Favorite Builds without Power Attack?

[Jeebs]

I like to play Martials, but I'm definitely starting to get -5/+10 fatigue with Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter.

I've planned out Rogues I really like, I think I could have fun as a Monk, and I almost took Polearm Master instead of Great Weapon Master on my Vengeance Paladin. But even most of my Bladelock and Valor Bard builds end up with GWM.

I know the Power Attack mechanic is too good to pass up in a lot of cases, but I was curious to hear about some of your favorite (Martial or Gish) builds that don't incorporate it.

I'd also love to hear the experiences of people who've felt like their characters shine, even in a game with a Sharpshooter or GWM. The game I'm DMing features a more experienced player who's playing a Battlemaster Fighter with Lucky and Sharpshooter, making it a bit tougher for me to keep others in the spotlight during combat.

[bid]

Barbrogue for the Str finesse.
- 3 attacks, or 2 attacks and a shove (shield master)
- elk movement for swashbuckler


Sorcerogue for twin BB cheese.


I've thought of dumping Wis on a monk and using draconic resilience or armor of shadow to compensate. That could make an interesting gish.

[Gtdead]

Any non martial + sorc multiclass with booming blade. It's extremely potent. By lvl 11, booming blade is strictly better than power attack and sorceror allows for a second attack per turn. You can also add power attack the build but I think it's not worth it.

[CaptAl]

I'm running a Bladesinger 5/Rogue 2 in OotA now. With Haste, Bladesong, and Warcaster I've got a Booming Blade attack and a Haste Attack which enables my two weapon bonus action attack. Sneak attack is just about guaranteed every round with 3 attacks and my AC is through the roof. I can't out damage the action surging sharpshooter. But I can tank, cast rituals, fall back to standard wizarding if necessary, and do respectable damage all while sneaking about

[Jeebs]

Barbrogue for the Str finesse.
- 3 attacks, or 2 attacks and a shove (shield master)
- elk movement for swashbuckler

My next character will probably be a Half-Orc or Variant Human Barbarian 2/Rogue 18. I love Reckless Attack+Sneak Attack. Plus I'd do my best to get the most out of Unarmored Defense (tons of CON) and maybe even take Sentinel for big Reaction Sneak Attacks. An unorthodox tank, but it would be super satisfying.


Any non martial + sorc multiclass with booming blade. It's extremely potent. By lvl 11, booming blade is strictly better than power attack and sorceror allows for a second attack per turn. You can also add power attack the build but I think it's not worth it.

I'm hesistant to use/allow the SCAG cantrips, cuz it seems like they're so good that you'll get the same problem as GWM/Sharpshooter (most builds center around them), but now that I think about it, that's awfully silly, because it's just another competitive option.

I like Magic Initiate a lot for Paladins -- Shield, a ranged attack cantrip, and Light for those that don't have Darkvision. If this competes well with GWM, I could just pick a different race and drop Light for Booming Blade. Would it work as well to just go Paladin 20 with Magic Initiate? Or does it hinge on Quickened Spell?


I'm running a Bladesinger 5/Rogue 2 in OotA now. With Haste, Bladesong, and Warcaster I've got a Booming Blade attack and a Haste Attack which enables my two weapon bonus action attack. Sneak attack is just about guaranteed every round with 3 attacks and my AC is through the roof. I can't out damage the action surging sharpshooter. But I can tank, cast rituals, fall back to standard wizarding if necessary, and do respectable damage all while sneaking about

I think it'll be a while before I can really use anything from SCAG, but Bladesinger might be the perfect class for me. I like playing more of a Support character, but I get bored if I can't mix it up in melee. Valor Bard with Shield Master or some other feat could be really fun too.

It's been cool to see people arguing that Tough is pretty key for Bladesingers, because before that it wasn't a feat I looked at much -- other than something like Hill Dwarf Barbarian with 20 CON and Tough for max HP.

[TheRedTemplar]

I know the Power Attack mechanic is too good to pass up in a lot of cases, but I was curious to hear about some of your favorite (Martial or Gish) builds that don't incorporate it.

I'd also love to hear the experiences of people who've felt like their characters shine, even in a game with a Sharpshooter or GWM. The game I'm DMing features a more experienced player who's playing a Battlemaster Fighter with Lucky and Sharpshooter, making it a bit tougher for me to keep others in the spotlight during combat.

Honestly, I've never used the Power Attack mechanic: to me everyone else was already using it, and it felt too generic and easy for me. My favorite build tend to be ones that are versatile and highly fun, for me my most successful one is my Paladorc (Devotion/Storm). It's extremely versatile and widely applicable to a lot of situations, has high mobility and nullifies two crippling status effects, has a good deal of damage resistance/avoidance, incredibly hard to kill, great saves and damage, etc. I personally use the Sword and Board fighting style for maximum AC while also providing good CQC tricks, although I can always use spells to help out if I need too (Quickened GFB/BB, Fireball, Lightning Bolt and Thunderwave, for a few). In my opinion, it's the ultimate Gish build and comes online extremely early, and it's amazingly fun to play through it's entirety.

On the topic of my character however...we also have an Archer with Lucky and Sharpshooter in my group, and yet I managed to outshine HIM in the DPS department. My character (through versatility, tactics, encounters with magic items, power, roleplaying and just sheer luck) ended up somehow being a One Man Army, which I honestly didn't intend: even I was surprised when he actually killed an army by himself (for the record, they were all suits of Animated Armor, and the party left him to fight them alone). At this rate, he's killed (in order of appearance):


- 500 Koa-Toa and 6 Driders
- A Succubus Queen and her Guard
- A Duo of Two-Headed Stone Giants
- One Ancient Red Dragon
- A Fiendlock Green Half-Dragon (GWM user)
- 30 Suits of Animated Armor controlled by Ogremoch's Bane
- Ogremoch's Bane
- A squad of Drow Slavers, with four Guards, two Elite Warriors, a Priestess, a Mage, and a Yochlol
- A Ghostly Elf Ranger flanked by Banshees
- An squad of Fire Giants and Azers
- Zuggtmoy and her posse
- An army of Water Cultists
- A Adult Bronze Shadow Dragon
- Jubilex and his posse
- A Fire-Giant Priestess with Cambion Guard
- Orcus and his posse
- A Mummy Lord with an army of Ghost Warriors
- A Drow Vampire Priestess with a Drider Guard
- 'Mommy'
- Graz'zt and his posse



There's a story behind all of those, I can assure you. He's done more, but those are the most noteworthy encounters he's partaken in. I yearn for the day I can play him at a convention, especially an epic (believe it or not, he is indeed AL Legal).

[ShikomeKidoMi]

When you're tired of power attack, you can always play a barbarian/rogue grappler with crazy Athletics.

[Kane0]

Trade the -5/+10 for a +1 str/dex. Our group likes it.

[Giant2005]

Warlock 2/EK 7/ Rogue (Any variety) 11 is pretty awesome.

[Addaran]

I play a battlemaster gnome with duelist (shield and rapier) and i don't have problem staying revelant. Most people think i do great damage (min 7 from lvl 1), even when i use my darts (.... you do 9 damage with a dart? O.o)
We have a half-orc barbarian and an arcane trickster in the team and i do very similar damage to them, specialy if you take in account the few superiority dice and action surge. (none of us have Sharpshooter or GWM)

[CaptAl]

I think it'll be a while before I can really use anything from SCAG, but Bladesinger might be the perfect class for me. I like playing more of a Support character, but I get bored if I can't mix it up in melee. Valor Bard with Shield Master or some other feat could be really fun too.

It's been cool to see people arguing that Tough is pretty key for Bladesingers, because before that it wasn't a feat I looked at much -- other than something like Hill Dwarf Barbarian with 20 CON and Tough for max HP.

Tough really helps shore up that HP weakness. But so does Haste with advantage on DEX saves, resilient CON, and resilient DEX. I usually play mine as a skirmisher. I don't get hit with AOE any more than a smart rogue/monk.

A Valor Bard with Shield Master is pretty sweet too. The ultimate melee support guy. A totem barbarian taking Wolf can do similar things while making a solid off tank as well.

[Socratov]

I knwo I'm gonna get some flak for this, but I'm gonna suggest a fighter 2/Assassin rogue 18 dual wielding rapiers.

Step one, gain action surge & TWF fighting style, then go into assassin rogue to get loads of sneak attack and the autocrit option. at lvl 6 get dualwield feat, lvl 10 get Altert feat, rest into dex points (+4 dex should get you to 20 on a 14 starting ability and +2 dex race)

Step 1: hide
Step 2: roll insane initiative (should be 11 at the very least)
Step 3: attack surprised target (advantage!)
Step 4: Crit shish kebab with assassin ability (3d8+9d6+15, critted)
Step 5: Use action surge to repeat steps 3 and 4, (At advantage because enemy hasn't reacted to you yet, 3d8+9d6+15, if enemy is still considered surpirsed, critted)
Step 6:??? (loads of damage rolled, on average 6d8+18d6+30 will make 187.5 dmg on average.)
Step 7a: loot the body for profit!
Step 7b: if more enemies present, use cunning action to hide. Goto step 1.

I call it the Ezio.

[spartan_ah]

I'm beginning to like the sorbucler.
you take 1st level of dragon sorcerer, for the CON saves, half elf or human variant to compensate for skills and then continue as a rogue. you get the cantrips from scag and shield. high dex and evasion compensate for the DEX saves. you get a high AC, and you can hace a mage slayer feat for advantage on saves. and all the swash goodies...
seems to me pretty solid...

[RickAllison]

I knwo I'm gonna get some flak for this, but I'm gonna suggest a fighter 2/Assassin rogue 18 dual wielding rapiers.

Step one, gain action surge & TWF fighting style, then go into assassin rogue to get loads of sneak attack and the autocrit option. at lvl 6 get dualwield feat, lvl 10 get Altert feat, rest into dex points (+4 dex should get you to 20 on a 14 starting ability and +2 dex race)

Step 1: hide
Step 2: roll insane initiative (should be 11 at the very least)
Step 3: attack surprised target (advantage!)
Step 4: Crit shish kebab with assassin ability (3d8+9d6+15, critted)
Step 5: Use action surge to repeat steps 3 and 4, (At advantage because enemy hasn't reacted to you yet, 3d8+9d6+15, if enemy is still considered surpirsed, critted)
Step 6:??? (loads of damage rolled, on average 6d8+18d6+30 will make 187.5 dmg on average.)
Step 7a: loot the body for profit!
Step 7b: if more enemies present, use cunning action to hide. Goto step 1.

I call it the Ezio.

A key problem you're forgetting is that Sneak Attack can only be used once per turn.

[Trampaige]

I like Magic Initiate a lot for Paladins -- Shield, a ranged attack cantrip, and Light for those that don't have Darkvision. If this competes well with GWM, I could just pick a different race and drop Light for Booming Blade. Would it work as well to just go Paladin 20 with Magic Initiate? Or does it hinge on Quickened Spell?


I hope people remember that Magic Initiate's lvl1 spell (shield in this case) is once per long rest.

[Socratov]

A key problem you're forgetting is that Sneak Attack can only be used once per turn.

I was under the impression that action surge gave you a second turn to use for attacks

[RickAllison]

I was under the impression that action surge gave you a second turn to use for attacks

No, it gives you another action. That does not over-rule the limitation on one Sneak Attack per turn. That being, and this comes from someone unfamiliar with the readied action rules so correct me if I'm wrong, one could ready the Action Surge action to attack on a trigger in order to get the SA again.

[bid]

I'm beginning to like the sorbucler.
you take 1st level of dragon sorcerer, for the CON saves, half elf or human variant to compensate for skills and then continue as a rogue. you get the cantrips from scag and shield. high dex and evasion compensate for the DEX saves. you get a high AC, and you can hace a mage slayer feat for advantage on saves. and all the swash goodies...
seems to me pretty solid...
You won't have access to shortsword and rapier, so you're down to dagger. That weakens the twin BB cheese.

[Saggo]

No, it gives you another action. That does not over-rule the limitation on one Sneak Attack per turn. That being, and this comes from someone unfamiliar with the readied action rules so correct me if I'm wrong, one could ready the Action Surge action to attack on a trigger in order to get the SA again.

That would work. Sneak Attack is once per turn, not just once per your turn. You may have readied on your turn, but it's using your reaction on the next turn, no different than an attack of opportunity.

[Socratov]

No, it gives you another action. That does not over-rule the limitation on one Sneak Attack per turn. That being, and this comes from someone unfamiliar with the readied action rules so correct me if I'm wrong, one could ready the Action Surge action to attack on a trigger in order to get the SA again.

still, if I use the crits right you are still looking at (after adding crits for both attacks, ans assuming my DM is right when he doubles bonus dice on crits) a total of 12d8+18d6+30, which still equates to murder-death in a lot of cases. Then cunning action into hiding again.

Oh, and can we get a definite definition of what the surprised part means of the assassin's ability?

[RickAllison]

still, if I use the crits right you are still looking at (after adding crits for both attacks, ans assuming my DM is right when he doubles bonus dice on crits) a total of 12d8+18d6+30, which still equates to murder-death in a lot of cases. Then cunning action into hiding again.

Oh, and can we get a definite definition of what the surprised part means of the assassin's ability?

Well, let's look back at your numbers. The 18d6 is correct. Since you only have two levels in fighter, you wouldn't have extra attack. That gives you three attacks from your rapiers total, for 2d8+5 each (one from action, one from action surge, and one from your bonus action). That gives you an actual damage of 6d8+18d6+15, or 105 damage on average. That is in contrast to your numbers which would give 147 on average.

EDIT: Also, remember that if you get the third attack, you can't use Cunning Action since that takes a bonus action. As well, surprise can only be gained at the beginning of the round, so after the first you would only have a maximum of 3d8+9d6+15 or 60 if you can get sneak attack.

[Socratov]

Well, let's look back at your numbers. The 18d6 is correct. Since you only have two levels in fighter, you wouldn't have extra attack. That gives you three attacks from your rapiers total, for 2d8+5 each (one from action, one from action surge, and one from your bonus action). That gives you an actual damage of 6d8+18d6+15, or 105 damage on average. That is in contrast to your numbers which would give 147 on average.

EDIT: Also, remember that if you get the third attack, you can't use Cunning Action since that takes a bonus action. As well, surprise can only be gained at the beginning of the round, so after the first you would only have a maximum of 3d8+9d6+15 or 60 if you can get sneak attack.

Ah, forgot about the extra attack thingie... I think it's still a great number to hit though...

[RickAllison]

Ah, forgot about the extra attack thingie... I think it's still a great number to hit though...

Quite respectable. Although it won't hold up as well for dungeoneering with multiple, entrenched, and humongous enemies, it is a fantastic build for assassination, which... Well do I really have to explain that? It's in the name :smallbiggrin:

[Socratov]

Quite respectable. Although it won't hold up as well for dungeoneering with multiple, entrenched, and humongous enemies, it is a fantastic build for assassination, which... Well do I really have to explain that? It's in the name :smallbiggrin:

Well, there is a reason I called him the Ezio. And still when he hides well enough he always gets advantage, and thus SA. And he hides on a bonus action through cunning action :smallbiggrin:

[mgshamster]

Honestly, I've never used the Power Attack mechanic: to me everyone else was already using it, and it felt too generic and easy for me. My favorite build tend to be ones that are versatile and highly fun, for me my most successful one is my Paladorc (Devotion/Storm). It's extremely versatile and widely applicable to a lot of situations, has high mobility and nullifies two crippling status effects, has a good deal of damage resistance/avoidance, incredibly hard to kill, great saves and damage, etc. I personally use the Sword and Board fighting style for maximum AC while also providing good CQC tricks, although I can always use spells to help out if I need too (Quickened GFB/BB, Fireball, Lightning Bolt and Thunderwave, for a few). In my opinion, it's the ultimate Gish build and comes online extremely early, and it's amazingly fun to play through it's entirety.

On the topic of my character however...we also have an Archer with Lucky and Sharpshooter in my group, and yet I managed to outshine HIM in the DPS department. My character (through versatility, tactics, encounters with magic items, power, roleplaying and just sheer luck) ended up somehow being a One Man Army, which I honestly didn't intend: even I was surprised when he actually killed an army by himself (for the record, they were all suits of Animated Armor, and the party left him to fight them alone). At this rate, he's killed (in order of appearance):


- 500 Koa-Toa and 6 Driders
- A Succubus Queen and her Guard
- A Duo of Two-Headed Stone Giants
- One Ancient Red Dragon
- A Fiendlock Green Half-Dragon (GWM user)
- 30 Suits of Animated Armor controlled by Ogremoch's Bane
- Ogremoch's Bane
- A squad of Drow Slavers, with four Guards, two Elite Warriors, a Priestess, a Mage, and a Yochlol
- A Ghostly Elf Ranger flanked by Banshees
- An squad of Fire Giants and Azers
- Zuggtmoy and her posse
- An army of Water Cultists
- A Adult Bronze Shadow Dragon
- Jubilex and his posse
- A Fire-Giant Priestess with Cambion Guard
- Orcus and his posse
- A Mummy Lord with an army of Ghost Warriors
- A Drow Vampire Priestess with a Drider Guard
- 'Mommy'
- Graz'zt and his posse



There's a story behind all of those, I can assure you. He's done more, but those are the most noteworthy encounters he's partaken in. I yearn for the day I can play him at a convention, especially an epic (believe it or not, he is indeed AL Legal).

What level were you during all that? And what kind of experience does your GM have? Given the level range in OotA, I sincerely doubt you took on Zuggtmoy or any of the demon lords head to head.The weakest demon lord is CR 23 and the highest level in OotA is 16. Heck, a single one of those two-headed stone giants nearly TPKd my entire party at level 4 (you face those giants somewhere between level 4-6, and I don't even see a party of 6 being able to face them easily; you're supposed to have a lot of help from the NPCs in that battle).

Even against 500 kuo-tao, I doubt it. With 1 in 20 attacks doing a crit (assuming each gets at least one attack), you should have taken somewhere around 100-140 damage from crits alone. The only time in the campaign you'd potentially face that many is in the first half of the campaign, meaning you're no higher than level 6. They should have TPKd you.

Either your GM was going on easy mode or you faced those encounters at a significantly higher level than expected. There's just no class combo that's that good in this game.

Edit: you said "in order of appearance." Meaning you faced those 500 Kuo-Toa at level 4. And you faced an Adult Red Dragon at level 5! There's no way it was due to your character build. It's breath weapon alone should have incinerated you at that level.

[JumboWheat01]

I can't say I've ever built a character with either of those abilities planned. But, then again, I tend to make sword-and-board characters over two-handed. And my one ranged character so far, a rogue, needs all the accuracy he can get, and makes up for the lack of bonus damage thanks to sneak attack, so he's not reliant on the feat at all.

[TheRedTemplar]

What level were you during all that? And what kind of experience does your GM have? Given the level range in OotA, I sincerely doubt you took on Zuggtmoy or any of the demon lords head to head.The weakest demon lord is CR 23 and the highest level in OotA is 16. Heck, a single one of those two-headed stone giants nearly TPKd my entire party at level 4 (you face those giants somewhere between level 4-6, and I don't even see a party of 6 being able to face them easily; you're supposed to have a lot of help from the NPCs in that battle).

Well I never said I went at them alone, I obviously had my party to back me up (The rest of my party consists of a Moon Druid, a Ranger with Sharpshooter, a Oath of Ancients Halfling Paladin, a Champion T-W-Fighter, a Life Cleric, and a Oath of Vengeance GWF Paladin). Also the dragon was at level 6, not 5 :P. Regardless, me and my party are exceptionally powerful and crafty:

-The Kuo-Toa and Driders were killed by blowing up the entire town they were in (we snuck in while they were asleep, and then quite a few oil barrels and a necklace of fireballs with 9 beads later, and we nuked that place to the abyss and back).

-During the combat with the succubus queen (just a succubus, but she was seducing a duergar king to be her 'hubby'), I was level 5. I killed her during the surprise round with just two hits and plenty of smites, before we cured the king's insanity. The 'guard' were pacified except for one, and the fighter killed him in one round by going nova (TWF + Magic Warhammers + Champion Path + Flanking + Action Surge = 2 hits, 3 crits = pain).

-The stone giants were trashed by the party after we took a long rest (me and the fighter annihilated one, the rest of the party shot down the other. The guard's didn't even get a turn). I don't see how you could have trouble with this encounter unless you roll really poorly on initiative or on attack/damage rolls (Thunderwave helped out a bunch, though).

-Special mentions goes to Themberchaud, the Ancient Red Dragon: he actually did use his breath weapon and magma geyser lair action. Wouldn't you know it, he killed everyone in the party but me (I'm resistant to fire), the fighter (who was out of the AoE), the other pally (who was climbing the dragon), and the Giant Constrictor Snake/GCS (who was my paladin mount and currently off to the side). The DM specifically mentioned their bodies were 'charred and burnt', but not ash (he said that we could raise them from the dead if they were willing to accept a 'horrible scar' penalty), and the Moon Druid was still in stabilizing range due to his Temp-HP from Wild Shape (he was at -9 and making death saves IIRC). My improvised plan went as follows:

1) During the Surprise Round when we caught Themberchaud off-guard (he didn't expect us to suddenly start shooting/smiting him in the midst of giving him the Red Dragon Egg, after all) we dealt around 150~ total damage from going nova, power attacks, smiting and buffing.
2) After he used his breath weapon, I decided to Misty Step off to the Temple's Priest (the DM has specified earlier he was a possible source for spellcasting services, when we had asked) and convince him that the dragon had destroyed the egg and gone insane from the succubus that tainted the king's mind earlier (because my character had personally saved the king and was the party member most-liked by the duergar [along with the amount of 'evidence' I'd created to back this up], he made the check with advantage, and passed with flying colors [the check was DC: 20, FYI]).
3) I then payed the priest out of pocket to stabilize and heal the Moon Druid, who then agreed to help me out with my plan.
4) At this point my GCS had hit Themberchaud, Grappling and Restraining it, while the OoA Paladin knocked it prone with Thunderous Smite (The GCS made the save, thankfully). The Fighter then proceeded to wail on this thing with as much as he could, getting four crits due to advantage and his extended crit range! Since he'd just used his magma geyser lair action, he wouldn't be able to use it next turn.
5) I sounded the alarm and organized the Stoneguard into a army, giving off an inspiring speech of how we must protect the kingdom from the Dragon at all costs, with the Druid (now a Cave Bear) acting as my mount. Got a natural 20 on the performance check. The army's morale was high and ready to mobilize.
6) At the start of the next round, Themberchaud managed to roll pretty poorly on his damage, leaving my GCS mangled but still alive at 4 hit points. His attempt to knock us prone with his tremor lair action also failed. I then charged in on the Moon Druid with a army of 100 Enlarged Stone Guards behind me.
7) The DM informs me he doesn't want to roll that much dice, so we (eventually) agree that the Stoneguards will deal a net worth of 40 damage each round from hits and misses from each (there are 100 of these guys after all, and they are enlarged).
8) The party then does about 200~ damage to him from crits, power attacks, smites and Stoneguard backup.
9) Themberchaud finally rips the GCS's head off and gets free of his conditions, before flying around the room and clawing/biting the OoA Paladin into ribbions (rest in spaghetti, never forgetti) and dumping magma on the ranger. The Druid then uses another use of Wild Shape to morph from a Cave Bear into a Giant Constrictor Snake, and hits it with Constrict, giving us all advantage again.
10) Using the last of our readied abilities, spellslots and smites, we do our best to channel out as much damage as we can before I finally roll 50 total damage on an attack when this thing had 5 hit points left.
11) "MAYBE IN YOUR NEXT LIFE, YOU COULD STAND TO EAT A SALAD FOR ONCE, YOU FAT UGLY BASTARD!"
12) I cut the fat ugly bastard's head off.
13) And there was much rejoicing.


Also, we got to keep the Dragon Egg since we convinced them (before and after the battle) that it was destroyed. So now we have a red dragon wyrmling for a pet. Hooray!

If you want more explanations for how me and my party have killed these things, I'll be happy to post them (Zuggtmoy's demise was especially hilarious and unfair to the poor Demon Lord. I swear she's the weakest CR: 20+ Monster to ever be conceived). But whether you believe it or not, we have indeed killed all those things from a combination of magic items, character builds, careful planing or improvisation, and sheer dumb luck. It's not just me, it's my group as a team. We're all insanely powerful and we've all worked together to win the battles we fought each day.