Help with building/lore-ing a Paladin-Warlock

[mer.c]

Hi folks!

I've been creating some henchman NPCs for a future campaign, possibly Princes of the Apocalypse. I like to design my characters (especially DMPCs) from a "ground-up" approach, fleshing out characteristics, and then building the character to reflect them.

But, I'm not very experienced with 5e yet, so I don't always catch all the rules or lore pitfalls, or know exactly how well an idea will stack up in practice (especially given how tricky building a tank/controller can be in 5e). So I wanted to see what people recommend. The character in question is a middle-aged Tiefling Paladin with starting stats 14/10/14/6/11/18. We don't know exactly what the party will be yet, but likely a Wild Sorcerer, a Swashbuckler Rogue, and one to two others.

Fluff
Prior to the campaign start, she took the Oath of Devotion to prove a point because she was sick of everyone assuming the worst about her as a Tiefling. Having 6 Wis means that she's not insightful enough to realize that her goody-goody routine is a complete front she uses for her own ends and not something she actually believes in or aspires to personally. At some point, she'll start to have trouble using her Paladin abilities. Eventually (if she survives), she won't be able to ignore the her hypocrisy any longer, and she'll have a crisis of identity/faith.

After some brooding, she'll be approached by the Satyr-ish Fey lord (can't remember the name at the moment). He'll tell her he found her whole charade entertaining and a little endearing. Out of genuine affection, and also desiring a morally blank champion who won't really resist his will, he'll offer to enter a Warlock Pact with her. Depending on where I want to take it, I may end up re-kitting her as Oath of the Ancients, unless I feel like he could sustain her Devotion abilities. All she'd really miss form it is Sacred Weapon anyways. From that point, I don't know how things will go fluff-wise. I'll just see where the story takes her.

Build
The idea behind the build is a sword-and-board battlefield controller. War Caster would be a big deal, giving her advantage on that super-important Concentration check, letting her cast all spells without slinging her weapon, and once she gets Warlock 1, letting her cast Booming Blade as an opportunity attack. Shield Master is great for resilience, battlefield control, and party assists through prone. Maxing at 14 Strength means a few points off the shove contest, but proficiency in Athletics in addition to possibly Hex targeting Strength or Dex should help make up the difference. The real coup would be at level 8, where she can get Polearm Master with her Shillelagh staff, doing an extra 1d4 + 5 attack plus possible Hex damage, plus possibly an extra Smite, plus eventually the 1d8 from Improved Divine Smite.

For Warlock cantrips, I'm thinking Booming Blade (battlefield control) and Minor Illusion (fey-trickster shenanigans). I imagine her taking Pact of the Tome to grab Shillelagh to leverage her great Cha compared to Str, plus two from Thorn Whip/Lightning Lure/Shocking Grasp for more battlefield control. Invocations would be Misty Visions (more fey-trickster shenanigans, combos well with Minor Illusion for sound) and Devil's Sight, because it's thematic as **** and I imagine exploiting the hell out of it with racial Darkness.

Here's how I imagine the progression going:

Levels

1-6: Paladin 1-6, Oath of Devotion, Duelist OR Defense style
7-9: Warlock 1-3, Pact of the Tome
10: Paladin 7, Reclass to Oath of the Ancients?
11-14: Paladin 8-11
15-16: Warlock 4-5 (?) (Maybe take Book of Ancient Secrets? Seems pretty cool for this character.)


ASA/Feats (Note that for multiclass, we just use the standard 4/8/12/16/19 progression and tie it to character level. We also use the house rule of getting one feat at level 1)

Level 1: Shield Master
Level 4: War Caster
Level 8: Polearm Master
Level 12: Tough OR +2 Cha
Level 16: Tough OR +2 Cha?
Level 19: ???



Here are the things I'm wondering:


Does that sound good from a usefulness and rules perspective? Any pitfalls I'm missing, or lore/rules oversights I'm making?
For fighting style, does the +1 AC make a significant difference in her tankyness, compared to the extra extra punching power of +2 damage from Duelist? We go low-magic in our games, so probably +1 armor or weapon would be the most I expect to get.
Speaking of tankiness, I have no idea where you generally want to be durability- and utility-wise. Would Tough and/or boosting Con and/or Resilience Con be really important here? How about Sentinel? Or is Booming Blade on reaction plus shield-shoving people good enough? I guess without Sentinel, Disengage is going to be a problem.
Concentration spells are the bane (no pun intended) of this build. Bless, Moonbeam, Shield of Faith, Hex, Darkness, Aura of Vitality, Magic/Elemental Weapon, all the Smite spells, and even Ensnaring Strike compete for concentration. Any recommendations on the relative value of these spells, particularly Hex, for this kind of build? Or maybe just use up your Moonbeam slots and Darkness early while using Warlock slots to Divine Smite, then once out of concentration spells, short-rest to get Hex going?
Cantrip Selection: With Pact of the Tome grabbing Shillelagh, she'll be able to pick two from Shocking Grasp, Thorn Whip, and Lightning Lure. Any experience with the relative usefulness of these spells in keeping your party safe and enemies locked down? Or any others that may make sense (like Mage Hand for craftiness?)


Hoo, boy, that ended up being long. Thanks for bearing with me and my newbishness! ;)

[Talamare]

Choose your Fighting Style, Blade and Shield vs Polearm
Get Feats for One of the 2, not both

Hex only halfway helps Shoves, Yes it imposes a Disadvantage on STR or DEX Checks, but the target can always choose the one that isn't Hexed. Tho, not every monster has high of both.

You need 15 STR for Heavy Armor, 16 is the usual key stopping points for a lot of Paladins

Shillelagh is awesome... Until you get like an awesome +2 Weapon or something then it sucks ass and makes you regret having it...

I'm guessing your total levels will be 12p/8w?

Tough is a really powerful feat, but so is Resilient. Paladins have a slightly easier time with Concentration checks than other casters because they add CHA to all saves at lv6
Because of the above, CHA kinda of becomes your Primary stat even before considering the fact you're a Warlock as well.

Warlock adds a TON of tanking to Paladins due to being able to basically spam Armor of Agathys, which is why 12w/8p can be REALLY strong as well, but would NEED Pact of the Blade

[Lines]

Choose your Fighting Style, Blade and Shield vs Polearm
Get Feats for One of the 2, not both

Hex only halfway helps Shoves, Yes it imposes a Disadvantage on STR or DEX Checks, but the target can always choose the one that isn't Hexed. Tho, not every monster has high of both.

You need 15 STR for Heavy Armor, 16 is the usual key stopping points for a lot of Paladins

Shillelagh is awesome... Until you get like an awesome +2 Weapon or something then it sucks ass and makes you regret having it...

I'm guessing your total levels will be 12p/8w?

Tough is a really powerful feat, but so is Resilient. Paladins have a slightly easier time with Concentration checks than other casters because they add CHA to all saves at lv6
Because of the above, CHA kinda of becomes your Primary stat even before considering the fact you're a Warlock as well.

Warlock adds a TON of tanking to Paladins due to being able to basically spam Armor of Agathys, which is why 12w/8p can be REALLY strong as well, but would NEED Pact of the Blade

Why would you need pact of the blade? I can't see it helping at all, the +cha to damage is the only real benefit and comes online really late, while 11 paladin levels gets you basically the same benefit and means you can take tome.

[Talamare]

Why would you need pact of the blade? I can't see it helping at all, the +cha to damage is the only real benefit and comes online really late, while 11 paladin levels gets you basically the same benefit and means you can take tome.

12w/8p needs Pact of the Blade
12p/8w does not

and it can come online as early or as late as you want it to
as early as 13 or as late as 20, depending on how you distribute and prioritize
Altho the same is true for IDS, as early as 11 or as late as 20

[bid]

Level 12: Tough OR +2 Cha
Con+2 is stronger than tough. Sure you only get 1hp now, but you get another hp as soon as you spend some HD during a short rest. And then it helps all Con saves.

[Lines]

12w/8p needs Pact of the Blade
12p/8w does not

and it can come online as early or as late as you want it to
as early as 13 or as late as 20, depending on how you distribute and prioritize
Altho the same is true for IDS, as early as 11 or as late as 20

Yeah, but taking 11 of paladin means you aren't wasting the pact boon.

[Talamare]

Yeah, but taking 11 of paladin means you aren't wasting the pact boon.

and 12 Warlock means 5th level spells on Warlock and 3 Spells Casted per rest


Con+2 is stronger than tough. Sure you only get 1hp now, but you get another hp as soon as you spend some HD during a short rest. And then it helps all Con saves.

You're right, Altho since you have a number of HD equal to your Level, I suppose they both end up being 2 HP per level, just in a different way.
Then Con gets an advantage to saves. So yea, strictly better

[Citan]

Choose your Fighting Style, Blade and Shield vs Polearm
Get Feats for One of the 2, not both

Hex only halfway helps Shoves, Yes it imposes a Disadvantage on STR or DEX Checks, but the target can always choose the one that isn't Hexed. Tho, not every monster has high of both.

You need 15 STR for Heavy Armor, 16 is the usual key stopping points for a lot of Paladins

Shillelagh is awesome... Until you get like an awesome +2 Weapon or something then it sucks ass and makes you regret having it...

I'm guessing your total levels will be 12p/8w?

Tough is a really powerful feat, but so is Resilient. Paladins have a slightly easier time with Concentration checks than other casters because they add CHA to all saves at lv6
Because of the above, CHA kinda of becomes your Primary stat even before considering the fact you're a Warlock as well.

Warlock adds a TON of tanking to Paladins due to being able to basically spam Armor of Agathys, which is why 12w/8p can be REALLY strong as well, but would NEED Pact of the Blade
Hi all ;)

I'm frankly not sure "spamming" Armor of Agathys would be the best use of slots.
With that said, going Warlock main is indeed a very viable choice: P8/W12 means you get 2 more Invocations, one more cantrip and lvl 10 Patron feature which can be nice also but indeed requires you to go Pact of the Blade for a melee build.

That's why I usually prefer going Paladin main because...

1) It frees the Warlock Pact for either Tome or Chain for only a minor loss of damage (average 4,5 instead of 5 with max CHA).
Tome: the argument about magic weapon against Shillelagh does not hold imo. Having a way to get SAD even for "only" half a career is great in itself. And unless the DM is a meanie, he could arrange to provide a magic club or quarterstaff. You can also pick up useful cantrips such as Guidance, Produce Flame (especially for Undying Light Warlock), Thorn Whip or Minor Illusions to complement the ones available to Warlock.
Also, being SAD means you can potentially use an ASI on feat: coincidence, Polearm Master works with quarterstaff. ;) Getting more opportunity attacks is worth keeping it imo (although I find getting both Polearm Master and Warcaster pretty much redundant, since we know that combining both to cast a spell when someone enters reach is NOT allowed).
Chain means you can get resistance to magic which is great for any build.

2) You also get lvl 3 spells from Paladin, most of which can be very good (Elemental Weapon and Magic Circle are situationally great, you also get Aura of Vitality, Revivify and Dispel Magic which are great to have in any situation).

3) You are a bit sturdier (1d10 > 1d6 means ~10 hp more, not significant but every bit helps).

As for spell slots though...
P12/W8 means you get 4 lvl 1, 3 lvl 2, 3 lvl 3 long rest + 2*lvl4 short rest. Enough for max smite or great spells such as Greater Invisibility.

P8/W12 means you get 4 lvl 1 and 3 lvl2 long rest + 3*lvl5 short rest.

Meaning that, IF only the DM follows the encounter guidelines and allows 2 short rest in the day...
P12/W8: 4*1 + 3*2 + 3*3 + 6*4 (in spell points: 8+9+15+36= 68)
P8/W12: 4*1 + 3*2 + 9*5 (in spell points: 8+9+63= 80).
Warlock "main" is clearly superior in terms of spell power. (I converted is spell points to give an easier point of comparison).

With only 1 short rest though, it's very similar (56 vs 59) and if for any reason you cannot take a short rest during the day Warlock falls out.

As far as planning go, I'd daresay it would be dangerous to count on 2 short rests every day of every session, as well as getting hands on magic weapons (unless you know your DM well enough to be sure of these points).

So my personal conclusion would be that Warlock main is a great choice if you have a precise playstyle in mind (especially in terms of spells and Invocations choice). Otherwise the Paladin main is easier to build and play and is probably a bit more versatile. ;)

[Arkhios]

Firstly, a thing that's often overlooked: Chainmail is a good heavy armor and it requires only STR 13 to avoid speed penalty. Of course Plate is better, but seriously, a chainmail can carry a long time.

If you plan on Shillelagh+PAM, iirc, the feat doesn't require a weapon being held in two hands, so you could indeed go for Staff&Board with Dueling style. AC starts at 18, plus all magical boosts. (FYI, Quarterstaff is one-handed versatile weapon in this edition)

Lorewise, I actually like your thought about switching oaths from Devotion(charade) to Ancients(e.g. fey lords). OotA encourages to enjoy life, in all of its beauty, and that's basically what (good) fey creatures do.

OotA's spells and Nature's Wrath Channel Divinity combined with Ensnaring Strike, Shillelagh (and if I may add, Thorn Whip) are amazing combination lorewise, when both your Oath and Pact have something to do with Fey.

PS. I'd suggest not to pay any heed to this powergamist nonsense about +2 weapon being better than flavorful choice of druids' favorite magic stick ;)

[tieren]

I think you also need to give some thought to what your relationship with Eldritch Blast is going to be.

While you are planning on hitting stuff with your magic stick, which is necessary for smites, you also have the best ranged cantrip in the game, and the ability to give it knockback for the control OP mentioned.

Using EB you can stay at range so the issue of plate or chain isn't as big of a deal, and it scales with character level so you don't have to race through paladin to get to extra attack before taking any warlock and still keep up with your dpr.

I am working on a similar concept and while I didn't start off trying to make a ranged blaster he sort of ended up that way. I use a variety of movement tricks to get in close and whack stuff for smites when I want to nova something down fast (like misty step), but then can misty escape back out when I want to return to at will damage (or knock my opponent away with EB).

How you resolve this issue will impact the p8/w12 or p12/w8 question as well. If you really decide whacking is going to be your focus, go for improved divine smite. If you decide you're going to be casting and controlling and blasting, go for the extra spell power.

[Citan]

I think you also need to give some thought to what your relationship with Eldritch Blast is going to be.

While you are planning on hitting stuff with your magic stick, which is necessary for smites, you also have the best ranged cantrip in the game, and the ability to give it knockback for the control OP mentioned.

How you resolve this issue will impact the p8/w12 or p12/w8 question as well. If you really decide whacking is going to be your focus, go for improved divine smite. If you decide you're going to be casting and controlling and blasting, go for the extra spell power.
Very sound advice indeed.
Also note that technically Eldricht Blast can be cast off War Caster, as long as you target only one creature ("the spell... must target only that creature" technically does not prevent multiray spells such as Eldricht Blast, Magic Missiles or Scorching Ray to be used if you concentrate everything on the same creature).

This means that you could actually work a build that relies mainly on Eldricht Blast and shield (that's actually one of my build tbh: combine Warcaster with Crossbow Expert to blast Eldricht Blast in any situation, including directly into the face of someone that just attacked you).

[Foxhound438]

Choose your Fighting Style, Blade and Shield vs Polearm
Get Feats for One of the 2, not both



PAM gives quarterstaffs a bonus action attack even if you're only holding it in one hand, so polearm and board is in fact a thing you can do.

[mer.c]

Thanks for all the advice, folks! I'd considered the Eldritch Blast method, and while it does work really well off of a War Caster opportunity attack, it just feels really weird with this character. Plus, our playgroup is probably rebalancing EB a little bit, not to nerf it but to make the opportunity cost higher. (Right now, looking at Agonizing Blast gives +Cha to one ray, and can be concentrated on to give the bonus to the rest. Concentration on Hex + AB can be maintained with a feat. And pushing with EB means the spell deals no damage to that target.)

Point definitely taken about +2 to Con instead of Tough. In fact, with heavy armor, shield, possible Shield of Faith, Shield Master, and 14 starting Con, plus being able to buff with Mirror Image, she'll be pretty tough to begin with. Given the Warlock levels won't come until character level 7 or 8, Armor of Agathys probably won't be the best use of slots. I'd imagine, anyways.

I imagine the point of "Paladin 12 or else Pact of the Blade" is in reference to the damage loss of Improved Divine Smite being made up for with Lifedrinker, correct? But considering this would probably by a Tyranny of Dragons character, I imagine she'd probably top out around 16. That being the case, getting Paladin to 11 or Warlock to 12 would mean getting at most 5 or 4 levels in the other (and for Pact of the Blade, giving up Shillelagh, Book of Secrets, etc.). Personally, I don't think that's worth it, but if I end up taking it to level 20, I can see Warlock 9/Paladin 11. (Remember, my playgroup does the usual ASI progression tied to character level, with only the Fighter/Rogue extra ASI are tied to class level.) Currently, I'm planning on having Paladin 7/Warlock 9 at level 16, getting the super-thematic and damn strong Auras of Protection/Warding, picking up the critical Pact of the Tome by 10 at latest, and then being able to flesh out the Warlock-prankster side of things. Losing the extra 5th-level spell per short rest from Warlock 11 does hurt, but I don't know if it's 1d8 on every attack + Aura of Courage levels of hurt. ;)

I can see the issue with redundancy in Polearm Master/War Caster, but War Caster is great for a ton of reasons (Concentration advantage on a concentration-heavy class, easy casting, Booming Blade opportunity attack if enemy tries to move away), and Polearm Master goes a long ways to making up for the lack of Improved Divine Smite when you consider it adds another 1d4+Cha + 1d6 from Hex. Starting with 18 in her all-important Cha thanks to Tiefling, I think she should be able to do fine taking both feats. If I really need to drop something, it would probably be Shield Master, although its synergies are really strong for this build (semi-Evasion + Aura of Protection AND free shove vs. weaker stat because of Hex).

Thanks again for the advice! I feel like I'm at a really sound place with the build now, and I'm glad the lore sounds… sound! Looking forward to trying her out! :)

[tieren]

I can see the issue with redundancy in Polearm Master/War Caster, but War Caster is great for a ton of reasons (Concentration advantage on a concentration-heavy class, easy casting, Booming Blade opportunity attack if enemy tries to move away), and Polearm Master goes a long ways to making up for the lack of Improved Divine Smite when you consider it adds another 1d4+Cha + 1d6 from Hex. Starting with 18 in her all-important Cha thanks to Tiefling, I think she should be able to do fine taking both feats.

Keep in mind Polearm Master will also compete with Hex for your bonus actions. When your party is focus firing through a group of enemies it will not be unusual for you to need to spend your Bonus Action moving the Hex target nearly every round. You will then need to decide to either move Hex to your new target or just whack it with the butt end attack without the benefit of Hex, in which case you would be better concentrating on something else. As Hex would boost your normal attack and extra attack it will generally be better to move it than to take the extra 1d4 + Cha.