[PF] New to PF but Expert at 3.5: Build Help Requested: "Generalist" Dwarf Cleric

[Endarire]

Rumal, the Displaced Dwarven Prince - "Human" (really a Dwarf) Cleric20

My Player Background
Greetings, all! I'm Endarire. I've played D&D 3.5 extensively, but mostly Wizards. I played 1E (possibly), 2E (definitely), Baldur's Gate I & II, Icewind Dale I & II, Temple of Elemental Evil, Dungeons & Dragons Online (DDO), and other D&D games. I have a general idea of what it means to be an effective 3.5 Wizard at levels 1-6. My longest-lasting campaign was about 16 months when I was main GM, and the group played from level 1 to level 21. (They could have leveled after that, but the game was over.)

I have briefly played other classes in 3.5 - Clerics and Sorcerers among them - but Wizards got the majority of my time. I'm playing Pathfinder because that's what's being offered and that's what I'm curious about.

I know Pathfinder and 3.5 are similar, but notably and sometimes subtly different (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?136890-The-3-5-Pathfinder-Handbook). However, I'm stepping into Pathfinder generally fresh. I've barely played it, and what I have played was a mid-level Wizard/Swordsage in a 3.P campaign and a variety of Psions in an arena campaign.

Character Vision
RP-wise, this is a CG Dwarf Cleric (who believes he's a Human). He was rushed to safety as a lad after his "father's" kingdom was about to fall. His nurse maid accidentally killed the real prince, but swore to herself to protect this child, who, to her dim eyes, looks (or at least looked) remarkably like the young prince! This is primarily inspired by Mephibosheth from the Bible (2 Samuel chapters 4 and 9), Pirates of Penzance's Ruth and Frederic, and Temple of Elemental Evil's Prince Thrommel.

Mechanically, I want this character to be good at generally everything. I'm a Cleric in Pathfinder. I have options. These are my approximate present priorities, from highest to lowest:

1: Poking things with sticks. I prefer Longspears due to not needing any feats or multiclassing. I chose this weapon type due to being effective (especially with Combat Reflexes) without taking actions. Enlarge person and righteous might (oh, how I miss the 3.5 full BAB version!) and similar size increasers go a long way toward increasing my off-turn and on-turn viability.

2: Casting spells. I am a full caster. I lump 'casting' in here as a general thing, because sometimes buffs are the best. Sometimes summoning is the best. Sometimes preparing heal is the best.

3: Healing. I'm getting spontaneous curing via positive energy channeling, but my CHA is a dump stat. While I may heal outside of combat, or in combat during emergency situations, I'm primarily avoiding or deterring the need for us to heal.

4: A smidge of everything else. Being good at all skills is not this character's immediate forte.

In short, I like having a d8 HD, 2 domains, 3/4 BAB, 2 good saves, and access to the entire Cleric spell list at full casting progression at the same time. Thus, the archetypes and PrCs I've read about for Clerics haven't tremendously appealed to me. If you can find me something better, then please list it here!

Character Creation Rules and Sources
This character is for BladeAndBow, a group of organized play for Pathfinder participants. It's not Pathfinder Society, but a similar organization. Full rules are at the Required Reading Forum (http://bladeandbow.boards.net/board/4/required-reading).

The most important ones are thus:
-20 point buy.
-Start at level 1. The end level is undetermined.
-Start with maximum wealth by class at level 1.
-Paizo (first party) material only.
-Core races only.
-Most official classes are allowed. No Summoner.
-2 traits are allowed per character, or 3 with a drawback. No campaign-specific nor Pathfinder Society traits.
-Max HP at first HD, and half this amount rounded down for all subsequent levels.
-Player versus Player (PvP) is possible starting at level 4 via mutual opt-in. PvP is open to all starting at level 6. I'd prefer to avoid PvP.
-Magic items are generally made by contracting with other players. Those with the means (the feats, coin, etc.) may make them personally.
-This is a 'low magic' setting. This implies that magic items I'm especially interested in will need to be player-crafted.
-Nobility and kingdom-building rules are in place for those who want to spend the resources to be treated as royalty in-character. (I may do this and am taking suggestions.)
-1 free character rebuild at character level 5 and below. Unused rebuilds are wasted.

Starting Build and Justifications
Race
Dwarf.

Justification: Normally I'd go Human, but Dwarf gets me +2 CON/WIS, a penalty to a dump stat, 60' Darkvision, the ability to Tumble (or use Acrobatics) in any armor or with any encumbrance, +2 to saves vs. poison and most magic, and a stone-restricted version of Elf Sense. Since I expect to adventure underground a notable amount of the time, and because I like self-sufficiency, these features add to me more than Humanity.

Ability Scores
Ability scores are after Dwarf racial adjustments of +2 CON/WIS, -2 CHA.

-=20 POINT BUY=-
14 STR
14 DEX
14 CON
14 INT
16 WIS
6 CHA

Justification: As a generalist Cleric who doesn't much need CHA, but can benefit from the right bit of everything else, this array seems best.

Domains and Subdomains (Deity: Desna)
-Liberation Domain

-Travel Domain

-Luck Domain (@Exalted5)

Justification: Liberation gets me freedom of movement contingently a certain number of times per day!

Travel gets me fly, teleport, and dimension door. Its domain powers let me ignore difficult terrain and short-range teleport as a move action a certain number of times per day.

Luck @Exalted5 gets me miracle as a spell-like ability 1/day! It's only CL10 and I need to wait until character level 17 to use it, but it seems very worth it!

Feat Plan
1: Combat Reflexes - Poke stuff with sticks off-turn.

3: Deific Obedience - Exalted prereq and +2 Luck initiative (including the bonus from Fate's Favored).

5: Skill Focus: Knowledge (Religion) - Exalted prereq.

7: Improved Initiative - It improves all I do!

Considerations: Craft Wondrous Item gets me access to the most important non-weapon gear. Craft Magic Arms & Armor gets me pokers and anti-pokers (armor).

Skills to Max
-Acrobatics - Tumbling is useful.
-Knowledge (Planes) - I like planes.
-Knowledge (Religion) - Exalted prereq and I can ID Undead. I'm also a Cleric.
-Perception - Super useful overall.

Other Skills
Diplomacy5 - Exalted prereq

Assumption: All favored class (Cleric) bonuses go to skill points.

Traits & Drawback
-Fate's Favored (Faith): +1 to all Luck bonuses. This includes the Desna Dance bonus to initiative!

-Militant Merchant (Racial): +1 Perception to determine surprise and Perception becomes a class skill.

-Reactionary (Combat): +2 trait bonus to initiative. What more need I say?

-Pride (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/drawbacks/pride) (Drawback): -2 on Diplomacy and Sense Motive vs. that creature if challenged or threatened or accussed until that being apologizes.

Starting Spells Prepared
0: Create Water, Light, Stabilize

1: Bless, [Longstrider], Shield of Faith

Justification: The level 0 spells seem like low-level Cleric staples.

The level 1 spells are for self or/and party buffing.

Starting Gear (240G Starting Wealth)
-Longspear
-Studded Leather
-Light Crossbow
-30 Bolts

-Taking suggestions!

Further Questions
-How important is Spellcraft aside from making magic items?

-What abilities exist to reduce the cost of crafting items?

-What spells and feats should I consider for later?

-How do I get more skill points per level aside from favored class bonuses, changing my race, and a higher base INT?

-How do I get more spells known/per day as a Cleric?

-What methods exist to reduce the cost of metamagic feats besides the trait Magical Lineage? Metamagic rods replace the cost. I'm looking for cost reduction.

-Did I miss anything important in this post? If so, what?

[Florian]

Hm ....

"Generalist" and Cleric is a bit harder to pull of than it is with Wizards. You´re much more involved with actual martial combat than those are.

Feats: You´re spot on with the Longspear and Combat Reflexes. Instead of Improved Initiative, you should consider Warrior Priest first, followed by regular Power Attack at 5th. After that it´s Persistent Spell meta magic to make your debuffs cling. Drop crafting, that´s for the classes with bonus feats. Consider Deific Obeisance for later.

Skills: Don´t overdo Acrobatics. Take enough ranks for synergy with Defensive Fighting and leave it at that. You´ll want a medium score on Spellcraft to identify ongoing spell effects and find a way to counter them.

Traits: You definitely want Fate´s Favored to raise any luck bonus by +1. That affects most of your important self-buff spells from the get-go.

Deity and Domains: Drop Trickery. Desna is the go-to deity for adventurers and easy to RP. Liberation and Travel or Luck and Travel are the way to go. Consider aiming for the Exalted PrC (Deific Obeisance as a prereq) so you gain all three domains.

[Endarire]

Cleric of Desna/Evangelist can get me miracle as a spell-like ability! I need Evangelist5 (to pick the Luck Domain as my Expanded Portfolio option) and character level 17, but it's doable! Alleluiah!

I'm excited because SLAs have no material/EXP/component costs. Free resurrection? Simulacrum? Level 8 Cleric spell or level 7 other list spell? Yes! The notable downside is that the caster level is equal to my Evangelist level (max 10), but that's worth it!

Deific Obedience
I found it here (http://karzoug.info/srd/deities/Desna.htm) under the Desna entry @Archives of Nethys!

Cleric Illusion Spells
I want to qualify for Veiled Illusionist. I need 2 more Cleric Illusion spells. Silence is one. What such spells exist of spell level 8 and below?

[Geddy2112]

You picked two(three) of the best domains, almost all the best traits, skills, cleric races, etc. You are fairly optimized.

I agree not maxing acrobatics, just for defensive synergy. Even with full ranks you won't be the best at it and not really need it. Spellcraft is good, but you are feat starved. You won't be channeling a lot or the party face, but you don't plan to be so, should not be an issue.

Light is not all that important since dwarves have darkvision, and stabilize is generally worse than an action in combat. That said, put a rank in heal-the DC to stabilize is 15, so a rank+class bonus+wis mod will always pass on a 10, and pass on an 8 with a check. Once you get the skill to +24 you get the max use of it, and it is good for out of combat healing and treating poison/disease so you don't have to prepare situational spells

Detect magic is the most powerful spell in the game, even in a low magic setting. I would say it is doubly important in a low magic setting.

[Florian]

Cleric of Desna/Evangelist can get me miracle as a spell-like ability! I need Evangelist5 (to pick the Luck Domain as my Expanded Portfolio option) and character level 17, but it's doable! Alleluiah!

I'm excited because SLAs have no material/EXP/component costs. Free resurrection? Simulacrum? Level 8 Cleric spell or level 7 other list spell? Yes! The notable downside is that the caster level is equal to my Evangelist level (max 10), but that's worth it!

Deific Obedience
I found it here (http://karzoug.info/srd/deities/Desna.htm) under the Desna entry @Archives of Nethys!

Cleric Illusion Spells
I want to qualify for Veiled Illusionist. I need 2 more Cleric Illusion spells. Silence is one. What such spells exist of spell level 8 and below?

Exalted really is a nice option for clerics.The third domain and Miracle as SLA are fun.

If you want to plan ahead this far, I´d recommend taking a look at the whole summoning feat chain.
Spell Focus Conjuration (annoying prereq) > Augmented Summoning (Tougher and harder hitting monsters) > Superior Summoning (+1 monster per summons) > Sacred Summons (Summon as standard action) > Summon Good Monster (Upgraded Summon List).
Clerics actually do have superior summoning options due to Sacred Summons. The CG list is a bit weaker, but has some great support SLA-monsters.

You should also familiarize yourself with the Planar Ally options of your deity. Desna has the Night Monarch (Cr 15) and the Thyrlien Azata (CR 4). The later are actually a quite good Lesser Planar Ally option, as they are nearly cheap and bring a good all-round mix of SLA to the game (You want two of them for CLW/Magic Missile spam)

I see a slight problem with the Veiled Illusionist, as the PrC is bound to the deity Sivanah. That´s the usual conflict with the cleric class.

[Endarire]

Thanks everyone for your tremendous help with this!

I considered Samsaran, but the game is core races only. Thus, Dwarf. And it was still good.

What gear and feats should I especially prepare for? What spells are especially spiffy?

Veiled Illusionist has no mechanical prereqs of deity worship, unlike the feat Deific Obedience.

What Acrobatics bonus would I need to make the skill worthwhile past level 5?

[Florian]

Thanks everyone for your tremendous help with this!

I considered Samsaran, but the game is core races only. Thus, Dwarf. And it was still good.

What gear and feats should I especially prepare for? What spells are especially spiffy?

Veiled Illusionist has no mechanical prereqs of deity worship, unlike the feat Deific Obedience.

What Acrobatics bonus would I need to make the skill worthwhile past level 5?

Ok. Be aware that PF source material is split into setting-agnostic and setting-bound sources.
You´ll find out that the official PRD only has the setting-agnostic material, the Archives of Nethys has the setting-bound material in its original version and the D20PFSRD has the setting-bound material in a reworked version so that it can be used as setting-agnostic material.

For setting-bound material, the fluff is considered to be rules and "always true". That´s why you won´t find things from the fluff repeated in the prereq block, as that "only" covers the mechanical part.

(You´ll notice that topic coming up in some build discussion, whether the fluff should be disregarded or not, especially when the topic of "traits" comes up and stuff like two different regional traits are used in a build)

The Veiled Illusionist is from Paths of Prestige, a setting-bound source, so ...

Gear:
You have the usual and boring core equipment: Weapon +X, Armor +X, Cloak of Resistance/Amulett of Natural Armor +X, Belt of Physical Perfection (STR + DEX + CON) +X, Headband of Mental Prowess (WIS + CHA) +X.

Then the usual set of "casting endurance" items, i.e. Wand of CLW, Wand of Celestial Healing, the whole bunch of instant-remedy scrolls (Restoration and stuff), Pearls of Power and some solid Staff of your choice.

If you want to get into Summoning, then a Visage of the Bound and some of the "enabler" Rings ain´t a bad choice (example: Ring of Azata Summoning upgrades the summon list with some Azata)

Beyond that, 1+ Quick Runner´s Shirt, Boots of Striding and Springing, some good Metamagic Rods, especially Dazing, a Mitre of the Hierophant, Cleric´s Vestment, some Soul Soap and a bunch of Candles of Invocation.

That´s a very basic equipment rollout, but against regular bestiary monsters, it just works.

Spells:
Divine Favour, Divine Power, Channel Vigor, the Angelic Aspect line of spells.
Hold Person, Chains of Light, Ill Omen.

[Spore]

Although I generally prefer Oracles (with the Human or Halfelf/Halforc favorite class bonus) to clerics I have some advice about divine spellcasters in Pathfinder.

First of all, my preferred stat spread after racial mods:

Str 15 (first increase here)
Dex 12 (you'll thank me when you get heavy armor prof for the adamantine full plate)
Con 14 (that is enough you have enough spells to offset poor HP, and you have good Fort saves as well as Dwarven bonusses)
Int 12 (extra skill point)
Wis 16 (just avoid spells that target saves, okay?)
Cha 12 (tanking Charisma just isnt worth it)

1) Feats to consider:
Heavy Armor Proficiency (CRB): not only for AC which you can buff up to ludicrous degrees with the Defense Subdomain but also for the DR 3/- you get from an Adamantine version of any heavy armor
Steel Soul (APG): straight +2 to saves for almost any ability because most are magical
Power Attack (CRB): even better now in Pathfinder, trade -1 tohit for +2/+3 damage on onehanded/twohanded weapons
Scribe Scoll (CRB): sounds pretty basic but if you truly NEED stuff that you haven't prepped you either have to leave some slots open or you just write the important things down. Things like Remove Curse, Restoration, Remove Disease, Neutralize Poison. Basically anything that can cripple your or your allies' combat performance.
Improved Initiative: For this to really shine you need some group buffs to be prepared (like Blessing of Fervor which is Haste 2.0) in order to press your enemies into a disadvantage

2) Skills to consider:
Perception, Know Religion, Spellcraft, Sense Motive (you can cover four if you take favored class bonus in skills)

3) Alternate racial features:
Anything that replaces Defensive Training and Hatred as they don't fit your style: Lasting Grudge gives you +1 on attack rolls against anyone who attacked you in the last day.

4) Domains:
I'd aim for Protection and Heroism. Really anything that keeps you alive and enables you to be a force multiplier. I don't know Golarion gods very well so I will stay silent about that chapter.

5) Spells:
Up until you have coped with switching systems (because Pathfinder's changes are not obvious at all and might change your turns) you can stick to the CRB spells and be relatively successful. I am gonna point you towards the "golden" ones in the main book line:

1.
Liberating Command: swift action cast Give an ally a shot at any Escape Artist check with a bonus of twice your caster level (up to +20)


2.
Blessing of Courage and Life: You heal a target BEFORE the fight and give it some mediocre boni.
Grace: swift action cast lets you reposition on the battlefield without AoOs.
Protection from Evil, Communal: Communal spells let you split up a spell's duration upon multiple touched allies.

3.
Resist Energy, Communal
Archon's Aura: save or suffer -2 on saves and AC until they hit you (which might be hard with high AC due to Protection Domain)

4.
Blessing of Fervor: Cast on your allies. Each ally gets to pick one for EVERY turn afterwards:
Increase its speed by 30 feet.
Stand up as a swift action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
Make one extra attack as part of a full attack action, using its highest base attack bonus.
Gain a +2 bonus on attack rolls and a +2 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves.
Cast a single spell of 2nd level or lower as if it were an enlarged, extended, silent, or still spell.

Spiritual Ally: It flanks and makes attacks with the rare force energy type. If your deity sports a ranged weapon as favored though it cannot flank sadly. Drops the usefulness down.

Debiliating Portent: Enemy makes (scaling!) save every turn or does half damage. Has to reroll the save for the entire duration. You cannot save vs. the spell itself.

Aura of Doom: AoE shaken condition. Shaken is -2 on attacks, saves, skill checks. Sadly a fear effect so undead and constructs are outright immune.

5.
Air Walk, Communal: chances are your whole party wants to "fly" when you need to cast it
Holy Ice: A weaker version of Wall of Stone. If you pick the ice spears however and combine the spell with Divine Power supposed should give you +1 on damage with EVERY spear. Not exactly RAI and might be frowned upon by your DM. And DR stops this spell hard as the spears don't count as magical.

6.
Cold Ice Strike: swift action "Line of Cold". xd6 damage, with a reflex save you can't often target

I won't even delve into gear.

[Florian]

4) Domains:
I'd aim for Protection and Heroism. Really anything that keeps you alive and enables you to be a force multiplier. I don't know Golarion gods very well so I will stay silent about that chapter.

None of the core deities features this combination. There´re some rather obscure Empyreal Lords that have it, but who wants to be a cleric of a deity concerned with "Cowards, the untested, youths"? (Jaidz)

[Spore]

That's why I prefer clerics of philosophies (or not playing clerics at all).

[Endarire]

Thank you, everyone!

This has been more than I expected to consider, but it's still good to hear from a variety of perspectives. I'm a fan of non-full spontaneous casters just due to the small number of spells known. I also wanted to try a Cleric as a main character, something I haven't done in a long time.

How important is summoning in PF? What about melee combat after about level 5? I like the notion of not running out of stamina, and spear poking helps a lot in th
at regard.

[Spore]

How important is summoning in PF?

Seeing as the only T2 class that gets that much hate is the summoner I figure summoning is quite powerful. I just find the Summon Monster list very all over the place for a decent divine caster. I know a NG cleric cannot summon demons or devils with that but I feel that even a Hound Archon is quite weird on a servant of a CG/CN deity.


What about melee combat after about level 5?

There is the problem of action economy in the later levels. To get the numbers of a Fighter on say 9th level, you need to cast Aid, Divine Power and maybe Shield or Shield of Faith. That's 3-4 actions, 2-3 if you cast Aid at some clever point before the fight.

[Florian]

What about melee combat after about level 5? I like the notion of not running out of stamina, and spear poking helps a lot in that regard.

*Shrugs*

You have a 3/4 BAB, so chances are good that you hit something. You´ll have a hard time coming near the sheer combat performance/DPR of the dedicated martial classes, even when fully buffed, tho, so don´t even try to outperform a Fighter.

(Edit: Part of the reason why I see getting further weapon or armor proficiencies on a Cleric as pretty much of a waste)


How important is summoning in PF?

If you push it with feats, that _is_ your main combat solution after you reach level 5 and can access SM III. Only the Summoner class is better at this than the Cleric is.
Before you pick Summon Good Monster, you have a nice selection of Meat Shield-type of monsters like Foo Dog/Foo Lion, after that, you gain the whole SLA-packed utility monsters and that gives you pure casting endurance. Spent 1 Slots to gain a critter that casts 7 spells for you? Fair deal, I´d say.

(Check Monster Summoner´s Handbook for the updated summon list and the deity-specific summon list, and Champions of Purity for the Summon Good Monster feat and expanded summon list going with it.).

You´ll want to prepare a list of your "regulars" and have stat blocks at hand to speed up handling in combat.

Me, I like having a Lillend as "Replacement Bard", some Lyrakien for Magic Missile spamming and something Huge like the Behemoth Hippopotamus to block an area at hand.

[El Dorado]

Brewer's Reach Cleric Guide (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p68o?New-Class-Guide-Reach-Cleric) is a pretty good resource for the type of cleric you're building.

[Endarire]

Thankee, everyone! All of you have been a tremendous help in figuring out this new system. (It's like Dark Souls vs. Dark Souls II: Lots of the same stuff at the surface level, but rearranged so much that it feels ridiculous sometimes.)

[Florian]

Thankee, everyone! All of you have been a tremendous help in figuring out this new system. (It's like Dark Souls vs. Dark Souls II: Lots of the same stuff at the surface level, but rearranged so much that it feels ridiculous sometimes.)

Post your final build and report your game experience with it then. Feedback is always nice to have.