Do vampires have to be evil?

[firruna]

Title says it all.
One of our players just got turned into a vampier, and we can't find anything that says he can still be LN, just the entry saying they are always Evil.

So, what do you guys think, can PC Vampiers be N?

[Willie the Duck]

Depending on the setting, books used, and of course DM fiat. Libris Mortis has some changes to the standard model for undead, since half the theme of the book was in making playable undead. Likewise, Forgotten Realms and Eberron like to shake up the norms, and I think there are methods for good undead in each (no specific knowledge for vampires).

Of course, you could always use the current OotS storyline as an example, where the character becomes evil, but just normal, selfish evil like Belker (but maybe secretly is plotting the world's destruction).

[Necroticplague]

Title says it all.
One of our players just got turned into a vampier, and we can't find anything that says he can still be LN, just the entry saying they are always Evil.

So, what do you guys think, can PC Vampiers be N?

In the short-term? No. Being a vampire immediately shifts your alignment to Evil, no questions asked.

However, there's absolutely nothing that requires him to STAY evil. So he simply turns evil when he gets vamped, then he'll probably end up shifting back to his old alignment if he just continues on. Finding a non-Evil way to handle his hungers might be a bit of a struggle, though (remember that, as per Libris Mortis, vampires have a need to both drink blood and drain energy going without either for more than a few days causes them to take WIS damage until they eventually go crazy and feed indiscriminately).

[Psyren]

Remember that "Always X" just means almost 100%. It's not absolute. If your GM (or you, if that's you) wants them to be one of the exceptions to that rule, go for it.

The question you should always be asking is "what is more fun for the group?" If changing the player's alignment isn't fun, don't do that (or at the very least, only do it short term and have them find a "cure" or something.)

[atemu1234]

Depending on the setting, books used, and of course DM fiat. Libris Mortis has some changes to the standard model for undead, since half the theme of the book was in making playable undead. Likewise, Forgotten Realms and Eberron like to shake up the norms, and I think there are methods for good undead in each (no specific knowledge for vampires).

Of course, you could always use the current OotS storyline as an example, where the character becomes evil, but just normal, selfish evil like Belker (but maybe secretly is plotting the world's destruction).

Yeah, Ravenloft on the other hand...

[Inevitability]

If all else fails, there's always a Helmet of Opposite Alignment, a Deck of Many Things, or a Mindrape spell (though the latter requires a PaO before and after).

[ATHATH]

Wasn't there a template for vampires that allows them to keep the L-C axis of their alignments? Is LE close enough to LN for you (check out the handbook that Red Fel made on it)?

[Psyren]

Wasn't there a template for vampires that allows them to keep the L-C axis of their alignments? Is LE close enough to LN for you (check out the handbook that Red Fel made on it)?

The normal Vampire template in both 3.5 and PF is Any Evil, so presumably you'd keep whatever ethical axis you started with even if the moral axis ends up being lowered.

[ATHATH]

Really? I though that vampires were always CE.

[Psyren]

Really? I though that vampires were always CE.

Always evil (any.) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm)

And just look at OotS - both Malack and Durkula are LE.

[Red Fel]

Always evil (any.) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm)

And just look at OotS - both Malack and Durkula are LE.

Can you blame them? Every vampire wants this kind of style.

http://www.lovethisgif.com/uploaded_images/1689-dracula.gif

Or this kind.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view2/3951166/dracula-laughing-o.gif

Or especially this kind.

https://media.giphy.com/media/l41lZT6ZC5dhcCzGo/giphy.gif

LE, baby. Blame ATHATH for mentioning me by name. Three times, people! It's not hard!

[Telonius]

There's a bit of an impression of chaos from the "Vampire Characters" section:

Clerics
Vampire clerics lose their ability to turn undead but gain the ability to rebuke undead. This ability does not affect the vampire’s controller or any other vampires that a master controls. A vampire cleric has access to two of the following domains: Chaos, Destruction, Evil, or Trickery.


So even if you were a Lawful cleric before, Law Domain is no longer an option. I suspect it has something to do with Orcus, if you go back into the lore far enough.

[Werephilosopher]

Wasn't there a template for vampires that allows them to keep the L-C axis of their alignments? Is LE close enough to LN for you (check out the handbook that Red Fel made on it)?

The vampire lord (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a) template does this, the "alignment" section implying that vampires automatically become Chaotic Evil.

[Telonius]

Ahhh, 3.0 material! The old SRD says that yes, they were "Always Chaotic Evil" there. The domain availability must be a holdover.

[Segev]

I do always find things that don't have a mechanical enforcement clause for alignment change which change alignments to be interesting. They raise such fascinating questions.

Normally, alignment is descriptive, not prescriptive. But the moment magical alignment-alteration comes into play...

For your PC, I'd suggest it play out as a set of urges and drives, as temptations he finds harder to resist than usual. He is learning to bring his hungers under control (or to accept them as "natural," depending on his choice to keep the new alignment or not).

[firruna]

(remember that, as per Libris Mortis, vampires have a need to both drink blood and drain energy going without either for more than a few days causes them to take WIS damage until they eventually go crazy and feed indiscriminately).

Do you remember where it says this? I'm looking all through out Libris Mortis and can't find it.

[Xuldarinar]

To answer the title quest: No.



That being said; Upon becoming an undead creature there is typically an alignment shift (I.e. Odds are you are getting the E whether you want to or not.) Undead, also by merit of being undead rather than living entities, are more likely to be set in their ways (because reasons.) Additionally, if you so happen to hunger for the blood of the living (or something else living beings have) then shifting away from an evil alignment might be more difficult than for most.

Want a non-evil vampire? It can happen but it takes a bit of work to get there.

Want a good-aligned vampire? I would recommend watching angel.

[Necroticplague]

Do you remember where it says this? I'm looking all through out Libris Mortis and can't find it.

It's the portion about undead diet. It's a subheader under Undead Metabolism. On page 9, it has a table, where vampires are listed as having an Inescapable Craving for life-force, and a Diet Dependence for blood. Page 10 lists the effects of those.

[Milo v3]

Do vampires have to be evil.... Yes, since the template changes it to evil. But there is nothing that stops that vampire from then changing their alignment as normal since alignment is descriptive and not prescriptive so having his alignment change to evil does not change his personality at all and is likely only a temporary thing if you go back to good actions.

[OldTrees1]

No, vampires do not have to be evil.

RAW: Creatures can change alignment(Monster Manuel), PCs doubly so(MM & Savage Species).

Fluff: As an obligate carnivore, I have to say obligate carnivores are not inherently evil. What is a vampire but an obligate carnivore that leaves the food source alive? Buy a cow or learn lesser restoration.

[EyethatBinds]

Sure you can be a LN or CN vampire, but you sparkle in the daylight, among other new weaknesses.

[Psyren]

There's a bit of an impression of chaos from the "Vampire Characters" section:


So even if you were a Lawful cleric before, Law Domain is no longer an option. I suspect it has something to do with Orcus, if you go back into the lore far enough.

Apart from it likely being a holdover, "having access to" the Chaos domain doesn't mean you're forced to take it.


(I.e. Odds are you are getting the E whether you want to or not.)

I read this as getting the D at first :smallbiggrin:

[digiman619]

It's worth noting that even if you cease being evil, being undead means you'll ping on detect evil anyway.

[Jack_Simth]

Buy a cow or learn lesser restoration.Drain, not damage. Needs a full Restoration, not the lesser variety.

Mind you: Technically, you don't even need the cow. Look up the Children of the Night ability vampires get. You might have a couple of druids after you if you keep eating predators like that, though. Then again, you might have them after you anyway, what with being an undead abomination that goes against the natural order of things....

[OldTrees1]

Drain, not damage. Needs a full Restoration, not the lesser variety.

Mind you: Technically, you don't even need the cow. Look up the Children of the Night ability vampires get. You might have a couple of druids after you if you keep eating predators like that, though. Then again, you might have them after you anyway, what with being an undead abomination that goes against the natural order of things....

Direct drinking is drain you are quite right, but I thought there were blood losses that were Con damage so indirect drinking would only require lesser restoration.

Good call about the children of the night.

[Florian]

So, what do you guys think, can PC Vampiers be N?

No. Sooner or later, that Vampire has to kill to feed and then its over. Until then, any alignment is possible.

[Jack_Simth]

Direct drinking is drain you are quite right, but I thought there were blood losses that were Con damage so indirect drinking would only require lesser restoration.Like with a Wounding weapon? The question with other methods of blood drain is "does it sate the same hunger?" and then there's the issue that there's still the energy drain thing going on that they also need to do periodically, and lesser restoration won't help with that at all. Abusing Children of the Night to eat wolves is the least rules-bendy way to handle it without cost and without being evil in actions. Buying cows would of course work quite well too if your DM doesn't like the idea that you're eating creatures you summoned. Goats are cheaper than cows (by one order of magnitude), but neither have stats in the core game; a mule is only 8 gp (as opposed to the cow's ten or the goat's 1) and is fully statted in the monster manual.

Wolves are free for a vampire, though, and come in packs.

No. Sooner or later, that Vampire has to kill to feed and then its over. Until then, any alignment is possible.
There is nothing RAW restricting vampires to eating intelligent creatures. Is eating stock animals that you purchased fairly inherently evil?

[Morcleon]

No. Sooner or later, that Vampire has to kill to feed and then its over. Until then, any alignment is possible.

Can't you just grab a Ring of Sustenance? :smalltongue:

Also, you can just feed on a willing party member who has a way of healing Con drain. Or any monsters in your latest dungeon.

[Graypairofsocks]

Title says it all.
One of our players just got turned into a vampier, and we can't find anything that says he can still be LN, just the entry saying they are always Evil.

So, what do you guys think, can PC Vampiers be N?

According to "Savage Species" he gets a will save to keep his old alignment.

[Toilet Cobra]

I feel like, being infused with Negative Energy will make you Evil, but not necessarily act evil. The sun will burn you, holy symbols will hold you at bay, and cure spells will damage you. You will show up on detect evil and are susceptible to a holy word.

But I don't see any reason you have to act evil. If you're intelligent and free-willed, you can do as you please. You might be fighting pretty strong evil urges the whole time, but that's just more RP fluff.

Just my interpretation. At my table, when you cease being a mortal and become a vampire, you become a creature of evil, but it's more a reality of your species than a philosophical dedication to evil.

[Florian]

There is nothing RAW restricting vampires to eating intelligent creatures. Is eating stock animals that you purchased fairly inherently evil?

I have a very strong vegan tendency. Don´t let us get into arguments here.

That being said: If the creature doesn´t conform to the myths and legends, then what to? RAW is always based on "how things work in real life" and in this case, they suck humanoid blood and that´s it.


Can't you just grab a Ring of Sustenance? :smalltongue:

Also, you can just feed on a willing party member who has a way of healing Con drain. Or any monsters in your latest dungeon.

So?

[Morcleon]

That being said: If the creature doesn´t conform to the myths and legends, then what to? RAW is always based on "how things work in real life" and in this case, they suck humanoid blood and that´s it.

Skyrim lets you drink blood from cows. :smalltongue:


So?

So you can just get a Ring of Sustenance and not need to feed at all.

[Morty]

The only way in which the Always X Evil entry makes any kind of sense is if vampirism works like in OotS - the victim's body is hijacked by an evil, parasitic spirit. If it works in a more straightforward manner, in that the victim just wakes up as a blood-drinking undead, then there's no reason why they have to be evil. They might gravitate towards an evil alignment because of the results of being a vampire, although honestly I'd be very wary of altering someone's alignment because of something they had little to no choice in.

[OldTrees1]

Can't you just grab a Ring of Sustenance? :smalltongue:

Also, you can just feed on a willing party member who has a way of healing Con drain. Or any monsters in your latest dungeon.

Undead hunger comes in 2 flavors. There is the diet and the craving. I would rule that the Ring of Sustenance only covers the diet hungers and not the craving hungers. So a Ring of Sustenance is quite useful but depending on the undead it might only be part of the solution.

[Elkad]

No. Sooner or later, that Vampire has to kill to feed and then its over. Until then, any alignment is possible.

Fiction is full of vampires who only feed on evil people, or only on the willing, or only give a merciful death to the terminally ill, or a dozen other variants.

It's not RAW, but then neither was a CG dual-scimitar-wielding Dark Elf at first.

[Morcleon]

Undead hunger comes in 2 flavors. There is the diet and the craving. I would rule that the Ring of Sustenance only covers the diet hungers and not the craving hungers. So a Ring of Sustenance is quite useful but depending on the undead it might only be part of the solution.

Use prestidigitation to flavor your water with the taste of the richest blood in existence. :smallbiggrin:

[Necroticplague]

So you can just get a Ring of Sustenance and not need to feed at all.
That won't work. Rings of Sustenance only help with "life-sustaining nourishment". Vampires, having no life to sustain, don't benefit from this part. Strictly speaking, their need to feed isn't a biological necessity (a vampire without blood for even centuries is physically fine. It's just completely insane until it gets its fix.). It's more like an overwhelming addiction.


That being said: If the creature doesn´t conform to the myths and legends, then what to? RAW is always based on "how things work in real life" and in this case, they suck humanoid blood and that´s it.
If it doesn't conform to myths, in conforms to the rules. The rules only say they need to drain energy with their slam attack, and drain blood with their Blood Drain ability. Absolutely no note as to what you need to drain energy from, or what you need to drain blood from (beyond that it must not be immune to the CON damage or Negative Level).


I feel like, being infused with Negative Energy will make you Evil, but not necessarily act evil. The sun will burn you, holy symbols will hold you at bay, and cure spells will damage you. You will show up on detect evil and are susceptible to a holy word.

Er, part of this is wrong. The part about being free-willed and thus still acting good is right. However, most of those things are downsides vampire specific, and has nothing to do with Evil (or heck, even being Undead. Ghosts and necropolitans are also undead, and the only two or those true for Good ones are Detect Evil and Cure). Cure spells aren't good, Holy Word won't effect you if you are Good. So you can be a Good vampire, and Holy Word wouldn't even phase you. You will show up on Detect Evil, for some reason, though.

[atemu1234]

I have a very strong vegan tendency. Don´t let us get into arguments here.

... Are you seriously implying that avoiding eating sentient creatures by consuming nonsentient creatures, in a manner that does not even necessarily need to kill them, is a moral wrong, to the extent that it will alter alignment in D&D?

Note I'm not questioning vegan beliefs and practices, but rather where the comparative morality lies here. Humans can and do persist on non-animals. Vampires have no such option.

[OldTrees1]

Use prestidigitation to flavor your water with the taste of the richest blood in existence. :smallbiggrin:

You just solved undead hunger with a cheap ring and a cantrip. Victory is yours!

[Psyren]

Remember that we're not allowed to discuss real-world morality here. In D&D and Golarion specifically, eating meat is not evil, and we also have a clear benchmark for sapient life (3 Int or greater.) Various good gods even actively encourage it, such as Erastil being the patron of hunters, or Cayden Cailean sponsoring large feastdays.

[zergling.exe]

Fiction is full of vampires who only feed on evil people, or only on the willing, or only give a merciful death to the terminally ill, or a dozen other variants.

It's not RAW, but then neither was a CG dual-scimitar-wielding Dark Elf at first.

Including one that actually gives people blood. And all the vampires in that story are actually good for the person they feed off of... while they do it. But after a while the blood becomes unappetizing. They have a preferred taste that is essentially a certain negative emotion.

[digiman619]

No. Sooner or later, that Vampire has to kill to feed and then its over. Until then, any alignment is possible.

I totally disagree. It's like filling a Black Soul Gem in Skyrim. Would seeking out someone to kill them in order to empower your enchantments be evil? You bet your bippy. But when I get attacked by bandits or Redcloaks/Imperials all the dang time and I use it on one of them? Not so much. As an adventurer, you're going to be in mortal combat a whole lot. Taking your dead foes' stuff is standard practice. If it's OK to kill a foe and recover HP by drinking a potion of cure light wounds they had, then it's OK to feed off a dying NPC that you were going to kill anyway in order to keep existing.

[Crake]

Most of the organized vampires in my setting have level 3 binder cohorts who always have naberious bound, and have endurance, lasting life, and enduring life. They restore the blood drain on a point per hour basis, and can shrug off the negative levels before they become an issue.

Edit: That said, more often than not, those cohorts are a last resort, not a consistent food source, eating the same thing every day becomes boring.

[Milo v3]

This is even easier in PF since them feeding creates ability damage not ability drain, meaning it takes like a day to heal and you can just get willing people to feed on without much issue.

[Necroticplague]

You just solved undead hunger with a cheap ring and a cantrip. Victory is yours!

Er, not really. There's the fact Ring of Sustenance only provides "life-sustaining nourishment", of which there is none for a vampire (since they have no life). And even assuming this takes care of their blood problem (it doesn't), it doesn't even touch their need to drain energy (which interestingly, they actually need to do with greater frequency than draining blood).