help me balance an orc in the party

[King of Nowhere]

I am starting a new campaign and I have a conundrum because a player wanted to play with an orc.
Orc stats are +4 to STR, -2 to int, wis and cha. So, as an orc barbarian he's incredibly strong at low levels. Much stronger than anyone else in the party. But on the other hand, he's not so strong that I should give him a level adjustment. He only has a +2 str compared to an half-orc, with the wisdom penalty hitting a barbarian's main weakness, the will saving throw.

Also keep in mind that
- the campaign starts at level 2, so spellcasters aren't broken
- all the players are amateurs with no knowledge of minmaxing and optimizing; in the hands of such players, fighter-types are stronger than spellcasters anyway, simply because they are easier to use effectively.
- the guy playing an orc is the only one with some knowledge of optimizing, so he's even stronger than his stats would let him be. In fact, he'll probably be the strongest in the party even if I slap him with a +1 level adjustment. But then, it's hardly fair to give him a level penalty because he's a better player than the others.
- it's a high magic world, and even high level equipment is easy to buy; just preventing him from finding good weapons is impossible.
- on the bright side, this is an amateur group out for a friendly game, so it doesn't matter if somebody overshines the others. As long as he doesn't overshines too much.

I can't think of any really satisfying solution to keep things fair. I considered using a half-level adjustment, but that would just alternate between being unfair in one way or in the other. Maybe some of you has some good idea I haven't considered?

[noob]

Give some extra stuff to the other players(like a +2 to con to the squishiest and so on).
It is not like he would be jealous and you can tell him it is for keeping the players in the same order of strength.
Then use encounters a little more challenging and everything is balanced.

[Inevitability]

There are two broad solutions to the problem of unbalanced PC's.

The first is weakening the overpowered PC, but no one likes to be nerfed. It'll also make the orc-player feel like you are blaming all of this on him, which can result in hurt feelings on both sides.

The second is strengthening the other PC's. You don't have to point them towards handbooks and have them make 20-level spreadsheet progressions, just point out some of the stronger options. "Hey, Web is a pretty cool spell, maybe prepare it and see what it's like?" can already be enough.


But honestly, don't worry too much. As long as the players have fun, party balance isn't that important. Play a few sessions, and adjust your DMing style to fit.

[Necroticplague]

Can we get some other details on his build? I find its easy to knock those overshadowing other downs peg by targeting their weaknesses. Since his will save is probably piss, standard low-level debuffs should hurt him badly. Color spray comes to mind. If he's in heavy armor, make use of characters that hit-and -run at range.

[Geddy2112]

Don't worry about doing anything to balance the orc. An orc barbarian has strengths, namely, a ton of strength.

But that negative to int means less skill ranks, probably no extra languages, and minuses to will means bad news for will saves(the worst to fail). A negative cha and no social class skills means he won't be the face either.

So he can hit stuff REALLY HARD, but what else can he do? Carry things? If your entire game is a contest of who can hit things the hardest, or pick up the most stuff, sure, the orc barbarian wins every time. The key is to design encounters to play to the strengths and weakness of your party. Let the orc hulk smash power attack rip apart some enemies, but add in something that flies, so the archer or person who can fly shines. Add puzzles, traps, social skills, enemies targeting will saves, hordes of weak enemies, and other things that the orc can't solo smash.

If you have open dungeon rooms with one big enemy, sure, the hulk can deal with it. Just reduce the amount of encounters where the barbarian is the best tool for the job. It lets everyone shine and won't punish the player.

[Immabozo]

You can always roll behind the screen and fudge the numbers occasionally to bring the same-ish level of danger to the powerful player. Or you could put a bounty on his head and give him story line difficulties the others dont face. "In the night, a theif stole your helmet, and now you see it up for auction at the local market. The guards are watching the proceedings and the current bid is 1/2 the value of the helmet." this also gives you an ability to control his wealth, while not flat out nerfing it, and thus control his gear, without flat out nerfing it.

It also brings up the possibility for combatants that are ONLY interested in the powerful player and once he goes down, if he does, they steal his body, or stuff and leave, also presenting possibilities for plot stuff. Make them want to talk him alive and knock him unconscious with non-lethal damage, that way, character death is not a problem.

You could also make plot hooks share a cell with him, or puzzles for him to manage self escape (be prepared for him to pee on EVERYTHING)or his captors reveal plot to him a la James Bond style.

[OldTrees1]

The above posts contain good general advice.


One other way to handle overshadowing that works in some situations is to give the overshadowing PC another job. If there was a flooding room trap, you would expect either the rogue(disarm trap) or the barbarian(break door) to work on creating an exit while the rest of the party dealt with the monsters. Not a complete solution since these opportunities don't happen every time. However if you lessen the overshadowing by a mix of targeting the Orc's weaknesses and removing them by their strengths, then they will be happier.

[Hiro Quester]

The composition of the rest of the party might also matter.

As long as he is the only one in the "hit stuff hard" role, then being good at that role an't necessarily a problem for in-party balance. The wizard will stay back and BFC/blast, the cleric will keep him buffed and alive, etc.

It's harder to balance a party with one Melee type with a stellar AC compared to the others (the monsters that are a challenge for him might hit hard enough to kill other PCs).

But a better damage output may not be that serious an issue, if the other players occupy other niches. One player being a bit better at his role than the other players are at their respective roles, might not be a huge problem.

However if you do have a "apples for apples" comparison, such as a ranger(archer) or a rogue, who also specialize in dealing damage and whose damage output will feel insignificant for a while, then improve the others. Give the archer a powerful magic bow earlier, or give the rogue magic daggers, etc.

And at higher levels the barbarian's damage output will begin to pale in comparison to the Wizard's and Cleric's abilities in a high-magic game like you describe. Let him have his fun for now. Others will outshine him later.

[Telonius]

incredibly strong at low levels

I think that's pretty much the start and end of the problem. Orcs are terrifying to low-level combatants. One solid hit with a Greatsword (-axe, or -club) will pulverize most squishy types. But after you get past the first couple of levels, their weaknesses really start showing up. Namely, terrible mental scores - meaning, usually, no casting at all, and a much harder time getting into some of the lockdown builds that require Combat Expertise (and its 13 Int prereq). Add on the general weakness of melee, and they stop being quite so scary fairly quickly.

Is this more of a one-shot campaign, or do you see it progressing beyond level 5 or so?

[King of Nowhere]

Ok, thanks for all the good advice. I was already planning on doing some of that stuff, but now I am more confident that I can make it work.



Is this more of a one-shot campaign, or do you see it progressing beyond level 5 or so?

I have no idea. We are all very good freinds or relatives, so we'll certainly still be in contact in, say, ten years. But we also have all fluid careers, so one may be called to work in another nation. I previously played up to level 6 with the same people, but then we had to interrupt because I moved for my phd.

I had the same balancing issues back then. I tried to fix it by giving him a level adjustment, but he still was the main killer in the party. the only other character with a close damage output was the sorceress, but she was very afraid to die and spent many fights running away or casting protection spells (high magic means a resurrection spell is easy to find, and I don't have to be afraid to kill a pc; but losing a level and 5000 gp still hurts, and the players know that they can die easily). On the other hand, he did nothing outside of combat, and my campaign included plenty of non-combat situations. However, he still managed to take the spotlight by doing something brash and hotheaded and putting himself into troubles - he died twice before reaching level 6, and another time he only managed to persuade a bunch of thugs he had attacked to spare his life thanks to a natural 20 in diplomacy (they still stole his stuff, and the party had to recover it).
But even when he put himself in trouble, he managed to get the most attention. I'm thinking now that he probably is the kind of player who tend to get attention anyway. we all have fun, so it's not too big a problem.

[Zancloufer]

The Orc race for a player is no way at all overpowered. If anything it's a slightly underpowered race. Compared to the Half-Orc they have +2 Str but -2 Wis, don't count as human for race restricted classes/items AND have Light Sensitivity. This means within the radius of the Daylight spell, or if they are outdoors on a sunny day they get -1 to hit and -1 search/spot.

Overall they are a -2 to stats and have Light Sensitivity vs some Darkvision and the possibility to have really high Str. IMHO +4 to a stat isn't unbalancing as it is. Especially with an overall negative to their array. Terrifying, they will deal 2d6+9 instead of 2d6+7 with their sword. Also Light Sensitivity means they won't actually have a better chance to hit outdoors than someone with 2 less strength . . .

[Inevitability]

The Orc race for a player is no way at all overpowered. If anything it's a slightly underpowered race. Compared to the Half-Orc they have +2 Str but -2 Wis, don't count as human for race restricted classes/items AND have Light Sensitivity. This means within the radius of the Daylight spell, or if they are outdoors on a sunny day they get -1 to hit and -1 search/spot.

Actually, orcs are definitely better than half-orcs. Half-Orcs don't count as human, they just count as orc, and the light sensitivity can be fixed by a 8 GP novelty.


OP, if I were you, I'd pray that player never discovers water orcs. :smalltongue:

[GreyBlack]

I am starting a new campaign and I have a conundrum because a player wanted to play with an orc.
Orc stats are +4 to STR, -2 to int, wis and cha. So, as an orc barbarian he's incredibly strong at low levels. Much stronger than anyone else in the party. But on the other hand, he's not so strong that I should give him a level adjustment. He only has a +2 str compared to an half-orc, with the wisdom penalty hitting a barbarian's main weakness, the will saving throw.

Also keep in mind that
- the campaign starts at level 2, so spellcasters aren't broken
- all the players are amateurs with no knowledge of minmaxing and optimizing; in the hands of such players, fighter-types are stronger than spellcasters anyway, simply because they are easier to use effectively.
- the guy playing an orc is the only one with some knowledge of optimizing, so he's even stronger than his stats would let him be. In fact, he'll probably be the strongest in the party even if I slap him with a +1 level adjustment. But then, it's hardly fair to give him a level penalty because he's a better player than the others.
- it's a high magic world, and even high level equipment is easy to buy; just preventing him from finding good weapons is impossible.
- on the bright side, this is an amateur group out for a friendly game, so it doesn't matter if somebody overshines the others. As long as he doesn't overshines too much.

I can't think of any really satisfying solution to keep things fair. I considered using a half-level adjustment, but that would just alternate between being unfair in one way or in the other. Maybe some of you has some good idea I haven't considered?

Orcs are sensitive to light. That's a huge disadvantage for him. Remember that.

[Tiri]

Orcs are sensitive to light. That's a huge disadvantage for him. Remember that.

The SRD says: A dazzled creature takes a -1 penalty on attack rolls, Search checks, and Spot checks.

Not exactly a 'huge disadvantage'. Especially when you remember that it only applies in bright sunlight or in the radius of a daylight spell.

[Darrin]

Orcs are sensitive to light. That's a huge disadvantage for him. Remember that.

Sundark goggles are only 10 GP (Races of the Dragon).

I don't really see that there's a problem here that needs to be fixed yet. Is he dominating all combat and making the other players feel irrelevant? No, you haven't even started playing yet. Is he bullying the other players by threatening to kill their PCs? No, you haven't even started playing yet. Is he getting the lion's share of the loot because "he can use it most effectively" (and the other players are too timid to disagree)? No, you haven't even started playing yet.

Once the game has gone on a few weeks, and it looks like 1) he's dominating every encounter *AND* 2) the other players aren't having much fun, then you can:


Throw them into a Political Intrigue plot.
Toss a few bestow curses in his direction.
Giant spiders have poison that does Str damage.
Drop some "wizard only" or "rogue only" items to bring the other PCs up to scratch.
Will saves. Charm person could take him out of a fight. Or go full-on Formian Taskmaster, dominate monster = TPK, everybody make new PCs.

[Warrnan]

Beef up the other pcs initiative score. Barbarians don't typically have tons of Dex or improved initiative.

There are items, traits, spells etc that can accomplish this.

This will ensure that the other PCs act first and can do something meaningful before a charging truck load of damage gets dumped on the enemy combatants.

[Zaq]

So he's got +2 STR over a normal half-orc. That's a +1 to hit (assuming he's not dazzled by Light Sensitivity) and either +1 or +2 to damage. Is that really going to break the game? Is an orc Barbarian attacking for (making up the numbers here) +9 to hit and 2d6 + 10 damage going to make the other players feel insignificant in a way that a half-orc Barbarian attacking for +8 to hit and 2d6 + 8 damage isn't? High-STR Barbarians are flashy and impressive at level 2, and whether he's rocking a racial +2 to STR or a racial +4 to STR isn't actually going to change whether he hits the hardest in the party. He's still going to be the damage king when he's raging (and possibly damage king even when not raging) just because that's how Barbarians work at level 2. (And, of course, that's about ALL that he can do, but that's nothing new.)

I mean, if you really think that a difference of +2 STR is going to be the make-or-break between "party-appropriate" and "OP to the point of not being fun," then just force him to play a half-orc instead of a full orc (but tell him that he can still call himself a full orc if he wants to, and don't have any NPCs challenge him on it—basically let him play an orc with half-orc stats). If reducing his STR by 2 would still have him be too strong for the party, then the problem isn't orc, the problem is Barbarian (or, more accurately, the problem is the fact that you're playing at level 2). But I'm highly skeptical that the difference between +2 STR and +4 STR is what's going to make him feel overpowered.

[GreyBlack]

Something else to keep in mind is that orc gives a +1 LA. Is he buying it off? Or else is he just going Barbarian 1 while everyone else enjoys Class 2?

[Deadline]

Something else to keep in mind is that orc gives a +1 LA. Is he buying it off? Or else is he just going Barbarian 1 while everyone else enjoys Class 2?

Orc doesn't have an LA. Were you thinking of Hobgoblin (which is a really crummy race for +1 LA)?

[GreyBlack]

Orc doesn't have an LA. Were you thinking of Hobgoblin (which is a really crummy race for +1 LA)?

Well played... ignore me.

[tsj]

His total stat mods should not be less than others also keep in mind that melee types are underpowered as it is

Give him +4 str and -2 wis (total +2) and LA +0

Give the others +2 to various other stats

Yes he will be a strong barbarian but the other
Charecters will still be balanced just fine


OR

Use some of the many many other full blood orc races out there such as the warcraft orc

Or search this forum for orc related stuff

[Immabozo]

You really should try balancing your party with an Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale. IIRC, +16 str, +8 con, + 4 dex + 4 int, + 6 wis, + 4 cha, size large, + 9 NA, +0 LA, +2 or 3 RHD, no water dependency, but can breath in water, I think I am forgetting something beneficial, too.

[Immabozo]

His total stat mods should not be less than others also keep in mind that melee types are underpowered as it is

Give him +4 str and -2 wis (total +2) and LA +0

Give the others +2 to various other stats

Yes he will be a strong barbarian but the other
Charecters will still be balanced just fine


OR

Use some of the many many other full blood orc races out there such as the warcraft orc

Or search this forum for orc related stuff

I think you should not try arbitrary balances without testing. +2 to a stat VS a feat for human? usually the feat wins.

[TheCrowing1432]

If it aint broke, dont fix it.

The Orc barbarian has high strength, so what?

All he can do is hit things hard. Put encounters where hitting things hard is less effective. Put in flying enemies, magic users, archers, creatures with damage reduction.

Put in traps that only the rogue can deal with. Put in social situations only the charisma guy can deal with.

[Strigon]

This guy has put all his eggs into one basket; he's put everything into being able to bash in the brains of whatever comes his way. He should absolutely be the best at that - if you make the other characters able to compete with him, it won't level the playing field - he'll just be average at one thing, and awful at everything else.
Rather, make sure that the other players have something to do while he's killing everything. Perhaps design a couple of encounters where you need to fend off creatures while solving a puzzle, or something to that effect. Maybe throw in a heavy bruiser, but have it supplemented by a small team of archers.

The guy wants to be a raging monster, so let him be one. The best way to keep everyone happy isn't to play to his weaknesses - thus shutting down his character - but to make use of his limitations. Make sure you can only solve part of any given problem with this character. Okay, you've killed the mummy, but the dungeon is still full of traps/collapsing/flooding and an orc barbarian can't help much with that.

This isn't to say you can't target his weak points, but you must be very careful when doing so, and use them sparingly. Martial classes are easy to make completely useless, and that's not what you want.

[ZxxZ]

Throw the party a boss fight vs a party of similar build as npc's. Have the NPC party be weaker statwise, but with good strategy. A buff master cleric with Enlarge Person and a fighter with a guisarme makes light work of even an orc when you combine things like Knockdown and Improved Trip. However, the rogue should be able to make his Tumble checks, and the casters can act at range. Then tell the Barbarian about a pile of nearby rocks that he might be able to throw at the cleric. Its only one encounter, but giving everyone a combat where "Run at the dude an clobber him" isn't what's needed. Rough terrain work stop if he's fond of charging

[King of Nowhere]

Throw the party a boss fight vs a party of similar build as npc's. Have the NPC party be weaker statwise, but with good strategy.

I did exactly that in my old campaign with the same group. They were 6 level 3 guys and I had them ambushed by 4 level 2 who cast a spiderweb on them and started pelting them with arrows. Good thing the cleric had some mist spell prepared. Still, the orc barbarian decided the fight once he could get free from the web and in melee range with someone.
Another time, when the party was level 2, I put them against a level 3 druid halfling. She had virtually no damage - too low level for the good damaging spells, and she attacked with a sling and a str of 6 - but she had ludicrous hide and move silently checks, and so she used hit-and-run tactics to whittle down the party one hp at a time, running through dense underbrush thanks to her druid skill of not being slowed by such obstacles. I don't remember how they got out of that one, but it certainly wasn't by bashing things.

[Strigon]

Another time, when the party was level 2, I put them against a level 3 druid halfling. She had virtually no damage - too low level for the good damaging spells, and she attacked with a sling and a str of 6 - but she had ludicrous hide and move silently checks, and so she used hit-and-run tactics to whittle down the party one hp at a time, running through dense underbrush thanks to her druid skill of not being slowed by such obstacles. I don't remember how they got out of that one, but it certainly wasn't by bashing things.

Knowing PCs? I'd bet by burning the whole forest down.

[tsj]

I think you should not try arbitrary balances without testing. +2 to a stat VS a feat for human? usually the feat wins.

the human player and other races would still get their regular bonus such as bonus feat etc...

that suggestion was merely to indicate that he could do this if he really really wanted to give all players +2 to something

that being said, I think the standard orc and half-orc races are waaay to underpowered compared to other orc races or other
regular races such a human or an elf

the human race is much much better than both the half-orc and orc races... mainly because of the bonus feat but also because favored class any... and the extra skill point doesn't hurt either

maybe the "orc" player will be better off to just use the human race statistics but call it an outsider orc or something?

he can still get strength 18 (if using 36 point buying for example)

personally I would let him play the orc race from warcraft d20, that race has some cool things as well as
the same amount of bonus and penalties and has
rage 1/day so a barbarian with this race can rage one extra time each day.

another option is this orc race:
http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Orc_%283.5e_Race%29

that race has rage and +2 str but nothing beyond that...



so is +2 str and rage 1/day (as 1st level barbarian) really any better than a
human that gets a friggin BONUS feat at first level, as well as BONUS skill point and NO XP PENALTY for multiclassing?

I think not... the human race is actually STILL better, this just goes to show just HOW WEAK the standard orc and half-orc races really are!



another options is this half-orc race:
http://shadowd20.pbworks.com/w/page/7520704/DnDRace-HalfOrc

or this orc race:
http://www.ravenoaks.org/oblivion/races.htm



you should most definetly NOT be nerfing races that are already nerfed like the standard orc and half-orc races...

[Aspiration]

Frankly, the high Strength mod doesn't make for imbalance, imo. Yeah, it gives him a good chance to be the party's best smasher. He can't do much else. Don't go out of your way to make every encounter disproportionately pick on him, just have a variety of things and other players will get plenty of chances to shine as well as him.


You can always roll behind the screen and fudge the numbers occasionally to bring the same-ish level of danger to the powerful player. Or you could put a bounty on his head and give him story line difficulties the others dont face. "In the night, a theif stole your helmet, and now you see it up for auction at the local market. The guards are watching the proceedings and the current bid is 1/2 the value of the helmet." this also gives you an ability to control his wealth, while not flat out nerfing it, and thus control his gear, without flat out nerfing it.

It also brings up the possibility for combatants that are ONLY interested in the powerful player and once he goes down, if he does, they steal his body, or stuff and leave, also presenting possibilities for plot stuff. Make them want to talk him alive and knock him unconscious with non-lethal damage, that way, character death is not a problem.

You could also make plot hooks share a cell with him, or puzzles for him to manage self escape (be prepared for him to pee on EVERYTHING)or his captors reveal plot to him a la James Bond style.

Don't do these things. Just don't. Fudging numbers against a particular player is really lame, and at that point is just "if you play this character, I'm going to punish you for it with no warning."

Also, enemies being focused on a particular character to that extent is pretty near the opposite of what you want.. Being Garf the Skullcrusher with a bounty on his head and everybody out to get him with no regard for anyone else, because he's just that strong and scary... is not a punishment. That's giving him the spotlight.


If you're really not comfortable with the +4 Str mod, I'd echo the suggestions of either using homebrew/third party stats, or just make him mechanically a half-orc/other race you like better.