DM Help How much equiptment for a dragon? [Archive]

Alejandro

2016-03-07, 09:13 AM

5e is really low on magic item and stuff, but I'm recently fleshing out an adult green dragon (lair, kobolds, mercenaries and subdued Orc tribe included) and I was thinking what magic items should I equip this guy with? If any? In centuries of existence such a creature had surely had made some things for it to boost its combat abilities/survivability. I was thinking of deducting item value of loot the dragin is supposed to have.

But this is 5e, dragons may not have circlets of Power, Rings of Greater invisibility and Rings of AMFs as standard equiptment, so i wonder:

- should i even equip this guy?

- what should I hive him?

thanks

Take it from someone whose party fights, and has been wrecked by, dragons: They don't need magic items buffing them. They are more than capable of smashing some PCs by themselves, especially in their Lair. Unless a party has advance knowledge of what items the dragon is using and the right spells prepped to counter them, a dragon with, say, several attuned items is going to TPK them, unless they are way above its (adjusted) CL.

lebefrei

2016-03-07, 09:32 AM

A well played dragon needs no magic items. They keep them out of pride, greed, and to draw in more foolish adventurers.

Anyone who has ever killed a CR appropriate 5e dragon and called it easy was playing against a DM that doesn't understand dragons (flight and intelligent tactics).

They, just like PCs, are balanced without magic items. Give them nothing unless your players are also loaded up.

Lines

2016-03-07, 09:57 AM

First off: You'll get a lot of people saying badly thought out stuff like dragons are too proud to wear magic items or that said magic items are part of their hoard. These people are 100% wrong - dragons are very old, magical, powerful, rich and intelligent creatures, they'll be attuned to useful items because they're rivalled by other old, magical, powerful, rich and intelligent creatures, the ones who were too stupid to take 20 levels of wizard or what have you and wear useful items will have been destroyed by the dragons who weren't that dumb. If you're wondering whether a dragon that acts intelligently and has a bunch of class levels and magic items is too strong, the answer is kind of - yes, they'll be more difficult to beat but a dragon should be the most difficult thing to beat in D&D anyway, and this way you don't have the verisimilitude destroying idea of a naked, spell-less, classless dragon who somehow has survived against the other dragons who weren't so stupid. They're incredibly intelligent and experienced beings, not acquiring easy power that has no downsides makes no sense for them.

Any dragon other than a white should have a bunch of levels in wizard, sorcerer or something else appropriate to their personality (cleric or paladin for a devout follower of Bahamut, I'd expect a fair few silver bards, barbarian for a particularly combat focused one). They're hundreds of years old and innately magical, wizardry or an equivalent is well within their reach and any dragon of reasonable intelligence will grab it - again, natural selection at work, the ones who don't will get destroyed by those who do, sitting around naked and not improving yourself will lead you to being destroyed and your hoard stolen by the magic item covered red dragon who has been scrying your weaknesses, has cast foresight on himself and has made himself immune to your breath weapon. One who probably has dragon scale mail and a dragon slayer weapon.

Now, onto magic items: 'In most cases, a magic item that's meant to be worn can fit a creature regardless of size or build'. So, a dragon (as long as they're allowed to ignore the AC change, if the DM's pedantic they'll need to wear some armour so it doesn't apply) who can acquire a robe of the archmagi will definitely wear it, advantage on saves against spells and +2 to their saves and spell attacks is great, if they can't find one they may also try to acquire a spellguard shield (it only needs to be strapped to an arm) or a mantle of spell resistance. Remember the attunement limit is 3, a dragon will also like (these are just ideas, items will depend on what the dragon can find/make and personality):

Bracers of defense for +2 AC, cape of the mountebank for non attunement requiring dimension door, cloak of invisibility because combat persistent invisibility is great, cloak of protection is a good booster for a young dragon, dancing sword if they're a class that doesn't have much use for bonus actions, helm of teleportation if their class doesn't have teleport, ioun stones of greater absorption, mastery or protection, stat increasing manuals or tomes, nolzur's marvelous pigments if they're the creative type, potions of fire breath plus a way to alter their skin colour in order to pretend they're a different type of dragon only to reveal their true colours (heh) after their misdirection has played out, ring of earth elemental command to glide through rocks, a +3 shield (+5 AC is worth strapping/holding it in one of their 4 limbs), staff of the magi if they're caster inclined, a talisman of ultimate evil if they live in the deep end of the alignment pool, a tome of the stilled tongue for an extra 9th level spell as a caster and lastly the DMG doesn't have an amulet of natural attacks style item but logically one must exist or monks get boned, pretty much any dragon would acquire that.

Pinjata

2016-03-07, 10:44 AM

Can monsters in 5e even take class levels? What is appropriate loot value for adult red in 5e anyway?

Ninja_Prawn

2016-03-07, 10:44 AM

Snip

This is all fine, if you assume that all dragons are optimising murderhobos who have devoted their lives to the accumulation of personal power. Maybe some of them are - I could definitely see a lot of black and green dragons following this philosophy - but others might be more nuanced. Dragons aren't adventurers, after all. Thinking about typical personalities, a blue might seek to tool itself up if a brass dragon is threatening it, and most bronze dragons would have some wargear at their disposal, but why would a gold or silver dragon bother? They live most of their lives in isolation or disguise anyway.

And if we're rolling hoards as rewards for players (as most of use seem to be), there's a severe limit to the number of magic items any one dragon might possess and a good chance they've just never found any that were useful to them. A young dragon might not have had time to accumulate much wealth yet, and many of the items they'd desire would be lost or well-guarded.

And from a metagame angle, 'dragon with magic items' is probably more fun as an occasional change-up, rather than the default position.

Ronnocius

2016-03-07, 10:51 AM

Dragons should have a few magic items, but very little. Maybe one for an adult. Choose something that would be fitting, like a ring or cap. I wouldn't have him use a cloak, robe, or armor though. A staff and wand don't make a lot of sense in my opinion.

Some ideas:

- eyes of charming

- Iron bands of Bilarro(?)

- Ioun stones

Lines

2016-03-07, 10:57 AM

Can monsters in 5e even take class levels? What is appropriate loot value for adult red in 5e anyway?

They're intelligent, innately magical and have access to much knowledge, why wouldn't a dragon be able to become a wizard? Or, considering the draconic bloodline sorcerer's source of power is that they have a dragon ancestor, why wouldn't it make sense that any dragon who wanted to be could be a great sorcerer?

This is all fine, if you assume that all dragons are optimising murderhobos who have devoted their lives to the accumulation of personal power. Maybe some of them are - I could definitely see a lot of black and green dragons following this philosophy - but others might be more nuanced. Dragons aren't adventurers, after all. Thinking about typical personalities, a blue might seek to tool itself up if a brass dragon is threatening it, and most bronze dragons would have some wargear at their disposal, but why would a gold or silver dragon bother? They live most of their lives in isolation or disguise anyway.

And if we're rolling hoards as rewards for players (as most of use seem to be), there's a severe limit to the number of magic items any one dragon might possess and a good chance they've just never found any that were useful to them. A young dragon might not have had time to accumulate much wealth yet, and many of the items they'd desire would be lost or well-guarded.

And from a metagame angle, 'dragon with magic items' is probably more fun as an occasion change-up, rather than the default position.
Metagaming be damned, my worlds make sense. If a dragon has magic items and a bunch of wizard levels, how is it an occasional change-up considering it should have killed the dragons who haven't done that and taken their hoard?

And yes, a young dragon won't have much wealth, and probably won't have had the time to achieve that many class levels either. I kind of figure magic items and class levels would naturally scale with age, not expecting to see a wyrmling flittering around in robes of the archmagi.

Dragon and optimisation wise, I could easily see silvers and especially golds being the exception, they're the most powerful and silvers are very gregarious and will have a lot of allies, if any dragon is going to survive untold centuries without having to really think about what they're doing then it's them. I'm more talking the ambitious, chromatic kind of dragon and the smarter individuals from the metallic series - for a chromatic dragon it's a necessity, for a chromatic it's kind of like combat training in the modern day, nice as a precaution or if it's part of what you do but not necessary to survive.

Dragons should have a few magic items, but very little. Maybe one for an adult. Choose something that would be fitting, like a ring or cap. I wouldn't have him use a cloak, robe, or armor though. A staff and wand don't make a lot of sense in my opinion.
Sure they do! Most magic items rescale to fit the wearer, though armour's unnecessary considering it won't improve their defenses at all. And it depends on the staff or wand, I can see several being pretty useful for a dragon. Regarding the number you have, you needa base it on how magic items work in your setting - origin wise somebody has to have made those magic items, and I honestly can't think of a more likely creator than a rich, knowledgable, intelligent and magically powerful dragon.

EvilAnagram

2016-03-07, 11:10 AM

snip

So, your argument is that dragons:

Are aware of class levels as more than an abstraction for players to interact with the word, but rather as an integral, diegetic fact of the reality in which they live.
Are necessarily in an arms race with other magical creatures.
Understand the rules of magic items to a degree by which they may abuse them.
Utilize magic items that are typically made by humanoids, for humanoid-sized creatures.

Furthermore, you wish to suggest that the DM, the arbiter of the rules whose job is to create play balanced for maximum fun, should ignore the massive increase in difficulty that accompanies these changes.

Have I missed anything?

Pinjata

2016-03-07, 11:16 AM

Maybe I was unclear on one thing, so let me put them here.

I want my dragons to COMPLETELLY and UTTERLY obey RAW. If 5e does not provide an option to give class levels to a dragon, then dragon gets no class levels. There is an option to make them spellcasters, but not just take class levels.

They're intelligent, innately magical and have access to much knowledge, why wouldn't a dragon be able to become a wizard? Or, considering the draconic bloodline sorcerer's source of power is that they have a dragon ancestor, why wouldn't it make sense that any dragon who wanted to be could be a great sorcerer?

Even if your intentions were good, Lines (and I do appreciate them), this is for me almost freeform. Completelly out of RAW and in my case, completelly unacceptable.

BUT! Since I see how you like to optimize things I'd REALLY APPRECIATE you suggesting magic items withing dragon wealth described by core books. Still, as I see it - most magic items DO NOT HAVE A PRICE in 5e. So I guess it would be fair to use only those that have value.

As a DM I like to obey these constraints, while demanding the same form my palyers when shaping their PCs.

EvilAnagram

2016-03-07, 11:19 AM

Magic items have price ranges set in the DMG.

Pinjata

2016-03-07, 11:21 AM

Magic items have price ranges set in the DMG.
Indeed? What page, may I ask? Or you are talking just about potions?

Ninja_Prawn

2016-03-07, 11:25 AM

If 5e does not provide an option to give class levels to a dragon, then dragon gets no class levels. There is an option to make them spellcasters, but not just take class levels.

What is a class level, apart from a hit die and some class features? You're free to give a monster as many hit dice as you like, and the books explicitly say you can give them spellcasting (a class feature), so I'd argue that it follows that 'monsters with class levels' can be a thing. I've recently used a centaur with paladin levels to good effect, for example. You just have to make sure you recalculate the CR. :smallsmile:

Lines

2016-03-07, 11:27 AM

So, your argument is that dragons:

Are aware of class levels as more than an abstraction for players to interact with the word, but rather as an integral, diegetic fact of the reality in which they live.
Are necessarily in an arms race with other magical creatures.
Understand the rules of magic items to a degree by which they may abuse them.
Utilize magic items that are typically made by humanoids, for humanoid-sized creatures.

Furthermore, you wish to suggest that the DM, the arbiter of the rules whose job is to create play balanced for maximum fun, should ignore the massive increase in difficulty that accompanies these changes.

Have I missed anything?
Yeah, quite a few things.

They don't need to be aware of class level as an abstraction to become a wizard or some such, they just need to study magic.
You've missed nothing there. Chromatic dragons are ruthless, avaricious, cunning and not known for their great stores of mercy - if a centuries old red dragon who has mastered the arcane (seriously if a human can do it in a lifetime, a more intelligent dragon can get it done easily in their much greater lifespan) and is further empowered by magical dragons finds out that a neighbouring green dragon has neglected to equip himself or learn magic or empower itself in some other way, what is to stop it using its divinations to ascertain the green dragon's vulnerabilities, equipping of buffing itself with resistance to poison, scrying out entry points and then teleporting in and killing it and taking its hoard? It then follows that a green dragon must be either extremely lucky, empowered in some other manner or similarly equipped and beknowledged to survive long past obtaining a hoard worth caring about.
In what way did I suggest that? And in what way is a dragon not going to understand 'this ioun stone makes me better at everything, I should wear it'? Again, wise and intelligent creatures of great experience.
The DMG specifically states most items resize, and I somehow doubt creatures smarter, more powerful, older and richer than humanoids don't do crafting of their own.

Furthermore, I wish to suggest that the DM makes his world make sense. You don't have to if you don't want to, but I prefer worlds in which B flows logically from A rather than being arbitrary and inconsistent. And he shouldn't ignore the massive increase in difficulty, obviously it should increase the effective challenge rating.

Pinjata

2016-03-07, 11:29 AM

What is a class level, apart from a hit die and some class features? You're free to give a monster as many hit dice as you like, and the books explicitly say you can give them spellcasting (a class feature), so I'd argue that it follows that 'monsters with class levels' can be a thing. I've recently used a centaur with paladin levels to good effect, for example. You just have to make sure you recalculate the CR. :smallsmile:

I don't care what you did. RAW states you can give specifically defined spellcasting powers to dragons (MM p.86) and that's it.

I'D REALLY APPRECIATE THAT ALL NON-RAW INCLINED POSTERS RELOCATE SOMEWHERE ELSE.

Also I ask for all claims to be supported with page numbers from core from this post on.

Lines

2016-03-07, 11:31 AM

Maybe I was unclear on one thing, so let me put them here.

I want my dragons to COMPLETELLY and UTTERLY obey RAW. If 5e does not provide an option to give class levels to a dragon, then dragon gets no class levels. There is an option to make them spellcasters, but not just take class levels.

Even if your intentions were good, Lines (and I do appreciate them), this is for me almost freeform. Completelly out of RAW and in my case, completelly unacceptable.

BUT! Since I see how you like to optimize things I'd REALLY APPRECIATE you suggesting magic items withing dragon wealth described by core books. Still, as I see it - most magic items DO NOT HAVE A PRICE in 5e. So I guess it would be fair to use only those that have value.

As a DM I like to obey these constraints, while demanding the same form my palyers when shaping their PCs.

It isn't against RAW though. The DMG never says they can't take class levels, and are you suggesting that dragons can't become sorcerers or wizards? Class levels seem to require intelligence which dragons have in abundance - are players made of some special substance which enables them to be clerics, but prevents a devout dragon of Bahamut being granted spells?

lebefrei

2016-03-07, 11:39 AM

Lines

2016-03-07, 11:43 AM

If this is a 100% RAW topic then no, dragons should not use magic items. They're entirely balanced (or more) without needing them. It'll only make them stronger, and your adventurers may not be able to handle that.

That's not how RAW works. RAW handles what the rules say you can and can't do, and there's nothing in the rules that say a dragon can't use magic items.

manny2510

2016-03-07, 11:55 AM

Just slap on the spellcasting variant. God, this is so tedious, if you are unwilling to creatively build upon what WOTC gave you just play HOTDM. NO, THE DRAGON IS NOT META-GAMING IF THEY WANT TO CAST SPELLS. Honestly Dragons ARE MURDERHOBOS, oh see that nice hamlet with women and children, GONE, hey, look a wizard's spellbook was in the general store, looks interesting. Dragons can take as many class levels as you want them to have and they will be able to use magic items in their lair, so make sure to up their CR and dole out EXP. I'm being a little rude with my caps, but I also want to encourage customized enemies in general.

eastmabl

2016-03-07, 12:03 PM

That's not how RAW works. RAW handles what the rules say you can and can't do, and there's nothing in the rules that say a dragon can't use magic items.

Also, magic items resize for their wearer. There's no limitation on size in the RAW, so a dragon could wear them.

Lines

2016-03-07, 12:11 PM

Also, magic items resize for their wearer. There's no limitation on size in the RAW, so a dragon could wear them.

I am aware of this fact =P

The DMG specifically states most items resize

Most magic items rescale to fit the wearer

EvilAnagram

2016-03-07, 01:31 PM

Indeed? What page, may I ask? Or you are talking just about potions?

I'm AFB, but it's right before the section on magic items. It gives price ranges for common, uncommon, rare, and very rare items. This is supposed to represent the prices players can expect at an auction or from a very specialized dealer

TheTeaMustFlow

2016-03-07, 01:54 PM

I'd personally not have Dragons with class levels*, but I don't see why most dragons wouldn't use any useful magic items they possess. It's one thing to suggest that dragons are proud, and that this pride might cloud their judgement. It is quite another thing to say that they are generally proud to an actively self-destructive degree, which 'refusing to use magic items in lethal combat against a threatening foe purely on grounds of pride' qualifies as. Indeed, I would argue that refusing to use magic items would be highly out of character for many dragon breeds - Green Dragons, for example, are noted for their cunning, treachery, and general dislike of anything that smacks of fair play. It would seem highly unlikely for your average Green to not use every advantage available to them.

However, many magic items aren't of much use to most dragons. Magic arms and armour, for example, are completely useless, except to a Metallic in humanoid form (and one imagines even metallics do most of their fighting as dragons). Similarly, anything that one would need hands to use is of rather dubious utility. On the other hand, most magic belts, jewellery, etc. would be of at least some use to a Dragon. Most Dragons might not go out of their way to find them, and thus item-using Dragons might be somewhat rare, but I see no good reason they wouldn't wear a perfectly good Ring of Protection if they happened to have one.

*I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with, say, giving a dragon that's particularly into magic the spellcasting feature, but I'd handle them using NPC statblocks rather than PC levels. And that's going into homebrew anyway, and as Manny so, um, eloquently pointed out, we already have rules for caster dragons right there in the MM on Page 86.

Zaq

2016-03-07, 02:00 PM

DMG pg. 283 discusses adding class levels to monsters, and putting Wizard levels on an ancient red dragon is actually one of the printed examples.

CantigThimble

2016-03-07, 02:07 PM

DMG pg. 283 discusses adding class levels to monsters, and putting Wizard levels on an ancient red dragon is actually one of the printed examples.

I feel obligated to state that the entire DMG consists of optional rules and saying Dragons can have class levels is just as much RAW as saying players can craft magic items. Meaning it isn't possible according to RAW unless the DM specifically wants it to be the case and adds it in.

EvilAnagram

2016-03-07, 02:19 PM

They don't need to be aware of class level as an abstraction to become a wizard or some such, they just need to study magic.
Classes are more than just knowing spells. They entail many abilities beyond spells known, and if your goal is to give them spells the MM already provides suggestions for doing that outside of class levels, which are specifically meant for players. I mean, really, it's a bit silly in a game in which players and monsters are designed asymmetrically.

And doesn't it seem a bit strange for a dragon to study magic? It would be like an Efreet studying fire. This goes beyond gilding the lily. Dragons are intrinsically magical creatures who perceive the weave of magic in ways that mortals cannot comprehend, but that one gets the latest scholarly journals, so he gets a boost. You're painting a diamond.

You've missed nothing there.
I think you have, though. Inclination and necessity are not the same thing, nor is nature an imperative.

In what way did I suggest that?
Your suggested builds seemed to rely on intimate knowledge of how attunement works to maximize the boosts

The DMG specifically states most items resize.
Yes, but it's operating under the assumption that players will be using them (they're in the player rewards section), and PCs are all humanoids, so the resizing is under the assumption that the user is humanoid. The difference in size between a human and a dragon are considerably greater than the difference in size between a goliath and a halfling.

Furthermore, I wish to suggest that the DM makes his world make sense.
And I think metagaming dragons break immersion.

Zaq

2016-03-07, 02:25 PM

I feel obligated to state that the entire DMG consists of optional rules and saying Dragons can have class levels is just as much RAW as saying players can craft magic items. Meaning it isn't possible according to RAW unless the DM specifically wants it to be the case and adds it in.

That . . . doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Like, I understand that the DMG is mostly considered guidelines instead of rules, but I take issue with the idea that monsters with class levels "isn't possible according to RAW." The DMG tells the DM how to do it. The MM says that the DMG has rules for it (MM pg. 4: "[The DMG] also contains [. . .] advice for modifying monsters and creating your own." MM pg. 6: "For advice on how to customize creatures and calculate their challenge ratings, see the Dungeon Master's Guide."). There's nothing saying that a monster cannot or should not have class levels, and there IS text saying that the DM can add class levels to a monster, so in what universe is that "not RAW"?

I mean, yeah, the DMG is "guidelines" rather than ironclad rules, but both the DMG and the MM (and the general process of generating monsters) are under the DM's purview anyway. If putting class levels on a monster "isn't RAW," then neither is designing an encounter or creating a dungeon or rolling on a treasure table or doing anything else involving running the game, at which point we're not actually saying anything useful.

CantigThimble

2016-03-07, 02:36 PM

It isn't against RAW though. The DMG never says they can't take class levels, and are you suggesting that dragons can't become sorcerers or wizards? Class levels seem to require intelligence which dragons have in abundance - are players made of some special substance which enables them to be clerics, but prevents a devout dragon of Bahamut being granted spells?

Zaq, I was mostly just trying to present a counterpoint to this kind of statement. The way Lines explains it it sounds like if dragons don't have class levels you're doing it wrong according to RAW. All I'm saying is that is not the case. Class levels are not something that monsters can ever have unless optional rules are in place regarding this. It's not a huge point and you are correct that in context of a game it won't really matter much but I think it's important to have the distinction for the purposes of discussion.

Lines

2016-03-07, 04:30 PM

Zaq, I was mostly just trying to present a counterpoint to this kind of statement. The way Lines explains it it sounds like if dragons don't have class levels you're doing it wrong according to RAW. All I'm saying is that is not the case. Class levels are not something that monsters can ever have unless optional rules are in place regarding this. It's not a huge point and you are correct that in context of a game it won't really matter much but I think it's important to have the distinction for the purposes of discussion.

According to RAW and intent, the tarrasque is the most powerful and difficult to defeat monster in the game. We all know the tarrasque is not the most powerful and difficult monster in the game, typically being as difficult to defeat as things half its CR and in fact soloable by anyone with access to flight and magic damage. What the book says is true about your game and what is actually are regularly completely different, and if in your game world the tarrasque is reputed to be a dreaded world slayer, eater of dragons and the bane of wizards then either the reputation's undeserved or you're flat out wrong considering any big dragon is far far smarter than a tarrasque and could easily destroy it despite lower CR and no wizard with a brain would lose to one. Ditto, while the book for some weird reason expects your dragons to be classless and itemless, I can't see your average blue dragon surviving the predations of other dragons who have such things long without having such things itself.

And there is no distinction, such things are as RAW as anything else in the DMG. It tells you how to modify creatures, doing so is no more or less RAW than magic items existing.

Lines

2016-03-07, 04:50 PM

Classes are more than just knowing spells. They entail many abilities beyond spells known, and if your goal is to give them spells the MM already provides suggestions for doing that outside of class levels, which are specifically meant for players. I mean, really, it's a bit silly in a game in which players and monsters are designed asymmetrically.

And doesn't it seem a bit strange for a dragon to study magic? It would be like an Efreet studying fire. This goes beyond gilding the lily. Dragons are intrinsically magical creatures who perceive the weave of magic in ways that mortals cannot comprehend, but that one gets the latest scholarly journals, so he gets a boost. You're painting a diamond.
If studying fire gave Efreet incredibly powerful magical abilities, I'd expect them to do it. In fact, given their fiery nature, I'd expect them to be absolute naturals at studying fire, I'd expect it to come quickly and easily to them. And if wizard doesn't sit right go for sorcerer, if merely having a dragon ancestor is enough to unlock sorcerous power in a human a dragon should find learning sorcery the easiest thing in the world.

I think you have, though. Inclination and necessity are not the same thing, nor is nature an imperative.
Your suggested builds seemed to rely on intimate knowledge of how attunement works to maximize the boosts
Yes, but it's operating under the assumption that players will be using them (they're in the player rewards section), and PCs are all humanoids, so the resizing is under the assumption that the user is humanoid. The difference in size between a human and a dragon are considerably greater than the difference in size between a goliath and a halfling.
And I think metagaming dragons break immersion.

Not sure where you're going with this. They tend that way due to inclination and nature, the imperative and necessity come from the fact that they'll be incredibly vulnerable to those who do unless they do so themselves.
How on earth is attunement metagaming? Pretty much every adventurer knows about attunement, I'd say if you didn't it'd be a pretty low arcana check to find out, an old and intelligent dragon who has a bunch of magic items not knowing how attunement works (which is very simple, you can attune to 3 items at a time) is completely ridiculous. A goddamn dragon knowing basic facts about how magic items work is not metagaming.
And? Specific wording: 'in most cases, a magic item that's meant to be worn can fit a creature regardless of size or build. Rare exceptions exist.'. The DMG is very explicit about this, it says regardless of size or build not in moderate differences of size and build or depending on size and build. It specifically tells you size doesn't matter and then you go on to explain that the difference in size between a human and a dragon is considerably greater than the difference in size between a goliath and a halfling, why?
How are the dragons metagaming? Wearing magic items is pretty damn obvious, doesn't take a genius or any metagame knowledge to think 'hm, maybe I should wear this cloak of protection instead of leaving it lying around' and I'd say studying magic is a pretty obvious route to more power when you're a magical, intelligent creature to whom such things come incredibly naturally - and furthermore, once some dragons start doing it any dragons that don't have some other way of avoiding that dragon going after their hoard need to start doing it too or will end up getting subjugated or killed.

Addaran

2016-03-07, 06:18 PM

First off: You'll nolzur's marvelous pigments if they're the creative type, potions of fire breath plus a way to alter their skin colour in order to pretend they're a different type of dragon only to reveal their true colours (heh) after their misdirection has played out,

That's pure evil genius. :nale:

EvilAnagram

2016-03-07, 08:35 PM

If studying fire gave Efreet incredibly powerful magical abilities, I'd expect them to do it. In fact, given their fiery nature, I'd expect them to be absolute naturals at studying fire, I'd expect it to come quickly and easily to them.
I'd expect that the notion of studying fire wold be quite foreign to a being born of fire. The exploration of fire for am Efreet goes far beyond mere study... it's an intimate relationship that is far more intense than anything mere mortals could possibly experience. It involves senses foreign to us, forces beyond us, and to reduce it to mortal terms insults it.

And if wizard doesn't sit right go for sorcerer, if merely having a dragon ancestor is enough to unlock sorcerous power in a human a dragon should find learning sorcery the easiest thing in the world.
Or you could just give them spells instead of bothering with mortal routes to power.

Not sure where you're going with this.
An inclination is not deterministic. The fact that dragons tend to be jealous, greedy, and power hungry does not necessitate certain actions. They are living beings, not robots following a program, and their tendencies do not determine their primary motivations, force them to act in particular ways, or keep their flaws (like incredible arrogance) from holding them back.

Seriously, it's like you expect living beings to be rational actors when all evidence suggests that they're not.

A goddamn dragon knowing basic facts about how magic items work is not metagaming.
I'm going to go ahead and say that a dragon whose hoard consists of the exact magic items that provide it with the best possible abilities is definitely metagaming.

Specific wording: 'in most cases, a magic item that's meant to be worn can fit a creature regardless of size or build. Rare exceptions exist.'
And it says this while operating under the assumption that the items will be used by humanoids.

How are the dragons metagaming?

By your designing them to be as powerful as you can make them with the meta knowledge you possess.

Lines

2016-03-07, 08:55 PM

I'd expect that the notion of studying fire wold be quite foreign to a being born of fire. The exploration of fire for am Efreet goes far beyond mere study... it's an intimate relationship that is far more intense than anything mere mortals could possibly experience. It involves senses foreign to us, forces beyond us, and to reduce it to mortal terms insults it.
This was an analogy for dragons, which while long lived are mortal. In any case, if the dragon doesn't need to study magic then that just makes it a sorcerer.

[QUOTE=EvilAnagram;20512427]Or you could just give them spells instead of bothering with mortal routes to power.
Again, dragons are mortal. In any case, both sorcery and wizardry fits them perfectly.

An inclination is not deterministic. The fact that dragons tend to be jealous, greedy, and power hungry does not necessitate certain actions. They are living beings, not robots following a program, and their tendencies do not determine their primary motivations, force them to act in particular ways, or keep their flaws (like incredible arrogance) from holding them back. Seriously, it's like you expect living beings to be rational actors when all evidence suggests that they're not.
But that's not how that works. Sure, they're not perfectly rational actors, but neither are humans and there are tons of clear analogues here. The rational thing to do is to embrace gunpowder, and yet despite not being rational actors every European nation ended up doing so - you do so because once someone else does it, you keep up or you're toast. Sure, some dragons may be short sighted and not do so, but those will be killed by the dragons who aren't short sighted and soon enough you'll end up in a state where all adult dragons are spellcasters.

I'm going to go ahead and say that a dragon whose hoard consists of the exact magic items that provide it with the best possible abilities is definitely metagaming.
Why? If there are ten items in a dragons hoard, I'd expect to find the dragon attuned to the 3 that would benefit it most, and in any case a dragon is perfectly capable of tracking down or crafting specific magic items it desires. Depending on setting and circumstances it may not have everything it wants, all I posted was a list of suggestions for things a dragon would get good used out of.

And it says this while operating under the assumption that the items will be used by humanoids.
....and? Again, it specifically says that the items reshape. Why would the assumption that it'd be a humanoid wearing it matter? And given that there are a ton of intelligent and powerful creatures that aren't humanoids (a certain series of genius flying murder lizards comes to mind), why would they all be made for humanoids?

By your designing them to be as powerful as you can make them with the meta knowledge you possess.
I nominated two factors, spellcasting and magic items, two incredibly obvious factors. If a barbarian uses a greatsword instead of a dagger he isn't metagaming and using the knowledge that 2d6 is better damage than 1d4, which is itself less ridiculous than the assertion that an incredibly intelligent creature can't figure out spells and magic items are useful. Seriously, does every dragon in your campaigns have int 3?

McNinja

2016-03-07, 09:11 PM

Wait, what? Why? As a fluff?

I'm seriously "infected" with 3.5 and i'd give him something that gives him permanent Blur and perhaps Sonic damage along with Clinging breath of AMF.*

*KiddingMy bad, I noticed I didn't specify - I mean the dagger, gold, and staffs as part of the dragons horde, not part of an arsenal the dragon uses.

As a dragon, you wouldn't really see the need for items to augment your abilities.

Kurt Kurageous

2016-03-07, 09:48 PM

A very contentious post/thread here.

I am sure to be booed for this, but...

A young green dragon known as Daar the Beautiful and Terrible Protector of the Arbors decides to invest her few magic items to buff the crud out of and maintain the loyalty of her pet bugbear chief called Garatus. Garatus enjoys his role as her intermediary and lord to four goblin encampments. The goblin hassle the locals and occasionally successfully raid commerce. When they win, the goblins pay a fee to Garatus. Occasionally Garatus helps them. The goblins act as a screen/tripwire for the dragon and her bugbear. A cloak of elvenkind and boots of striding and springing make Garatus spookily able to appear and terrorize the goblins into doing his bidding.

She's young, maybe this is foolhardy. But she's using the resources she has on the edge of the empire in a competitive environment. Three other dragons are within 200 miles, and a silver one knows of her presence and is plotting her death.