Update on Butler Class

[LordAlabast]

I decided to attempt to Homebrew it myself. Here's what I've come up with: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lcUuUWMRy4itzGhkvCmgWJ9GK3rERxvsL7O9LUhRB3k/pub

I think it's balanced and not over/under powered. Any suggestions?

[Tohsaka Rin]

It looks like what an Elven Bard would be, were they to take a few quirky, already-existing feats.

I don't think an archetype like butler/manservant warrants an entire class, honestly. Not when you could get a similar effect out of a little creative multi-classing.

[khadgar567]

Agreed with tohsaka by the way zaydos already made butler/maid class in his caricutures treat so if you want to be a butler i advise using his work

[LordAlabast]

When I was putting this together what I had in mind was a sort of cross between a Bard and a Cleric, taking up two roles at once, but not negating the need for either. That's why I threw in Lone Loyalty to make him less effective until higher levels.

If it looks like what you'd get through multiclassing and grabbing feats, then I'll tweak it a bit. I'll try to come up with some abilities that make it more unique.

As for a Butler not deserving a class... You'd be right! I wouldn't bother except the campaign I'm in it would make sense.

[LordAlabast]

-Sorry for double posting, but this is my own post-

I added a whole slew of things to make it unique without making it over powered. I think it's pretty different from the other guy's Maid.

[Tohsaka Rin]

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say.

Why are you homebrewing something you could make with existing materials? I see you've made some changes, that again, could be done with existing feats, items, and class abilities. Are you really that married to 'class equals role' idea?

[LordAlabast]

I'm afraid I'm just not sure what you're referring to. I thought most of my abilities were pretty unique in their design, or at least creative. I like the design idea, a few of my friends like the set up, and I haven't found any combination that's quite like it.

I suppose what I could do is create a few spells for the spell list that are unique to it, but I'm not sure what else I could do.

If it could be put together through already existing classes and feats, then please, by all means inform me. What I've done here is created a kind of cross between a bard and a cleric, so that would be the place to start, but the abilities that make it unique I'm not quite sure how they would work. And at any rate, if you could get them as feats that's fine and dandy, but getting them as abilities in a class means you can take other feats as well, which would be incredibly handy, no?

[GrayDeath]

I think what hes trying to say is something like this: Why are you trying to trying to invent something new when everything but the "single class" and name already exist?

Ergo not referring to your class as such or its unique flavour but the fact that you can achieve the same effect by simply combining a few existing classes and taking the right feats.

That does not invalidate your class in any way, its merely stating that its not strictly necessary. :)

[LordAlabast]

Alright, well, all that aside, what do you actually think of it? i.e. its hypothetical viability, whether or not the abilities are overpowered, anything you would change for it, thoughts, ideas, criticisms (concerning anything but its reason for existence.)?

[GrayDeath]

Aside from the weird bab progression and the fact I`d rather give it D8 I find it a weird but OK class.
certainly not OP, if at times unclearly worded (but then again it would not be d&d otherwise^^).

[The Viscount]

I'll start this by saying that I'm not a homebrewer myself, I'm looking at this from the optimizer and rules heavy perspective, so I'm looking for exploits. You might find the homebrew subforum helpful for further discussion.

Weapon/Armor: Since you're basing this off bard, which has shield proficiency, why did you not give it to butler?

Are the BA and saves nonstandard for a reason? I'd strongly suggest using the defaults. You can give it all good saves, Favored soul has them after all.

Butler's Education: All knowledges can be rolled untrained. Do you mean to give it the ability to make checks for DCs above 10? If so, why does butler also have all knowledges? This seems somewhat redundant.

Servant's Wisdom: How well can he find his master? Auto-succeed on track checks? Locate creature at will? Try linking it to game terms to clear this up. Also, since so many features revolve around a master, it would be highly within your interest to define what the master is. Can a Butler have more than 1 master? How long does it take a butler to find a master? Is it something from a young age, or can they declare one at any point in their career. How do you plan for a butler to declare another PC his master?

Night Patrol: 3.5 defines in terms of feet, using multiples of 5, because anything not in this context can't be represented on the grid. Are you sure you don't want to just give the butler low-light vision (doubly far) and then improved low light vision (quadruple distance) if the race already has LLV? Ruathar does this, and LLV is generally considered to not really change anything balance wise.

Lone Loyalty: Are the two options presented an exhaustive list, or just examples? If the butler casts bull's strength on another creature, does it receive only half or full benefit? Does this apply to spells from wands? Does this apply to spells or abilities gained from another class or race, or just butler? Since here is where you mention butler can be released from service by their master, I'm going to warn you that this could result in their PC master releasing them for the express purpose of letting them declare another PC their master for the benefits, essentially loaning them out to the whole party. I'm sure you can think of a clause to make this impossible, and I would strongly recommend you do so. As written this makes the butler bad at casting spells on himself. Is this the intent?

Gentilhomme: Is the save penalty only for effects made by the butler? Do you intend for "attraction to butler's gender" be within reason, or taken to extreme conclusion? That is, does it apply even to creatures that aren't usually known to crossbreed with the butler's race? Does it apply to demons? More broadly, do you really want to make it so that the DM has to consider the orientation of every creature you encounter? Gaining +2 Cha against the creature is going to raise a lot of weirdness (like lasting slightly longer against drain, increasing saves for cha based spells, etc) and brings up questions like "If the butler is making a UMD check to shoot sonic snap at the creature, does the Cha bonus apply?" Because a Butler's only real benefit from this in general seems to be a +1 bonus on Charisma checks and skill checks, I can't help but wonder if you reduced it to that, unless I'm missing something.

Watchful Eye: If a butler ever appears in the party, its essentially certain that they'll just say another PC is their master, and ask them to ask the Butler to search while in the dungeon looking for loot. Essentially, this benefit will always apply. That's perfectly fine and balanced, I'm just letting you know the likely outcome.

Restorative Tea: The once per pot benefit is a good idea, but to make it stick you need to make there be some limitation on tea brewing, so the butler can't just whip up 10 pots of tea after every battle. Also, because poison has completed all the harm it will do in 1 minute, for the tea to be effective you will need to either be able to make it very quickly or store some in a thermos for battles. How long does a restorative tea remain healing properties? This becomes especially important if the tea is limited times per day, because if it keeps indefinitely the butler can spend a week making tea and have many doses on hand.

Assisted Attack +1: Action and bonus action are 5e terms, roughly analagous to standard and move. Free actions can only be taken on your turn. If you want the butler to attack right as the master does, you'll need to make it an immediate action or they'll only be able to attack when they come up in initiative. I'd phrase it as "master attacks an enemy" and "attack the same enemy" just to make it airtight rules wise. As written if the butler is at the other end of the battlefield and his master attacks an enemy, the butler gets to make an attack. Is this the intent? Does the butler need to have the enemy within reach? Does the butler need to be within some defined distance of his master? Can the butler use this with ranged weapons?

Live to Serve: If the butler defines himself as the target of the spell, does he gain 1.5X healing?

Master Chef: Which throwing knives are you referring to? The ones in Sandstorm?

In the Walls: When possible, it's best to make this as similar to game terms as you can. Hoardstealer has a similar ability called Deep Pockets, which it can use to convert any container, even pockets, into a bag of holding effect. This answers a lot of questions about how it works inherently. I don't understand what you mean by "most primary item." Do you mean most reacently added? Do you mean fewest in number? "Objects of any size or weight" opens up a lot of possibility for abuse. The butler can now disappear an entire building into the space. Consider some limitation, like any object the butler can lift off the ground (this limits weight) or the size of the opening for this space.

Butler's Sense: Right now the butler can auto detect traps, but has no ability to disarm them. Is this intentional? Again here, distances are defined in multiples of 5 feet.

Through the Walls: What sort of anti-eavesdropping abilities are you talking about? Does this mean the butler can automatically pierce through anti-div measures if they are scrying?

Assisted Attack +2: the text says 11, but the table says 10. You can just fold this into Assisted attack like "this bonus increases to +2 at 10/11 and +3 at 17"

Foul Intentions: Did you intentionally clip the direction from Detect Hostile Intent?

Evasive Partner: What is meant by "At the cost of both an action turn"? Enemy Hit rate is not a meaningful game term, you would say 25% miss chance in this case. Does the fact that this can be used on nonmaster creatures mean that all abilities can be used on nonmaster creature at reduced benefit, like Loyal servant or assisted attack?

Dish best served cold: By "Attack Bonus" you mean bonus on attack rolls, and not increase to base attack, right? The penalty to skills and saves seems unnecessarily harsh here. What does "looks similar to the original" entail? Same race? More specific? What about shapeshifters? What about oozes or similar thing with no real unique characteristics?

Secret Stairway: Does the butler have to be next to the room to enter it? Can he pass through any length of wall to get there? Why the limit on once per time period? Does "and then exist(sic) to cost one use" Mean if the butler has spent a use to enter a room, they can exit at no cost while still teleporting?

Able Butler: Can abilities not listed here be used on allies without this ability? What bonus does the butler roll at when assisting an ally? 1/4?

Trustworthy Friend: Does this trump things like read thoughts, or just mundane abilities?

Spell Breaker: You're going to need to define "primarily magical class" more.

Undying Loyalty: Why make the butler unequivocally dead? At this level other classes have access to True Resurrection, making this ability highly inferior.

Helping Hands: The invisible servants, if they aren't just unseen servants, need more stats. What is the damage for the servant's attack? What are their saves? What is the caster level of the effect for the purposes of dispel?

Masterful Servant: What does "all increased checks are doubled in effect" mean?

Spells: Virtue is a 0 level spell.

In total I'd rate this as a Tier 4. Is that what you were aiming for?

[LordAlabast]

@The Viscount

Thank you for the in depth analysis! This is why I put things here, because I barely have any idea what I'm doing. I'll try to go down the check list.

BaB: I actually was not quite sure what to do here, and I was making it up as I went along. If you could please guide me to a place where I could fix this that would be wonderful. What I was aiming for was a weaker attacker, though, so I only wanted his maximum BaB to be 11 so that when "Dish Best Served Cold" kicked in it would hit Barbarian level, but not too much higher. I suppose this could be raised, though.

Butler's Education: In the skill section from what I understand to roll for a knowledge check in that field of knowledge you must have at least one rank in that knowledge field. I was making it so the Butler does not need to put ranks there to roll for that knowledge check. If it seems that bad I could also add something like a +2 to the checks to give it a better chance of succeeding, it just seemed like something a level one character shouldn't possess. I'm not 100% clear on DnD level progression, but that seemed a bit much. All I know is in the campaign I'm a part of knowledge checks have been rolled every time we meet, so it seemed useful.

Servant's Wisdom: I updated it to the document. It now negates track checks, but it can only lead the Butler to a 250 ft radius of where the master could ~possibly~ be.

Night Patrol: I believe I did use multiples of five, didn't I? Low Light vision will work, I'll change that.

Lone Loyalty: The intended effect was ALL spells the Butler knows. Any spells gained through abnormal means would also fall under this ability. You also brought up my never defining what a Master is. I am going to add a section to explain the rules for that. The intent for that was the master would enjoy having the servant and not release him, but I can see how it would be abused. I am going to add a limit of 2 master per year if the Butler is released. This does not take effect if the Master dies. A Butler can choose a temporary master if the true master has been detained or taken where the Butler cannot get to him (Such as if the master was imprisoned and the Butler could not break him out.)

Gentilhomme: Yes, the save penalties are only things inflicted by the Butler himself. Anyone else does not get this effect. It does not affect species that do not cross breed with the Butler's race, which is why I made the wording "attracted to" instead of "members of the opposite gender". It would apply to demons (The character I'm building this class for is actually a half demon himself...). I do not recall reducing it to 1, and I don't see it written on the sheet o.O

Watchful Eye: As stated previously, I'm going to add a section on the definition of a Master, and the limit on how many masters the Butler can have per year should prevent this.

Restorative Tea: I made a clause for that, and thank you for catching it.

Assisted Attack +1: I fixed it to immediate action and added a distance limit of 50 feet. Presumably with other abilities in play the Butler will own throwing knives, or at the very least a bow. The throwing knives I'm working with have a range of 20 feet, but to help his master the Butler would make it go further.

Live to Serve: The answer to that is no, and I added the clause.

Master Chef: That was an error on my part. I meant for it to be all knives and daggers, not just throwing knives. I also have no idea exactly where the throwing knives come from, they simply exist. I don't have a physical handbook of things, I have to look everything up and deal with what I find.

In the Walls: Thank you for bringing that to my attention. The weight is now limited to anything the Butler could naturally pick up. The knife and flour example was supposed to model what I meant by most primary object, but I changed the wording to first object anyway.

Butler's Sense: I made it so he can disable them, and again, I believe I used a multiple of 5 o.O

Through the Walls: Any anti-eavesdropping such as the Zone of Silence spell and other such things. Yes, it would also negate anti-eavesdropping things when scrying as well.

Assisted Attack +2: It was meant to be 10, that was a typo. Fixed it. And I could, but I opt not to because of how pretty the graph looks now.

Foul Intentions: I hadn't the slightest that existed, but I suppose yes.

Evasive Partner: I changed it to give dice instructions for it. And no, I specify when an ability could be used on non-master entities.

Dish Best Served Cold (i.e., revenge): I did mean them on attack rolls not base, yes. The drop on skill and save checks were purposefully harsh because presumable in this state of mind the Butler would be in a rage, and thus easier to manipulate or more likely screw up.

Secret Stairway: The Butler does not get teleporting abilities, but just the ability to walk through a wall, so yes, he would need to stand right next to it. Exit*, fixed the typo, and yes, the Butler can enter and exist the room and it will only cost one use. If he enters the room and then exits through a door- well first of all, why'd he use it in the first place, and it would be wasting the exist. Otherwise it wouldn't matter.

Able Butler: Abilities that are not listed here or specified in their own ability descriptions cannot be used on non-master entities. I'm afraid I'm not sure what you're referring to with bonuses.

Trustworthy Friend: Yes, that negates mind reading as well. It is now specified on the document.

Spell Breaker: Meant as in Wizards or Sorcerers- anything that uses non-mundane means as its normal weapon or purpose. Could you please advise me on how to word that?

Undying Loyalty: I was not aware of that, so I'll make it simply Resurrection. I thought a confirmed ressurection was pushing the boundaries a bit, but if it's normal I'll make it so it just revives with no ill effects.

Helping Hands: I did what I could from what I understand, but you might want to take another look at it.

Masterful Servant: For example, if a Butler uses the spell Haste on his master it will be doubled. Haste usually grants +1 on attack rolls, AC, and reflex saves. With Masterful servant, it will give +2. Lone Loyalty and Masterful Servant are meant to contradict each other on the use of things on non-master entities. Lone Loyalty makes things only half as effective, while Masterful Servant doubles them. It's meant to even each other out. With Lone Loyalty if the Butler used Haste on a non-master entity the spell would do nothing because it would grant 1/2, which will round down to 0. However with Masterful servant the two abilities cancel each other out and it would give non-master entities the +1.

Spells: Fixed it, thanks for catching that.

I wasn't sure about what you meant by tier 4, so I had to look it up. I think from what tier list I found I was going for tier 2- the Butler is grand in one thing, healing and supporting his master, but can still do other things proficiently at level 20. Before level 20 tier 4 probably fits, though.

[zergling.exe]

@The Viscount

Thank you for the in depth analysis! This is why I put things here, because I barely have any idea what I'm doing. -snip-

If that's your aim, you should have placed it on the homebrew forum. That's where people go to look and critique things like this.

[LordAlabast]

If that's your aim, you should have placed it on the homebrew forum. That's where people go to look and critique things like this.

I didn't know that was a thing. If that's the case, I'll go move this over there, then. Thanks o/