Vaarsuvius' gender; REVIVED!!!

[HoodedHero007]

There actually IS evidence for what vaarsuvius' gender, you just have to know where to look!

In On the Origin of PCs, when vaarsuvius is being interviewed by roy (and after V broke the table), V says (Aprox.) "Bah! You are only hiring me because I intimidated you intellectually! Causing your MASCULINE pride to need to establish dominance over me!" What does that sound like? A Feminist, specifically a female one.

​IN YO FACE, RICH BURLEW!

[Euclidodese]

I think it's a comment entirely befitting V's 'toweringly intellectually superior' character regardless of zer physical sex. Ze's insulting 'the dumb warrior's thoughtless, emotional responses.'

Sure, it is a bit of a female chauvinist thing to say, you are essentially making offensive, reductive assumptions about someone based on their gender and then using that to insult and undermine them... But in this case it's just a wizard picking on a dumb meat-shield, rather than a gender thing.

[SaintRidley]

Making a feminist critique of Roy's psychology in no way implies anything about V's gender. Back to the drawing board for you.

[PoeticDwarf]

Making a feminist critique of Roy's psychology in no way implies anything about V's gender. Back to the drawing board for you.

Indeed. That's no proof just a guess. It's like saying everyone who is in love with a tree is a tree, or with a corpse, talking about that kinda stuff

[Gift Jeraff]

V is actually a beta numale feminist cuck.

[Peelee]

There actually IS evidence for what vaarsuvius' gender, you just have to know where to look!

Yep. In, like, the first 5 strips. Pretty much anything after that is deliberately contradictory, vague, and ambiguous.

[Jasdoif]

Is that supposed to be a colon instead of a semicolon in the title? And if so, is "revived" a gender?

[littlebum2002]

What does that sound like? A Feminist, specifically a female one.


So men aren't allowed to comment on other men's overt masculinity? I'll make sure to remember that one, I didn't know it was a rule.

[Sylian]

I think V might be agender. They certainly don't seem to pay much attention to gender.

[Hamste]

Don't you just hate it when you make a comment about someone's masculinity and then you become female. After all only a female can comment on masculinity. Then you have to comment on someone's femininity to even things out but it always so weird.

[kiapet]

Although V's sex is in the air, I would argue that they are agender. They make numerous comments to the effect that they don't really understand gender, aren't familiar with gendered pronouns, ect, and actively avoids discussion of the subject. Of course, this is for the purposes of the joke, but it definitely comes across as V not really understanding what all this "gender" fuss is about in the first place.

[Cizak]

Ah, nuts. Now I have to tell my male feminist friends that we've become women. I can't believe none of us noticed.

Do female feminists who mention femininity become male? Because if so I should probably inform my female friends of that, too.

https://media.giphy.com/media/VTk1wX3HEzLNu/giphy.gif

[An Enemy Spy]

I like to believe that V thinks it is perfectly obvious what sex s/he is and is completely oblivious to the fact that nobody else can figure it out.

[ChillerInstinct]

I like to believe that V thinks it is perfectly obvious what sex s/he is and is completely oblivious to the fact that nobody else can figure it out.

Quite possible, but personally I'm inclined to think that the elves don't put any stock in the concept of gender at all. Inky and the kids referring to V as "Other Parent", the insistence of the use of the term "mate" (even the Ancient Black Dragon makes an exception to using pronouns when referring to Inky while threatening V), and even, when asked by someone believed to be a complete stranger (unlike, say, Belkar who desperately wanted to know), V admits that they might not be the most qualified to talk about gender traits (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0385.html)?

I'm inclined to believe that OOTS-elves are hermaphrodites, likely of the simultaneous variety rather than being one or the other at different stages of their life cycle. I feel like it would best explain all the little teases we've been given on the matter.

[ben-zayb]

Conversely, would that mean making a quip regarding someone's "femininity" magically (perhaps, retroactively too!) turns anyone into a male?

Oh! Oh! Can people flip flop into being male or female by simply saying those two magic words? I'm pretty sure that could come in handy!

[Hamste]

Quite possible, but personally I'm inclined to think that the elves don't put any stock in the concept of gender at all. Inky and the kids referring to V as "Other Parent", the insistence of the use of the term "mate" (even the Ancient Black Dragon makes an exception to using pronouns when referring to Inky while threatening V), and even, when asked by someone believed to be a complete stranger (unlike, say, Belkar who desperately wanted to know), V admits that they might not be the most qualified to talk about gender traits (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0385.html)?

I'm inclined to believe that OOTS-elves are hermaphrodites, likely of the simultaneous variety rather than being one or the other at different stages of their life cycle. I feel like it would best explain all the little teases we've been given on the matter.

If that is true why does Belkar not know what sex V is? Surely after all this time someone would explain it to him. I think he even brought it up to other people at one time or another though I have no source on that.

[Euclidodese]

Don't you just hate it when you make a comment about someone's masculinity and then you become female. After all only a female can comment on masculinity. Then you have to comment on someone's femininity to even things out but it always so weird.I assume what Hoodedhero meant was, you wouldn't expect a man to make a sexist 'typical man' comment, because he would just be insulting himself.

But in this case, V's just insulting 'human with sharp pointy stick.' Ze'd probably still have said it if Roy were female (if ze even noticed Roy was female) so long as Roy was still a warrior.

[ChillerInstinct]

If that is true why does Belkar not know what sex V is? Surely after all this time someone would explain it to him. I think he even brought it up to other people at one time or another though I have no source on that.

V loves trolling Belkar about it, to the point where wasting a spell slot (admittedly only a 2nd level slot, but whatever) just to keep him guessing was considered a viable use of resources. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html)

[Euclidodese]

I just assume that Elven society doesn't really have gender, and that one's underpants containing one thing or another is something which only really comes up in the bedroom, it's not something which is seen as an indicator of behaviour or outlook or whatever (why can't real life be like that!?)
Perhaps the physical differences between sexes is tiny but obvious to other elves, or perhaps sexuality isn't much of a thing either, people marry who they love and if they happen to be the right combo they conceive, and if not they adopt.

[Hamste]

V loves trolling Belkar about it, to the point where wasting a spell slot (admittedly only a 2nd level slot, but .whatever) just to keep him guessing was considered a viable use of resources. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html)

That is V though. If the entire race are simultaneous hermaphrodites then surely Belkar would either know or someone would tell him. It is not like that could be a well hidden fact. If an entire race were hermaphrodites it would be impossible to keep it secret even if for some reason they cared to. Half-elves speak to at least some humans knowing, surely at least some elves are comfortable enough to have told others or in the grimmest scenario someone would notice after a fight that literally all the elf corpses were hermaphrodites when checking the bodies for loot.

It is possible V is a hermaphrodite but it is unlikely all elves are hermaphrodites.

[Quild]

It is possible V is a hermaphrodite

V filled an application form for Roy in Origin of PCs. S/he filled the "Gender" slot but Roy couldn't read because of an ink stain made right after.
Roy asks about what was actually written, but at this point, V seems oblivious to the fact that hir gender isn't an easy guess and answers that surely, he can fill that himself.

Also, Z's gender was clearly defined as male. He's not the same kind of elf race, but still...

[Vinyadan]

I wonder if Lirian is a Sun Elf or somesuch: her sex is also well-defined.

[hroþila]

V filled an application form for Roy in Origin of PCs. S/he filled the "Gender" slot but Roy couldn't read because of an ink stain made right after.
Roy asks about what was actually written, but at this point, V seems oblivious to the fact that hir gender isn't an easy guess and answers that surely, he can fill that himself.

Also, Z's gender was clearly defined as male. He's not the same kind of elf race, but still...
My guess is that Elves have a non-binary gender system with some overlapping but no real correspondence with the Human one. At that point, V, possibly fresh out of elven lands, may have thought the equivalence would be easy to establish for a Human, but V knows better now, to the point that they feel the Human concept of gender is unfathomable.

I also think this will never be explored, because doing so would make V's queerness either just a joke or some vacuous worldbuilding with no application to the real world.

[Cizak]

I wonder if Lirian is a Sun Elf or somesuch: her sex is also well-defined.

Is it? Her gender seems to be, with her using female pronouns and such, but do we actually know her downstairs anatomy? The elves in general don't seem to have the same body types as humans. It's not impossible that she just has an unusually large grown breasts without it relating to her downstairs.

[Dracon1us]

c'mon guys: he's clearly gay.

[HoodedHero007]

Is that supposed to be a colon instead of a semicolon in the title? And if so, is "revived" a gender?
"Revived" as in there was a thread for this, but then it was archived, and
MAKING YOU THINK MORE ABOUT THIS TOPIC WAS MY MASTER PLAN ALL ALONG!
MWA-HA-HA-HA-HAAAAAAA
​*coughs*

[Cizak]

c'mon guys: he's clearly gay.

1) I assume you're refering to V.

2) You're discussing something different than the rest of the thread. Sexuality is not related to gender.

3) It's certainly possible, but it's not clear.

[HoodedHero007]

c'mon guys: he's clearly gay.
"Gay" is a sexual orientation, not a gender

[littlebum2002]

I may be mistaken, but I don't believe I have seen a thread on V's gender that didn't include at least one offensive stereotype (like "only women can criticize someone's masculinity". In older threads it was much worse, i distinctively remember comments such as "V is very emotional in some arc, therefore V must be a woman" and "V usually uses V's intellect, so V must be a man"

[Aedilred]

Is it? Her gender seems to be, with her using female pronouns and such, but do we actually know her downstairs anatomy? The elves in general don't seem to have the same body types as humans. It's not impossible that she just has an unusually large grown breasts without it relating to her downstairs.

Well, we know she's in a(n apparently sexual) relationship with Dorukan, who is human and therefore doesn't share elf biology. That doesn't necessarily preclude what you suggest, as we don't have any independent verification of Dorukan's sexuality, but at this point by far the simplest explanation is that it's a straightforward heterosexual relationship and that she's female in every relevant respect. Given the available information, any other explanation is pretty much just convoluted for the sake of it.

[Bulldog Psion]

I agree with Aedilred.

Unless we get some additional information, the presented data seems to indicate that Lirian is a woman, Dorukan is a man, and they have a heterosexual relationship with each other.

Otherwise, we're running into the territory of "hmmm, we've never seen a depiction of Belkar's genitals, therefore perhaps he's actually a she."

There's no end to the epileptic trees if one refuses to accept most of the surface stuff as being the actual case, because this is a stick figure comic and we need to extrapolate the rest of the characters' nature from what's shown on the page, because they don't actually exist outside it.
---------------
(To put it another way: we don't know the downstairs anatomy of Lirian, but we also don't know what it is for any character, and can't know.

So either we say "anything goes" and every argument is simultaneously completely valid and completely invalid and all discussions are completely meaningless, or we use a sort of Occam's Razor until Proven Otherwise, whereby if, say, a character is drawn with breasts and other female traits, and is shown moments before an amorous encounter with a character drawn with a beard and a squared-off male-type body, we need to assume that the default is she's a heterosexual or bisexual woman until we get an in-comic indication that this isn't the case. IMO.)
--------------------
EDIT: as to V, my mostly subjective analysis is:

Sex: Male. (Squared-off body shape, eye positioning, the fact that the whole androgynous thing was probably a riff on the readership being unable to tell if a long-haired guy in robe was a woman.)

Gender: Agender.

Sexuality: Homosexual (Based on sex assumptions above, plus Kyrie's or whatever his name is body shape and eye position.)

[I think a lot of these threads end up confused because some people make clear distinctions between sex, gender, and sexuality, and others conflate several or all of them. Made even more chaotic by the fact that, unless I'm mistaken, some languages lack the ability to distinguish between the concepts, especially between sex and gender, so people who speak those languages and English as a second language are going to be struggling with a 'foreign' concept through no fault of their own.]

[littlebum2002]

(To put it another way: we don't know the downstairs anatomy of Lirian, but we also don't know what it is for any character, and can't know.

While your post is 100% on point, it does miss a pretty big mark, in that her (or Belkar's) downstairs anatomy really doesn't matter. She obviously identifies as a woman (as Belkar obviously identifies as male), so we should regard her as a woman (and Belkar a male,etc) regardless of what either of them have "downstairs"

(on another point):
V obviously does not self-identify as either gender, so we should treat V as agender. Trying to constantly guess V's gender is insulting to the many people who don't choose to be a member of either gender in the binary, and have to constantly deal with people whispering things behind their back like "Hey is that a dude or a chick?", etc.

[HoodedHero007]

I may be mistaken, but I don't believe I have seen a thread on V's gender that didn't include at least one offensive stereotype (like "only women can criticize someone's masculinity". In older threads it was much worse, i distinctively remember comments such as "V is very emotional in some arc, therefore V must be a woman" and "V usually uses V's intellect, so V must be a man"
This is what I meant: V probably assumed that Roy knew V's gender (due to V's occasional obliviousness, and then took this course of "logic": I scared a man with the notion that a woman is intelligent, he needed to establish dominance over me so he can feel confident in his masculinity.
Another piece of proof: in the hotel (the one with the whole "Roy pretending to be the King of nowhere debacle"), V shares a room with haley, and insists on doing it. While this is not proof in of itself, when V and haley where talking about the pearl/crystal ball thing, V refers to the male members of the party as "the boys" i.e. in 3rd person, as if v is not one herself, and also, is there any evidence for V being male?
I was not attempting to stereotype a bunch of walking stereotypes, sorry

[HoodedHero007]

V obviously does not self-identify as either gender, so we should treat V as agender. Trying to constantly guess V's gender is insulting to the many people who don't choose to be a member of either gender in the binary, and have to constantly deal with people whispering things behind their back like "Hey is that a dude or a chick?", etc.
I have not seen this, can you cite some strips?

[NerdyKris]

Haley says "the boys" in that comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html), not Vaarsuvius.

I'm not sure what strips you want cited for Vaarsuvius never identifying as a gender. It would be easier to list the ones where they do, which is "none".

[Cizak]

Well, we know she's in a(n apparently sexual) relationship with Dorukan, who is human and therefore doesn't share elf biology. That doesn't necessarily preclude what you suggest, as we don't have any independent verification of Dorukan's sexuality, but at this point by far the simplest explanation is that it's a straightforward heterosexual relationship and that she's female in every relevant respect. Given the available information, any other explanation is pretty much just convoluted for the sake of it.

I don't think a pansexual Dorukon who enjoys his partner's body sexually despite it not matching a human cis-female is very convoluted.

With that said; based on when the characters were designed and Rich's later statements (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411301-Interview-Questions-For-Rich/page3&p=19163226#post19163226) on these subjects, they were most probably designed as a traditinoal heterosexual couple.


Unless we get some additional information, the presented data seems to indicate that Lirian is a woman, Dorukan is a man, and they have a heterosexual relationship with each other.

Agreed, more based on Rich's statements than in-comic.


Otherwise, we're running into the territory of "hmmm, we've never seen a depiction of Belkar's genitals, therefore perhaps he's actually a she."

We know Belkar is a he because he identifies as such. Why does his anatomy matter, then?

With that said, based on Rich's Statements™ and the fact that Belkar often acts like a misogynistic dudebro, I do think he's cis-male.


There's no end to the epileptic trees if one refuses to accept most of the surface stuff as being the actual case, because this is a stick figure comic and we need to extrapolate the rest of the characters' nature from what's shown on the page, because they don't actually exist outside it.

"Surface stuff" is a very loose term, though. You can't always tell trans people from cis people on a glance.

With that said, Rich's statements, etc.


(To put it another way: we don't know the downstairs anatomy of Lirian, but we also don't know what it is for any character, and can't know.

We know Roy's.


So either we say "anything goes" and every argument is simultaneously completely valid and completely invalid and all discussions are completely meaningless,

That's pretty much how headcanons work. Now, whether or not headcanons are good or bad is a completely different discussion, but I don't believe they turn discussions meaningless.


or we use a sort of Occam's Razor until Proven Otherwise, whereby if, say, a character is drawn with breasts and other female traits, and is shown moments before an amorous encounter with a character drawn with a beard and a squared-off male-type body, we need to assume that the default is she's a heterosexual or bisexual woman until we get an in-comic indication that this isn't the case.

Again I agree, but more based on Rich's statements than in-comic.

[littlebum2002]

I have not seen this, can you cite some strips?

The fact that we have to dig through 1027 strips to find even a hint of V associating with either gender seems clear enough, doesn't it? If not, and you want a list of strips in which V is seen not associating with either gender, there is one here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots.html)

In my mind, if you have to wonder what gender someone is, then you probably shouldn't be wondering.

[HoodedHero007]

I'm not sure what strips you want cited for Vaarsuvius never identifying as a gender. It would be easier to list the ones where they do, which is "none".
Completely ignoring the pieces of evidence I have pointed out, and even though we do not SEE V actively identifying, I am going to use evidence that is used when Rich is not joking about V's gender, V's actions point towards, V being female, even if it is not actively stated

[NerdyKris]

I just said why your piece of evidence is not even correct. Vaarsuvius didn't make that statement. Given your "in yo face" and "I wanted you all to think this", I'm inclined to believe that you're not arguing honestly.

[littlebum2002]

Completely ignoring the pieces of evidence I have pointed out, and even though we do not SEE V actively identifying, I am going to use evidence that is used when Rich is not joking about V's gender, V's actions point towards, V being female, even if it is not actively stated

Which piece of evidence are you referring to, specifically?

The one in which V criticized someone else for being overtly masculine? I, as a cisgender heterosexual feminist male, have done this numerous times, so according to your logic I must actually be a female and not realize it since apparently only females are allowed to do this.

Or the piece of evidence in which you misattributed one of Haley's comments to V? Because as you can clearly see, Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html) made the comment about "the boys", not V.



The funniest part about your "evidence" actually isn't that your 2nd piece was 100% utterly wrong, it's that, biologically, men usually try to assert dominance over other men, not women as much. That's why the leader in groups is called the "alpha male", not because he is dominant over the females, but because he is dominate over the other males. So, if anything, your "evidence" could actually be used to make a pretty convincing argument that V is male, not female (although you'd still be wrong).

So you have one piece of "evidence" which is completely wrong, and another which is party right but used to make the wrong conclusion because of your preconceived stereotypes of how women are supposed to act.

[DaggerPen]

I'm honestly surprised that no one on the forums has yet brought up that the Giant literally referred to Vaarsuvius as genderqueer in the BRITF commentary.

[Aedilred]

I don't think a pansexual Dorukon who enjoys his partner's body sexually despite it not matching a human cis-female is very convoluted.


I think this is a reasonable occasion to call "horses not zebras" though. Or perhaps even "walks and quacks like a duck". We have a character who is identified exclusively with female pronouns who possesses female secondary sexual characteristics, and appears to conform to female gender norms in dress and other appearance, in a relationship with a male human. By far the most likely scenario is that she is "fully" female and they are in a heterosexual relationship, and in order to draw other conclusions we really have to superimpose outside assumptions or our own predispositions.

I think sometimes on this forum the (admirable) impulse to be as inclusive and tolerant as possible can lead to a disconnect from, if not reality, at least probability when assessing this sort of situation. By the most generous estimates, non-cis (including intersex) people seem to make up around 0.5% of the population on Earth, and non-hetero people around 10%. Even if in Stickverse these proportions are increased threefold, in a scenario where you have a relationship of this nature, a heterosexual relationship is still by far the most likely explanation.

Of course, there is room for ambiguity because there is precedent in the comic for (some) elves not appearing to have defined gender or sex in the same way as humans, but I'm not sure there's enough ambiguity to state confidently that it's not the case. In particular, the argument that "Lirian must be intersex or agender because all elves are" relies specifically on not accepting Lirian herself as disproof of this and instead attempting to fit her into the argument's preconceptions.

Mind, this isn't specifically a gender issue, although such debates seem to arouse more strong feelings than others on this forum for understandable reasons. This board has a noticeable tendency to nitpick absolutely everything in the comic and refuse to accept 99.99% probabilities as effective certainties in pretty much any situation, so this is no exception there.

[Bulldog Psion]

"Surface stuff" is a very loose term, though. You can't always tell trans people from cis people on a glance.

With that said, Rich's statements, etc.

Just to clarify, what I was trying to say is that the comic is all surface. There's no substance behind the characters beyond what's on the page: so we sort of have to, IMO, place more weight on superficial appearances in the comic than we do on people and phenomena in reality, simply because there's nothing else on which to build a firm foundation for discussion.

In other words, in reality, trans and cis people may be hard to tell apart at times. In a comic, boobs and a round butt pretty much mean "woman" unless proven otherwise, IMO, because there's no other evidence at all. Due to the paucity of evidence, what there is actually has to carry more weight than it would in reality because we can't check anywhere else.

We can't talk to Lirian, whereas in reality we can talk to someone and possibly discern, say, if they are cis or trans just by what they say about themselves. Or we may be able to talk to friends, or read a biography.

Just like we know that the Earth has no second moon that happens through some quirk to always be on the other side of the planet from our perspective because we can pick up a book or can actually telephone an astronomer over on the other side of the planet and ask them. In the case of OotS, we assume their planet has one moon because that's all that's been shown, even though we lack the tools of confirmation we have in the real world. Same thing with the gender/sex/sexuality: it's not unreasonable, IMO, to assume more from appearances than one can in reality, simply due to the limitations of the medium.

Sorry if I was unclear; and sorry if this was a bit long, I'm not trying to be confrontational, it's just that that small bit of my statement was actually my main point, so I wanted to clarify.

[HoodedHero007]

I just said why your piece of evidence is not even correct. Vaarsuvius didn't make that statement. Given your "in yo face" and "I wanted you all to think this", I'm inclined to believe that you're not arguing honestly.
That wasn't bloody obvious?
But the thing is, saying Highly controversial things causes people to argue, causing them to think more.
Rational thought is good, so arguing about pointless things (ironically) has a point.
To demonstrate a funny aspect of the brain, I ask you this: What is my nationality?

[NerdyKris]

No, arguing pointless things is trolling, as is saying controversial things just to get a reaction.

[Bulldog Psion]

To demonstrate a funny aspect of the brain, I ask you this: What is my nationality?

Uncertain. You used "bloody," which would peg you as British or Australian, or having learned the language from someone of these nationalities.

But it's trivially easy to insert that as a misdirection. You could be sitting 2 blocks from me here in the U.S. of A., or you could be a Russian with a good command of English, taught by an American-educated educator who knows English well enough to use "bloody" as a misdirection. Or a fungus from Yuggoth, for that matter. Etc.

[Albion]

I'm with the people who firsti of all think V's gender is ... that person's sake because that person happens to be an elf. Elves are soft on the subject.

[HoodedHero007]

I'm with the people who firsti of all think V's gender is ... that person's sake because that person happens to be an elf. Elves are soft on the subject.
?????

Also, cool fable reference

[Cizak]

I think this is a reasonable occasion to call "horses not zebras" though. Or perhaps even "walks and quacks like a duck". We have a character who is identified exclusively with female pronouns who possesses female secondary sexual characteristics, and appears to conform to female gender norms in dress and other appearance, in a relationship with a male human. By far the most likely scenario is that she is "fully" female and they are in a heterosexual relationship, and in order to draw other conclusions we really have to superimpose outside assumptions or our own predispositions.

I admit I do not understand you last sentence. Too many fancy words for me. But even if a heterosexual couple is the most likely scenario, what damage am I doing by thinking that there's a possibility the scenario is something else? Lirian happily conforming to all the female gender norms tells us nothing about her anatomy, only her gender identity. Her gender is female, that's what important. Dorukon identifies as a man. It's a relationship between a man and a woman. If I now like to think that this particular woman has the same downstair parts as her partner, or something else entirely, who am I hurting?

I didn't even think that when I joined this thread. But to heck with it, that's my headcanon now. Dorukan is pansexual and Lirian has a penis. That just made my evening a bit happier. Do the statistics allow for me to be happy tonight?

Also, should I just mentally replace that "fully" with "cis", or is there something else you're saying?


I think sometimes on this forum the (admirable) impulse to be as inclusive and tolerant as possible can lead to a disconnect from, if not reality, at least probability when assessing this sort of situation. By the most generous estimates, non-cis (including intersex) people seem to make up around 0.5% of the population on Earth, and non-hetero people around 10%. Even if in Stickverse these proportions are increased threefold, in a scenario where you have a relationship of this nature, a heterosexual relationship is still by far the most likely explanation.

"What's even worse is this idea of statistical verisimilitude that I keep seeing—where the numerical percentage of characters with certain traits must match the "likely" percentages in the real world, based on whatever filter the proponent chooses to determine what is likely. This argument is utter unadulterated garbage. It's garbage because stories are about protagonists and protagonists are usually unusual. There are only like 4 Force-wielders in a galaxy of trillions at the start of Star Wars, yet by the end of second movie they've all appeared as part of the narrative. Is anyone complaining that Star Wars breaks verisimilitude because such a small minority group is so over-represented? No, because it happens to be a story about those people who belong to that group. Likewise, if a story has a percentage of LGBTQ+ characters that is higher than the statistical occurrence of LGBTQ+ people in the real world, does that break verisimilitude? No, because it happens to be a story about those people who belong to that group."
- Rich Burlew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19026755&postcount=21)


Of course, there is room for ambiguity because there is precedent in the comic for (some) elves not appearing to have defined gender or sex in the same way as humans, but I'm not sure there's enough ambiguity to state confidently that it's not the case.

I think I've just been convinced there is.


In particular, the argument that "Lirian must be intersex or agender because all elves are" relies specifically on not accepting Lirian herself as disproof of this and instead attempting to fit her into the argument's preconceptions.

I never argued that she must be. I said it's not impossible that she is.


Just to clarify, what I was trying to say is that the comic is all surface. There's no substance behind the characters beyond what's on the page: so we sort of have to, IMO, place more weight on superficial appearances in the comic than we do on people and phenomena in reality, simply because there's nothing else on which to build a firm foundation for discussion.

Well, you do that, then. I don't want to judge fictional people based on appearance. I am sincerely afraid that me doing it in real life is not too far behind.


In other words, in reality, trans and cis people may be hard to tell apart at times. In a comic, boobs and a round butt pretty much mean "woman" unless proven otherwise, IMO, because there's no other evidence at all. Due to the paucity of evidence, what there is actually has to carry more weight than it would in reality because we can't check anywhere else.

Someone with the gender identity of "woman" is a woman whether she's cis or not.


Just like we know that the Earth has no second moon that happens through some quirk to always be on the other side of the planet from our perspective because we can pick up a book or can actually telephone an astronomer over on the other side of the planet and ask them. In the case of OotS, we assume their planet has one moon because that's all that's been shown, even though we lack the tools of confirmation we have in the real world. Same thing with the gender/sex/sexuality: it's not unreasonable, IMO, to assume more from appearances than one can in reality, simply due to the limitations of the medium.

We've been shown another sexuality than hetero exists. We've been told one character is genderqueer. With this information, I'm going to assume LGBTQIA+ identities are a thing in OotSverse too.

[Vinyadan]

Dorukon identifies as a man.

How do you know that?

[Cizak]

How do you know that?

I remembered him using male pronouns. Now I can't remember where. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Aedilred]

I admit I do not understand you last sentence. Too many fancy words for me. But even if a heterosexual couple is the most likely scenario, what damage am I doing by thinking that there's a possibility the scenario is something else? Lirian happily conforming to all the female gender norms tells us nothing about her anatomy, only her gender identity. Her gender is female, that's what important. Dorukon identifies as a man. It's a relationship between a man and a woman. If I now like to think that this particular woman has the same downstair parts as her partner, or something else entirely, who am I hurting?
What I meant was allowing our personal preferences to influence our conclusions more than the evidence supports.



I never argued that she must be. I said it's not impossible that she is.
I've never said it's impossible either. I just said it was much less likely. But the mere fact of having this assumption questioned seems to have caused you to double down and now claim that in fact this is the case in your version of events. Which strikes me as somewhat odd.



We've been shown another sexuality than hetero exists. We've been told one character is genderqueer. With this information, I'm going to assume LGBTQIA+ identities are a thing in OotSverse too.
Well of course they are. We've known that for an awfully long time, I think. Even discounting the grey area around V and the elves (i.e. without bothering to track in detail the progression of unintended to running joke to part of that character's identity) explicit instances of non-heterosexuality in Stickverse have been mentioned as long ago as the Cliffport arc, and possibly longer.

But the fact that such identities do exist in Stickverse doesn't mean that everyone has one, any more than it does in real life. And given the prevalence of apparently or overtly cishetero characters compared with LGBetc. ones (to the extent Rich wrote in an openly gay one to "redress" the balance to an extent) does strongly suggest that the majority of people in Stickverse are cishetero even if that proportion isn't the same as in reality (and which proportion is to a large extent unknown anyway).

Now, it doesn't hurt anyone for you to come to that conclusion, because this is a silly webcomic and this discussion is pretty trivial even in relation to that. But it's sloppy argumentation and critical thinking in general. Rather than looking at the evidence and drawing the most likely conclusion it's taking an unlikely but possible conclusion and twisting the evidence to fit. If applied more generally, that leads to some really faulty and, depending on context, dangerous conclusions.

Even in this sort of situation it's the sort of thing that gets entire houses of cards built on and leads to insane epileptic trees of fantheory like the nonsense that sometimes takes over the board. It's not really helpful. It doesn't matter, in isolation, what the deal with Lirian and Dorukan's sexuality is. But when we're trying to establish greater truths about the setting and that comes up as an example, it may matter. Specifically, when it comes up as evidence in a wider argument (in this instance, elven sexuality) we need to work out whether it's sufficient to disprove conclusions, whether it's an aberration, or whether it's part of the same general trend. This is where looking at it in probabilistic terms is helpful, because it lets us decide how much weight to ascribe to it. Yes, it's possible that it's part of the same general trend of genderqueer elves, but it's more likely, I think, that it's evidence that the previously assumed trend is wrong. Which means that any further theories built on that conclusion are also open to question.

In fact my assumption prior to reading this thread had been that all elves were like V and co, because I'd forgotten about Lirian. When reminded of her and when putting her into context, I was left with the choice of taking Lirian as likely disproof of my original assumption and accepting I'd been wrong and that things were more complicated than I'd thought, or come up with an unlikely explanation to fit Lirian into my original assumptions. We will likely never know which conclusion is the correct one, but I think the former is a preferable approach from a critical thinking perspective.

Apart from anything else, this sort of thing is actually dealt with all the time in reverse in gender issues: people assuming that everyone is cishetero, etc. and, when being presented with counterexamples, finding reasons to dismiss them, invalidate them or discredit them because they'd rather make improbable assumptions than adjust their underlying beliefs. On the one hand, it's kind of encouraging that on this forum there is sufficient awareness that that argument tends more often to be made the other way round than not, but as a process of critical thinking and argument it's not any better just because it's backed up with a greater awareness of social justice.




"What's even worse is this idea of statistical verisimilitude that I keep seeing—where the numerical percentage of characters with certain traits must match the "likely" percentages in the real world, based on whatever filter the proponent chooses to determine what is likely. This argument is utter unadulterated garbage. It's garbage because stories are about protagonists and protagonists are usually unusual. There are only like 4 Force-wielders in a galaxy of trillions at the start of Star Wars, yet by the end of second movie they've all appeared as part of the narrative. Is anyone complaining that Star Wars breaks verisimilitude because such a small minority group is so over-represented? No, because it happens to be a story about those people who belong to that group. Likewise, if a story has a percentage of LGBTQ+ characters that is higher than the statistical occurrence of LGBTQ+ people in the real world, does that break verisimilitude? No, because it happens to be a story about those people who belong to that group."
- Rich Burlew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19026755&postcount=21)
I think this is a slight misunderstanding/misappropriation of this quote, too. Rich is talking here about representation of minorities among characters and how the underlying statistical base of the population has relatively little bearing on it. This is a counterargument to a complaint along the lines of over-representation of minorities in the comic strip: say, that while in reality less than 1% of the population is genderqueer, in the comic more than 1% of characters are (including 17% of the protagonists!) and this is clearly over-representing minorities and totally unrealistic and verisimilitude-breaking.

That's not what we're talking about here. Nobody's suggesting that any given sexuality is more or less likely because of the number of LBGT+ characters already in the story relative to real-life numbers. If anything, this plays the other way round: if all other elves in the comic were presented as cishetero I doubt this would even have come up for discussion, because Lirian and Dorukan's relationship being heterosexual would be taken as read, in the way that Elan and Haley's is.

[Kantaki]

I remembered him using male pronouns. Now I can't remember where. Maybe I'm wrong.

Maybe not Dorukan himself, but Serini uses male pronouns for him and female pronouns for Lirian in her diary (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html)

Regarding V’s gender I'm going to quote Kosh: „Yes”.:smalltongue:

[ThinkMinty]

V is actually a beta numale feminist cuck.

I can't tell if you're joking, or a horrible person. So you did a good job, I guess.


Anyways, if I had to guess, V's biologically female. I'm not particularly emotionally invested in my guess, though. My guess is based on three things, which I don't think are stereotypical, but I did make some assumptions:


Sharing a room with Haley in inns, lodges, etc.
Qaar's guess that V is female. He spent several days observing V in isolation.
Belkar's attraction to V and "drunken New Year's makeout" expressions thereof. While Belkar indulges in a fair amount of Gay Bravado, as for confirmed sexual preferences he's attracted to physiologically ladies. On the Kinsey Scale, based on current evidence, he's somewhere between a Kinsey 0 and a Kinsey 3. Sexual attraction (in every variety, mind) has a chemical component to it, so Belkar is likely respondin' to some pheromones V is givin' off. While drunk, due to the in vino veritas thing, his amorous face-smoochin' is something he's more biologically than psychologically compelled to do. Now, V could be the closet key to Belkar learning new stuff about himself, that's entirely possible and plausible as a thing. However, the differences in how he treats Roy when Roy's male-bodied and when Roy's female-bodied kinda point me in the direction of physiologically female.


As for gender identity rather than sex, Word of Giant says genderqueer and the narrative supports that handily, so it's functionally true until disproven. There's nothing particularly wrong about guessing at it, and it's kind of fun not having a definitive answer.

[Bulldog Psion]

Okay, so let me try to break out of my perspective here for a moment.

From the perspective offered by Cizak, it's just as possible that Lirian is biologically male, identifies as female, and is sexually bisexual, and that Dorukan is a biologically female individual who identifies as agender, and is sexually homosexual, as it is that the two are a cishetero couple. (For example.)

I'm not quite sure at the moment if this is liberating or just utterly confusing to the point of making discourse on the topic futile. Or maybe both. I'll have to think about this one. :smallbiggrin:

[littlebum2002]

Guesses on V's gender

These are actually decent guesses, since they don't rely on outdated gender stereotypes of how women and men are supposed to act.

(FYI, another bad example would be "V must be female because a male wouldn't know what a doily is")


Okay, so let me try to break out of my perspective here for a moment.

From the perspective offered by Cizak, it's just as possible that Lirian is biologically male, identifies as female, and is sexually bisexual, and that Dorukan is a biologically female individual who identifies as agender, and is sexually homosexual, as it is that the two are a cishetero couple. (For example.)

I'm not quite sure at the moment if this is liberating or just utterly confusing to the point of making discourse on the topic futile. Or maybe both. I'll have to think about this one. :smallbiggrin:

I'm not sure if Cizak is saying it is "just as possible", only that it is "also possible". Assuming the LGBT population in OOTS-world is equal to ours, then any given person will have an over 50% chance of being cisgender and heterosexual, but you can't just assume everyone is because the majority are.

[Liquor Box]

These are actually decent guesses, since they don't rely on outdated gender stereotypes of how women and men are supposed to act.



Hi Littlebum.

It is perfectly valid to suggest that it is more likely that a character belongs to a certain gender because they conform to characteristics more usually present in that gender. When those characteristics are either positive of negative, it may not be politically correct to do so, but that does not make it logically invalid.

Of course that a character exhibits characteristics more usually displayed by one gender than the other is not conclusive. There are plenty of people who do not act in accordance with the norms of their gender, but the information still has some value for those only wanting to make a best guess.

For example, if there were a character and the only thing we knew about him/her was that he/she liked DnD, it would not be unreasonable to infer that the character was more likely to be male than female if you believed that a liking for DnD is more prevalent in males than in females.

[Liquor Box]

I can't tell if you're joking, or a horrible person. So you did a good job, I guess.


Anyways, if I had to guess, V's biologically female. I'm not particularly emotionally invested in my guess, though. My guess is based on three things, which I don't think are stereotypical, but I did make some assumptions:


Sharing a room with Haley in inn.
Qaar's guess that V is female. He spent several days observing V in isolation.
Belkar's attraction to V and "drunken New Year's makeout" expressions thereof. While Belkar indulges in a fair amount of Gay Bravado, as for confirmed sexual preferences he's attracted to physiologically ladies. On the Kinsey Scale, based on current evidence, he's somewhere between a Kinsey 0 and a Kinsey 3. Sexual attraction (in every variety, mind) has a chemical component to it, so Belkar is likely respondin' to some pheromones V is givin' off. While drunk, due to the in vino veritas thing, his amorous face-smoochin' is something he's more biologically than psychologically compelled to do. Now, V could be the closet key to Belkar learning new stuff about himself, that's entirely possible and plausible as a thing. However, the differences in how he treats Roy when Roy's male-bodied and when Roy's female-bodied kinda point me in the direction of physiologically female.




I tend to agree with all of that. I also think there are other hints, such as the one mentioned in the opening posts which suggest V is female. Of course not conclusive, but suggestive of he/she being female in my opinion.

[woweedd]

To use Bulldog's format, my idea:
Sex: Female.
Gender: Genderqueer.
Sexuality: Homosexual.

[HoodedHero007]

Uncertain. You used "bloody," which would peg you as British or Australian, or having learned the language from someone of these nationalities.

But it's trivially easy to insert that as a misdirection. You could be sitting 2 blocks from me here in the U.S. of A., or you could be a Russian with a good command of English, taught by an American-educated educator who knows English well enough to use "bloody" as a misdirection. Or a fungus from Yuggoth, for that matter. Etc.
You have passed the test

[Quild]

I'm still confused about why people try to guess V's gender, sex or sexuality.

Even if it wasn't his intention from the start, it seems to me that since some years, The Giant is writing V in a way that avoids any consensus.

I think that V's gender, sex and sexuality are supposed to be (non respectively) undecided, irrelevant and ambiguous.

But I guess that if the Giant was to say "I made the Creature in the Dark because I couldn't decide what this creature would be so I will never reveal it because I don't know myself", some people would still try to find what it is.
(I'm aware that my participation at the Geekery thread makes this comment quite ironic from me).

[Liquor Box]

I'm still confused about why people try to guess V's gender, sex or sexuality.

Even if it wasn't his intention from the start, it seems to me that since some years, The Giant is writing V in a way that avoids any consensus.

I think that V's gender, sex and sexuality are supposed to be (non respectively) undecided, irrelevant and ambiguous.

But I guess that if the Giant was to say "I made the Creature in the Dark because I couldn't decide what this creature would be so I will never reveal it because I don't know myself", some people would still try to find what it is.
(I'm aware that my participation at the Geekery thread makes this comment quite ironic from me).

Has the Giant said anything to indicate that he himself hadn't decided on V's gender? It's obvious that he has kept it ambiguous from the readers, but that doesn't suggest that he has not decided on V's gender himself.

And if the Giant does have a gender in mind for V, then there is nothing wrong with trying to guess what that it, except that we may never have confirmation one way or the other.


Edit:

I checked the links tot he Giant's comments. I have insufficient post count to post a link, but the comment is post 58 on a thread titled "Elves and fridgehorror in OotS" and is linked in the third post in the index thread.

The Giant says that a friend asked him V's gender and that he answered correctly. This demonstrates that the Giant has decided on V's gender and as such it is reasonable to discuss what that gender might be.

The post goes on to say that the Giant deliberately attempted to obfuscate V's gender when he became aware of the confusion (by giving a hint that was contrary to the prevailing opinion at the time).

This may suggest that early strips (before the deliberate attempts to obscure the gender) may be more indicative than later strips. That adds weight to the theory in the original post (which relied on the introductory strip) - women are more likely to speak of masculinity in disparaging terms than men are so V is more likely female.

[HoodedHero007]

What I say is:
Discover All The Things!

[Aedilred]

This may suggest that early strips (before the deliberate attempts to obscure the gender) may be more indicative than later strips. That adds weight to the theory in the original post (which relied on the introductory strip) - women are more likely to speak of masculinity in disparaging terms than men are so V is more likely female.
I think that was in reference to the print book On the Origin of PCs which was after the attempts to obfuscate V's gender had begun. In the same scene we have V inviting Roy to fill in the relevant box on the application form himself and Roy choosing to pass rather than take a guess. It's set before the start of the webcomic, but was written a while afterwards, so if we're looking for evidence from the early days of the comic it doesn't really qualify.

The very early strips might seem to point in the opposite direction, if we're assuming that V was originally intended as (cis) male or female and Rich later changed his mind. Roy refers to V as "V-man" in strip #9. There's also a point where Roy addresses V as "dog", which is by no means conclusive but tends to be used more commonly for guys than girls. I seem to recall Rich also said at one point that he copped to "totally Smurfetting" things with Haley, which suggests she was originally the only female member of the Order. That V doesn't have the stick-style feminine figure might also point in the same direction. And there's the name itself - "-ius" tending to be a masculine ending, and indeed causing me to read V as male until the ambiguity was pointed out (I forget whether that was on the forum or in one of the strips, now).

But it's a largely pointless debate, anyway, for the reasons mentioned and because even if that were the case once it clearly no longer is.

[Liquor Box]

I think that was in reference to the print book On the Origin of PCs which was after the attempts to obfuscate V's gender had begun. In the same scene we have V inviting Roy to fill in the relevant box on the application form himself and Roy choosing to pass rather than take a guess. It's set before the start of the webcomic, but was written a while afterwards, so if we're looking for evidence from the early days of the comic it doesn't really qualify.

The very early strips might seem to point in the opposite direction, if we're assuming that V was originally intended as (cis) male or female and Rich later changed his mind. Roy refers to V as "V-man" in strip #9. There's also a point where Roy addresses V as "dog", which is by no means conclusive but tends to be used more commonly for guys than girls. I seem to recall Rich also said at one point that he copped to "totally Smurfetting" things with Haley, which suggests she was originally the only female member of the Order. That V doesn't have the stick-style feminine figure might also point in the same direction. And there's the name itself - "-ius" tending to be a masculine ending, and indeed causing me to read V as male until the ambiguity was pointed out (I forget whether that was on the forum or in one of the strips, now).

But it's a largely pointless debate, anyway, for the reasons mentioned and because even if that were the case once it clearly no longer is.

You are quite right. I confused the origins of PC's with character introduction page (where Hayley has a diamond).

Roy referring to V as "V-man" was the very example given by the Giant of him trying to obfuscate the issue. Roy said that simply because the prevailing opinion (or at least the Giant's perception of it from polling the forum he was in at the time) was that V was female.

I have read people say V's figure and features look female, and you seem to think they look more male. I have to admit that I can't tell.

I must admit, I though V was male too, until the strip where V and Hayley shared a room at town.

The point remains that V has a gender and the Giant has decided what it is. As such, it as reasonable to discuss what that might be as it is to discuss what the monster under the umbrella might be (assuming the Giant has himself decided what it is).

[Cizak]

I've never said it's impossible either. I just said it was much less likely.

And I'm saying **** your likelihoods and statistics and percentages. They don't matter.


But the fact that such identities do exist in Stickverse doesn't mean that everyone has one, any more than it does in real life.

Yes, it sure was dumb of me to argue that every single character is LGBTQIA+, and not that I liked the idea of two of them being it because I saw it fitting with some world building.


The point remains that V has a gender and the Giant has decided what it is. As such, it as reasonable to discuss what that might be as it is to discuss what the monster under the umbrella might be (assuming the Giant has himself decided what it is).

Yeah, the Giant has decided what it is. It's "genderqueer". Next question.

[Aedilred]

And I'm saying **** your likelihoods and statistics and percentages. They don't matter.
There's no need to be rude.

[The Derp Potato]

Although s/he isn't really that masculine him/her self, doesn't mean s/he isn't male

[georgie_leech]

Yeah, the Giant has decided what it is. It's "genderqueer". Next question.

You have a citation for that? Last I checked not making a big deal about gender doesn't make someone genderqueer. I thought the whole point of respecting someone's gender identity was not just putting them in a little box, even if that box is part of the LGBT umbrella?

[Liquor Box]

Yeah, the Giant has decided what it is. It's "genderqueer". Next question.

Genderqueer usually denotes what gender a person prefers to identify as, not what gender the are as a biological reality. It is the biological reality of V's gender that I am discussing in this thread, and that I take most others to be discussing.

The Giant has said he has identified V's biological gender to a friend "who thankfully kept it to himself". That identification cannot have been the same as what he has said in public ("genderqueer" apparently) or he would not have needed to have been thankful that the friend did not pass it on.

At the end of the day, V has a gender, and there is nothing wrong with people discussing what it might be.

[Aedilred]

You have a citation for that? Last I checked not making a big deal about gender doesn't make someone genderqueer. I thought the whole point of respecting someone's gender identity was not just putting them in a little box, even if that box is part of the LGBT umbrella?

Apparently it was mentioned in the commentary for the latest print book (see below). It doesn't seem that he's said it on this forum.


I'm honestly surprised that no one on the forums has yet brought up that the Giant literally referred to Vaarsuvius as genderqueer in the BRITF commentary.

[DaggerPen]

Has the Giant said anything to indicate that he himself hadn't decided on V's gender? It's obvious that he has kept it ambiguous from the readers, but that doesn't suggest that he has not decided on V's gender himself.

And if the Giant does have a gender in mind for V, then there is nothing wrong with trying to guess what that it, except that we may never have confirmation one way or the other.


Edit:

I checked the links tot he Giant's comments. I have insufficient post count to post a link, but the comment is post 58 on a thread titled "Elves and fridgehorror in OotS" and is linked in the third post in the index thread.

The Giant says that a friend asked him V's gender and that he answered correctly. This demonstrates that the Giant has decided on V's gender and as such it is reasonable to discuss what that gender might be.

The post goes on to say that the Giant deliberately attempted to obfuscate V's gender when he became aware of the confusion (by giving a hint that was contrary to the prevailing opinion at the time).

This may suggest that early strips (before the deliberate attempts to obscure the gender) may be more indicative than later strips. That adds weight to the theory in the original post (which relied on the introductory strip) - women are more likely to speak of masculinity in disparaging terms than men are so V is more likely female.

Oh, I find it quite likely that V was originally male - even aside from the Smurfette comment, all of the robed female stick figure icons on the forums predating the comic (yes, this was a thing) have visible breasts vs. the squarer bodies used for the male ones. V's figure matches the typical male body base the Giant uses. Plus, every time I have seen ever that the Giant has messed up the s/he construction, it's been "he" or "him", sometimes even for the entire paragraph. I know Giant had previously stated he can get tired of said s/he construction, but it still strikes me as odd that it would always be "he" were V originally female.

As of now, though, I have no confidence that V still has vir original gender assignment in Giant's head - like, it's possible, but character conceptions in your head do develop, and I could 100% see V just coming to be genderless as far as Giant's concerned now.


You have a citation for that? Last I checked not making a big deal about gender doesn't make someone genderqueer. I thought the whole point of respecting someone's gender identity was not just putting them in a little box, even if that box is part of the LGBT umbrella?


Apparently it was mentioned in the commentary for the latest print book (see below). It doesn't seem that he's said it on this forum.

Yes, it was in the Blood Runs in the Family commentary. I remember reading it and being very surprised that I had not heard a word about it on the forums despite only getting the book this past Christmas, in fact. To quote sparingly so as not to include an untoward amount of content not accessible on the site itself -



In this way, Tarquin is also symbolic of an older time when stories were likely to be more formulaic or cliched - and less diverse. It's no accident that he's a wealthy old straight white man losing his marbles over the fact that the tale he is experiencing doesn't focus on the other straight white man at the expense of the black man, the woman, the genderqueer person, and even the Latino guest star.

[georgie_leech]

Much obliged. I've always thought of V just not caring about gender and sex beyond messing with a certain halfling than being between them.

[littlebum2002]

Genderqueer usually denotes what gender a person prefers to identify as, not what gender the are as a biological reality. It is the biological reality of V's gender that I am discussing in this thread, and that I take most others to be discussing.

The Giant has said he has identified V's biological gender to a friend "who thankfully kept it to himself". That identification cannot have been the same as what he has said in public ("genderqueer" apparently) or he would not have needed to have been thankful that the friend did not pass it on.

At the end of the day, V has a gender, and there is nothing wrong with people discussing what it might be.


Wait, hold on.

SO what you're telling us is that you're not concerned with what gender V identifies with, but merely what physical gender V is?

How on earth would you ever guess at that except by relying on gender stereotypes?

At the end of the day, there is a WHOLE LOT wrong with trying to peg down the physical gender of a person who doesn't want you to pin down their physical gender.


Scenario: There's a person who looks female walking down the street. Two friends try to guess if she's "really" a female, or a "guy who identifies as female". When confronted about it, they say "this person identifies as female, but has a physical gender, and at the end of the day there's nothing wrong with discussing what it might be"

DO I REALLY have to explain why that's wrong?

[Liquor Box]

Wait, hold on.

SO what you're telling us is that you're not concerned with what gender V identifies with, but merely what physical gender V is?

How on earth would you ever guess at that except by relying on gender stereotypes?

At the end of the day, there is a WHOLE LOT wrong with trying to peg down the physical gender of a person who doesn't want you to pin down their physical gender.


Scenario: There's a person who looks female walking down the street. Two friends try to guess if she's "really" a female, or a "guy who identifies as female". When confronted about it, they say "this person identifies as female, but has a physical gender, and at the end of the day there's nothing wrong with discussing what it might be"

DO I REALLY have to explain why that's wrong?

Yes, I am considering what physical gender V is. My understanding is that most people in this thread are discussing V's physical gender.

From post 58 of the thread linked we know that V has a physical gender (ie, the Giant has decided what gender she is). Also, from the fact that he was able to give a "straight answer" to his friend about V's gender it may be reasonable to assume V's gender is uncomplicated (he does not particularly identify as a gender other than her physical gender).

Validity of using prevalence of characteristics among males/females as an indication of gender.

It is perfectly valid to guess physical gender based on the characteristics V has and whether those characteristics are more frequently found among males or females (or based on stereotypes as you put it). A couple of examples:
- Before reading this thread I read a thread about Hayley's hair. In that thread a poster called "Aurilee" commented from personal experience on the comfort of wearing different style of pony-tales under a hood. I don't know anything of Aurilee, but I expect that she is a woman, because women more frequently wear pony-tales than men. Of course this is not conclusive, some men wear pony-tales, but I think it is probative. If we were to ask Aurilee her (or his) gender would you think the odds are that he/she would be a woman? If so it is valid to draw an inference (although not a conclusive one) as to physical gender based whether a characteristic is more commonly exhibited by males or females.
- Another example is post 46 of this thread, where Bulldog Scion guessed a person's nationality (correctly as it turned out) based on the prevalence of word the person used among certain populations.

Of course the validity of using the prevalence of characteristics among males/females (or stereotypes as you call them) to indicate gender depends on whether you do happen to consider certain characteristics to be more frequently exhibited by one gender than the other.

Unfortunately though it appears the validity of using stereotypes in V's case might be undermined by the Giant intentionally using gender atypical behavior to keep readers guessing.

Whether there is "a WHOLE LOT wrong" with relying on whether V exhibits gender norms

Your first point appears to be that it is wrong to peg down the gender of a person in the first place. Whether to do that is wrong in principle is off-topic for this thread, so I wont address it. However it is clearly not wrong in the case of V, who is not a real person and is not someone who is trying to avoid having her gender "pegged down". In fact V's physical gender is a frequent joke in the comic which doesn't strike me as much different than speculating about it.

As to your scenario, I don't think there is anything wrong with the friends discussing the strangers identity. If one of the friends was a female lesbian (who is attracted only to people who are physically female) should she be restrained from speculating if another person is of the gender she is attracted to?

Where I think there can be something wrong with speculation based on stereotypes is if the stereotypes are negative (unlike neutral stereotypes like how hair is worn or whether names tend to end with a vowel). For example if someone was to say "I think V is male because he is unduly aggressive and has little empathy for others" they would be stating a negative stereotype against men. Of course this may still be valid (if the stereotype happens to be accurate) but it is certainly not politically correct.



As an aside, it is of course possible to determine a person's physical gender without relying on stereotypes. Do you have any doubts that Hayley is physically female or that Roy is physically male, rather than just identifying as those genders?

On that point, a question for you. When Roy was wearing the gender bending belt was she a male or a female in your opinion?

[Liquor Box]

Much obliged. I've always thought of V just not caring about gender and sex beyond messing with a certain halfling than being between them.

I completely agree with this. My impression was not of someone who has a strong identity with a gender that may not match their physical gender, but of someone who sees gender as entirely unimportant and therefore makes no effort to comply with gender norms (such as dress).

[SaintRidley]

A quick and friendly reminder that when you're saying "physical gender" the term you're looking for is "[biological] sex." Vaarsuvius's gender identity, per the Giant, can be described as genderqueer and may in fact be nonbinary. What V's pants bits are and V's sex is as a consequence are unrelated to that question.

Note, then, that in terms of Roy's time with the Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity, his pants bits changed, but his gender identity remained the same, based on all indications. That is, Roy was a man with female anatomy during that time. He was read as a woman by many at the time, and so he did come to understand better his own chauvinistic attitudes for what they were, but Roy has been nothing if not securely attached to his masculinity as his gender identity from the beginning.

[137beth]

Vaarsuvius's gender identity, per the Giant, can be described as genderqueer and may in fact be nonbinary.

(emphasis mine)
More specifically, per the Giant in the commentary for BRiF.

In other matters, I've actually read V as asexual but panromantic, though I'm not sure about the latter descriptor. V never seems to be interested in physical intimacy, we know V's kids are adopted, and maybe I'm a little biased due to being annoyed at the lack of asexual characters in most fiction. I don't think we have enough information to make much more than a wild guess about V's romantic orientation...I'm not even sure V's relationship with Inky was viewed as romantic by V.

[Liquor Box]

A quick and friendly reminder that when you're saying "physical gender" the term you're looking for is "[biological] sex." Vaarsuvius's gender identity, per the Giant, can be described as genderqueer and may in fact be nonbinary. What V's pants bits are and V's sex is as a consequence are unrelated to that question.

Note, then, that in terms of Roy's time with the Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity, his pants bits changed, but his gender identity remained the same, based on all indications. That is, Roy was a man with female anatomy during that time. He was read as a woman by many at the time, and so he did come to understand better his own chauvinistic attitudes for what they were, but Roy has been nothing if not securely attached to his masculinity as his gender identity from the beginning.

Thanks, I hadn't been aware of the distinction between the terms "gender" and "sex" in this context.

The dictionary says that gender is made up of both biological factors (sex) as well as gender-identity factors. I think reference to "physical gender" and "gender identity" as factors making up a person's gender are clear enough in their meaning.

[Reddish Mage]

Ah, nuts. Now I have to tell my male feminist friends that we've become women. I can't believe none of us noticed.

Do female feminists who mention femininity become male? Because if so I should probably inform my female friends of that, too.

https://media.giphy.com/media/VTk1wX3HEzLNu/giphy.gif

See this is what happens when you screw with and deconstruct gender enough. Now everyone's confused about their own gender!

[veti]

I've posted this before, but I think it's a good argument so I'm gonna reboot it here:

The Order, as originally conceived, is clearly a Stereotypical Adventuring Group(TM). It has six members, which is the definitive standard size for an adventuring group. They are: a fighter, secondary fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard, and auxiliary. It has three humans, and one each of the other three most basic D&D races. It's, I think, the most typical, stereotypical, even perhaps archetypical, group it can be.

If you look at the SRD descriptions of the six classes, you'll notice:

The fighter is described as male
Rangers are male
Clerics are male
Bards are male
Rogues are female


If Rich simply tossed a (fair) coin for each character, the chance of his matching the SRD gender for all five of those characters would be only 3.125%.

Therefore, I interpret it as 96.875% likely that he didn't toss a coin, but deliberately aligned each character with its most prevalent stereotype, as codified in the SRD. And in that same SRD, Wizards are female. (Although there is no official word as to their sexual orientation.)

[MrSeriousName]

I don't want to seem pretentious or what-have-you, seeing as this is my first post and all, but I always just assumed that V's gender was determined by me as the reader. Like, whichever gender I thought gave the narrative the most intrigue was the one I allowed them to be. It's fun, then, in multiple readthroughs to interpret their actions as a man, woman, agendered, or genderqueer person as the comic progresses. It's been an interesting exercise with how I personally view gender.

[littlebum2002]

Hi Littlebum.

It is perfectly valid to suggest that it is more likely that a character belongs to a certain gender because they conform to characteristics more usually present in that gender. When those characteristics are either positive of negative, it may not be politically correct to do so, but that does not make it logically invalid.

Of course that a character exhibits characteristics more usually displayed by one gender than the other is not conclusive. There are plenty of people who do not act in accordance with the norms of their gender, but the information still has some value for those only wanting to make a best guess.

For example, if there were a character and the only thing we knew about him/her was that he/she liked DnD, it would not be unreasonable to infer that the character was more likely to be male than female if you believed that a liking for DnD is more prevalent in males than in females.

You're right, it isn't offensive at all to a genderqueer person to try and guess their physical sex. :smallsigh:

[Sir_Norbert]

Vaarsuvius is a fictional character, so I'm not sure how it's possible for him/her/ve (what is the accusative of "ve" anyway?) to know about our speculation in order to be offended by it.

[littlebum2002]

Vaarsuvius is a fictional character, so I'm not sure how it's possible for him/her/ve (what is the accusative of "ve" anyway?) to know about our speculation in order to be offended by it.

If someone were to make fun of Roy over his skin color, I'm almost positive other people with his skin color would be offended by that. So why would this be any different?

[Keltest]

If someone were to make fun of Roy over his skin color, I'm almost positive other people with his skin color would be offended by that. So why would this be any different?

Because we aren't doing this to mock or otherwise demean V.

[Cizak]

It's a principle thing. You don't try to figure out the physical sex of genderqueer people, just as you don't speculate about if a trans person has had bottom surgery, or if a bi person had had more male or female partners, or anything about anyone's sex, gender or sexuality. Genderqueer readers deserve to have representation in media without that representation turning into another round of Spot The Genitals by non-genderqueer readers.

[Liquor Box]

If someone were to make fun of Roy over his skin color, I'm almost positive other people with his skin color would be offended by that. So why would this be any different?

Because nobody is making fun of V.

If someone was to speculate about Roy's ethnicity, without making use of negative stereotypes, that would be fine. In fact speculation as to ethnicity of fictional characters happens all the time without much controversy - I can direct you to examples on the internet if you like.

[Liquor Box]

You're right, it isn't offensive at all to a genderqueer person to try and guess their physical sex. :smallsigh:

I think that is the consensus of everyone in this thread except for you and one other person. I think sarcasm only works if you aren't using it to illustrate an untenable position.

[Knaight]

(To put it another way: we don't know the downstairs anatomy of Lirian, but we also don't know what it is for any character, and can't know.

So either we say "anything goes" and every argument is simultaneously completely valid and completely invalid and all discussions are completely meaningless, or we use a sort of Occam's Razor until Proven Otherwise, whereby if, say, a character is drawn with breasts and other female traits, and is shown moments before an amorous encounter with a character drawn with a beard and a squared-off male-type body, we need to assume that the default is she's a heterosexual or bisexual woman until we get an in-comic indication that this isn't the case. IMO.)

Two things:
1) There's no need to know, every bit of evidence points towards Lirian identifying as female.
2) That's not actually accurate. Roy has straight up used the term "trouser titan" before.

[acire]

Vaarsuvius is a fictional character, so I'm not sure how it's possible for him/her/ve (what is the accusative of "ve" anyway?) to know about our speculation in order to be offended by it.

Actual genderqueer people read this comic and deserve to feel represented without the not-fun game of "Yeah, but what's V's REAL gender?" And even if that's not what people who are trying to guess at what's under V's robes consider themselves doing, that's what it feels like.

[jere7my]

I think that is the consensus of everyone in this thread except for you and one other person. I think sarcasm only works if you aren't using it to illustrate an untenable position.

Two other people.

[georgie_leech]

Two other people.

Three, for what it's worth.

[Vinyadan]

Actual genderqueer people read this comic and deserve to feel represented without the not-fun game of "Yeah, but what's V's REAL gender?" And even if that's not what people who are trying to guess at what's under V's robes consider themselves doing, that's what it feels like.

I think you should keep some detail in count.

1. The genderqueer deal wasn't known in the forum until this discussion.
2. Genderqueer is a broad definition. There really is room for speculation about V's exactly pinpointed gender.
3. The sex-orientation-gender differentiation is a very recent development, and I wouldn't be too surprised if it were completely surpassed by different categories within a couple of years. This is to explain why people wonder about V's sex, even though the thread is about the gender.
4. The broadly stroked definition was given by the author, not by the comic character. So it is possible that V doesn't identify as genderqueer, but as one of the subcategories (to give a stupid example, I don't identify as "person with hair", I identify as "dark-haired") which can correctly be put into the genderqueer category; category of whose existence V may well not be aware. If I know that I have a gold ring, it doesn't mean I know that my ring is made of a transition metal.
5. IRL I would be content with the person saying "I am genderqueer" (IRL I would be content with any expression from the other person, to be honest, or with their silence. The only case in which I would worry about it would be if I were looking forward to a relationship with them), but V is a fictional character, and I refuse to handle fictional characters like real ones.
5. I generally refuse to believe that all genderqueer people hold it as an offence to wonder about their sex.
6. I can't believe I am making a list of reasons of why it should be OK to discuss about something people in this forum have always discussed about.
7. I find the idea that you are not supposed to wonder about anyone's sex or gender completely absurd. You may be able to handle it in a genderless language like English, but in nearly every other language you'd have to learn how to talk without using adjectives, articles and compound verbs. Or do I need to start addressing everyone as "Your Lordship"? So I can decline everything to Lordship's gender.

Besides, there really is no malice. I would understand it if someone said stuff like "V's so stuck up! Like all pointy-eared people!" (or "like all [insert general definition to which a RL prejudice can be applied]), but this is just wondering about V's identity, which is part of V's character. I am the first to admit that the character (and the joke) is built around V's absolute lack of interest or understanding for sexual identity, rather than around the idea that we should wonder about V's identity. However, part of the joke is also the males in the party being baffled and occasionally comically curious about this, and part of this curiosity spilling over to the forums isn't strange, and likely shouldn't be offensive. Of course, the fact that the most curious one is Belkar is a bad sign, but V says that V turned invisible to frustrate Belkar to no end - a weird choice of words, if the objective had been to keep V's body a secret.

Is it possible to read all of V's behaviour as a way to keep V's sex and gender an intimate secret? Yes, it is, but this would require extremely good social skills for faking up an otherwise consistent personality. If the Ithillid didn't mix-up, we can suppose that V doesn't have such skills.

Now, I hope I didn't offend anyone (by which I mean, I hope I didn't offend anyone, which is slightly different from "I hope I didn't offend anyone who got offended because they thought that someone else may have gotten (instead of been) offended", which I wish for without hoping for it.)

[Liquor Box]

Three, for what it's worth.

Fair enough, there are a few people who think that it's not ok to speculate as to a comic character's physical gender.

Clearly though, there are several people who do see it as ok to speculate. Which means if Littlebum wants to assert otherwise what is required is some reason why it is not ok to do so, rather than his posts to date, from which I take him to be implying that the justification for his position is so obvious everyone should simply "get it". Clearly from this thread, the rationale is not so obvious because many people do not agree.

[Liquor Box]

Actual genderqueer people read this comic and deserve to feel represented without the not-fun game of "Yeah, but what's V's REAL gender?" And even if that's not what people who are trying to guess at what's under V's robes consider themselves doing, that's what it feels like.

Do you really think an actual genderqueer person reading this thread would be offended that someone was trying to guess the physical gender of V? I think it is more likely that the genderqueer member would be as inclined to participate in the discussion re V's sex as anyone (perhaps more so given their own perspective). Of course, I'm sure different genderqueer people would see it differently.

Age discrimination exists in society - Elders and chilldren are discriminated against. The stats and geekery thread speculates as to various characters' ages. Do you think that is immoral? Do elders who are "young at heart" deserve to represented without speculation about actual age - should they be offended by the age speculation?

[TinyMushroom]

Do you really think an actual genderqueer person reading this thread would be offended that someone was trying to guess the physical gender of V? I think it is more likely that the genderqueer member would be as inclined to participate in the discussion re V's sex as anyone (perhaps more so given their own perspective). Of course, I'm sure different genderqueer people would see it differently.

Age discrimination exists in society - Elders and chilldren are discriminated against. The stats and geekery thread speculates as to various characters' ages. Do you think that is immoral? Do elders who are "young at heart" deserve to represented without speculation about actual age - should they be offended by the age speculation?

Yo, actual genderqueer person just passing through the thread. While I indeed can't talk for every person, I don't think many of us would really be interested in the discussion re: V's physical sex. It'd be pretty hypocritical to not want to conform to a gender yourself and then turning around and trying to peg another genderqueer person into one, know what I mean?

To be honest, I myself am not really offended as much as just really tired of the V's gender discussion and wishing people would stop reviving it already.

Edit: Also I don't want to go too deeply into Real Life Issues but let me just say that age speculation and gender speculation aren't equivalent at all.

[Draconi Redfir]

If... you're not interested in the discussion... then why take part in it then?:smallconfused:

i mean, i have no interest in Ruby or Undertale, so i stay out of those threads. easy peasy lemon squeezy

[TinyMushroom]

I'm bored, It's late at night, I was really clicking on threads at random and then I saw people happening to discuss something I felt had to do with me. Usually I do stay out of these threads.

[Draconi Redfir]

Well alright then, makes sense to me. sorry about that.

[Liquor Box]

If... you're not interested in the discussion... then why take part in it then?:smallconfused:

i mean, i have no interest in Ruby or Undertale, so i stay out of those threads. easy peasy lemon squeezy

To be fair acire (and then me in reply) did speculate as to whether a genderqueer person would be offended by the discussion - it was practically an invitation for someone like Mushroom to interject.

Edit: Please disregard the above, I quoted your post then was distracted, so hadn't known you guys had replied to one another.

[acire]

Do you really think an actual genderqueer person reading this thread would be offended that someone was trying to guess the physical gender of V? I think it is more likely that the genderqueer member would be as inclined to participate in the discussion re V's sex as anyone (perhaps more so given their own perspective). Of course, I'm sure different genderqueer people would see it differently.

Age discrimination exists in society - Elders and chilldren are discriminated against. The stats and geekery thread speculates as to various characters' ages. Do you think that is immoral? Do elders who are "young at heart" deserve to represented without speculation about actual age - should they be offended by the age speculation?

Age is a category that affects stats in D&D; gender and physical sex do not affect stats.

Genderqueer is both a broad category and specific gender; I fall under the "broad category" part. I wasn't going to bring it up because it's nobody's business, but I feel like I should so we can clarify that I know how an actual genderqueer person feels about this thread. I can't speak for all actual genderqueer people feel, but I, an actual genderqueer person, can speak for how I feel about it.

[acire]

I think you should keep some detail in count.

1. The genderqueer deal wasn't known in the forum until this discussion.
2. Genderqueer is a broad definition. There really is room for speculation about V's exactly pinpointed gender.
3. The sex-orientation-gender differentiation is a very recent development, and I wouldn't be too surprised if it were completely surpassed by different categories within a couple of years. This is to explain why people wonder about V's sex, even though the thread is about the gender.
4. The broadly stroked definition was given by the author, not by the comic character. So it is possible that V doesn't identify as genderqueer, but as one of the subcategories (to give a stupid example, I don't identify as "person with hair", I identify as "dark-haired") which can correctly be put into the genderqueer category; category of whose existence V may well not be aware. If I know that I have a gold ring, it doesn't mean I know that my ring is made of a transition metal.
5. IRL I would be content with the person saying "I am genderqueer" (IRL I would be content with any expression from the other person, to be honest, or with their silence. The only case in which I would worry about it would be if I were looking forward to a relationship with them), but V is a fictional character, and I refuse to handle fictional characters like real ones.
5. I generally refuse to believe that all genderqueer people hold it as an offence to wonder about their sex.
6. I can't believe I am making a list of reasons of why it should be OK to discuss about something people in this forum have always discussed about.
7. I find the idea that you are not supposed to wonder about anyone's sex or gender completely absurd. You may be able to handle it in a genderless language like English, but in nearly every other language you'd have to learn how to talk without using adjectives, articles and compound verbs. Or do I need to start addressing everyone as "Your Lordship"? So I can decline everything to Lordship's gender.

Besides, there really is no malice. I would understand it if someone said stuff like "V's so stuck up! Like all pointy-eared people!" (or "like all [insert general definition to which a RL prejudice can be applied]), but this is just wondering about V's identity, which is part of V's character. I am the first to admit that the character (and the joke) is built around V's absolute lack of interest or understanding for sexual identity, rather than around the idea that we should wonder about V's identity. However, part of the joke is also the males in the party being baffled and occasionally comically curious about this, and part of this curiosity spilling over to the forums isn't strange, and likely shouldn't be offensive. Of course, the fact that the most curious one is Belkar is a bad sign, but V says that V turned invisible to frustrate Belkar to no end - a weird choice of words, if the objective had been to keep V's body a secret.

Is it possible to read all of V's behaviour as a way to keep V's sex and gender an intimate secret? Yes, it is, but this would require extremely good social skills for faking up an otherwise consistent personality. If the Ithillid didn't mix-up, we can suppose that V doesn't have such skills.

Now, I hope I didn't offend anyone (by which I mean, I hope I didn't offend anyone, which is slightly different from "I hope I didn't offend anyone who got offended because they thought that someone else may have gotten (instead of been) offended", which I wish for without hoping for it.)

1. That's true, but now it is known.
2. And if the thread was focused on whether V was agender or neutrois or any of the many genders that fall under genderqueer as a broad category, then I'd think that was odd because unless the Giant elaborates it's completely unknowable but not gross.
3. This explanation does not make the speculation less gross.
4. This feels like it's just restating point #2.
5. Well, some of us do. I can't speak for all of us, so you're free to imagine one until they speak and give you the OK.
6. I can't believe that you're falling back on appeal to tradition.
7. Genderqueer people who are native speakers of those languages are actually attempting to make room for themselves in their languages. For example, genderqueer people from Latin American countries frequently refer to themselves as Latinx. Language should change to fit the needs of its speakers, otherwise we wouldn't have words for modern inventions like computers.

If I thought there was malice, then I would have mentioned it. You don't need to defend the thread against accusations that I haven't made. I still find the thread gross.

[Animia]

I guess something was bound to make me stop lurking eventually.

Hi, I'm genderqueer. The jokes made on V's expense have always been unfortunate to me. It was another throwaway of hundreds in media that could be made into actual representation, but never was. With the comic itself, I could handle it. I'm used to worse. But when every fifth forum thread is either about or eventually devolves into a debate about what giblets V is sprouting, it's not fun. It's a big flashing neon sign saying "Welcome to Giant in the Playground! If we can't tell what genitals you have at a glance, we take it as our right to inspect, touch and openly discuss your body until we can figure it out!". This is not the same thing as the comic. This is closer to the "worse" I'm used to in real life.

And then I read BRitF, and I cried. I admit to that. In the very same paragraph where Mr. Burlew discusses how stories don't always have to be about the straight white dudes but can have various minorities as important stars, he openly states that V is genderqueer. After reading that, I openly wept. I'm not telling you this to win you over on empathy, I'm telling you this so that you know that words have meaning. One of my favorite authors acknowledge my existence as valid; that is more than some of my closest family have done.

So after having V's gender identity be canonically revealed, I dared to hope this forum would get better. I guess that was too much to hope for. In some cases, threads like this for example, it's gotten worse. Before, the speculation on V's sex was discouraging but at least understandable. The comic treated it as a joke with a definitive answer, and so people sought after that answer. It kept me out of the forum, but I could see where it was coming from. But now people are openly stating "I know V is genderqueer, but I still feel it's tasteful and appropriate to analyze their entire being (personality, outwards anatomy, speech, mannerisms, interaction with others) to try to figure out if they have a penis or a vagina, because it's important for some reason." This, now more than ever, is telling me that as genderqueer, I'm an outsider of society whose body is public property that exists for everyone to take part of. That is how the posters here treat one of the most beloved characters in the comic; that is how I deserve to be treated.

"It's a fictional character" doesn't work. Escapism doesn't exist. You're still in the real world while on the internet. Your forum posts are equal to what you would say to a person's face. Everything we analyze about fiction have application in the real world. And the discussions about V's sex and gender identity just tells me that this forum is just another place where I would not feel welcome or safe. Because I've seen how my "kind" is looked upon here.

[Vinyadan]

1. That's true, but now it is known.
2. And if the thread was focused on whether V was agender or neutrois or any of the many genders that fall under genderqueer as a broad category, then I'd think that was odd because unless the Giant elaborates it's completely unknowable but not gross.
3. This explanation does not make the speculation less gross.
4. This feels like it's just restating point #2.
5. Well, some of us do. I can't speak for all of us, so you're free to imagine one until they speak and give you the OK.
6. I can't believe that you're falling back on appeal to tradition.
7. Genderqueer people who are native speakers of those languages are actually attempting to make room for themselves in their languages. For example, genderqueer people from Latin American countries frequently refer to themselves as Latinx. Language should change to fit the needs of its speakers, otherwise we wouldn't have words for modern inventions like computers.

If I thought there was malice, then I would have mentioned it. You don't need to defend the thread against accusations that I haven't made. I still find the thread gross.

I can't work with a category such as "gross", and I actually wonder whether it's an euphemism; more importantly, I wouldn't feel disallowed from discussing a theme on the basis of "gross". Offensive? OK, I wouldn't talk about that. The appeal to tradition is actually an appeal to forum rules (which can of course be changed, but until now haven't been) and to the matter of fact that V wasn't originally written that way. And good luck pronouncing "latinx", which I assume is an English word used in written context, and not in a Latin language.



"It's a fictional character" doesn't work. Escapism doesn't exist. You're still in the real world while on the internet. Your forum posts are equal to what you would say to a person's face. Everything we analyze about fiction have application in the real world. And the discussions about V's sex and gender identity just tells me that this forum is just another place where I would not feel welcome or safe. Because I've seen how my "kind" is looked upon here.

Many of the things you have written are extremely impressive, but I still think that you are wrong in seeing discussion of a fictional character as serious as discussion about a real person. However,

words have meaning.
The moment the Giant made V officially genderqueer, the joke stopped being a joke. Also, a realistic portrayal of how it makes you feel to read this thread is enough for me to stop posting in it. So, goodbye thread.

[Hjorth]

I guess something was bound to make me stop lurking eventually.

Hi, I'm genderqueer. The jokes made on V's expense have always been unfortunate to me. It was another throwaway of hundreds in media that could be made into actual representation, but never was. With the comic itself, I could handle it. I'm used to worse. But when every fifth forum thread is either about or eventually devolves into a debate about what giblets V is sprouting, it's not fun. It's a big flashing neon sign saying "Welcome to Giant in the Playground! If we can't tell what genitals you have at a glance, we take it as our right to inspect, touch and openly discuss your body until we can figure it out!". This is not the same thing as the comic. This is closer to the "worse" I'm used to in real life.

And then I read BRitF, and I cried. I admit to that. In the very same paragraph where Mr. Burlew discusses how stories don't always have to be about the straight white dudes but can have various minorities as important stars, he openly states that V is genderqueer. After reading that, I openly wept. I'm not telling you this to win you over on empathy, I'm telling you this so that you know that words have meaning. One of my favorite authors acknowledge my existence as valid; that is more than some of my closest family have done.

So after having V's gender identity be canonically revealed, I dared to hope this forum would get better. I guess that was too much to hope for. In some cases, threads like this for example, it's gotten worse. Before, the speculation on V's sex was discouraging but at least understandable. The comic treated it as a joke with a definitive answer, and so people sought after that answer. It kept me out of the forum, but I could see where it was coming from. But now people are openly stating "I know V is genderqueer, but I still feel it's tasteful and appropriate to analyze their entire being (personality, outwards anatomy, speech, mannerisms, interaction with others) to try to figure out if they have a penis or a vagina, because it's important for some reason." This, now more than ever, is telling me that as genderqueer, I'm an outsider of society whose body is public property that exists for everyone to take part of. That is how the posters here treat one of the most beloved characters in the comic; that is how I deserve to be treated.

"It's a fictional character" doesn't work. Escapism doesn't exist. You're still in the real world while on the internet. Your forum posts are equal to what you would say to a person's face. Everything we analyze about fiction have application in the real world. And the discussions about V's sex and gender identity just tells me that this forum is just another place where I would not feel welcome or safe. Because I've seen how my "kind" is looked upon here.

Thank you, this is a lovely post and I agree with all of it (including the "crying when reading BRitF" part).

[Black Socks]

Maybe the elves in the OOTS world have different genders than male and female. This explains why the elves used words like "mate" and "parent", because there is no Common equivalent for the words they were actually using.

[Murk]

-Snip-

I'm trying not to dive into the whole gender-thing, but I just wanted to respond by saying that, to my experience, how the people (myself included) on this forum treat fictional characters is not really representative of their outlook toward actual people. You can say that escapism doesn't exist, and maybe it doesn't, but I think this forum is rather non-hostile towards pretty much everything.

As others have said, there's a lot of "non-polite" guessing going on around here. Now, I understand that for some reason, age or race isn't comparable to gender, but this is a place to speculate on, say, "what kind of damage does it take to kill someone?" or "how much fireballs do you need to throw at an army to get through?", or, heck, even the validity of genocide has been talked about (and properly shut down).

I'm really not trying to diminish or discard your opinions or feelings, honestly, but I do assume that most of the forum goers here do not actually consider killing people. In the same way they wouldn't think of looking down on someone for their gender - even though, in the analysis of the comic, they might consider such things.

Once again, this is not meant to be agressive or mean - I just want to reassure you that the forum is actually a pretty friendly place.

[theinsulabot]

actually if we are talking about early issues explaining V's gender, I have always associated V with being male since almost the very first thing he does is start talking about how awesome explosions are and bragging about burning ALL THE THINGS. his dialogue is right out of an 80's machismo flick. it was some time before I even learned there was supposed to be confusion on the issue. but yeah, one of if not actual his first character defining moments was extremely stereotypicaly male. that was toned down in later strips, but then again the giant says he took steps to make V's gender ambiguous, so that holds up.

[Murk]

It's actually pretty nice that genderqueer people can act "stereotypical male" if they want and still not be male (as can anyone), so while it wasn't meant as such, it's actually a decent point to make, in retrospect.

[Lycunadari]

I'm trying not to dive into the whole gender-thing, but I just wanted to respond by saying that, to my experience, how the people (myself included) on this forum treat fictional characters is not really representative of their outlook toward actual people. You can say that escapism doesn't exist, and maybe it doesn't, but I think this forum is rather non-hostile towards pretty much everything.

As others have said, there's a lot of "non-polite" guessing going on around here. Now, I understand that for some reason, age or race isn't comparable to gender, but this is a place to speculate on, say, "what kind of damage does it take to kill someone?" or "how much fireballs do you need to throw at an army to get through?", or, heck, even the validity of genocide has been talked about (and properly shut down).

I'm really not trying to diminish or discard your opinions or feelings, honestly, but I do assume that most of the forum goers here do not actually consider killing people. In the same way they wouldn't think of looking down on someone for their gender - even though, in the analysis of the comic, they might consider such things.

Once again, this is not meant to be agressive or mean - I just want to reassure you that the forum is actually a pretty friendly place.
The thing is this – nobody throws around fireballs in real life, and there are very few people who have been complicit in genocide or have killed someone. So it is reasonable to assume that the people discussing it here wouldn't even think of doing it in real life (well, apart from the fireball thowing. :smallwink: ). But trans people getting discriminated and treated as less-than-human? It happens all the time. Literally. There have been about 90 trans people (mostly women) murdered in 2015. (http://tdor.info/) And that is obviously just the worst of it. People try all the time to guess our genders, or our anatomy. Trans women are constantly the butt of jokes. People – strangers – actually ask invasive questions, what parts we have, how we have sex, how "far" we have transitioned... We get misgendered all the time. People try to find "proof" that we aren't really our gender - be it that we are too tall, too little, out voice doesn't sound quite "right", we don't act streotypically enough - or too stereotypically. We get denied medical treatment. We get called insane, sick, freaks. And it hurts. It's tiring, so very tiring. I don't know a single trans person who doesn't have depression from all the stuff we have to put up.
So people trying to guess a comic character's sex? It is very reasonable to assume (or to fear) that they would, indeed, treat real trans people the same.

(I don't actually mind people trying to guess V's gender that much - though it's kinda unnecessary now that we know that V's genderqueer. Though it's a bit icky to see all this stereotyping. But people trying to guess V's anatomy definitely is, for me, too close to the horrible treatment trans people get in real life.)

Also, this rant isn't directed at you specifically (or anyone), Murk, and I'm not trying to acuse anyone of being a horribly transphobic person. Your post just gave me good reason to reply.

[Murk]

Hm. I actually hoped that murder was a realistic, regular and horrible enough situation to be comparable. I understand that it's less an "average day" phenomenon, though.
Actually, now that I say it, I'm quite glad that murder isn't an average day phenomenon too, and I'll keep it at that.

[Peelee]

Hm. I actually hoped that murder was a realistic, regular and horrible enough situation to be comparable. I understand that it's less an "average day" phenomenon, though.
Actually, now that I say it, I'm quite glad that murder isn't an average day phenomenon too, and I'll keep it at that.

Pro tip: don't move to Birmingham.

[rodneyAnonymous]

As others have already commented: many feminists are male.

[Iskios]

Forgive me if someone has already mentioned/asked this as I am new to the discussion and the thread is long.
I was just looking at the wallpapers and the day at the beach one had V in what looks like an old-timey bathing suit with a skirt and bathing cap.
google search lead me to believe that this is the female variation of old-timey swim-suits. And since old-timey people tended to be rather strict adherents
(at least in main stream public appearances) when it came to gendered clothing, is this meant ti be a definitive statement on V's biological sex?
If so I think I might die a little inside :*( lol

[Peelee]

Short answer? No.

Long answer? Nooooooooooooooooooo

[Hamste]

Forgive me if someone has already mentioned/asked this as I am new to the discussion and the thread is long.
I was just looking at the wallpapers and the day at the beach one had V in what looks like an old-timey bathing suit with a skirt and bathing cap.
google search lead me to believe that this is the female variation of old-timey swim-suits. And since old-timey people tended to be rather strict adherents
(at least in main stream public appearances) when it came to gendered clothing, is this meant ti be a definitive statement on V's biological sex?
If so I think I might die a little inside :*( lol

The elf who completely ignores sex, doesn't seem to care about what people refer to them as and doesn't see anything different about Roy wearing a skirt almost certainly doesn't care about which gender generally wears what. How strict old timey people were on gendered appearances also has absolutely nothing to do with V as that is the exact opposite of how V has acted up to this point.

[KorvinStarmast]

V's gender is less interesting to me (to the point of not being, per V's "what possible difference does that make?" ) than how Rich has worked on V's character and challenges.

Talented magician who is a bit self absorbed. Takes a great opportunity on that talent show and completely blows it. This is a neat take on "if you are going to screw up, screw up in a spectacular fashion."

Unable to use pith or brevity. character flaw.

Focused on own profession and goals to the point that it destroys the marriage in two different ways: one, a black dragon becomes a tangible threat to spouse and kids; in the ensuing plot arc alienates spouse to the point of accepting that this marriage is doomed, and that profession/mission is far more important.

Acquiring power for power's sake shows, as in Tolkien's books, to have some serious drawbacks. The deal with the fiends, and the "I did WHAT" vis a vis the dragon bloodline.

Remorse and the hunger for redemption.

The philosophical musings, now and again, to include near the end of BRiTF "do we really know what's going on here?" after discussing with Blackwing what's on the other side of the gate.

The earlier fun with Belkar and their shenanigans was good for some comic relief, as is the running gag with explosive runes. (A spell I overused in earlier D&D editions and games my own self).

One of the few poignant moments came early when V really took the piss out of Elan for his attempt at multiclass to wizard, and their reconciliation/apology. Not a big thing but a neat little vignette before more substantial character development came along.

All said and done: V has offered some interesting story progression and humorous lines with deadpan delivery.

Can't we just enjoy this character for her/his own sake?

[littlebum2002]

So after having V's gender identity be canonically revealed, I dared to hope this forum would get better. I guess that was too much to hope for. In some cases, threads like this for example, it's gotten worse. Before, the speculation on V's sex was discouraging but at least understandable. The comic treated it as a joke with a definitive answer, and so people sought after that answer. It kept me out of the forum, but I could see where it was coming from. But now people are openly stating "I know V is genderqueer, but I still feel it's tasteful and appropriate to analyze their entire being (personality, outwards anatomy, speech, mannerisms, interaction with others) to try to figure out if they have a penis or a vagina, because it's important for some reason." This, now more than ever, is telling me that as genderqueer, I'm an outsider of society whose body is public property that exists for everyone to take part of. That is how the posters here treat one of the most beloved characters in the comic; that is how I deserve to be treated.

"It's a fictional character" doesn't work. Escapism doesn't exist. You're still in the real world while on the internet. Your forum posts are equal to what you would say to a person's face. Everything we analyze about fiction have application in the real world. And the discussions about V's sex and gender identity just tells me that this forum is just another place where I would not feel welcome or safe. Because I've seen how my "kind" is looked upon here.

Wow, this is almost exactly what I said 2 weeks ago:


Wait, hold on.

SO what you're telling us is that you're not concerned with what gender V identifies with, but merely what physical gender V is?

How on earth would you ever guess at that except by relying on gender stereotypes?

At the end of the day, there is a WHOLE LOT wrong with trying to peg down the physical gender of a person who doesn't want you to pin down their physical gender.


Scenario: There's a person who looks female walking down the street. Two friends try to guess if she's "really" a female, or a "guy who identifies as female". When confronted about it, they say "this person identifies as female, but has a physical gender, and at the end of the day there's nothing wrong with discussing what it might be"

DO I REALLY have to explain why that's wrong?

I have long been trying to make these forums as a safe place, but there are far too many people in here who just plain don't get it. So I apologize on the behalf of those who just don't realize how incredibly offensive threads like this are, and I sincerely hope this is the last one.

And just in case it isn't, I am saving the link to your post, so next time someone speculates on "what V's gender is", I can link to your words as to how, exactly, they are making others feel.

[Murk]

Wow, this is almost exactly what I said 2 weeks ago:
I have long been trying to make these forums as a safe place, but there are far too many people in here who just plain don't get it. So I apologize on the behalf of those who just don't realize how incredibly offensive threads like this are, and I sincerely hope this is the last one.

I'm not going to debate you on the offensiveness of threads like these - though I'd originally disagree, I'll take your (and others') word on it that it is offensive.

That doesn't change my stance towards these forums, though. As I see it, this is one of the more tolerant, friendly and safe forums on the internet.
I'm really sorry if someone gets offended or hurt, truly, but it does make me wonder how they ever survived the internet. If threads like these hurt your feelings, then how didn't you permanently shut off your internet connection the first time you used it?


(Disclaimer: I'm all for people being able to feel offended. I really don't think you are all overreacting or whining. No sarcasm. I'm just baffled by the strong reactions this get, since everyone here seems to be a veteran internet user)

[jere7my]

I'm not going to debate you on the offensiveness of threads like these - though I'd originally disagree, I'll take your (and others') word on it that it is offensive.

That doesn't change my stance towards these forums, though. As I see it, this is one of the more tolerant, friendly and safe forums on the internet.
I'm really sorry if someone gets offended or hurt, truly, but it does make me wonder how they ever survived the internet. If threads like these hurt your feelings, then how didn't you permanently shut off your internet connection the first time you used it?


(Disclaimer: I'm all for people being able to feel offended. I really don't think you are all overreacting or whining. No sarcasm. I'm just baffled by the strong reactions this get, since everyone here seems to be a veteran internet user)

Because people who aren't straight cis white males don't have the option of choosing not to engage with a world that hurts their feelings? I (a SWCM) can just walk away from situations that upset me, because I know I can easily find another place that's set up with my preferences in mind; not everyone has that luxury. That's the value of the much-maligned "safe spaces": they're places where people who have to deal with constant minor (and major) annoyances just for existing can get a break from that.

[Kish]

Yeah, "How they ever survived the Internet" seems incompatible with "I really don't think you are all overreacting or whining. No sarcasm." There is no threshold of people who can say, essentially, that what Vaarsuvius' gender identity is is irrelevant and what's between their legs is all that matters, and suddenly magically make that not be an insult to everyone who isn't cis.

[littlebum2002]

You have to remember 2 things:

1) offensiveness, like "ugliness", is subjective. Just like you can't objectively tell someone "that painting is ugly" because they might find it beautiful, you can't tell someone whether something should be offensive to them

2) the world, the internet included, is a changing place. 10 years ago a safe place meant "nothing blatantly racist or sexist is said there". But now a safe place is supposed to be where everyone is included and hopefully not offended. And there's no way "hey, let's guess what sex this character is, since they don't conform to our ideas of typical gender standards" in no way fits in a safe place.

[Murk]

EDIT:
Nevermind. I think this thread and everyone involved is better off if the thread dies a peaceful death. Have a nice day all.

[Liquor Box]

You have to remember 2 things:

1) offensiveness, like "ugliness", is subjective. Just like you can't objectively tell someone "that painting is ugly" because they might find it beautiful, you can't tell someone whether something should be offensive to them


I speculating on this V's actual gender in this thread because, although my opinion remains that there is nothing offensive abotu doing so, one person (of the two genderqueer people who commented) was upset by it. No reason to upset that person, whether or not I think their offence is well founded.

But I'm not sure how far one can take your comment. You seem to be suggesting that nobody should have a discussion that a group of people find offensive, and because offensiveness is subjective one can never question that group. If one were to reverse the situation though - If a group of bigots were to take offence to a thread discussing what gender V identified as having, would you be so quick to condemn the discussion? If not, you are applying objective analysis to the offence taken to determine that one type of offence is worthy of being respected, and one is not.

[SaintRidley]

If not, you are applying objective analysis to the offence taken to determine that one type of offence is worthy of being respected, and one is not.

And you know what? It turns out some kinds of offense are worthy of respect and others are not. The offense taken by bigots at seeing the acceptance of the object of their bigotry? Simply not worthy of respect. The offense taken by a marginalized population at being gawked at and speculated upon and treated as if their identity is not truly settled until someone knows their entire genealogy or what's in their pants? Worthy of respect. Turns out, different things are different, and we can treat them differently. Bigots get upset for bigoted reasons and we have no reason to accommodate them.

[Liquor Box]

And you know what? It turns out some kinds of offense are worthy of respect and others are not. The offense taken by bigots at seeing the acceptance of the object of their bigotry? Simply not worthy of respect. The offense taken by a marginalized population at being gawked at and speculated upon and treated as if their identity is not truly settled until someone knows their entire genealogy or what's in their pants? Worthy of respect. Turns out, different things are different, and we can treat them differently. Bigots get upset for bigoted reasons and we have no reason to accommodate them.
Exactly!

I agree. We should not be respecting the offence taken by the bigots. We should be exmining (and discussing) the reason's for people's offence, and determining whether that offence is worthy of respect or not.

My objection was to the suggestion that if a person if offended then that is sufficient, and we should immediately cease discussions of the point. (To be fair, this may be taking Littlebum's point too far - I apologise if I have misinterpreted it). It would be a bland world we live in if one were to always avoid discussing anything in case it offends a person.

[littlebum2002]

It's just, for the life of me, I can't understand how someone could NOT realize that trying to peg down the physical sex of a genderqueer person is incredibly offensive to genderqueer people.

Just do me a favor. Next time you see a genderqueer person on the street, go ask them if they're male or female. Then, when they inevitably get incredibly offended at the question, tell them it's ok because you're just curious and like to know these things.

And before you say it's different, because V is fictional, answer me: is it ok to say racist things about Roy just because he's fictional? Of course not, because people who have dark skin in real life will find that offensive. It's literally the exact same thing. Unless you're willing to try and peg the physical sex of people you meet in real life, don't do it to a fictional character.

And yes, I am totally ok with being offensive to bigots and no, I see no reason to apologize for that. Anyone who thinks you have to be sensitive to bigots has far more problems than I can help them with.

And no, if one person on earth found it offensive to talk about, say, leaves then I don't think you should stop just for that one person. But this isn't one person, it's a pretty universal rule that it's rude to try and guess someone's sex. Heck, literally the first result (https://www.quora.com/Is-it-rude-to-ask-someone-if-theyre-male-or-female) I found on Google for "is it offensive to try and guess someone's sex" brings up someone asking the question with 15 people saying variations on "yes it is"

I would have no problem with you if you didn't realize what you did was offensive and stopped one you learned it was. The disgusting thing is that now you realize people find it offensive and you still want to continue doing it, even though this discussion has no positive impact on the world EXCEPT to offend people

[Liquor Box]

It's just, for the life of me, I can't understand how someone could NOT realize that trying to peg down the physical sex of a genderqueer person is incredibly offensive to genderqueer people.

Just do me a favor. Next time you see a genderqueer person on the street, go ask them if they're male or female. Then, when they inevitably get incredibly offended at the question, tell them it's ok because you're just curious and like to know these things.

And before you say it's different, because V is fictional, answer me: is it ok to say racist things about Roy just because he's fictional? Of course not, because people who have dark skin in real life will find that offensive. It's literally the exact same thing. Unless you're willing to try and peg the physical sex of people you meet in real life, don't do it to a fictional character.

And yes, I am totally ok with being offensive to bigots and no, I see no reason to apologize for that. Anyone who thinks you have to be sensitive to bigots has far more problems than I can help them with.

And no, if one person on earth found it offensive to talk about, say, leaves then I don't think you should stop just for that one person. But this isn't one person, it's a pretty universal rule that it's rude to try and guess someone's sex. Heck, literally the first result (https://www.quora.com/Is-it-rude-to-ask-someone-if-theyre-male-or-female) I found on Google for "is it offensive to try and guess someone's sex" brings up someone asking the question with 15 people saying variations on "yes it is"

I would have no problem with you if you didn't realize what you did was offensive and stopped one you learned it was. The disgusting thing is that now you realize people find it offensive and you still want to continue doing it, even though this discussion has no positive impact on the world EXCEPT to offend people

Interesting, the first thing I got was this:
http://forum.deviantart.com/devart/general/1988436/
The general theme is that it is ok to ask, but ask politely. Also, one person in this thread said they were offended and one said they were not. Because one person was offended, I have not discussed V's gender in this thread since. So it is clearly not universally seen as offensive. Indeed, probably most people in this thread have discussed V's gender, so most think it is ok to do so.

I also think your Roy analogy misses. Of course there is a problem with saying racist things about Roy - but nobody is denigrating queer-gender people. Trying to guess V's gender is similar to trying to guess Roy's ethnicity - and I think most people would find that accpetable. In fact I think there are thread speculating the ethnicity of many characters on different forums, where it is not obvious.

Anyway,I can see this sort of discussion is upsetting to you, as the original debate was to the person who commented a page or two back. So lets not engage on it any further - or if you prefer we can discuss by private messaging.

[DavidBV]

Unbelievable. The day we can't guess anymore what is Varsuuvius gender in this forum because it might offend some people is in fact a very sad day. It is, I believe, one of the oldest identity marks of one of the protagonists, and has been discussed a thousand times. In none of those I recall remarks that could be insulting towards people of <insert gender identity or lack of> in real life. What's next, Elan jokes are making fun of the mentally-challenged? Any form of humor, almost without exception, draws from human weaknesses and/or insecurities; I understand people not liking being mocked or ridiculed, but neither of that happens here, and if the mere *mention* of gender-guessing of a fictional character is painful to some people... okay, who am I to say what hurts another being and what doesn't. But why are they reading this thread, which has such a perfectly descriptive title?

[martianmister]

It is interesting indeed. Having an ambigious gender/sex/orientation is one of V's main hooks. It is one of the most discussed topics in this forum. But now it's gone? :smallfrown:

[Kish]

It is, I believe, one of the oldest identity marks of one of the protagonists, and has been discussed a thousand times. In none of those I recall remarks that could be insulting towards people of <insert gender identity or lack of> in real life. What's next, Elan jokes are making fun of the mentally-challenged? Any form of humor, almost without exception, draws from human weaknesses and/or insecurities; I understand people not liking being mocked or ridiculed, but neither of that happens here, and if the mere *mention* of gender-guessing of a fictional character is painful to some people... okay, who am I to say what hurts another being and what doesn't. But why are they reading this thread, which has such a perfectly descriptive title?

The "it" in "it is one of the oldest identity marks" is what, exactly? That Vaarsuvius is genderqueer, which says something about Vaarsuvius, or that some people on the forum desperately want to brush "genderqueer" away and figure out which of two absolute and immutable sex tags belongs on zir (which says something about those people)?

(Also, if you somehow missed all the "Vaarsuvius is rational and confident and aggressive, therefore a man" crap in previous gender debate threads, or don't see how they insult anyone with a female gender identity, you've either been amazingly lucky or haven't been real concerned with whether they were offensive.)

Also, as a rule of thumb, if you find yourself defending your inalienable right to make someone else feel like garbage, you're on the wrong side of the argument.

[Liquor Box]

I think it is important to remember that there is a difference between denigrating genderqueer people and discussing the sex of a character in non-offensive terms. From what I have seen there has been no denigration or offensive comment in this thread (Ihaven't seen any of the previous threads on the point), only discussion. That is why the analogy of being racist about Roy doesn't work - nobody is making the equivalent of racist comments about V.

I understand that some people view it as offensive to merely discuss V's sex (even in a non-provocative way), because it suggests that V's sex is of more interest than V's gender identity. People genderqueer people may be upset by the emphasis on the sex they were born with, rather than the gender-identity they prefer.

At the same time, the comic provokes such discussion with respect to V. While word of giant is that V's gender identity is genderqueer, his or her sex is left provocatively ambiguous (not because it doesn't matter, but as a plot device), and is the subject of several in-comic jokes. In my opinion it is clearly subject matter that provokes discussion. If there was no discussion, and no interest in the subject, then there would be no need for the deliberate ambiguity, and for jokes such as the one in the eigth panel of the following:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html

I have chosen not to participate anymore because the discussion because (rightly or wrongly) it is upsetting to someone. But I don't think we can blame people for discussing V's sex in a forum set up specifically for the purpose of discussing a comic which makes V's sex a source of material.

[georgie_leech]

Mind you, the comic did so by having Belkar actually try and find out, via actual observation (shame about Invisibility and a lack of knowledge about lizard genitalia :smallamused: ). To my knowledge, the comic never had some variation of 'V displayed [arbitrary stereotype about gender]! That must mean they have a [specific form of sex organ]!

[DavidBV]

The "it" in "it is one of the oldest identity marks" is what, exactly? That Vaarsuvius is genderqueer, which says something about Vaarsuvius, or that some people on the forum desperately want to brush "genderqueer" away and figure out which of two absolute and immutable sex tags belongs on zir (which says something about those people)?

I can't read people's minds, that must be my problem. When a poster says "I think V is a he" and another replies "I think is a she", I really don't care about what is their view on genderqueer people, if they want to brush away anything or not, I look at the reasons they give behind the guessing, if any. Maybe they are saints, serial killers, bigots, or aliens, but as I don't know them, I don't care if they have an "agenda". If I couldn't stand the mere notion of people guessing genders, I'd certainly stay very far away from this forum, maybe even from the comic. Or if I liked it so much, I'd come, but stay away from this subject entirely.

I know someone that lost a daughter to an unfortunate accident with a weapon. So let me ask a question, if she happened to post here that the fact everyone carries weapons openly in the comic reminds her of the weapons issue in the US all the time, and all the threads about guessing what weapon is carrying character X does the same, do you think we should stop talking about weapons altogether?

Or even closer. This comic made me personally suffer once, remembering a tragic experience I lived, with personal guilt mixed in. I won't go into specifics, but yeah, it doesn't get any worse in life than that. Whenever I re-read that part, or is discussed, it comes back to me. In my case, I decide to deal with it, would be entirely valid to simply skip those parts of the comic, and avoid the threads... but I won't make other people be quiet, I don't feel I have the right to do that, although I would if they were mocking the situation, or endorsing it in some way. And I am sure it happens to everyone at some point, and not only with OoTS, but with every piece of complex and long fiction. People has had their families murdered, like Redcloak, or lost family members in wars, and many other horrible things going on and being discussed all the time here. Should we stop discussing *anything* that might potentially hurt anyone? This would become a rather quiet place. Just to give you an idea, I know people that is badly triggered at the "short angry person" stereotype, so there goes half the forum

[Kish]

That's a lot of words not to answer my question at all.

[KorvinStarmast]

This would become a rather quiet place. You say that like it's a bad thing. With the signal to noise ratio being as small as it is, a "quieter" place might be a better place. This thread strikes me as a data point supporting my thought there.

That's a lot of words not to answer my question at all. Happens a lot on the internet, both the "that's a lot of words" and "didn't really answer my question." We can take the bitter with the sweet.

[littlebum2002]

At the same time, the comic provokes such discussion with respect to V. While word of giant is that V's gender identity is genderqueer, his or her sex is left provocatively ambiguous (not because it doesn't matter, but as a plot device), and is the subject of several in-comic jokes. In my opinion it is clearly subject matter that provokes discussion. If there was no discussion, and no interest in the subject, then there would be no need for the deliberate ambiguity, and for jokes such as the one in the eigth panel of the following:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html

I think it speaks volumes that the only person interested in determining Belkar's identity is Belkar. He's not exactly who I would consider to be a good role model. So next time you speculate on V's gender, just remember who you're emulating and consider whether or not that's something you really want to be doing.





I have chosen not to participate anymore because the discussion because (rightly or wrongly) it is upsetting to someone.

That's all we were asking for. No one (well, I hope no one) is blaming you for not realizing it was offensive, but once you realize it is offensive, then you're supposed to stop.



But I don't think we can blame people for discussing V's sex in a forum set up specifically for the purpose of discussing a comic which makes V's sex a source of material.

Well, as I said before, the fact that the only character interested in pegging V's sex is like the 3rd most evil character in the strip should have given you a hint, but still, let's just let it be over.

[Themrys]

There actually IS evidence for what vaarsuvius' gender, you just have to know where to look!

In On the Origin of PCs, when vaarsuvius is being interviewed by roy (and after V broke the table), V says (Aprox.) "Bah! You are only hiring me because I intimidated you intellectually! Causing your MASCULINE pride to need to establish dominance over me!" What does that sound like? A Feminist, specifically a female one.

​IN YO FACE, RICH BURLEW!

Haven't read all the comments yet, don't have time, but just wanted to say this: If V is a feminist, then she does not have a gender. She has a sex, but not a gender. (Also, proves nothing, men can hate masculinity, too. I admit that it only happens rarely, but yeah, we can consider it firmly established that V does not consider herself a member of the masculine gender.)

@littlebum: Belkar wants to find out V's sex. Presumably in order to determine whether he wants to sexually harass V. I don't think Belkar is interested in what gender V identifies with. Why are all those threads named "gender"? We are all adults here, we won't have anyone giggle uncontrollably because someone said "sex" ... or will we?

[Kish]

You don't need to be not-male to acknowledge macho elements in someone's mindset. I would hope everyone who remembers the term "Trouser Titan" recognizes a stereotypically male type of arrogance as part of Roy's character--including the person who gave him and Vaarsuvius those lines, a man named Rich Burlew.

[Draconi Redfir]

You say that like it's a bad thing. With the signal to noise ratio being as small as it is, a "quieter" place might be a better place. This thread strikes me as a data point supporting my thought there.

censoring everything means there is nothing to talk about. may as well not have a forum at all. sounds kind of boring to me.

Personally i think V is female, idk why, she just kinda strikes me that way.

[KorvinStarmast]

censoring everything means there is nothing to talk about. may as well not have a forum at all. sounds kind of boring to me.

Personally i think V is female, idk why, she just kinda strikes me that way.
I said quieter, not silent. And just to make sure we understand each other, popping over to the rules page there is a variety of censored/prohibited speech on this family of forums.
Yet they are not silent.
V is V, and that's good enough for me.

[Knaight]

If V is a feminist, then she does not have a gender. She has a sex, but not a gender.
I'm not entirely sure where this "feminists don't have gender" concept is coming from, but it's not at all accurate.

(Also, proves nothing, men can hate masculinity, too. I admit that it only happens rarely, but yeah, we can consider it firmly established that V does not consider herself a member of the masculine gender.)

In the context of macho BS in particular, distaste is pretty widespread. Roy usually doesn't have much of a macho BS problem (that's more Horace's thing), but it crops up from time to time.

[Liquor Box]

I said quieter, not silent. And just to make sure we understand each other, popping over to the rules page there is a variety of censored/prohibited speech on this family of forums.
Yet they are not silent.
V is V, and that's good enough for me.

Yet, this is not one of them.

In fact, as I mentioned before, the comic deliberately provokes this discussion by making jokes about V's sex in-comic

[Esprit15]

censoring everything means there is nothing to talk about. may as well not have a forum at all. sounds kind of boring to me.

Personally i think V is female, idk why, she just kinda strikes me that way.

And I always thought that V was male. Masculine sounding name (from my experience), most adventuring parties having the one obligatory female character, and the only other female character having visible curve to their body. At this point though, it has long since lost relevance.

On the topic of closing the topic, if we stop saying things just because someone doesn't like them, we would have a very quiet world. I understand that some people find guessing a character or person's sex offensive. We aren't doing it in a mocking manner, we are doing it out of genuine curiosity, and because we don't have the usual means to guess that are helpful (though by no means certain) for guessing. We don't have clear facial structures, pitch or pattern of voice.

[Liquor Box]

I think it speaks volumes that the only person interested in determining Belkar's identity is Belkar. He's not exactly who I would consider to be a good role model. So next time you speculate on V's gender, just remember who you're emulating and consider whether or not that's something you really want to be doing.

None of the myriad of people in this thread speculating on V's sex are intending to emulate Belkar or anyone else. Most are probably of the view that it is obvious that it is inoffensive to speculate as to a cartoon characters sex.

My point was not that Belkar makes jokes about V's sex - it was that the comic strip itself does. I am not really even saying that the Giant (who author's the strip with the jokes about V's sex) is a role model on this point either. I am saying that t5he comic strip invites such discussion, so when discussing the comic strip it is inevitable that this topic will arise. It appears to me that the comic actively provokes it.

For the record though, it is not just Belkar who makes the jokes. In the strip I linked to above it was V himself who was making the joke. This strip suggests all the boys have an interest:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html

There were also the jokes about Roy's sex (which differed from his gender identity at the time) when he used the girdle of femininity.


That's all we were asking for. No one (well, I hope no one) is blaming you for not realizing it was offensive, but once you realize it is offensive, then you're supposed to stop.

You misinterpret me - I do not not realise it was offensive. I still think it is inoffensive - in fact obviously so. However, that a person is being upset by my comments which I think are inoffensive is reason for me not to make them. I do not think others should be chastised for making a different choice though.

I note I said that I wasn't going to discuss V's sex anymore before your most recent rant a few posts back. So I'm not sure why that post was necessary if this was all you were asking for.

That of course does not mean that I will stop debating whether this type of discussion is offensive or not - just like you continue to participate in that discussion.


Well, as I said before, the fact that the only character interested in pegging V's sex is like the 3rd most evil character in the strip should have given you a hint, but still, let's just let it be over.

Except that, as mentioned above, what you said before wasn't accurate.

It seems to me that you are coming from the perspective that it is obvious that it is offensive to discuss V's sex. However, it s clearly not obvious as evidenced by the fact that in this very thread many people (most of them seemingly intelligent) have discussed that very subject (implying that in their view such discussion is not offensive).

If you think the discussion is offensive, you need to put forward some valid reasons for that view, not just repeat that it is obvious. As we have already established (and is illustrated very well by DavidBV in his post) the mere fact that someone or some people take offence does not mean the topic is inherently offensive.

[Liquor Box]

I know someone that lost a daughter to an unfortunate accident with a weapon. So let me ask a question, if she happened to post here that the fact everyone carries weapons openly in the comic reminds her of the weapons issue in the US all the time, and all the threads about guessing what weapon is carrying character X does the same, do you think we should stop talking about weapons altogether?

Or even closer. This comic made me personally suffer once, remembering a tragic experience I lived, with personal guilt mixed in. I won't go into specifics, but yeah, it doesn't get any worse in life than that. Whenever I re-read that part, or is discussed, it comes back to me. In my case, I decide to deal with it, would be entirely valid to simply skip those parts of the comic, and avoid the threads... but I won't make other people be quiet, I don't feel I have the right to do that, although I would if they were mocking the situation, or endorsing it in some way. And I am sure it happens to everyone at some point, and not only with OoTS, but with every piece of complex and long fiction. People has had their families murdered, like Redcloak, or lost family members in wars, and many other horrible things going on and being discussed all the time here. Should we stop discussing *anything* that might potentially hurt anyone? This would become a rather quiet place. Just to give you an idea, I know people that is badly triggered at the "short angry person" stereotype, so there goes half the forum

This is very well put indeed. Much better examples than those I gave.

[littlebum2002]

For the record though, it is not just Belkar who makes the jokes. In the strip I linked to above it was V himself who was making the joke. This strip suggests all the boys have an interest:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html

Wow, that's...not what that strip is about at all.

1) Haley made that comment, not V, and
2) they were eavesdropping because they thought Haley's breasts were being discused/touched

At no point was it ever even implied they were trying to guess V's gender.





You misinterpret me - I do not not realise it was offensive. I still think it is inoffensive - in fact obviously so. However, that a person is being upset by my comments which I think are inoffensive is reason for me not to make them. I do not think others should be chastised for making a different choice though.

I note I said that I wasn't going to discuss V's sex anymore before your most recent rant a few posts back. So I'm not sure why that post was necessary if this was all you were asking for.

That of course does not mean that I will stop debating whether this type of discussion is offensive or not - just like you continue to participate in that discussion.



Except that, as mentioned above, what you said before wasn't accurate.

It seems to me that you are coming from the perspective that it is obvious that it is offensive to discuss V's sex. However, it s clearly not obvious as evidenced by the fact that in this very thread many people (most of them seemingly intelligent) have discussed that very subject (implying that in their view such discussion is not offensive).

If you think the discussion is offensive, you need to put forward some valid reasons for that view, not just repeat that it is obvious. As we have already established (and is illustrated very well by DavidBV in his post) the mere fact that someone or some people take offence does not mean the topic is inherently offensive.

I totally understand where you are coming from here. I mean, I really don't: to me, it's clear as day that trying to peg someone who doesn't want to be pegged is very offensive, and for the life of me I can't understand how someone can't get that. But I totally empathize with your "I really didn't realize it was offensive" statement. This happens a lot to all of us: you say something not realizing it was offensive, then get burned. And since you didn't realize it was offensive, then perhaps my earlier remarks were a bit harsh.

And if you want to know why it is offensive?
V does not want people to know their gender. V makes it clear that their gender is unimportant, and goes through great lengths like turning themself invisible before peeing to not have their gender revealed.
Imagine V is a real human being who has made it clear that they don't want you trying to guess their gender, and you...try to guess their gender. If you can;t understand how "doing the exact opposite of what someone wants you to do" is offensive to that person, I guess I just can't help you.

V has made it clear that their gender is unimportant. So let's not think our view on the matter is more important than the person themself, and respect their wishes in this matter.

Hopefully that helps you understand why it is offensive, and maybe help you from making the same mistake in the future. On a side note, trying to guess ANYONE'S gender is pretty rude.




And I always thought that V was male. Masculine sounding name (from my experience), most adventuring parties having the one obligatory female character, and the only other female character having visible curve to their body. At this point though, it has long since lost relevance.

On the topic of closing the topic, if we stop saying things just because someone doesn't like them, we would have a very quiet world. I understand that some people find guessing a character or person's sex offensive. We aren't doing it in a mocking manner, we are doing it out of genuine curiosity, and because we don't have the usual means to guess that are helpful (though by no means certain) for guessing. We don't have clear facial structures, pitch or pattern of voice.

Read above. And, in addition, do you know WHY it is considered rude to guess someone's gender? Because it's always done with some comment along the line of "this person does X, and men usually do X, so this person is probably male"

Or, the MUCH more offensive "well, there can't possibly be more than one woman in an adventuring party, so they must be male"

[anjxed]

for me if you are offended by a question that is asked nicely and of no malice. It's your own self esteem issue not the askers issue.
I for one am curious of what gender or as it may be the parts of his/her anatomy are.
But I think he's male tho, because in the earlier comics Roy talks to V like a bro. Like "your turn V dawg" in killing Trigak

[Liquor Box]

I totally understand where you are coming from here. I mean, I really don't: to me, it's clear as day that trying to peg someone who doesn't want to be pegged is very offensive, and for the life of me I can't understand how someone can't get that. But I totally empathize with your "I really didn't realize it was offensive" statement. This happens a lot to all of us: you say something not realizing it was offensive, then get burned. And since you didn't realize it was offensive, then perhaps my earlier remarks were a bit harsh.

And if you want to know why it is offensive?
V does not want people to know their gender. V makes it clear that their gender is unimportant, and goes through great lengths like turning themself invisible before peeing to not have their gender revealed.
Imagine V is a real human being who has made it clear that they don't want you trying to guess their gender, and you...try to guess their gender. If you can;t understand how "doing the exact opposite of what someone wants you to do" is offensive to that person, I guess I just can't help you.

V has made it clear that their gender is unimportant. So let's not think our view on the matter is more important than the person themself, and respect their wishes in this matter.

Hopefully that helps you understand why it is offensive, and maybe help you from making the same mistake in the future. On a side note, trying to guess ANYONE'S gender is pretty rude.

Yes, I understand that you think it offensive to guess someone's sex when they don't you to know. I just don't agree.

Just because someone prefer that you not know something about them does not mean it is offensive for you to draw conclusions. I am sure you have on occasion drawn the conclusion that another poster was less intelligent than you. I imagine that other poster (if you were correct) did not want you to "peg" them as stupid, but you did so anyway. Not offensive at all in my opinion (although it may be to say so) - I often draw the same conclusion myself.

V is a comic book character, so he cannot "not want us to know". As already pointed out, this scenario is clearly different from being racist about Roy, because nobody is denigrating V's gender choices.

It is not at all clear that the character would prefer people not to speculate. He may view his sex as unimportant, but there are lots of unimportant details about myself I don't mind people knowing. Actually, the fact that something about myself is unimportant, means I don't mind people knowing.

As to making himself invisible he said he did that to frustrate Belkar, not because of any insecurities about people knowing his sex. If anything that suggests V views speculation about his sex as a bit of a joke rather than something offensive.

Also, I see that you are continuing to suggest that I didn't realise such speculation was offensive, and taking the role of educating me on the point. You even quoted me as saying "I didn't realise it was offensive". This is something i have never said, and in fact i have made the opposite clear on many occasions. To be clear, I completely understand that you think it is offensive. I have all your posts in this thread on the point (I would say all your reasons, but you haven't really given any). I have articulated the reason someone else has given for why they think it was offensive a few posts back. I simply don't agree. I think you are wrong that it is offensive. This is not a case of me not realising something, but the case of an informed person reaching a different conclusion to yourself (actually numerous such people throughout this thread).

At the end of the day I don't think it is offensive at all for people on a forum about a sex-ambiguous cartoon character to speculate about the sex of that comic character, when the comic itself clearly invites such speculation and makes jokes about the sex-ambiguity of the character. I understand some people may be offended by it, but as David pointed out, some people are offended by discussions about weapons - that does not mean it should be accepted as offensive or should not be discussed. I have chosen not to discuss it because one person indicated they were upset by this non-offensive (in my opinion) discussion, but that doesn't mean it wrong for those who wish to go on discussing it to do so.

[littlebum2002]

We don't need to discuss whether it is offensive or not, we already know it is offensive, because we have multiple people telling us they found it offensive. So the only possible positions you have are

"I didn't realize it was offensive"

or

"I realized it was offensive and said it anyway"



I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

[Keltest]

We don't need to discuss whether it is offensive or not, we already know it is offensive, because we have multiple people telling us they found it offensive. So the only possible positions you have are

"I didn't realize it was offensive"

or

"I realized it was offensive and said it anyway"



I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

As has been highlighted above, something does not need to be innately offensive in order for people to take offense to it, and while they likely have perfectly legitimate reasons to feel uncomfortable, it isn't unreasonable to expect them to avoid an otherwise inoffensive conversation that they personally do not like, rather than for everyone else to shut down the conversation.

For my part, I can see how doing it to a real person, to their face, could and would be seen as offensive. That is not what is happening here.

[hroþila]

I don't know if it's offensive. What I do know is that, when dealing with marginalized groups I know very little about, it's usually a good idea to listen to what they have to say, because chances are they see things from a completely different and infinitely more relevant point of view. Circling the wagons and refusing to empathize and to acknowledge how skewed your own personal observations are is not a good idea.

Also, may I point out that a major pet peeve of mine is how people whose point of view is perfectly aligned with the standard one in society at large claim their freedom of speech is being suppressed in debates like this one just because other folks are trying to convince them not to say something, without having the capability (nor the will, usually) to suppress anything whatsoever?

[Liquor Box]

We don't need to discuss whether it is offensive or not, we already know it is offensive, because we have multiple people telling us they found it offensive. So the only possible positions you have are

"I didn't realize it was offensive"

or

"I realized it was offensive and said it anyway"



I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

There is a third possible position (which seems to be the one taken by most people in this thread) - that discussing V's gender is not offensive despite some people thinking that it is.

I can only assume you didn't read the posts where this has been comprehensively addressed, so I will summarise it out again.

That someone found it offensive doesn't mean something is offensive.

David's comments about weapons is IMO, the best example so far. Some people are genuinely offended by discussions about weapons - given that many people know someone (or have themselves) been victim to violence using weapons. But most of us (including you?????) would not refrain from discussing the weapons used in the comic, or weapons used in the gaming system (playing games glorifying the use of weapons probably offends even more people) simply because you "now realize that was offensive" to some people.

My own (inferior) example was bigots being offended by things because of their bigotry.

The answer to both examples(which you have already conceded in the case of the bigots example) , and to the question of gender speculation is that it is not offensive to make a comment merely because some person or people are or might be offended by it. Something more is required before something becomes offensive such that it should be prohibited from conversation.

As noted, it is clear that you agree with this reasoning in some contexts (the bigot context, and I expect the weapons context). But you have given no reasons why you consider the gender speculation context to be different. That being the case, I don't think you are in a position to make judgement on the many intelligent people (which seems to be the majority in this thread) who have a different perspective than your own.

Edit:

I think DavidBV in post 135 of this thread actually set this out very well, so if my answer above is not framed clearly enough that my message comes across, I recommend reading post 135 - at least part of which is written from personal experience.

[littlebum2002]

There is a third possible position (which seems to be the one taken by most people in this thread) - that discussing V's gender is not offensive despite some people thinking that it is.

I can only assume you didn't read the posts where this has been comprehensively addressed, so I will summarise it out again.

That someone found it offensive doesn't mean something is offensive.

Again, whether something is offensive or not is 100% subjective. If someone finds it offensive, then it is offensive.

"I'm offended by that"

-"No you're not"


And this is INFINITELY more true when you are not part of the group who is possibly being offended by what is said. I mean you're basically saying that you have more of a decision in what a genderqueer person finds offensive than a genderqueer person does.

What a genderqueer person believes to be offensive to genderqueer people is a million times more important than what a non-genderqueer person believes to be offensive to genderqueer people.

[anjxed]

So what if a genderqueer person says he isnt offended and another says he is. Is the topic offensive or not?
Not every genderqueer person feels the same about things

[DavidBV]

If someone finds it offensive, then it is offensive.

... to someone.

While there are remarks that are intrinsecally offensive, no matter how you look at them.

For you it is the same thing, I get it. For many others, it isn't. I don't think this discussion will get much further than that.

EDIT: for me, at least, it is enough. I don't think this discussion is in-topic so I'll stay out of it.

[littlebum2002]

... to someone.

While there are remarks that are intrinsecally offensive, no matter how you look at them.

For you it is the same thing, I get it. For many others, it isn't. I don't think this discussion will get much further than that.

Every remark is offensive to some people and inoffensive to others. Regardless of how "intrinsically offensive" you find something, SOMEONE will not be offended by it. So if you define "offensive" as "everyone is offended by it", then nothing is offensive.

[Draconi Redfir]

So what if i were to say Gender politics in general offended me. Would you stop discussing those in that case?:smallconfused:

i mean, i take it upon myself to actively avoid things that confuse, offend, or upset me, so i /could/ just hypotetically not go into threads designed spesifically for discussing gender politics. But if even one person is offended by it then everyone must stop discussing it right?

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Wonder: Ladies and Gentlemen, stick to discussing evidence for or against Vaarsuvius' gender, not modern gender politics. I will be reviewing when I get a chance to see if anyone has strayed into Inappropriate Topics.

[Zmeoaice]

So does V have a hot dog or a taco? Well Let's see:

1. V's eyes are lower than the Average Male but higher than the average female- however I think they're closer to the male's than the females.
2. When V was restored from being a lizard, their body was flat rather than curved. However a team of elves was seen before (at the Azure City Resistance) and they all had flat chests. Though we don't know their gender either.
3. V wanting a room with Haley is not indicative of anything as V and Haley were close friends prior to the start of the comic.

[Kastor]

Y'all are running in circles pecking at each other and getting nowhere. The answer's obvious.

Vaarsuvius is nonbinary, probably agender. Who needs gender when you're mastering the arcane?
They decided to rise above, and so they have. Case closed.

[Draconi Redfir]

That's possible and more then likely true. At this point the thread might need to be changed to "Vaarsuvius' sex guessing", as that's a completely different thing alltogether, you can't just decide what your genetics say about you. Assuming Genetics exist in oots.

[KorvinStarmast]

The answer's obvious.

Vaarsuvius is nonbinary, probably agender. Who needs gender when you're mastering the arcane? They decided to rise above, and so they have. Case closed. Not sure the answer is obvious in that sense.
V's spouse and kids figure into this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0629.html). See the story arc where V has to head home to save spouse and kids from angry black dragon. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0636.html) Some relationship issues (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html) follow that semi heroic event, with serious damage to a marriage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0641.html). (Note that one of the fiends said "he said 'shapechange' when referring to V but that isn't conclusive). Dragon destroyed, marriage is collateral damage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0642.html).

Are you suggesting that elves have no gender and thus use test tubes (or something like that, or some kind of elf magic) to make little elves?

[Draconi Redfir]

to be fair, those kids were addopted anyways.

[KorvinStarmast]

to be fair, those kids were addopted anyways.
I guess I missed that strip/that point, or just forgot it.

[Kish]

Are you suggesting that elves have no gender and thus use test tubes (or something like that, or some kind of elf magic) to make little elves?
There are nonbinary/agender people in the real world (I hope I can point out without it being "modern gender politics"). Some are married; some have children. I don't think Kastor is implying anything about Vaarsuvius being an elf.

[Draconi Redfir]

it was a simple mixup of Sex and Gender. i blame pokemon.

Sex is the raw genetic structure that composes your body, in mammals like us, if you have Y chromosome, you are sexually a male, no ifs, ands, or buts. if you don't, you are sexually female. Gender is more like a software program, it's more fluid, more prone to change, and can sometimes be put in the wrong hardware.

Pokemon made the mistake of labelling pokemon Sex as pokemon Gender because they didn't want to include the word "sex" in their game.

So in this instance, we're not saying this particular elf has no sex, but just doesn't conform to either gender. Barring severe genetic defects, V is more then likely fully capable of procreating normally as whatever sex they physically are.

Apologies, i just felt like i had to clear that up to prevent confusion.

[Astrella]

You're not really right on that though? Sex is both genotype and phenotype (chromosomes, body features, genitals, hormone levels, etc...) and there are a lot of not very clear cases in that. (Intersex people for one, HRT and bottom surgery and such on the other.)

[Shed Some Skin]

Hi all. Looooong time lurker, first time poster. Just read through the thread and wanted to chip in with something that occurred to me. It's probably been mentioned in a prior thread on the subject so apologies if this is not exactly new information or speculation.

So from what we know for sure so far, V has a thus far undefined (to the audience, not necessarily to the character) gender, was married to someone of equally indeterminate gender, with two adopted kids. We also know that some elves (Lirian for sure, possibly also Z, but being a Drow I'm unsure if he really fits my speculation here) do openly define as a definite gender. I appreciate some posters in this thread are fine with assuming that any given character is not necessarily cis unless it's absolutely definitively stated, and that's not something I'm trying to argue with if you choose that as your personal canon.

But I digress. My speculation is somewhat related to another example of a humanoid species from humorous fantasy fiction: Discworld Dwarves. I'd imagine there's more than a few forumgoers in here familiar with Pratchett, but for those who aren't, I'll explain. All Dwarves on the Disc are outwardly male. They all have similar builds, roles in society aren't based around gender, and everyone has a beard and similar fashion sense. Dwarves do have binary biological sexes, and make new Dwarves the standard way, but outwardly, they all define as male. Or slightly more accurately, they all define first and foremost as Dwarves, and culturally the outward aspects of Dwarfishness happen to align with markers of masculinity in humans. Within relationships, it's assumed that everyone just marries the person they marry and then they figure out the rest of it in private.

As it turns out in later novels, there's a growing subculture of female Dwarves that actually want to identify as female. This leads to a bunch of stuff where the social politics of the whole thing fall somewhere between women's suffrage and LGBT rights (probably closer to the latter, since female Dwarves weren't so much discriminated against as culturally nonexistent). Now, here's where I'm trying to draw parallels with what we've seen of Elves in OotS...

Assume Elves have binary biological sex, but no real cultural gender. I've seen a few people mention that in this thread. That's not a crazy idea. So how do we explain Lirian? Well, what if Elves that identify as a specific gender are the Elf equivalent of female Discworld Dwarves? Or even human LGBT people? Some of them simply were born identifying a particular way. Or perhaps they fall in love with someone from a species that does, and then accept the markers of their biological sex to make their partner happy and it doesn't really bother them either way since they don't have any real cultural hangups about it. "oh, you humans are into these things? Aren't they just lumps of fat? I've always found them rather inconvenient, myself. But of course, I'll wear that low cut top if it amuses you".

Discworld Dwarves aren't a perfect analogy here, since there's zero evidence for there being any kind of animosity towards gender-identifying Elves even if we choose to accept a fundamentally genderless Elf culture in general. But I like the idea that Elves are something a little bit culturally distinct from humans in a way other than just having pointy ears, and it would go a long way towards explaining V's attitudes. S/he doesn't really care or particularly consider it, beyond the fact that not knowing annoys Belkar, and it also explains Lirian's apparent female identification in a way that I would hope would please more people than us having to accept a single answer for both.

z, and the cultural norms of Drow, I will leave up to others to decide :)

[Draconi Redfir]

You're not really right on that though? Sex is both genotype and phenotype (chromosomes, body features, genitals, hormone levels, etc...) and there are a lot of not very clear cases in that. (Intersex people for one, HRT and bottom surgery and such on the other.)

Changes made after you are born do not affect your genes, surgeries and hormones alter your appearance, but not your genes.

And since in my specific post i was referring to genetic sex, as far as I’m aware Genetics are the only thing that apply to genetic Sex, which does not change due to post-birth changes. (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/genetic+sex)

[DavidBV]

Hi all. Looooong time lurker, first time poster. Just read through the thread and wanted to chip in with something that occurred to me. It's probably been mentioned in a prior thread on the subject so apologies if this is not exactly new information or speculation.

So from what we know for sure so far, V has a thus far undefined (to the audience, not necessarily to the character) gender, was married to someone of equally indeterminate gender, with two adopted kids. We also know that some elves (Lirian for sure, possibly also Z, but being a Drow I'm unsure if he really fits my speculation here) do openly define as a definite gender. I appreciate some posters in this thread are fine with assuming that any given character is not necessarily cis unless it's absolutely definitively stated, and that's not something I'm trying to argue with if you choose that as your personal canon.

But I digress. My speculation is somewhat related to another example of a humanoid species from humorous fantasy fiction: Discworld Dwarves. I'd imagine there's more than a few forumgoers in here familiar with Pratchett, but for those who aren't, I'll explain. All Dwarves on the Disc are outwardly male. They all have similar builds, roles in society aren't based around gender, and everyone has a beard and similar fashion sense. Dwarves do have binary biological sexes, and make new Dwarves the standard way, but outwardly, they all define as male. Or slightly more accurately, they all define first and foremost as Dwarves, and culturally the outward aspects of Dwarfishness happen to align with markers of masculinity in humans. Within relationships, it's assumed that everyone just marries the person they marry and then they figure out the rest of it in private.

As it turns out in later novels, there's a growing subculture of female Dwarves that actually want to identify as female. This leads to a bunch of stuff where the social politics of the whole thing fall somewhere between women's suffrage and LGBT rights (probably closer to the latter, since female Dwarves weren't so much discriminated against as culturally nonexistent). Now, here's where I'm trying to draw parallels with what we've seen of Elves in OotS...

Assume Elves have binary biological sex, but no real cultural gender. I've seen a few people mention that in this thread. That's not a crazy idea. So how do we explain Lirian? Well, what if Elves that identify as a specific gender are the Elf equivalent of female Discworld Dwarves? Or even human LGBT people? Some of them simply were born identifying a particular way. Or perhaps they fall in love with someone from a species that does, and then accept the markers of their biological sex to make their partner happy and it doesn't really bother them either way since they don't have any real cultural hangups about it. "oh, you humans are into these things? Aren't they just lumps of fat? I've always found them rather inconvenient, myself. But of course, I'll wear that low cut top if it amuses you".

Discworld Dwarves aren't a perfect analogy here, since there's zero evidence for there being any kind of animosity towards gender-identifying Elves even if we choose to accept a fundamentally genderless Elf culture in general. But I like the idea that Elves are something a little bit culturally distinct from humans in a way other than just having pointy ears, and it would go a long way towards explaining V's attitudes. S/he doesn't really care or particularly consider it, beyond the fact that not knowing annoys Belkar, and it also explains Lirian's apparent female identification in a way that I would hope would please more people than us having to accept a single answer for both.

z, and the cultural norms of Drow, I will leave up to others to decide :)

While your theory is interesting, I think this is unlikely to be the answer. I can't remember where I did read it, but I think Rich explained once, long ago, that when he drew the character on the early days, he was kind of surprised at how some of his friends were sure V was male, and others were sure V was female. He also said (unless my memory fails) that what V was, was very clear in his mind. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I can't find it in the quotes thread, but I'm fairly sure I'm not making it up.

So whatever is the answer, it must be... reasonably simple. Male, female, hermaphrodite, asexual, or anything else, but from what I remember of his explanation, if it takes three paragraphs to explain, I don't see him devising it, considering how was the comic back then: a light-hearted and humorous parody of D&D adventuring. I don't think he worked such settings details as elven cultural genders, back then.

[Liquor Box]

While your theory is interesting, I think this is unlikely to be the answer. I can't remember where I did read it, but I think Rich explained once, long ago, that when he drew the character on the early days, he was kind of surprised at how some of his friends were sure V was male, and others were sure V was female. He also said (unless my memory fails) that what V was, was very clear in his mind. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I can't find it in the quotes thread, but I'm fairly sure I'm not making it up.

So whatever is the answer, it must be... reasonably simple. Male, female, hermaphrodite, asexual, or anything else, but from what I remember of his explanation, if it takes three paragraphs to explain, I don't see him devising it, considering how was the comic back then: a light-hearted and humorous parody of D&D adventuring. I don't think he worked such settings details as elven cultural genders, back then.

I'm sure that's right. The Giant said that he had not originally intended V's sex or gender to be ambiguous. It was only when a friend asked him what V's sex was that it occurred to the Giant that it wasn't obvious to most people.

The Giant then decided to obfuscate V's sex/gender to keep people guessing. He did a quick straw poll of the forum he was in at the time and found out that most people thought V was female. In the next strip the Giant had Roy refer to V as "V-man" to counter the prevailing opinion that V was female. He has since presented other obfuscating information to keep it ambiguous.

It has also been established earlier in this thread that the Giant has said that V is genderqueer.

So what we know is this:
- V's gender identity is genderqueer
- The Giant has decided on V's sex (and had from the start), but is deliberately keeping that ambiguous.

The rest is all speculation. And any speculation based on hints from the strip (or at least from about the 10th strip on) is likely to be unreliable because the Giant deliberately put obfuscating information in there.

Edit

[KorvinStarmast]

So what we know is this:
- V's gender identity is genderfluid
- The Giant has decided on V's sex (and had from the start), but is deliberately keeping that ambiguous.

The rest is all speculation. And any speculation based on hints from the strip (or at least from about the 10th strip on) is likely to be unreliable because the Giant deliberately put obfuscating information in there. Trying to see how this post can offend someone. Not seeing it. So ... good job. :smallbiggrin:

[martianmister]

I always see him as a female.

[littlebum2002]

It seems pretty obvious. V is a very logical person, and not very emotional, therefore V must me male

[martianmister]

It seems pretty obvious. V is a very logical person, and not very emotional, therefore V must me male

You're completely wrong. It's common knowledge that females uses their heads while males uses their muscles. :smallyuk:

[Vinyadan]

Trying to see how this post can offend someone. Not seeing it. So ... good job. :smallbiggrin:

I'll pop in and say that I am thoroughly offended and dismayed by how the here named post mixed up on the only valid information we have: it's genderqueer, not genderfluid :smalltongue: Or it's referring to something I haven't read yet.:smallcool:

[littlebum2002]

You're completely wrong. It's common knowledge that females uses their heads while males uses their muscles. :smallyuk:

Men are more likely to be in the Math and Science fields than women, and magic is as close to science as we're going to get in d&d, so statistically V is male.

In addition, V is known for employing logic rather than emotion, and women are more known for using emotion, so that's more evidence that V is male.

[DavidBV]

- V's gender identity is genderqueer

I read the BRiTF commentary and... I'm not quite sure you can actually call it evidence. The Giant is kind of talking from Tarquin's PoV about the Order in that sentence.

[Liquor Box]

I read the BRiTF commentary and... I'm not quite sure you can actually call it evidence. The Giant is kind of talking from Tarquin's PoV about the Order in that sentence.

Fair enough, then at the very least it is a strong indication.

[acire]

Clearly elves have eldritch abominations in their pants that only elves can handle the sight of; other races have to roll a saving throw upon meeting an elf to not become obsessed with discovering the shape of that elf's genitals. V casts invisibility when peeing so that Belkar's mind wil not be torn asunder by the sight of hir unfathomable genitalia. Lirian and Dorukan were only able to have sex in the light through Epic level magic. Half-elves who are the product of a human and an elf rather than two half-elves are usually conceived in magical darkness to protect their human parents.

Don't peek under V's robes; you can't handle the truth.

[Aedilred]

Clearly elves have eldritch abominations in their pants that only elves can handle the sight of; other races have to roll a saving throw upon meeting an elf to not become obsessed with discovering the shape of that elf's genitals. V casts invisibility when peeing so that Belkar's mind wil not be torn asunder by the sight of hir unfathomable genitalia. Lirian and Dorukan were only able to have sex in the light through Epic level magic. Half-elves who are the product of a human and an elf rather than two half-elves are usually conceived in magical darkness to protect their human parents.

Don't peek under V's robes; you can't handle the truth.

You jest, but while it's not part of the continuity, something similar (http://www.giantitp.com/Images/GuestWeek2005/oots9901.gif) has made it onto the site...

[Themrys]

it was a simple mixup of Sex and Gender. i blame pokemon.

Sex is the raw genetic structure that composes your body, in mammals like us, if you have Y chromosome, you are sexually a male, no ifs, ands, or buts. if you don't, you are sexually female. Gender is more like a software program, it's more fluid, more prone to change, and can sometimes be put in the wrong hardware.

Pokemon made the mistake of labelling pokemon Sex as pokemon Gender because they didn't want to include the word "sex" in their game.

So in this instance, we're not saying this particular elf has no sex, but just doesn't conform to either gender. Barring severe genetic defects, V is more then likely fully capable of procreating normally as whatever sex they physically are.

Apologies, i just felt like i had to clear that up to prevent confusion.

Not kidding? It really was Pokemon, of all things, that caused this annoying misperception so, so, so many people have about sex and gender?

Wow.

Though I would hope that most people at least knew the correct word use, even though they are using it wrong. There is no need to discuss V's gender, V does not have a gender.

V has a sex, and most "evidence" people use to determine V's gender (which V pretty obviously does not have) is completely useless for figuring out V's sex.

Since the author does not want V's sex revealed, it is very unlikely that we will ever find out.

We could assume that V is male as V never complained about having month-long periods every couple of years or so, but since we don't know whether female elves have periods, this is no solid proof, either.

[Vinyadan]

Not kidding? It really was Pokemon, of all things, that caused this annoying misperception so, so, so many people have about sex and gender?


I am actually pretty sure that it was the opposite - gender and sex have been used as interchangeable for a long time, with gender and sex theorists introducing in recent times the distinction you people refer to in their scientific field. When the pop version of gender theories spread, this became (to some) the correct meaning. In truth, gender and sex are still interchangeable, if you aren't talking about gender theories, just as you can call green beans vegetables, if you aren't talking about botanic, in which case they are fruits. The fact that there is an ideological battle going on about the concepts represented by these terms makes it much more likely that someone will correct you, however.

"Sex" and "gender" as "the males" or "the females" opposed to each other are used since the 15th century. "Sex" as "a single person's sex" is used since the 16th. "Sex" as "sexual act" is from the beginning of the 20th century, at which point "gender" began to be used to refer to an individual's sex. Gender was used for both biological and social attributes since 1963. No idea of when the use of gender was supposed to become exclusive of mental constructs, which it actually hasn't yet: there's a lot of overlapping.

[Draconi Redfir]

H'uh. I did not know that. I learned today!:smallbiggrin:

[Liquor Box]

I'll pop in and say that I am thoroughly offended and dismayed by how the here named post mixed up on the only valid information we have: it's genderqueer, not genderfluid :smalltongue: Or it's referring to something I haven't read yet.:smallcool:

Nope, you offence is well placed - I just used the wrong word. I will change it.