Elven Cavalry: What abilities should the commander of an elite patrol have?

[doc225]

I've created a small elite patrol of high elven cavalry. These are above and beyond the typical cav unit of the elven army. They will have scimitars and short bows, with studded leather armor, mounted on riding horses. (I chose riding horses over warhorses for thematic reasons, as I didn't see elves tramping through their lands on heavy horses. I chose short bows as I personally think firing longbows from horseback is a ridiculous concept... but i could be wrong.. it also keeps all of their weapon damage the same) I set them at 6 HD, +3 proficiency bonus, for attack bonus of +6 with their scimitars and bows, and 1d6+3 damage. I have them able to use their mount's attack or their own on their action, with a second attack of their own, as a beast master ranger would. I'm also granting the proficiency bonus of the elf to the horse for its attacks and ac, as the beast master would.


What abilities should the commander of this elite patrol have? I'm thinking something that grants either advantage, or something that grants healing or a bonus to saves for his unit. Maybe something that grants an extra action to an ally? I'm just kinda lost at this point. I was probably going to go with 9HD for the commander, with the increase in proficiency like a 9th level ranger, and the 7th level 'exceptional training' feature. It doesn't seem like enough... it doesn't make him a leader, just a 'more progressed' version...

I'm honestly hoping the party DOESN"T fight these guys, but you never know with players. (If they do decide to fight they will not be killed and will be taken alive. No death saves will be rolled)

They're more to set the idea that elves in my world are complete BA... All the party started as human for setting reasons, and have encountered halflings, goblins, and gnolls to this point. They've found evidence of Dwarven civilization, but have not encountered them. The elves are in a position of power in the world, and they know it. They have control of a large portion of the central continent. the high elves are not the typical 'hide away in the forest' type.. those would be the wood elves. These High elves have a great city, and a large army of cavalry and infantry. The city is easily a few hundred thousand large, with a standing army in the low thousands, with at least 500 cavalry units. another 3k militia can be pulled from the commoners, but this is rarely (if ever) needed. The standard infantry unit will use the 'Guard' stats from the MM, adjusted for elf. The infantry sergeants will use the 'Veteran' stats (again adjusted for elf). There will also be small groups of scouts. The elves are a military force in this world. Their army alone is larger than the human settlement the human party calls home.

So that's my dilemma. How do I make the commander of this patrol unit FEELs like a commander, other than just roleplaying it that way?

[Georlik]

Shining Breastplate and Inspiring Leadership Ability maybe? More akin to a paladin.
http://www.alleycatscratch.com/lotr/Exhibit/Travel/Lyric/elf_armor_front_top_fg.jpg

[doc225]

Maybe call it 'Elven breastplate' and allow it to use up to +3 of dex... it is ONLY granted to commanders of the elven cavalry... no players can get it short of killing someone and taking it from them... which isn't going to happen any time soon. It basically just replicates the 'medium armor master' feat.


I could do that.

I thought about having him grant advantage on an ally's attack roll if he forgoes his second attack... SO he's directing his unit rather than doing all the damage himself...

[Gorthano]

What abilities should the commander of this elite patrol have? I'm thinking something that grants either advantage, or something that grants healing or a bonus to saves for his unit. Maybe something that grants an extra action to an ally? I'm just kinda lost at this point. I was probably going to go with 9HD for the commander, 19Hd for the commander, with the increase in proficiency like a 9th level ranger, and the 7th level 'exceptional training' feature. It doesn't seem like enough... it doesn't make him a leader, just a 'more progressed' version...



Give them the Knight's power to bless all allies within within 30 feet without concentration or the Orc Chieftain's battle cry.

[gfishfunk]

I like movement control powers for military leadership.
- Something like, expend an action, all his minions within 30' can move 10' to end adjacent to each other without provoking an attack of opportunity.
- Alternatively, called target: lets two of his subordinates attack a single target as a use of their reactions.

[VoxRationis]

You should give them mounted archery bonuses: maybe an ability that adds damage when shooting forward in a charge, or perhaps an ability to move the horse away from opponents as a reaction (so people can't use the turn system to catch up artificially).

[Flashy]

Give them the Knight's power to bless all allies within within 30 feet without concentration or the Orc Chieftain's battle cry.

Seconding the Knight ability, it's a great feature. TBH a straight refluffed knight works pretty well for this in general, depending on intended level.


I set them at 6 HD, +3 proficiency bonus, for attack bonus of +6 with their scimitars and bows, and 1d6+3 damage.

What abilities should the commander of this elite patrol have? I'm thinking something that grants either advantage, or something that grants healing or a bonus to saves for his unit. Maybe something that grants an extra action to an ally? I'm just kinda lost at this point. I was probably going to go with 9HD for the commander, 19Hd for the commander, with the increase in proficiency like a 9th level ranger, and the 7th level 'exceptional training' feature. It doesn't seem like enough... it doesn't make him a leader, just a 'more progressed' version...

I would seriously encourage you to look at the creature design guide starting on page 273 of the DMG. There's a helpful series of tables that walk you through the math of creating a creature, and assigning it a CR. NPCs use pretty substantially different math than PCs in 5e. Among other things, HD is a basically meaningless concept this time around, and a single attack dealing 1d6+3 damage is correct for CR 1/4 or so, which doesn't seem to be what you want.

[doc225]

Thanks, I may just have to do that when I have more time. I want t commander to stand out, but I don't necessarily need him to do a bunch of damage. Their strength is in their organization, mobility, and ability to bring multiple attacks quickly on the enemy... but I will definitely look through it.

[brainface]

From your elven lore honestly I want to say something like enchanterlike abilities. Command for halt, suggestion to stop and lay down their arms, etc.

[eastmabl]

Any reason why scimitars instead of shortswords? If you're using stock high elves, I would think that the weapons from elf weapon training (shortbow, longbow, shortsword, longsword) would be found in the hands of the elven cavalry.

For the high elven cavalry commander, I would recommend that you give him abilities akin to the battlemaster/warlord of earlier editions. For example:

As a bonus action, he can order an ally within 30 feet to (1) re-roll a saving throw or (2) move up to half his mount's speed.

As a reaction, he can order an ally within 30 feet to (1) attack again after a missed attack or (2) disengage as a free action.

Something where he makes his guys better - like a good leader should do.

[doc225]

[QUOTE=Flashy;20515029and a single attack dealing 1d6+3 damage is correct for CR 1/4 or so, which doesn't seem to be what you want.[/QUOTE]

2 attacks of 1d6+3 comes to average 13 damage a round, putting it in the CR1 range, which is fine for the regular cavalry. If they use the mount's hooves (2d4+3: avg 8) and then their 1 scimitar (6) they hit 14, still in range of a CR1 for damage output. The AC of the regular cavalry would be 17, well above the AC suggested for CR1, which I'm correcting for by dropping the hit points down to in the 50s instead of up in the 70s-80s... The attack should then be about +5, maybe +6, and the damage fits just fine for that. Even the ranged damage stays the same at the same bonus, so I'm ok there. Come to think of it.. I think I'm taking away the shields. that would put them at 15...

The commander does need something more, I agree. I want it to come from experience and/or commander ability, not necessarily from hitting harder himself. I'd rather not go all the way to CR5 to get the proficiency boost, but his AC is going to be over par, with the special breastplate and a dex+3.. that's 17...Maybe the idea that he can trigger ally attacks or grant them advantage.. I like Battle Cry (Orc Warchief) seems fitting on a mounted unit who would all be in a semi synchronized attack, granting advantage to every member of is command for the first round of combat or a later round if needed is a serious thing... plus he still gets one attack himself.

Does this all seem to crunch out or am I missing something?

[Drackolus]

This is totally useless but I feel inclined to pipe in - make 'em ride elks. High elves are still elves.

[doc225]

Any reason why scimitars instead of shortswords? If you're using stock high elves, I would think that the weapons from elf weapon training (shortbow, longbow, shortsword, longsword) would be found in the hands of the elven cavalry.

For the high elven cavalry commander, I would recommend that you give him abilities akin to the battlemaster/warlord of earlier editions. For example:

As a bonus action, he can order an ally within 30 feet to (1) re-roll a saving throw or (2) move up to half his mount's speed.

As a reaction, he can order an ally within 30 feet to (1) attack again after a missed attack or (2) disengage as a free action.

Something where he makes his guys better - like a good leader should do.

I chose scimitars for a couple of reasons: longswords aren't finesse weapons, and shortswords seem ridiculous from the back of a horse. Scimitars do the same damage as shortswords, deal slashing (which seems to work better in my mind than piercing on a light weapon for a mounted character) and just seem more elf-like to me. The weapons chosen for 'elf weapon training' always perplexed me, as i would think a race known for their grace and high dex would use finesse weapons. shortsword is ok, but rapier and scimitar seem to work better per the rules. I dunno... just me.

[doc225]

This is totally useless but I feel inclined to pipe in - make 'em ride elks. High elves are still elves.

believe me I considered it, and in a standard world, they probably would. In mine, the races have all been tainted by the seven deadly sins, and Pride is the sin that has taken grip on the high elves. The animal most associated with the sin of pride, historically, is the horse. As soon as I read that the image of elven cavalry and horse archers popped into my head and seemed so awesome! Like Dothrak, Rohirim, mongolian, all rolled into one... They're the only race that even has horses in my world, actually.

[Drackolus]

Ooh, that sounds like a pretty cool setting!

[doc225]

Ooh, that sounds like a pretty cool setting!

Thanks! Once I flesh it out more I'm considering trying to have it published. I have 8 deities, with 2 domains each, and one of the rebelled against the others, talking 2 others into joining him and one remaining neutral. So it's 4-3-1 in the heavens, but on the groups it's way out of whack. The bad guy created 7 lesser deities/demons to wreak havoc, and each is based on one of the 7 sins. I'm still rounding it all out, but doing ok. I've had to change up some of the animals, but I overall it's doing well.

[Knaight]

Some possible abilities:

Pack Movement: In lieu of moving personally, the Elven Commander may move themselves and any allies within 30 feet 10 feet in the same direction.
Volley Fire: Allies of the Elven Commander may choose to contribute to Volley Fire instead of taking an action. On the Elven Commanders turn, the Elven Commander may decide to have all of them make a ranged attack with Advantage instead of attacking personally.

Giving them better skills can also help to some extent.

[doc225]

Some possible abilities:

Pack Movement: In lieu of moving personally, the Elven Commander may move themselves and any allies within 30 feet 10 feet in the same direction.
Volley Fire: Allies of the Elven Commander may choose to contribute to Volley Fire instead of taking an action. On the Elven Commanders turn, the Elven Commander may decide to have all of them make a ranged attack with Advantage instead of attacking personally.

Giving them better skills can also help to some extent.

Not sure on the pack movement one.. but the volley one seems awesome. Maybe it's just a regular volley, without advantage... that seems a bit OP. but if he's got 6 or more mounted archers, and they all loose at the same target, in addition to their regular attack, that's dangerous!

[KorvinStarmast]

For the leader, since he is a high elf, you could sneak an ability from an Archfey Warlock and have the Fey Presence ability. At your choice, it either works as a Frighten or a Charm effect, Wisdom Save, use a DC based on the leader's charisma bonus and proficiency, or just set one.

Those who don't save are either frightened or charmed, per the condition in the PHB.

Just an idea.

Make it a Once Per Day power.

[Ronnocius]

Similar to what others have suggested, but I'll pipe in with one of my own.

Inspire Competence: The elven commander can use an action or bonus action (his choice) to shout a battle cry. Any (up to 2) allies within 30 feet can get one of the following benefits (commander's choice): #1 They can move up to twice their mount's speed on their next turn or #2 They can get advantage on their next attack roll. This ability can be used 3 times, after which the commander must complete a long rest.

[Slipperychicken]

Common Sense: Elven commanders have been trained for decades in basic tactics. His men will not engage the players in melee unless necessary or advantageous, preferring to pepper them from a distance, and some will ready actions to shoot spellcasters right as they try to cast spells (forcing a concentration save, DC = 1/2 damage dealt or 10, whichever is higher. If the spellcaster fails this check, his concentration is broken and the spell fizzles). When this character sees his men being slaughtered by the players, without inflicting a single casualty on the players, he knows that it's time to cut his losses and pull back.

[Kane0]

The effects of a bless spell work well, not sure if thats already been suggested

[PoeticDwarf]

Already enough sugestions for the commander, but I think 6d8+0/6/12 is a bit much for some small patrol guys. I'd go for scout HP or closer to that

[Drackolus]

...some will ready actions to shoot spellcasters right as they try to cast spells (forcing a concentration save, DC = 1/2 damage dealt or 10, whichever is higher. If the spellcaster fails this check, his concentration is broken and the spell fizzles)...

The concentration during casting times only applies to spells with a casting time longer than "a single action or reaction." Hitting them with an arrow wouldn't force them to make a concentration check, even if you used a reaction, because there's no vulnerable window of time to be hit. Even mage slayer just gives you free damage, but it won't interrupt that spell (though it might make them lose concentration on another spell.)

Which, now that I read it, means you can't cast spells longer than one action or reaction without losing concentration because you still can only concentrate on one spell, at least as raw. Which doesn't matter pretty much ever and I would personally not rules lawyer the players like that.

[djreynolds]

Have some nets and tridents. Little battlemaster for commanding strike, trip or push with your mount. Riposte but when mounted if they attack the horse and miss he gets a free shot, or if they attack him and miss the horse could get a free kick in.

But definitely nets and tridents, for "those dam dirty apes"

Spread it out, have some guys grab the UA archetype cavalier.

[Dimcair]

The effects of a bless spell work well, not sure if thats already been suggested

Indeed. 1d4 for all his men? Should be good enough. A commanding strike feature on top of that and done. Kind of like a warlord style character.
Then for non-concentration spells use some restraining spells if there are any that do not use concentration?

Another idea is to have him cast sanctuary on himself and try to talk to the PCs with authority once combat has started. (Or cast Web first, have his men back off (the PCs prolly can't outrun horses). That is if the setting allows for the elves to have values of responsibility and minimal violence necessary from their position of power. Think of it as British Police vs. US Police making an arrest and it goes violent. One of the groups will take a hit or two, try to convince the person to give up and use non-lethal means first. The other group may shoot immediately (because they either don't care or had bad experiences in the past).

[Kurt Kurageous]

What abilities should the commander of this elite patrol have? How do I make the commanders of the patrol units FEEL like commanders, other than just roleplaying it that way?

I wrote an archetype called commander which includes high elf cohorts and a path to cavalry or any other elite specialization. Feel free to loot the body or PEACH.

But really the knight refluff works, too.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzHVsiBMMb98Qkh1dklrT1BQMXc/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzHVsiBMMb98MHRwbTNDM0xVMkE/view?usp=sharing

[Final Hyena]

Given that they lack lances these are clearly not a unit for large scale warfare but a more of a peacetime force. A unit like that is likely to be more experienced against less disciplined foes. When it comes to combat, less disciplined foes are a problem from medieval warfare due to the route, which is a nasty domino affect the moment one person starts to think they will likely die. To best utilize this fact I would expect them to specialize in two strategies, the first is constant barrage of arrows with speed to avoid retaliation to whittle the enemy down from a safe distance destroying morale. So the bonus I would expect is something along the lines of;
All allied mounts within x ft gain 10 movement speed, in addition any turn they move(or maybe dash) they and their rider gain +1 AC until the start of their next turn.

The second strategy is simply a charge, ever looked out across a plain and seen a horde of armoured mounted men waving swords charging at you? The horses are capable of trampling you let alone the damn men on top. if this is combined with the previous strategy many a men would be ****ting themselves. This strategy might warrant a bonus along the lines of;
All allies within x ft gain +2 to attack and damage if they have moved at least 50 ft in a straight line that turn (If they didn't attack last turn you may subtract the amount they moved from the 50 ft requirement).

[Slipperychicken]

The concentration during casting times only applies to spells with a casting time longer than "a single action or reaction." Hitting them with an arrow wouldn't force them to make a concentration check, even if you used a reaction, because there's no vulnerable window of time to be hit. Even mage slayer just gives you free damage, but it won't interrupt that spell (though it might make them lose concentration on another spell.)

As a monster ability, it supersedes that rule. After all, if any old elf could do it, then why bother with all those years of officer school?


But it's the kind of thing I'd allow to work anyway. If being shot while casting a spell isn't cause for a concentration check, I don't know what is.

[doc225]

Already enough sugestions for the commander, but I think 6d8+0/6/12 is a bit much for some small patrol guys. I'd go for scout HP or closer to that

The Idea with these guys is that even the typical 'scout' npcs of other races would avoid them if possible. These are somewhat elite units. capable of trouncing even larger groups of gnolls, orcs, hobgoblins, etc...

These guys are more equivalent to the Cult fanatics in terms of danger level. They have higher AC, and better attacks, but lack the spell casting. The horses really tip the tide.

Standard rank and file cavalry would likely have stats similar to the scout like you mention.. these busy aren't that. These are lie the special forces of the cavalry.

Infantry would use modified Guard stats, led by Veterans (modified for elf flavor of course). Regular Cav would be slightly better, with scout stats for the typical riders and knight (modified) for the commanders there...

This is a special patrol. I realize now that I totally left that part out of the original post. A group of scouts led by a modified knight all on horseback is relatively formidable. This unit is beyond that. It's what has tempted me to create the commander as a PC, but I don't think that's the best idea either.

I apologize for confusion.

[Ikitavi]

If elves learned cavalry tactics before the development of the stirrup, they may dismount for melee fights. My absolutely favoritest scene from the Fellowship of the Ring was the heavy armored elves and men in tight formation, STAYING in formation, and utterly butchering this massive orc army because they fought in tight formation with shields and discipline. And then Sauron comes out and breaks right through that wall of men and elves and steel.

So elves would either fight as horse archers or they would dismount, have someone hold the horses, or more elven-like, dismiss their mounts and whistle them up again with awesome Animal Handling whistles when they needed them again. They may have the attitude that dragging innocent animals into a fight against their will is cruel or against nature or something.

If they can do tight formation stuff, have some levels in Bard for Inspire Courage. And have Perform Sword Dance, or "fight in a swashbuckling impressive manner with snappy banter". It isn't enough to win, he has to Look Cool while doing it.

I think more important than the ABILITIES is the attitude of the commander. If they have abilities well beyond that of their patrol, are they training them? Are they of a much greater age, or purer bloodline perhaps? Are they a lead from behind, sacrifice the lesser elves sort of guy, or a conserve lives even if it means yielding territory, withdrawing from the battlefield sort of guy?

Can they use magic to help their forces disengage, and create traps to thwart pursuit?

Or do you want a tenacious tracker type, who can follow at a distance, perhaps stealthy and communicating with the following troops by animal messengers? Perhaps he is good as assessing foes, knowing which have to be closed with, which have to be ambushed, which sniped and harassed.

[Douche]

I like the ideas of giving him leadership abilities, like moving his allies or granting them attacks. Maybe give him the Bless spell or some other buffs too.

I just think that giving him extra feats or AC from some unique source (like that +3 dex breastplate from the beginning of the topic) isn't going to be evident to your players. Like, he has a high AC. You don't need to justify that with a piece of armor. Just say his AC is 20 or whatever... Stuff like "directing his allies" or buffing them though, will show your players he is important.