Battle Master Maneuver Decisions

[Master O'Laughs]

Hi everyone,

Just hit lvl 3 in my 5e campaign I am playing in. I am playing a ranged fighter and am trying to figure out what three maneuvers to choose first.

I like Tripping Attack, Menacing Attack, Goading Attack, Precision Attack and to a lesser extent Parry, Distracting Strike, Pushing Attack, and Maneuvering Attack.

I am trying to figure out what would be the best 3 to start with. I plan on being up close and personal once I hit lvl 4 and take crossbow expert.

We do use a grid for fights and our party consists of a vuman war cleric, gnome old one warlock (unsure which path he is going but most likely tome or chain), High Elf Arcane Trickster Rogue, Gnome Divination Wizard, Wood Elf Open Palm Monk, and myself a Warforged Battlemaster Fighter

[Citan]

Hi everyone,

Just hit lvl 3 in my 5e campaign I am playing in. I am playing a ranged fighter and am trying to figure out what three maneuvers to choose first.


Hi!

Most of them are very good. A few things to keep in mind though:

1. Trip Attack (and Distracting Strike)
Even at 5 feet from your target, you will still be making ranged attacks if you use a ranged weapon. So, while Crossbow Expert offsets the disadvantage from being close, if you wanted to use Trip Attack on an enemy, technically by RAW you would put yourself at disadvantage against subsequent attacks unless you stick to the 5 feet distance.
Not intrisically a drawback but it could be.
Depends mainly on if your playstyle:
- if you take Crossbow Expert just in case you have to fight at close range, it's not optimal.
- if you plan on being always 5feet close to your target, it's great.

With that said, it's a great ability to have as far as teamwork goes, with a War Cleric, Monk and Rogue being ready to gang up on any creature you put prone.
So, unless someone else in your group has a reliable way to provide advantage on melee attacks, I'd say it's a very good one.

As for Distracting Strike, maybe I just didn't realize the true potential for it, but unless being in a party with no melee allies, I find it strictly inferior to Trip Attack in most use-cases (it WOULD be better in some cases such as a ranged Rogue pal though).

2. Menacing Attack / Goading Attack.
Both are good in opposite situations, even if it lasts only one turn:
- if you plan on being in melee, Menacing attack is better, because you will probably want to avoid being targeted (since you have allies with better AC or Evasion).
- for a ranged character, Goading is better because it basically means you tank from afar. :)

Actually, you could say that Menacing is plain better in both cases because frightened means disadvantages on ALL attack rolls, even against you, as well as ability checks, while targeting the same save. But if you are at range, it could be easier for the creature to end the effect by breaking the line of sight to you (taking full cover behind something, having a friend blocking line of sight with a spell or such). Very much "thinking in the void" though. If you are unsure, take Menacing and just use it when you're sure the creature has no way to break the effect. It will do great to protect your pals and enable them to Shove/Grapple a creature (meaning they won't even need you to Trip Attack the creature to get it prone ;)).

3. Pushing and Manoeuvering Attack
These are good but maybe not the best ones to choose from: Monk can push already, Monk and Rogue have good mobility so they should not require external help to get the best position most of the time. War Cleric can use cantrips so doesn't need such mobility either.
In summary, probably not the best choices in the context of your party.

4. Precision Attack
Always a very good one to have. With that said, you don't have any "nova" capability as a Battlemaster and you can't use two Manoeuvers on the same attack. So the only real added value here is to offset Sharpshooter or to ensure you can finish off someone.
Take it only if you feel you miss too often when it counts OR your Cleric doesn't usually targets you with Bless (which he should do though imo). Otherwise this is not a required one.

5. Parry (and Evasive Footwork)
It's a great manoeuver to learn at low level, although it falls off later imo.
A very good choice if you plan on being on melee.
Consider Evasive Footwork though either now or later, if you notice you got a habit of moving in a way that makes you opened to multiple Attacks of Opportunity. Even a +2 to your AC could make a difference while you rush in or out the enemy lines. :)

EDIT: Once you get more levels anre more Extra Attacks, don't forget to consider Commander's Strike since you have a Rogue. It does take its reaction but it means an extra Sneak Attack since it's another turn and does not depend on a creature's movement triggering Opportunity Attack.

[Douche]

You could argue that maneuvering attack doesn't invoke AoO. Not really, since it's still voluntary movement... But I think we accidentally did that last session cuz no one thought about it too much. Now that I took the time to suggest it to someone, though, it doesn't make sense. It should totally invoke an AoO.

But maybe you could ask your DM to allow maneuvering attack to be a de-facto disengage to an ally. That would make it super useful for helping to protect your squishies n such.

[Citan]

You could argue that maneuvering attack doesn't invoke AoO. Not really, since it's still voluntary movement... But I think we accidentally did that last session cuz no one thought about it too much. Now that I took the time to suggest it to someone, though, it doesn't make sense. It should totally invoke an AoO.

But maybe you could ask your DM to allow maneuvering attack to be a de-facto disengage to an ally. That would make it super useful for helping to protect your squishies n such.
Hey ;)
Sorry, I don't understand your point: aren't you mixing up Manoeuvering with another one (like, Pushing Attack)?

Because Manoeuvering is precisely about allowing a friendly to disengage freely: it's a friend you make move, not the target of your attack. :)

[Master O'Laughs]

Thanks Citan. With that I think I will lean towards menacing attack, Trip attack, and maybe one of the defensive ones. At lvl 7 I will possibly take Commanders and precision.

I am thinking trip would always be my last attack so as to allow my allies advantage if it fails the ST. By my next turn it may be dead or stood back up. Once I hit lvl 4 I will be in the thick of it most of the time. I also may try to get a magic hand Xbow or gnomish invention that allows me to reload it without a free hand. thereby allowing me to use a shield.

[Joe the Rat]

Trip Attack at range is definitely a team player maneuver. It's also effectively a slowing attack - they loose half of their move on their next turn to stand up (or 1/4 if they stand and dash).

I forget, does proning knock fliers out of the sky? That would be exceedingly useful at low levels.

[Master O'Laughs]

Trip Attack at range is definitely a team player maneuver. It's also effectively a slowing attack - they loose half of their move on their next turn to stand up (or 1/4 if they stand and dash).

I forget, does proning knock fliers out of the sky? That would be exceedingly useful at low levels.

I think it does.

[RulesJD]

Munchkin perspective:

The best maneuver is Precision because as an archer you want to grab Sharpshooter asap. No other maneuver offers as much damage potential as Precision.

After that, Frightening attack to both impose disadvantage and to prevent an enemy from closing to melee against your allies.

[Douche]

Hey ;)
Sorry, I don't understand your point: aren't you mixing up Manoeuvering with another one (like, Pushing Attack)?

Because Manoeuvering is precisely about allowing a friendly to disengage freely: it's a friend you make move, not the target of your attack. :)

I don't have the book near me, and I don't remember off-hand - so I don't know if the wording says that you dont invoke a AoO - but yes I was saying that your allies are the ones to move.

If the wording of the maneuvering attack allows them to move without invoking an AoO, then it's a pretty good ability for protecting your teammates.

[djreynolds]

Grab the Scout from UA and then snag martial adept, and take disarm and menacing. It comes with precision and a "powered-up" parry, its like defensive duelist and uncanny dodge rolled into one. Light/medium armor requirements and the scouting buffs.

Disarm, trip, menacing, precision for Battle Master. Disarm that arcane focus? possibly?

[Citan]

Grab the Scout from UA and then snag martial adept, and take disarm and menacing. It comes with precision and a "powered-up" parry, its like defensive duelist and uncanny dodge rolled into one. Light/medium armor requirements and the scouting buffs.

Disarm, trip, menacing, precision for Battle Master. Disarm that arcane focus? possibly?
Rereading the UA, I noticed something which I hope (or maybe not tells my munchkin soul) was an oversight: contrarily to Manoeuvers, there is no explicit restriction on the fact that you can use only one superiority dice per attack.
This was probably deemed unnecessary since the Scout gets only one ability related to attacks.
It means though that it could become interesting to combine with spellless Ranger's Manoeuvers, which are by RAW something different, because it means you could combine the "precision attack" from Scout with any manoeuver you learn from Ranger. To ensure for example that you get a chance to Disarm or Trip.
It's not overpowered since you still consume two precious resources, but I can see some nice synergies here. ;)

[djreynolds]

Mr Citan, my friend the scout rocks. Their special parry is awesome, and they get 7 feats. And they only need wisdom for saves and skills, 13 +1 for resilient wisdom. Max out dexterity, and snag that magic initiate and get a good cantrip like booming blade to open up melee. Heck throw in 5 levels of ranger, and now we are really cooking.

[Sir Pippin Boyd]

As a battlemaster, the best choices will not be cut-and-dry for every character, and the optimal choice will vary based on your party's composition. You ideally want to go with choices that 1) Avoid overlap with the party 2) Synergize with the party's choices 3) Fill in gaps in the party's overall composition

That said, I think the best role it seems you can play in that party is that of a meat shield. You've already got a ton of CC, combat utility, and damage coming from the rest of the party, and a big ol' pile of hit points with defensive synergies can complement that very well.

While Im normally a big fan of Trip Attack, I'd throw that out since you've got an Open Palm monk in your party, and he can trip people with his Flurry of Blows. Menacing Attack, on the other hand, benefits you significantly more with a monk in the party, since the disadvantage to ability checks includes the opposed Athletics/Acrobatics checks used to resist grappling.

Goading Attack is another good candidate for this very caster-heavy party. If any of those casters are min-maxing at all, theres no way they have good dex, good con, and still perform their primary function optimally. Goading Attack isn't about imposing disadvantage, but about the implied control of target selection that happens when enemies naturally attack you instead to avoid it. Naturally a better choice if you're wearing a shield and when paired with Parry.

[Master O'Laughs]

As a battlemaster, the best choices will not be cut-and-dry for every character, and the optimal choice will vary based on your party's composition. You ideally want to go with choices that 1) Avoid overlap with the party 2) Synergize with the party's choices 3) Fill in gaps in the party's overall composition

That said, I think the best role it seems you can play in that party is that of a meat shield. You've already got a ton of CC, combat utility, and damage coming from the rest of the party, and a big ol' pile of hit points with defensive synergies can complement that very well.

While Im normally a big fan of Trip Attack, I'd throw that out since you've got an Open Palm monk in your party, and he can trip people with his Flurry of Blows. Menacing Attack, on the other hand, benefits you significantly more with a monk in the party, since the disadvantage to ability checks includes the opposed Athletics/Acrobatics checks used to resist grappling.

Goading Attack is another good candidate for this very caster-heavy party. If any of those casters are min-maxing at all, theres no way they have good dex, good con, and still perform their primary function optimally. Goading Attack isn't about imposing disadvantage, but about the implied control of target selection that happens when enemies naturally attack you instead to avoid it. Naturally a better choice if you're wearing a shield and when paired with Parry.

So you would suggest Menacing Attack, Goading Attack and Parry?

Also, we rolled for stats 4d6 drop lowest and we had unlimited reroll of the stat blocks within reason. Everyone has 1 very high, 1 high, 2 good, 1 average, and 1 bad stat. I had rolled an 18, 16, 15, 8, 11, 13 roughly and I am middle of the pack in how good i rolled.

The war cleric rolled exceptionally well for hit points at lvl 2. so our melee line is Cleric Monk Rogue. Cleric has 18 AC with shield, the monk has 18 AC, and the rogue has 16 AC.

[Master O'Laughs]

Okay, so I think for lvl 3 I am leaning towards menacing attack, precision attack, and parry/evasive footwork. We have not had a lot of combat so far so I am unsure which defensive maneuver would be better.

It is a shame the monk kinda over shadows me in the trip department, but oh well.

[RulesJD]

Okay, so I think for lvl 3 I am leaning towards menacing attack, precision attack, and parry/evasive footwork. We have not had a lot of combat so far so I am unsure which defensive maneuver would be better.

It is a shame the monk kinda over shadows me in the trip department, but oh well.

Trip attack is okay for you, but Menacing will almost always be better as a ranged fighter.

[Citan]

Okay, so I think for lvl 3 I am leaning towards menacing attack, precision attack, and parry/evasive footwork. We have not had a lot of combat so far so I am unsure which defensive maneuver would be better.

It is a shame the monk kinda over shadows me in the trip department, but oh well.
Good choices. :)
Between Parry and Evasive, I'd say it depends on your objectives and playstyle.

If you like to rush in lines without waiting for your melee friends, Evasive is the one to go.
If you fight side-to-side and plan on being one of the main targets for enemy attacks, Parry is the best choice.
If you plan on being aggressive and get opportunity attacks as often as possible (such as a Polearm Master wielder), then Parry would not be a good choice because it creates "reaction competition".

Note that if you're not sure, I'd suggest Evasive footwork because it does not eat your reaction for opportunity attacks and gives you greater freedom to position in harmony with your friends. But it's really my personal taste talking both will be very useful to you eitherway. :)

[Master O'Laughs]

Good choices. :)
Between Parry and Evasive, I'd say it depends on your objectives and playstyle.

If you like to rush in lines without waiting for your melee friends, Evasive is the one to go.
If you fight side-to-side and plan on being one of the main targets for enemy attacks, Parry is the best choice.
If you plan on being aggressive and get opportunity attacks as often as possible (such as a Polearm Master wielder), then Parry would not be a good choice because it creates "reaction competition".

Note that if you're not sure, I'd suggest Evasive footwork because it does not eat your reaction for opportunity attacks and gives you greater freedom to position in harmony with your friends. But it's really my personal taste talking both will be very useful to you eitherway. :)

I plan on eventually using Hand crossbows up close, like a gunslinger. Due to that I won't have much use for my reaction it seems.

[Citan]

I plan on eventually using Hand crossbows up close, like a gunslinger. Due to that I won't have much use for my reaction it seems.

Indeed. Unless your DM houserules that you can make an opportunity attack with your hand xbow. I would allow it as a DM once you get the Crossbow Expert feat, maybe even without. After all, you take a huge risk of wasting reaction since you would attack at disadvantage so it's not like it would be OP. Even with the feat you're basically like any martial. I would just put a specific reach of 10 feet.
(Well, couldn't that be a custom feat or just fighting style now that I think about it?)

So, by RAW, Parry becomes a choice on par with Evasive or maybe even better (and very flavorful to parry a blade with a hand crossbow XD).

[RulesJD]

Indeed. Unless your DM houserules that you can make an opportunity attack with your hand xbow. I would allow it as a DM once you get the Crossbow Expert feat, maybe even without. After all, you take a huge risk of wasting reaction since you would attack at disadvantage so it's not like it would be OP. Even with the feat you're basically like any martial. I would just put a specific reach of 10 feet.
(Well, couldn't that be a custom feat or just fighting style now that I think about it?)

So, by RAW, Parry becomes a choice on par with Evasive or maybe even better (and very flavorful to parry a blade with a hand crossbow XD).

Note that Parry works extremely well with Sneak Attack, because it lets you trigger it on an off turn.

[Citan]

Note that Parry works extremely well with Sneak Attack, because it lets you trigger it on an off turn.

Considering that you only ever get one reaction per round, either you mixed up Parry with Riposte, or I really don't understand what you want to get at. :)

[RulesJD]

Considering that you only ever get one reaction per round, either you mixed up Parry with Riposte, or I really don't understand what you want to get at. :)

Nope, that's what I did. I'd recommend Riposte with the close in Xbow setup so you can plug away with SS.

[Citan]

Nope, that's what I did. I'd recommend Riposte with the close in Xbow setup so you can plug away with SS.
Except that Riposte expressly requires a melee weapon attack so it would require player to carry a weapon in its other hand which could in turn blocks reloading (IIRC the twitter/errata rulings even if you can ignore the loading property thanks to the feat you still need a free hand).

So probably bad choice for a Fighter planning to shoot bolts in the face at close range. :)

[Sir Pippin Boyd]

I plan on eventually using Hand crossbows up close, like a gunslinger. Due to that I won't have much use for my reaction it seems.

There is no benefit to dual-wielding hand crossbows. Crossbow expert says "You ignore the loading quality of crossbows with which you are proficient" and "When you use the Attack action and attack with a one-handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a loaded hand crossbow you are holding". A hand crossbow is the one-handed weapon you use the attack action with, and the same hand crossbow is the loaded hand crossbow that you fire with your bonus action. This keeps your other hand open, enabling you the choice of a melee finesse weapon for reaction attacks or a shield for the +2 AC.

The correct choice here depends on where you plan to be standing. If you want to be far from the fight, you can find a source of Cover to stack with a shield for an incredibly high ac stationary ranged attacker. If you want to be close to the fight, you can go with a melee finesse weapon to get those melee reaction attacks. Of course, there is nothing to stop you from carrying both a shield and a 1 handed melee finesse weapon, then varying which you equip based on what kind of encounter you're in.

[Master O'Laughs]

I think it may have been the sage advice column but this question about the hand crossbow and crossbow expert feat came up and while you do not need a minor action to load the crossbow it still has the ammunition tag which requires a free hand to load it.

If I am wrong please tell me where it says otherwise because I would love to have to have a shield at the same time as the cross bow without find some kind of magic item or creating a mechanical one.

[JackPhoenix]

I think it may have been the sage advice column but this question about the hand crossbow and crossbow expert feat came up and while you do not need a minor action to load the crossbow it still has the ammunition tag which requires a free hand to load it.

If I am wrong please tell me where it says otherwise because I would love to have to have a shield at the same time as the cross bow without find some kind of magic item or creating a mechanical one.

You are not wrong. Another option I would propably allow would be smaller shield strapped to your forearm, leaving your hand with enough freedom of movement to reload crossbow or use some objects, but too heavy and restrictive to use it for TWF (AKA 3.5e's small shield)

[Master O'Laughs]

I think my first 3 will be precision, menacing, and distracting attack.

Menacing is obvious for its debuff, precision for accuracy and pairing it with sniper at lvl 4, and distracting to grant advantage.

The rogue and I have had a habit of doing side missions, just the 2 of us so it would help him getting sneak attack until I get crossbow expert at 6 or 8, also the cleric has the crazy 4d6 ranged spell attack which could crit.

At 7, I am thinking I may pick a defensive maneuver and then either Commanders, Trip Attack, or Pushing. Trip attack would be taken if we run into a lot of fliers with wings to knock prone, pushing if it seems there is alot of favorable terrain or ledges I can use, and commanders if either of the other 2 do not seem to work.