be found here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-class-templates

This (using Sorcerer or Psychic) would be my approach, at least for the PF Aboleth. This would give it 4th-level spells and boost it to CR 9.

[Florian]

Well, if the fire giant is using mostly spells, then it's essentially just a 16th level Oracle with extra HP and good physicals. It makes a little, but not much sense.

It makes sense. We´re talking about a combat encounter here, not prep time, no divinations, no nothing, especially no time for buffing up, because that would be found in EL, not CR.

The giant ranger that was mentioned doesn´t need any of that to be a good CR encounter. It just works.

(Please don´t forget how system mastery can shift what is an good CR or EL encounter)


Really? I was under the impression that the levels DO stack if the creature's casting is specified as being identical to that of a particular class.

Yes, it does.

[charcoalninja]

It makes sense. We´re talking about a combat encounter here, not prep time, no divinations, no nothing, especially no time for buffing up, because that would be found in EL, not CR.

The giant ranger that was mentioned doesn´t need any of that to be a good CR encounter. It just works.

(Please don´t forget how system mastery can shift what is an good CR or EL encounter)



Yes, it does.

I can't believe I'm seeing this... Round 1 the Oracle could cast Divine Vessel while his minions engage the party. Giant now is:
Huge with:
+6 STR/CON
+3 Natural Armour
SR 28
Fiendish Aspect for: Fly speed of 60ft; another +2 STR, DR 10/good, resist cold, fire, acid 10; +4 saves vs. poison, see in darkness and 2 1d6 claw attacks (increased for size of course).

The ranger Fire Giant has an attack Routine of:
+1 brilliant energy greatsword +36/+31/+26/+21 (3d6+22/17–20) with only up to second level spells to enhance it.

The Oracle's is:
+2 conductive flail +35/+30/+25/+20 (2d6+12)
So with our new buff it's:
+2 conductive flail +38/+33/+28/+23 (3d6+18) plus 16d6 from Erosion touch.

He now has more HP than the Ranger due to the +3 HP per level from the CON increase for a total of: 434.
He has improved Sunder and so can shatter any weapon he wants with one attack plus Erosion touch so he doesn't have to worry about people bypassing his DR with +3 weapons.

Or he could cast Repulsion, set the barrier to equal his reach thus preventing any melee types from effectively engaging him if they fail a will save.

Even the Default spells they give him make him far more dangerous than the Ranger: Blessing of Fervor gives his whole encounter extra mobility or attacks just like Haste. Incediary Cloud is very nice battlefield control and 6d6 fire damage each round the players are in it. Blade Barrier is nasty against other casters or Fighters with crappy Reflex Saves. Mass Bulls Strength again boosts his entire encounter. Righteous Might is a baby Divine Vessel Spell.

The ranger has Cure moderate wounds, favoured enemies that aren't going to come into play that often, a lower BAB, slightly more HP, and VASTLY less utility and options in combat. Oh and terrible save throws (+14 will vs. +20 with a +4 vs. disease, death effects, mind-affecting effects, poison, sleep, stunning)

How again is the Ranger monster 2 CRs higher?

The system makes no sense and grossly overvalues the number inflation of melee roles. Hell you see this in the Bestiaries as well where a CR 20 titan becomes a CR 22 titan if its a prophet with 20th level Cleric casting! Doesn't make sense to me...

[Florian]

The system makes no sense and grossly overvalues the number inflation of melee roles. Hell you see this in the Bestiaries as well where a CR 20 titan becomes a CR 22 titan if its a prophet with 20th level Cleric casting! Doesn't make sense to me...

Well, you actually forgot what the Cr systems means and you clearly showed that.
Do think about that.

[charcoalninja]

What on earth are you talking about? I just showed that the lower CR Oracle is a more powerful opponent by every metric over the higher CR Ranger and somehow I don't know what CR means?

CR measures how hard a monster is in a fight. A higher CR mobster should be more dangerous and more difficult to defeat. Using the key class system you get results like I outlined above where markedly weaker opponents are over valued (such as the Ranger 10) compared to non key progressions.

How is this "not understanding the CR system"?

[Florian]

What on earth are you talking about? I just showed that the lower CR Oracle is a more powerful opponent by every metric over the higher CR Ranger and somehow I don't know what CR means?

CR measures how hard a monster is in a fight. A higher CR mobster should be more dangerous and more difficult to defeat. Using the key class system you get results like I outlined above where markedly weaker opponents are over valued (such as the Ranger 10) compared to non key progressions.

How is this "not understanding the CR system"?

*Sigh*

Ok, let us use the actual system and go at it from point zero.

You know how "keyed"/"Nonkeyed" works. "Keyed" advances a critters performance from the get-go. "Nonkeyed" would need more class levels than actual HD to change the role of the critter, then it turns into being "keyed"

At that point, it is important to note that an Abolish technically doesn´t fall in the "Spell" Role, but rather in the Melee role by all that is given.

For the Abolish we talk about here, you'd need to stick 8+ levels of Oracle on it to change its Role. Then all Oracle levels are counted as full and so on.

So yes, your level of Oracle aren´t wort considering until you meet the watershed line and then all things switch accordingly.

[Thealtruistorc]

*Sigh*

Ok, let us use the actual system and go at it from point zero.

You know how "keyed"/"Nonkeyed" works. "Keyed" advances a critters performance from the get-go. "Nonkeyed" would need more class levels than actual HD to change the role of the critter, then it turns into being "keyed"

At that point, it is important to note that an Abolish technically doesn´t fall in the "Spell" Role, but rather in the Melee role by all that is given.

For the Abolish we talk about here, you'd need to stick 8+ levels of Oracle on it to change its Role. Then all Oracle levels are counted as full and so on.

So yes, your level of Oracle aren´t wort considering until you meet the watershed line and then all things switch accordingly.

I've given it some thought and I think I've come up with a fairly reasonable houserule:

"A creature's class levels each add +.5 to its CR until it develops class abilities that would be on par with a player character of equal CR (for example, the fire giant would advance in Oracle levels with +.5 CR until it gains casting that would equal a human oracle of level equal to its CR). Once that point is reached, the monster advances as +1 CR for each class level given."

This not only solves the issue of creatures getting way too strong for their CR, but also enables creatures to develop high-level abilities in spite of racial hit dice. Special exceptions should of course be made for the Path of War classes (which already have a mechanic for advancement) and perhaps some very high-numbers classes like Paladins (because seriously, imagine the saves on a young adult gold dragon with tons of paladin levels).

[charcoalninja]

*Sigh*

Ok, let us use the actual system and go at it from point zero.

You know how "keyed"/"Nonkeyed" works. "Keyed" advances a critters performance from the get-go. "Nonkeyed" would need more class levels than actual HD to change the role of the critter, then it turns into being "keyed"

At that point, it is important to note that an Abolish technically doesn´t fall in the "Spell" Role, but rather in the Melee role by all that is given.

For the Abolish we talk about here, you'd need to stick 8+ levels of Oracle on it to change its Role. Then all Oracle levels are counted as full and so on.

So yes, your level of Oracle aren´t wort considering until you meet the watershed line and then all things switch accordingly.

Firstly you can ditch the condescending attitude mr. "Sigh" it has no place here.

Secondly I'm aware of how the system works, which is why I'm arguing that it shouldn't be used as written.

Thirdly, I'd love to hear how an Aboleth merits the designation of a melee monster. It's an illusion master / minionmancer with a dominate power that lasts 16 days. That it can cast from an illusory form in between controlling the battlefield via further illusion. A smashy monster it is not.

All of the Aboleth talk aside, the point is that the Keyed / Unkeyed idea doesn't work because ALL classes have phenominal powers on a monster. Sure a hill giant barbarian deals more damage via Rage, but a Hill Giant wizard has an AC 8 points higher via Mage armour and Shield. So they fight differently, because they're different but anyone who says a hill giant isn't improved dramatically by an 8 point increase to AC is out of their mind. Not to mention the giant could instead use protection from good to make it harder to take out in the usual way.

There are countless examples I could give and really there merits no reason to bias a monster more towards one class than another at this stage of the game.

[Psyren]

I don't have a dog in this fight other than to say that CR for class levels is notoriously imprecise. The difficulty increase for a monster with wizard levels (or who has the wizard creature template) will be almost wholly dependent on the specific spells you choose for it, and the same is true of most casters. An Aboleth Wizard who prepares Read Magic in every slot is probably going to be a bit more scholastic than a normal one but not appreciably harder, in spite of the class levels, whether "Key" or "Unkey."

So long as you go in expecting the CR number to be a guideline rather than gospel you're probably going to have a better time (and fewer internet arguments.)

[charcoalninja]

I don't have a dog in this fight other than to say that CR for class levels is notoriously imprecise. The difficulty increase for a monster with wizard levels (or who has the wizard creature template) will be almost wholly dependent on the specific spells you choose for it, and the same is true of most casters. An Aboleth Wizard who prepares Read Magic in every slot is probably going to be a bit more scholastic than a normal one but not appreciably harder, in spite of the class levels, whether "Key" or "Unkey."

So long as you go in expecting the CR number to be a guideline rather than gospel you're probably going to have a better time (and fewer internet arguments.)

Likewise martial levels are wholly dependant on feat / feature selection such as Rage Powers.

Thus it doesn't matter what the base form is really as unless you're slapping levels that actually don't work at all, like wizard on a 10 INT creature, they all make a potent change to the monster. Key / unkey doesn't make sense.

Adding martial levels to a monster is adding more universally applicable features (ie Math) but low level casting adds far more powerful features.
Rage = +2 to hit.
Mage Armour + Shield = +8 AC for example.

[meschlum]

Also not particularly concerned by the issue, but did want to point out that the CR calculations with class levels are bit more complex than described.

Quoting monster advancement (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-advancement) (bolding mine):


Table: Monsters with Class Levels gives general guidelines regarding which core classes add directly to a monster's abilities based on its role (see Monsters by Role). Classes that are marked “key” generally add 1 to a creature's CR for each level added. Classes marked with a “—” increase a creature's CR by 1 for every 2 class levels added until the number of levels added are equal to (or exceed) the creature's original CR, at which point they are treated as “key” levels (adding 1 to the creature's CR for each level added). Creatures that fall into multiple roles treat a class as key if either of its roles treat the class as key. Note that levels in NPC classes are never considered key.

So the example Fire Giant / Oracle would be CR 15 as a Fire Giant Oracle 10 (much worse casting than an Oracle 15, much better personal combat skills), and then CR goes up 1 for 1, so Oracle 16 would be CR 21. It may not be a good estimate, but it's more than the CR 20 for a Fire Giant / Ranger 10 - a Fire Giant / Oracle 15 is CR 20 by these rules.

As to whether 10 levels of Ranger are worth as much as 15 levels of Oracle... at level 20, with action advantage and caster level loss, maybe? In any case, I'm just interjecting for the math, not the conclusions drawn from it.


Then you get the 'play as a monster' rules, which do things differently. A Fire Giant is a 10th level character. Better BAB, Strength, and hit points (at least) than a Fighter 10, much less customization. Then, when your party hits level 13, you have picked up 4 levels of any class. Ranger or Oracle. The same happens at party levels 16 and 19, so at level 20, you have a Fire Giant / Oracle 13 or Fire Giant / Ranger 13 as equivalent to a 20th level character. It's something of a miracle the numbers end up being even sort of close.


Edit: also, level 20 dispel magic versus wizard 1 Shield and Mage armor = no more +8 to AC. Assuming you're a fire giant without armor (Fire giants get +8 from their armor, so Mage Armor isn't really applicable). Or just waiting 1 minute for the Shield to vanish works too. Action advantage is a thing, if numbers and context are both invoked.

[charcoalninja]

Monster Codex says otherwise here's the verbatum entry from the PRD:
----------////
Fire Giant Doombringer
With a single pronouncement from a doombringer, an entire settlement can be reduced to cinder and ash.

FIRE GIANT DOOMBRINGER CR 18
XP 153,600
Fire giant oracle 16
LE Large humanoid (fire, giant)
Init +6; Senses low-light vision; Perception +32
DEFENSE

AC 32, touch 12, flat-footed 30 (+9 armor, +1 deflection, +2 Dex, +8 natural, +3 shield, –1 size)
hp 341 (31d8+202)
Fort +20, Ref +12, Will +20; +4 vs. disease, death effects, mind-affecting effects, poison, sleep, stunning
Defensive Abilities rock catching; DR 2/—; Immune fire
Weaknesses vulnerable to cold
OFFENSE

Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 conductive flail +35/+30/+25/+20 (2d6+12)
Ranged rock +25 (1d8+14 plus 1d6 fire)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks heated rock, rock throwing (120 ft.)
Oracle Spells Known (CL 16th; concentration +22)
8th (3/day)—fire storm (DC 24), incendiary cloud (DC 24), mass inflict critical wounds (DC 24)
7th (5/day)—blasphemy (DC 23), destruction (DC 23), mass inflict serious wounds (DC 23), vision (DC 23)
6th (7/day)—barrier blade, circle of death (DC 22), harm (DC 22), mass bull's strength, mass inflict moderate wounds (DC 22)
5th (7/day)—dispel good (DC 21), greater command (DC 21), insect plague (DC 21), mass inflict light wounds (DC 21), righteous might, slay living (DC 21)
4th (7/day)—blessing of fervor, greater magic weapon, ice storm (DC 20), imbue with spell ability, inflict critical wounds (DC 20), unholy blight (DC 20)
3rd (7/day)—dispel magic, inflict serious wounds (DC 19), invisibility purge, magic circle against good, stone shape, explosive runes
2nd (8/day)—bear's endurance, darkness, death knell (DC 18), inflict moderate wounds, oracle's burden (DC 18), share language, summon swarm
1st (8/day)—bane (DC 17), cause fear (DC 17), deathwatch, doom (DC 17), inflict light wounds (DC 17), obscuring mist, shield of faith
0 (at will)—bleed (DC 16), create water, detect magic, detect poison, purify food and drink, guidance, read magic, resistance, spark
Mystery apocalypse*
STATISTICS

Str 31, Dex 15, Con 23, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 22
Base Atk +23; CMB +34 (+36 overrun, +36 sunder); CMD 47 (49 vs. overrun, 49 vs. sunder)
Feats Cleave, Combat Casting, Critical Focus, Empower Spell, Extra Revelation, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Martial Weapon Proficiency (flail), Maximize Spell, Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Selective Spell, Weapon Focus (flail)
Skills Climb +19, Craft (armor) +8, Heal +21, Intimidate +17, Perception +32, Spellcraft +34
Languages Common, Giant; tongues
SQ oracle's curse (tongues ), revelations (doomsayer [30 ft., swift action], erosion touch [16d6, 5/day], near death, pass the torch [4/day, up to 8 rounds], power of the fallen [6/day], spell blast)
Combat Gear potions of cure serious wounds (3), scroll of mass bear's endurance, scroll of wall of stone, wand of bestow curse (15 charges); Other Gear +3 unrighteous adamantine breastplate, +2 light steel shield, +2 conductive flail, belt of physical might +2 (Str, Dex), headband of alluring charisma +4, ring of protection +1, spell component pouch, 495 gp


--------------

So yeah. CR 18... While a Ranger 10 is CR 20...

Edit:
Oh for sure a dispel screws low CLs, but that's soaking an action from the caster that would otherwise be spent killing people, and if the spell is up for even 1 or 2 rounds you're looking at it mitigating a tonne of potential damage.

[Psyren]

Likewise martial levels are wholly dependant on feat / feature selection such as Rage Powers.

Right, but martial levels do at least have a tougher basic chassis - d10 or d12 hd for instance, proficiencies and full BAB. Even if you intentionally take "bad" feats and rage powers, you're at least not making diluting the monster's own HD (unless they're a dragon or outsider.)

If you do the same with wizard HD though and prepare the wrong spells, you're actively becoming weaker - d6, 1/2 BAB, weak physical saves, and no added proficiencies.



Adding martial levels to a monster is adding more universally applicable features (ie Math) but low level casting adds far more powerful features.
Rage = +2 to hit.
Mage Armour + Shield = +8 AC for example.

That's assuming the monster selects such useful spells. You could instead, for instance, roll on a table to see what magic it randomly unlocks or comes across, and end up with things like Hold Portal, Restore Corpse and Alarm. And even if you pick the right spells, low levels also mean low caster level, with said useful spells not necessarily being available when you need them.

[charcoalninja]

Right, but martial levels do at least have a tougher basic chassis - d10 or d12 hd for instance, proficiencies and full BAB. Even if you intentionally take "bad" feats and rage powers, you're at least not making diluting the monster's own HD (unless they're a dragon or outsider.)

If you do the same with wizard HD though and prepare the wrong spells, you're actively becoming weaker - d6, 1/2 BAB, weak physical saves, and no added proficiencies.



That's assuming the monster selects such useful spells. You could instead, for instance, roll on a table to see what magic it randomly unlocks or comes across, and end up with things like Hold Portal, Restore Corpse and Alarm. And even if you pick the right spells, low levels also mean low caster level, with said useful spells not necessarily being available when you need them.

Yes, if as a DM you assign class levels to a monster and then make said levels useless, your monster will suck. I said as much in my post, martial classes have ubiquitus effects (better math) while caster classes have more potent effects (though more counterable). Personally they balance out nicely in my mind and I feel you should .5 level every class until the Class level = CR level is reached and then 1 for 1 it as per the Unkeyed rules. Just do away with "Keyed" and I feel the system works better.

[Florian]

Firstly you can ditch the condescending attitude mr. "Sigh" it has no place here.

Secondly I'm aware of how the system works, which is why I'm arguing that it shouldn't be used as written.

Thirdly, I'd love to hear how an Aboleth merits the designation of a melee monster. It's an illusion master / minionmancer with a dominate power that lasts 16 days. That it can cast from an illusory form in between controlling the battlefield via further illusion. A smashy monster it is not.

All of the Aboleth talk aside, the point is that the Keyed / Unkeyed idea doesn't work because ALL classes have phenominal powers on a monster. Sure a hill giant barbarian deals more damage via Rage, but a Hill Giant wizard has an AC 8 points higher via Mage armour and Shield. So they fight differently, because they're different but anyone who says a hill giant isn't improved dramatically by an 8 point increase to AC is out of their mind. Not to mention the giant could instead use protection from good to make it harder to take out in the usual way.

There are countless examples I could give and really there merits no reason to bias a monster more towards one class than another at this stage of the game.

Let us disentangle this and get on track.

Problem with the Aboleth is that it actually has no inherent spell casting ability besides its SLAs. You start piling on full caster class levels, you only net indirect power gain due to feat synergy and you will probably not use direct spell casting until the CL begins to be competitive.

Unless you pile on enough caster levels to equal or exceed base CR, this levels simple aren´t interesting in any way. Aboleth Wizard 2? Yeah, sure... hurray for Mage Armor and Shield.

And that simply is the problem with HD-based creatures, especially when they are above the two digit line. Either you turn them into full spell casters, or those levels are wasted.

A Fire Giant Bard 1 is a giant with a funny hat. A Fire Giant Bard 16 is a fully trained Bard who happens to be a fire giant.

And I think that showcases the important point behind the whole keyed/nonkeyed mechanic: Do the class levels directly contribute to performance? More important: Do they alter how you handle the creature in combat?

Aboleth and Fire Giant are good examples for this, because you need to pile on massive amount of casters class levels (16+) to make them primary casters instead of SLA-slingers or melee brutes with some back up mojo.

What you seem to talk about are the very small and very irrelevant pre-combat buffs that can be had in any way, from potions to whatever. What I talk about is the point when you switch from it being "a monster" to it being "class XY" in combat.

[meschlum]

Monster Codex says otherwise here's the verbatum entry from the PRD:
----------////
Fire Giant Doombringer
With a single pronouncement from a doombringer, an entire settlement can be reduced to cinder and ash.

FIRE GIANT DOOMBRINGER CR 18
XP 153,600
Fire giant oracle 16
LE Large humanoid (fire, giant)

(snip)
--------------

So yeah. CR 18... While a Ranger 10 is CR 20...

Edit:
Oh for sure a dispel screws low CLs, but that's soaking an action from the caster that would otherwise be spent killing people, and if the spell is up for even 1 or 2 rounds you're looking at it mitigating a tonne of potential damage.

It's not in the pfsrd, which may be slightly more edited. And the math is wrong by their rules, but that shouldn't be a surprise. No idea whether it's in the errata, and don't care enough to check - as I said, I'm in this for the math.

[Florian]

It's not in the pfsrd, which may be slightly more edited. And the math is wrong by their rules, but that shouldn't be a surprise. No idea whether it's in the errata, and don't care enough to check - as I said, I'm in this for the math.

Hm? You can find it on the PRD. The navigation point is "Monster Codex".
Where do you think the math has gone wrong here?

[meschlum]

Hm? You can find it on the PRD. The navigation point is "Monster Codex".
Where do you think the math has gone wrong here?

PRD, yes. pfsrd, no. Slightly different sites, slightly different content.

Based on the PRD Fire Giant Magus example, they're adding 1/2 of spellcasting levels to the CR no matter how many are added, which goes against the rule (add up to CR non associated levels at 1/2, then it's 1 for 1). So Oracle 16 on a CR 10 Fire Giant should be: 10 base (Fire Giant) + 5 (1/2 of oracle levels 1 to 10) + 6 (Oracle levels 11 to 16). Total CR 21. Amusingly, if you did the math the other way around (Oracle 16 + 10 / 2 non-associated CR from Fire Giant) you'd also get CR 21 - since you're taking the base CR (10) + 1/2 for non associated levels (5) + (any levels over 10) either way. It doesn't work for anything below Oracle 10, though, since you can't split Fire Giant CR (Oracle 8 / Fire Giant is CR 13 if Fire Giant is wholly non-associated and CR 18 if it is wholly associated, Fire Giant / Oracle 8 is CR 14).

I'd guess they thought that the 1/2 rule applies until you've added the full CR (so 2 * CR levels of a class) (or worse, full hit dice), which is extremely broken (a Fire Giant / Wizard 20 is not equivalent to a Wizard 20 - though one could argue it's close as more hit points and combat power aren't really going to matter much).

[charcoalninja]

Let us disentangle this and get on track.

Problem with the Aboleth is that it actually has no inherent spell casting ability besides its SLAs. You start piling on full caster class levels, you only net indirect power gain due to feat synergy and you will probably not use direct spell casting until the CL begins to be competitive.

Unless you pile on enough caster levels to equal or exceed base CR, this levels simple aren´t interesting in any way. Aboleth Wizard 2? Yeah, sure... hurray for Mage Armor and Shield.

And that simply is the problem with HD-based creatures, especially when they are above the two digit line. Either you turn them into full spell casters, or those levels are wasted.

A Fire Giant Bard 1 is a giant with a funny hat. A Fire Giant Bard 16 is a fully trained Bard who happens to be a fire giant.

And I think that showcases the important point behind the whole keyed/nonkeyed mechanic: Do the class levels directly contribute to performance? More important: Do they alter how you handle the creature in combat?

Aboleth and Fire Giant are good examples for this, because you need to pile on massive amount of casters class levels (16+) to make them primary casters instead of SLA-slingers or melee brutes with some back up mojo.

What you seem to talk about are the very small and very irrelevant pre-combat buffs that can be had in any way, from potions to whatever. What I talk about is the point when you switch from it being "a monster" to it being "class XY" in combat.

While it doesn't have "casts spells as X" it's primary actions in combat are uses SLAs which makes it a spell class monster. Aboleth Wizard 2 has drastically higher defenses (mage armour + Shield), additional utility beyond its dominate ability via Charm Person, speed via expeditious retreat or enhanced combat ability via Longarm, or even True Strike. Point is every class has options that directly improve the monster and so classes should be more equivolently valued on their own merits not on some theoretical synergy.