Enchanting items curiosity.

[Tegu8788]

What are the mechanics for learning how to enchant an item? I don't mean the Enchant Item ritual, but applying a specific enchantment on a weapon. Enchanting a heavy blade with an Aegis Blade enchant vs a Carnage weapon enchantment, does each different enchantment have a cost? Is this even covered? How do you "learn" new enchantments? I'm starting a game and my roommate is playing an artificer. I already know he's going to try and use crafting to solve just about every problem, and he has already asked what it costs to learn how make a rare item.

[ThePurple]

What are the mechanics for learning how to enchant an item?

As written, the only thing you need in order to know how to place a given enchantment on a magic item is to have the Enchant Magic Item ritual. Just having the ritual is enough to place any enchantment on a piece of gear


he has already asked what it costs to learn how make a rare item.

How rarity interacts with enchant magic item I'm not entirely sure of, but I vaguely recall (such that I'm not sure if it was a houserule or written rule) that only GMs can provide magic items that are specifically listed as "rare". If I'm correct, players could purchase common magic items from stores, create uncommon magic items, but, in order to get rare magic items, had to get them from the GM via adventuring/quest rewards.

The wording on the Enchant Magic Item ritual is vague since it doesn't mention rarity as far as creation is concerned but does mention it where upgrading is concerned (which makes sense since otherwise a player would have to keep finding a rare magic item over and over again as she progressed through levels).

Under Magic Item Level and Rarity, it's specifically mentioned that "Uncommon and rare magic items are not normally created in the current age of the world." If you went by that, players would only be able to purchase or create common magic items and would be required to adventure in order to get uncommon *or* rare magic items.

Since your player is an artificer who is going to be focused on magic item creation, it would probably behoove you to come up with some guidelines for what the player can create, possibly creating a restricted list of uncommon and rare magic items that she can create (effectively creating a list of non-common enchantments that the player has access to), which can be expanded via research or quest rewards (I wouldn't make the player spend money or lose money in order to get these additional "recipes", though, so they'd be in addition to the normal rewards per level).

[Kurald Galain]

Enchanting a heavy blade with an Aegis Blade enchant vs a Carnage weapon enchantment, does each different enchantment have a cost?
Sure, all items are listed with a sales price, and enchanting an item costs exactly as much as buying it. The sales price is for the entire item (e.g. 520 gp = pinning spear +1, you don't need to pay for the spear separately). If you mean to ask "can I put both Aegis and Carnage on the same weapon" then the answer is no.


How do you "learn" new enchantments?
You automatically know all of them.


he has already asked what it costs to learn how make a rare item.
If you're using the rarity rules (which are generally impopular and I'd advise against it), then you can only craft or buy common items, which excludes about 98% of items printed. By the same rules, you'd have to find everything else as randomly generated loot (and I've run some tests on this, it is hilariously likely for any random loot to be completely useless to the party) (edit: and I don't mean "suboptimal", I mean literally useless).

Rarity is a kludge invented only late in the lifespan of 4E. Don't use rarity.

[Yakk]

Note that "Rare" items where all published post-rarity rules.

"Rare" items attempt to be stronger by granting roughly the strength of an encounter power's worth of "use" above a normal item.

At the same time, by this era they had attempted to reign in the "most powerful" type of items (with some success).

So, "Rare" items where never intended to be mass-manufactured; at the same time, they are usually not the most powerful in their slot, and non-"Rare" items have equally large problems if mass-manufactured sometimes.

---

There are many ways to approach magic items. An easy approach is to say that your artificer can make any common or uncommon item, and hold back "rare" items to be handed out one per player per tier.

[MwaO]

If you're using the rarity rules (which are generally impopular and I'd advise against it), then you can only craft or buy common items, which excludes about 98% of items printed. By the same rules, you'd have to find everything else as randomly generated loot (and I've run some tests on this, it is hilariously likely for any random loot to be completely useless to the party) (edit: and I don't mean "suboptimal", I mean literally useless).

Rarity is a kludge invented only late in the lifespan of 4E. Don't use rarity.

I'm not sure where you're getting that idea about how 4e treasure works. All rarity really does is say, "If a magic item is not common, you can't craft or buy it unless your DM gives permission." - and that's it. And given the number of magic items that can easily bend the system or have suspect balance issues in a higher level game, that's not a bad idea. Especially if you're using the flip side of the rarity rules in that you can now ignore the daily magic item use limits. As an example, if you have Staff proficiency, have basically any effects that you can use - marks, curses, etc...and don't use a Shield, +1 Aversion Staff is an incredible item - +2 item bonus to all defenses to targets under an effect that will be useful until you're 30th level.

And the only suggestion about magic items being picked out in Rules Compendium is that you have a 50% chance of a common being found, a 45% of an uncommon, and a 5% chance of a rare in the treasure table. RC explicitly states that the DM should tailor the items to the party and to even consider wish lists to offer possibilities of players finding things that they're interested in using. To cite the example, "For instance, if none of the characters in a 6th level party uses a longbow, don't put a 10th-level longbow in the dungeon as treasure."

[MoutonRustique]

My understanding is something like this :

Pre "rarity"
RAW : left up to DM (often assumed to be up to the player)
RAI : the table should decide the level of granularity and control they want

Post "rarity"
RAW : only common items can be crafted by players
RAI : the table should decide, but we think that putting the "No!" option front and center is what most people prefer and the DM can be more lenient if she wants to.*

*From what can be read on boards that favour 5e, it seems to be the correct verdict : i.e. it would appear that having the books say "no" and ~allowing~ the DM to say "yes" is preferred to having the books say "sure, if it works for your table". From what I've been exposed to. Personally, I find this preference (and the level of feeling it provokes) to be a strange thing. :smallconfused:

[Kurald Galain]

My understanding is something like this :

Almost. Basically, in pre rarity players decide what items they get, within level limits; the rules are pretty explicit that players should make wishlists for loot for the DM, and can buy or enchant everything they like.

Conversely, post rarity, either the DM (if you go by RulCom) or a random dice roll (if you go by the DM Kit) decides what items the players get. Note that the "post rarity books" (i.e. HOFL and so forth) don't have rules for item crafting to begin with.

[Yakk]

Almost. Basically, in pre rarity players decide what items they get, within level limits; the rules are pretty explicit that players should make wishlists for loot for the DM, and can buy or enchant everything they like.
Huh? Wishlists are suggestion as far as I can recall.

[Kurald Galain]

Huh? Wishlists are suggestion as far as I can recall.

Sure, but it's the only suggestion given (not one from a list of options).

The notion that PCs can buy and/or enchant everything they like is RAW (edit: as originally printed, i.e. before HOFL). So if the PCs don't get a wishlist or don't get what's on the wishlist, they can just sell or disenchant and get their wishes anyway.

LFR tried to do it differently for a while but eventually caved to player complaints and let people take whatever they wanted (within level limits).

[MwaO]

Almost. Basically, in pre rarity players decide what items they get, within level limits; the rules are pretty explicit that players should make wishlists for loot for the DM, and can buy or enchant everything they like.

Conversely, post rarity, either the DM (if you go by RulCom) or a random dice roll (if you go by the DM Kit) decides what items the players get. Note that the "post rarity books" (i.e. HOFL and so forth) don't have rules for item crafting to begin with.

Wish lists function exactly the same way pre/post rarity. Players give 3-5 items each level they'd like to see if the DM is okay with it - and usually a PC gains 4 items per 5 levels. And in general, that's so the players get items they're excited by - but you don't have to do that, even if they give you a wish list and you don't like their choices.

No one I know really uses the rules from DM Kit. It is a 'Hey, you haven't played 4e before and want to try it?' product for a group who doesn't even own a DMG.

And in general, if Rules Compendium doesn't specifically overrule PHB/DMG, the old rules apply.

I'd use rarity with wish lists. If the artificer wants to craft a rare item, what I'd do is make some sort of quest to find one of a kind ingredients+scraps of paper detailing a lost ritual. i.e. you need a sword made of metal from a civilization from long ago, which used to be merely uncommon, but now number less than a handful. Etc...

[Kurald Galain]

No one I know really uses the rules from DM Kit. It is a 'Hey, you haven't played 4e before and want to try it?' product for a group who doesn't even own a DMG.
That's a confirmation bias, though.

Yes, there are groups that only use DM Kit (that's how WOTC marketed it, after all). There are also groups that use DMG1 without RulCom, or DMG1 without late-cycle errata. In the latter two cases, there simply isn't any rarity.


If the artificer wants to craft a rare item, what I'd do is make some sort of quest
Well, that's the crux of the issue here. While I'm sure that WOTC intended that uncommons are better than commons and rares are better than uncommons, this all too often really isn't the case. The whole categorization is rather messy, and for quite a lot of builds the best items aren't the rare ones.

FWIW all DMs in my area rejected and ignored the rarity system, and most of them didn't buy the RulCom or the DM Kit (because they're pretty redundant to the DMG anyway).

[MwaO]

That's a confirmation bias, though.

Yes, there are groups that only use DM Kit (that's how WOTC marketed it, after all). There are also groups that use DMG1 without RulCom, or DMG1 without late-cycle errata. In the latter two cases, there simply isn't any rarity.

But they kept daily magic item uses, then, right?

Ultimately, I think one of the issues with not using rarity and bloat is that there's a lot of extremely useful low level items. If you don't limit that somehow, things tend to break at a certain point. And rarity isn't a horrible way to do it, though it would have been nice if they had gone through and made some obvious items common.

But then again, any DM can do that with a hand wave.


Well, that's the crux of the issue here. While I'm sure that WOTC intended that uncommons are better than commons and rares are better than uncommons, this all too often really isn't the case. The whole categorization is rather messy, and for quite a lot of builds the best items aren't the rare ones.

FWIW all DMs in my area rejected and ignored the rarity system, and most of them didn't buy the RulCom or the DM Kit (because they're pretty redundant to the DMG anyway).

Perfectly true, but I think the whole uncommon/rare thing is simply to keep PCs from turning into low-level magic item Xmas trees. For a really long time, R&D seemed unaware of generally, just how much better properties were and they introduced a lot of them. A Wizard with a Hand Arcane Familiar and a +1 Orb of Nimble Thoughts, +1 Aversion Staff, +1 Dagger of Shielding and a 20 Int has a base AC of 18 against anyone he has an effect against. Sure, the Orb got errata'd, but it still gives the really nice move option. Etc...

[masteraleph]

Perfectly true, but I think the whole uncommon/rare thing is simply to keep PCs from turning into low-level magic item Xmas trees. For a really long time, R&D seemed unaware of generally, just how much better properties were and they introduced a lot of them. A Wizard with a Hand Arcane Familiar and a +1 Orb of Nimble Thoughts, +1 Aversion Staff, +1 Dagger of Shielding and a 20 Int has a base AC of 18 against anyone he has an effect against. Sure, the Orb got errata'd, but it still gives the really nice move option. Etc...

Realistically speaking, nerfing Disembodied Hand and Rakshasa Claw to once per turn or even once per round would have been a big help in that regard (they did it with Coure Attendant). Also Battle Harness. The problem isn't so much swapping an item here or there; it's swapping in multiple items for your attack, defense, move, etc. packages.

[Tegu8788]

There are many ways to approach magic items. An easy approach is to say that your artificer can make any common or uncommon item, and hold back "rare" items to be handed out one per player per tier.

This is the basic idea I had. He was thinking he'd have to disenchant something in order to learn it, and given how rituals have to be learned individually, I can certainly understand that. I don't mind letting him craft whatever he wants that the party can afford, with permission.

So, if I'm not using rarity as a guide (knew it was ), and we are sticking to heroic (2-10, possibly going paragon but unlikely), does the playground have a recommendation for an easy guidepost I can give my roommate when it comes to picking out items from the compendium? He's already giddy about getting to recharge daily powers.

[MwaO]

This is the basic idea I had. He was thinking he'd have to disenchant something in order to learn it, and given how rituals have to be learned individually, I can certainly understand that. I don't mind letting him craft whatever he wants that the party can afford, with permission.

So, if I'm not using rarity as a guide (knew it was ), and we are sticking to heroic (2-10, possibly going paragon but unlikely), does the playground have a recommendation for an easy guidepost I can give my roommate when it comes to picking out items from the compendium? He's already giddy about getting to recharge daily powers.

Decent list:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?452601-He-Thinks-He-s-Divine-A-Paladin-Battlemind-Wizard-Blackstone-Guardian-Topaz-Cruader

[Kurald Galain]

does the playground have a recommendation for an easy guidepost I can give my roommate when it comes to picking out items from the compendium? He's already giddy about getting to recharge daily powers.

The various class guides, if you can still find them.

Generally speaking the best items are those with an always-on property (e.g. Cloak of Survival), followed by those with an encounter power (e.g. Boots of the Fencing Master), followed by those with a minor/immediate/free action daily power (e.g. Orb of Inevitable Continuance* or Staff of the Warmage). The majority of items with a standard action daily simply aren't worth using.

* (yes, I know artificers aren't proficient with orbs; but multiclassing to wizard to gain proficiency is a useful option, and there are some good orbs out there)

[Yakk]

So, another approach is to treat magic items as how you, as the DM, get to shape the characters.

With an artificer present (who expects to make magic items based on their own inspiration), this gets trickier.

You can also have fun with brewing items.

Here is a set of brew rules:

Items in some slots have passive benefits. These are item bonuses. Round up fractions.

Bracers: Level/5 item bonus to damage rolls
Helms: Level/10 item bonus to will
Belt: Level/10 item bonus to fortitude
Boots: Level/10 item bonus to reflex
Shields: Level/5 resist all, level/10 item bonus to damage rolls (note that a shield prevents having a bracer and off-hand item)

Items that already have such a bonus instead get a +1 bump above max(what they have, what the above says).

Weapons: All magical weapons are "elemental" for a fixed damage type.

(at-will, free): Damage from this weapon is (damage type). You can dismiss this as a free action.
Critical Hit: Your attack deals that damage type (no matter what).

Implements: All magical implements are "elemental" for a fixed damage type.

Property: Damage on implement attacks from this implement is also (damage type).

Which of the above you get is based off of the type of enchantment: a Staff implement enchantment gets the Implement version, a Quarterstaff weapon enchantment gets the Weapon version.

Note that the Weapon replaces the damage type, while Implement mixes it in. Weapon applies to all attacks, Implement only applies to implement attacks. This is intentional.
The goal of the above is that it patches in the relatively "boring" math-patch items and "must have" elemental damage attack tools and lets players have a bit more fun selection.

[Sol]

You could also easily allow your artificer to create the occasional highly-desired rare item -- with a necessary rare component / focus that the party would need to quest for.

[darkdragoon]

Artificers know Make Whole, Brew Potion, Disenchant Magic Item and Enchant Magic Item by default and don't have to pay the component cost to Disenchant. Transfer Enchantment is also recommended. They can boost their item level plus Dungeon Enchanter lets you create stuff super-fast. Cost is the real factor-it just isn't that practical to respec magic items on the fly outside of some heroic or +1s with utility.

Alchemy is more specific with recipes and the like but the Alchemist theme helps out a bit there.

The Forge Weapon and Forge Armor practices in MP2 are limited to Magic+X and silvering IIRC. Similarly if you just need something non-magic Master Artisan can do that.