Paladin Patrons?

[ThinkMinty]

I haven't played a Paladin before (but I'm curious about tryin' it out), and I'm wondering what deities the players who more usually play Paladins tend to roll with. Build-wise I'm probably going with a Castigator, if that makes a difference.

[Geddy2112]

Iomedae is the classic castigator-seek and smite hunt the evil.

Erastil is a pretty chill patron, but less the castigator type. Great because his code is really chill for most parties, and he does not require you to just blindly hunt evil. But you can and are encouraged to hunt. A personal favorite of mine but probably not what you are looking for.

Torag is a good mix of Iomedae and Erastil-some rough tough kick butt but not the zealot.

Sarenrae is also a really chill deity for a party-all about forgiveness, but you have the right to put the city to the sword if a bunch of evil pricks won't see the righteous ways.

Shelyn is a bit too nice for a castigator, all peacenick and all. Abdar just keeps order, much more leader paladins and not holy beatsticks.

I would vote for Sarenrae and Erastil as my favorites, but your pally is probably best for Torag. Iomedae can be a bit too of the "classic stick in the mud" paladin cause of her code.

[ThinkMinty]

Iomedae is the classic castigator-seek and smite hunt the evil.

Erastil is a pretty chill patron, but less the castigator type. Great because his code is really chill for most parties, and he does not require you to just blindly hunt evil. But you can and are encouraged to hunt. A personal favorite of mine but probably not what you are looking for.

Torag is a good mix of Iomedae and Erastil-some rough tough kick butt but not the zealot.

Sarenrae is also a really chill deity for a party-all about forgiveness, but you have the right to put the city to the sword if a bunch of evil pricks won't see the righteous ways.

Shelyn is a bit too nice for a castigator, all peacenick and all. Abdar just keeps order, much more leader paladins and not holy beatsticks.

I would vote for Sarenrae and Erastil as my favorites, but your pally is probably best for Torag. Iomedae can be a bit too of the "classic stick in the mud" paladin cause of her code.

Build-wise I'm goin' with a Castigator because holy beatstick sounds fun, role-and-character wise I was going to go with a relentless optimist. Affable, friendly, flirtatious, kind of a goober, but very brave, nice (not necessarily polite, but nice), and cheerful. Not at all chaste, prudish, or lacking in a sense of humor.

[Geddy2112]

Build-wise I'm goin' with a Castigator because holy beatstick sounds fun, role-and-character wise I was going to go with a relentless optimist. Affable, friendly, flirtatious, kind of a goober, but very brave, nice (not necessarily polite, but nice), and cheerful. Not at all chaste, prudish, or lacking in a sense of humor.

Well, that kind of rules out Torag and Erastil. They are the two cool grandpa's in the shed. Erastil is working on that boat and teaching his grandson to hunt, just like how his grandfather taught. Torag is blacksmithing and teaching grandson how to play chess- to both know how to win a war and plan for the years ahead. Both have that stoic, gruff, old dude attitude and their paladins reflect that(Torag is also a Dwarf, as are most of his followers).

Sarenrae is certainly an open and loving goddess, but piss homegirl off and she will scimitar/holy fire you into next century. Although if you are going for a bit of a romantic flirt, Shelyn is your girl. She normally offers peace if it can be helped, but she is no fool and her holy weapon is the glaive she stole from her brother, who she still loves despite the fact he went angsty emo Nietzsche nihilist. Her code is about offering peace first, honoring art, and seeing the beauty in everyone. She is also depicted as smoking hot and basically every deity wants her in some way or another. You can offer peace, but then if evil tries to corrupt the beauty of good, whip out the glaive and 2 handed power attack smite that ugliness back from which it came.

[ThinkMinty]

Well, that kind of rules out Torag and Erastil. They are the two cool grandpa's in the shed. Erastil is working on that boat and teaching his grandson to hunt, just like how his grandfather taught. Torag is blacksmithing and teaching grandson how to play chess- to both know how to win a war and plan for the years ahead. Both have that stoic, gruff, old dude attitude and their paladins reflect that(Torag is also a Dwarf, as are most of his followers).

Sarenrae is certainly an open and loving goddess, but piss homegirl off and she will scimitar/holy fire you into next century. Although if you are going for a bit of a romantic flirt, Shelyn is your girl. She normally offers peace if it can be helped, but she is no fool and her holy weapon is the glaive she stole from her brother, who she still loves despite the fact he went angsty emo Nietzsche nihilist. Her code is about offering peace first, honoring art, and seeing the beauty in everyone. She is also depicted as smoking hot and basically every deity wants her in some way or another. You can offer peace, but then if evil tries to corrupt the beauty of good, whip out the glaive and 2 handed power attack smite that ugliness back from which it came.

I'm probably going with Shelyn, the Paladin being artsy is just such a fun idea. The moral obligation to find beauty in things and be offended by prudish attitudes is just...definitely need to work this up.

[Xuldarinar]

Personally, I am more partial to the following;

Asmodeus, Nocticula, and Nurgal.

The first for paladins who are centered on law and are very legalistic in terms of the good alignment.

The second for paladins who seek to protect and promote those heretical followers of Nocticula.

The third; He is a sun (demi)god. You see the connection to a certain D&D deity, right?



If there was more information on him, I'd even consider Ruzel... Imagine a paladin who takes all things, especially faith and morality, with a sense of humor. They still stand up for what is right, and protect the good and innocent, but they.. are a strange one..



Take this post with a grain of salt though, as I've never brought a paladin table side.

[Red Fel]

I haven't played a Paladin before (but I'm curious about tryin' it out), and I'm wondering what deities the players who more usually play Paladins tend to roll with. Build-wise I'm probably going with a Castigator, if that makes a difference.

I've built only one PF Paladin, and I chose Irori. Part of the reason - a big part - was to use the Champion of Irori PrC to theurge Paladin and Monk into something like a holy-fueled Domon Kasshu. ("This hand of mine glows with a holy power!")

The character herself was basically LG as described in OotS - she tries. She's incredibly imperfect - she grew up a punk on the streets, so she's extremely rough around the edges; she drinks, she swears, she gets royally cheesed off, but she tries. Each day, she tries to be a better, nobler person. She's not always successful, but she's a work in progress. This gives me the added bonus of not having to make use of the "Rectal Timber" class feature common to many Paladins.

Note that Irori is LN, with an emphasis on discipline and self-reflection, so the natural instinct for a Paladin of Irori would be severity. I like turning that on its head, though.

[Draco_Lord]

Personally I like Cayden Cailean. Alignment wise he is kind of on the opposite end, but I think he makes for the kind of Paladin who has a strong personal code of conduct, a law based on Cayden's believes over moral laws. And they are way more fun at parties.

[ThinkMinty]

Personally I like Cayden Cailean. Alignment wise he is kind of on the opposite end, but I think he makes for the kind of Paladin who has a strong personal code of conduct, a law based on Cayden's believes over moral laws. And they are way more fun at parties.

I like Cayden Cailean, but he can't have Paladins. Chaotic Good gods don't get 'em, which is a crying shame.

[Geddy2112]

Personally I like Cayden Cailean. Alignment wise he is kind of on the opposite end, but I think he makes for the kind of Paladin who has a strong personal code of conduct, a law based on Cayden's believes over moral laws. And they are way more fun at parties.

Although Cayden Cailean and Torag both get along as they both love ale(and both deities make their own), and none of the deities who support paladins really give a dang if you drink or party, so long as you don't become a debauched heathen. Cayden Cailean also hates the idea of drinking to excess and abusing alcohol-it should be used in merriment and revelry, not to drink away your problems or feed an addiction.

It is a real shame that paladins can't worship a CG god by RAW.

[Xuldarinar]

I like Cayden Cailean, but he can't have Paladins. Chaotic Good gods don't get 'em, which is a crying shame.

But there is no rule on that.

Paladins, outside of PFS, have as much room for worship as any other class that doesn't explicitly draw their power from faith. Deities and demigods of all sorts can serve as patrons to, or even sponsor, paladins. Granted, some deities are easier than others (the one step rule being a good rule of thumb) but one could even have a paladin who offers prayers to Cthulhu.

[ThinkMinty]

But there is no rule on that.

Paladins, outside of PFS, have as much room for worship as any other class that doesn't explicitly draw their power from faith. Deities and demigods of all sorts can serve as patrons to, or even sponsor, paladins. Granted, some deities are easier than others (the one step rule being a good rule of thumb) but one could even have a paladin who offers prayers to Cthulhu.

A paladin of Cthulhu would be an anti-Paladin, for Cthulhu is Chaotic Evil in Pathfinder.

[Florian]

I haven't played a Paladin before (but I'm curious about tryin' it out), and I'm wondering what deities the players who more usually play Paladins tend to roll with. Build-wise I'm probably going with a Castigator, if that makes a difference.

The easiest solution is to actually be a Pentheonist. "The Godclaw" is nice as that particular pantheon includes most of the regular Paladin patron deities as well as Asmodeus, because he is actually counted towards the gods of civilization and law in PF :P

[Xuldarinar]

A paladin of Cthulhu would be an anti-Paladin, for Cthulhu is Chaotic Evil in Pathfinder.

Ah, but here is the thing; There is no direct alignment requirement for worship, only for those that draw their spells through worship. Paladins aren't among these.

Now, it might seem a little strange, but it isn't outside the realm of possibility. A mad doomsayer who still fights for the wellbeing of others. They believe fervently that the end is coming, and maybe they welcome it, but they still believe in the greater good and they hope to change things for the better before the end. Or maybe they worship such an entity, but their prayers are an attempt at placation rather than to further their patrons ends? Or maybe even they are mixed up on some sort of detail regarding Cthulhu, being a heretic/heterodox (Cthulhu is a benevolent river deity, right)? Just because -we- know something about an entity doesn't mean it is common knowledge throughout a setting.

[ThinkMinty]

Ah, but here is the thing; There is no direct alignment requirement for worship, only for those that draw their spells through worship. Paladins aren't among these.

Now, it might seem a little strange, but it isn't outside the realm of possibility. A mad doomsayer who still fights for the wellbeing of others. They believe fervently that the end is coming, and maybe they welcome it, but they still believe in the greater good and they hope to change things for the better before the end. Or maybe they worship such an entity, but their prayers are an attempt at placation rather than to further their patrons ends? Or maybe even they are mixed up on some sort of detail regarding Cthulhu, being a heretic/heterodox (Cthulhu is a benevolent river deity, right)? Just because -we- know something about an entity doesn't mean it is common knowledge throughout a setting.

The spells come from the deity, the deity has to be in relative accord with the Paladin/Cleric/Warpriest/etc. That's where the one step thing comes from.

[Red Fel]

The spells come from the deity, the deity has to be in relative accord with the Paladin/Cleric/Warpriest/etc. That's where the one step thing comes from.

For Clerics, yes.

I see no such requirement for Paladins, unless I'm missing it. Paladins get spells irrespective of religious affiliation.

Now, that said, it should be difficult for a Paladin to be devoted to an Evil deity, given that adherents of Evil deities tend to engage in rituals to their deities which are Evil. You know, like sacrifices of sapient beings. A Paladin couldn't actually do that.

Also, it's entirely possible that a (CG, LE, CE, etc.) deity might take issue with having such an openly LG person claiming to champion his cause. But how a deity intervenes is up to that deity (read: the DM); a Paladin's spellcasting, which does not come from the deity, is not technically something he can do anything about.

[Chnapy]

Yeah, if there's such a rule explicitly stated for the paladin (or at least outside of another class' description) I haven't been able to find it. A paladin of Lamashtu or Zyphus might be pretty weird but I could totally see a paladin of Milani work. Sure, she's all about throwing away the chains of oppression, be they legitimate or not.

But can oppression ever be truly legitimate anyway? I'd say no but then again I usually register as fairly chaotic.

[Florian]

That´s the discrepancy between Core and Setting.

ISWG/ISG have Paladin be deity-bound, but offer a broader selection and also different Codes.

[Psyren]

For Clerics, yes.

I see no such requirement for Paladins, unless I'm missing it. Paladins get spells irrespective of religious affiliation.

JJ has said the one-step thing is an oversight and should apply to Paladins, (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rbir&page=10?Can-paladins-worship-an-evil-deity#466) and does in Golarion. (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rbir&page=10?Can-paladins-worship-an-evil-deity#463)

[Red Fel]

JJ has said the one-step thing is an oversight and should apply to Paladins, (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rbir&page=10?Can-paladins-worship-an-evil-deity#466) and does in Golarion. (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rbir&page=10?Can-paladins-worship-an-evil-deity#463)

And logically, it makes sense.

In 3.5 - many of the rules of which have made it into PF in some form or another - although there is nothing stopping someone from being a devotee of a differently-aligned deity, there are reasons why they shouldn't, not the least of which is the nature of deity worship. In essence, the worship of an Evil deity entails Evil acts, the worship of a Chaotic deity entails Chaotic acts, and so forth; an LG character would be hard-pressed to maintain his alignment while expressing religious devotion in a manner inconsistent with that alignment.

However, JJ's authority and aspirational language aside, it is not RAW. It is Word of God (and concerning gods, no less), which is about the closest you can get to RAW without actually being RAW, but you know the saying about horseshoes and hand grenades. I happen to personally give credence to the position, which I find valid and reasonable; but unless it's in the books proper, or a proper errata, I can only acknowledge it as a highly sensible interpretation, not RAW.

[Draco_Lord]

I think this points out the flaws in the alignment system once again. As well as the general flaws in how a Paladin has to operate. Not to get into the alignment side, cause that is a long debate, and not necessary here.

Anyways, to go back to Cayden Cailean. His main patrons are freedom and drink. You might say a Paladin would have a hard time with the second, being lawful as they are, but I disagree. A Paladin can dedicate his life to removing corrupt, evil, despotic, or illegitimate rulers from power, freeing people from their bonds, and letting them return to a just life. This act is in that weird zone between Chaos and Law, and conflicts with good. If you other throw a generally good, beneficial, but ultimately evil leader, is that good, sort of thing. And if you are going against a Law you find morally vile, is that Chaotic? Anyways, point is, being Good and being Lawful have always been two very different things, and being Lawful is such a grey area in so many ways, I think a Paladin, given the right mindset, can follow pretty much any God to a degree and still be Lawful Good.

[Psyren]

And logically, it makes sense.

In 3.5 - many of the rules of which have made it into PF in some form or another - although there is nothing stopping someone from being a devotee of a differently-aligned deity, there are reasons why they shouldn't, not the least of which is the nature of deity worship. In essence, the worship of an Evil deity entails Evil acts, the worship of a Chaotic deity entails Chaotic acts, and so forth; an LG character would be hard-pressed to maintain his alignment while expressing religious devotion in a manner inconsistent with that alignment.

However, JJ's authority and aspirational language aside, it is not RAW. It is Word of God (and concerning gods, no less), which is about the closest you can get to RAW without actually being RAW, but you know the saying about horseshoes and hand grenades. I happen to personally give credence to the position, which I find valid and reasonable; but unless it's in the books proper, or a proper errata, I can only acknowledge it as a highly sensible interpretation, not RAW.

Oh, I know this could fly in 3.5, but this is a PF-tagged thread so I thought I'd bring that up.

And I agree with you, it's something I'd like them to make official via FAQ - but until then, if a GM reads that post and chooses to rule against it, they have persuasive justification. One of the arguments often made here is that RAI is useless because we can't say for sure what dev intent is - in this case, we clearly can, at least until someone takes over JJ's position and decides differently.


I think this points out the flaws in the alignment system once again. As well as the general flaws in how a Paladin has to operate. Not to get into the alignment side, cause that is a long debate, and not necessary here.

Anyways, to go back to Cayden Cailean. His main patrons are freedom and drink. You might say a Paladin would have a hard time with the second, being lawful as they are, but I disagree. A Paladin can dedicate his life to removing corrupt, evil, despotic, or illegitimate rulers from power, freeing people from their bonds, and letting them return to a just life. This act is in that weird zone between Chaos and Law, and conflicts with good. If you other throw a generally good, beneficial, but ultimately evil leader, is that good, sort of thing. And if you are going against a Law you find morally vile, is that Chaotic? Anyways, point is, being Good and being Lawful have always been two very different things, and being Lawful is such a grey area in so many ways, I think a Paladin, given the right mindset, can follow pretty much any God to a degree and still be Lawful Good.

I think the difference here is in approach. A paladin wouldn't honor a law that was immoral or unjust, but he would likely either (a) work within the system to get that law changed so that it wouldn't hurt anyone else, or (b) work to remove those being oppressed by it from that jurisdiction. Possibly even both. A CG Caydenite meanwhile would simply ignore/flout/screw the rules and deal with any consequences as they came up. The LG character might then argue that such a brash/confrontational approach could cause more harm than good in the long run and frown at the CG character, even if the immediate result was moral/beneficial.

[Draco_Lord]

I think the difference here is in approach. A paladin wouldn't honor a law that was immoral or unjust, but he would likely either (a) work within the system to get that law changed so that it wouldn't hurt anyone else, or (b) work to remove those being oppressed by it from that jurisdiction. Possibly even both. A CG Caydenite meanwhile would simply ignore/flout/screw the rules and deal with any consequences as they came up. The LG character might then argue that such a brash/confrontational approach could cause more harm than good in the long run and frown at the CG character, even if the immediate result was moral/beneficial.

I think you aren't thinking fantasy enough about just who the ruling party is. An Evil Wizard who comes to power by killing children to fuel his nightmare spell to enslave a populace, both Paladins are all about smiting him. A king who sells his soul to demons so that he can win a war, that sounds like a potential smiting target (Debatable over if he should be killed or try to redeem).

That said, there are plenty of Paladins who are going to instantly try to kill anyone they detect as evil, even if that person is a nobleman who was born into power. And that is kind of where the lines cross, the whole smite first ask question later kind of approach.

[Psyren]

I think you aren't thinking fantasy enough about just who the ruling party is. An Evil Wizard who comes to power by killing children to fuel his nightmare spell to enslave a populace, both Paladins are all about smiting him. A king who sells his soul to demons so that he can win a war, that sounds like a potential smiting target (Debatable over if he should be killed or try to redeem).

That said, there are plenty of Paladins who are going to instantly try to kill anyone they detect as evil, even if that person is a nobleman who was born into power. And that is kind of where the lines cross, the whole smite first ask question later kind of approach.

Well, obviously extreme situations would warrant an extreme response. But I think you need to be thinking like an archon here - smiting is the last resort, not the first, it's just that last becomes first when there aren't any other feasible options.

[ThinkMinty]

I think the difference here is in approach. A paladin wouldn't honor a law that was immoral or unjust, but he would likely either (a) work within the system to get that law changed so that it wouldn't hurt anyone else, or (b) work to remove those being oppressed by it from that jurisdiction. Possibly even both. A CG Caydenite meanwhile would simply ignore/flout/screw the rules and deal with any consequences as they came up. The LG character might then argue that such a brash/confrontational approach could cause more harm than good in the long run and frown at the CG character, even if the immediate result was moral/beneficial.

Yup. Those arguments are fun to be on the Chaotic Good side of, by the way.

[Anlashok]

I think the difference here is in approach. A paladin wouldn't honor a law that was immoral or unjust, but he would likely either (a) work within the system to get that law changed so that it wouldn't hurt anyone else, or (b) work to remove those being oppressed by it from that jurisdiction. Possibly even both. A CG Caydenite meanwhile would simply ignore/flout/screw the rules and deal with any consequences as they came up. The LG character might then argue that such a brash/confrontational approach could cause more harm than good in the long run and frown at the CG character, even if the immediate result was moral/beneficial.

Or the paladin would balk at the idea of working within a system as corrupt as that because doing so even as a means to overthrowing the dictator is still being complacent in the continued machinations of such an enterprise which offends both his good and lawful sensibilities and he and his Caydenite buddy both go bust down the evil king's door and bash his head in.

[Psyren]

Or the paladin would balk at the idea of working within a system as corrupt as that because doing so even as a means to overthrowing the dictator is still being complacent in the continued machinations of such an enterprise which offends both his good and lawful sensibilities and he and his Caydenite buddy both go bust down the evil king's door and bash his head in.

You're assuming here that (a) the dictator is the only legitimate authority in this situation, whether potential or actual (the evil dictator king may have a reformist daughter whom the people would rally around, for instance), and (b) you're assuming that there would be no negative consequences to overthrowing said dictator. Perhaps, though evil, this guy is holding a number of lesser nobles who are just as wicked and ambitious in check, and the sudden vacuum you create by ousting the tyrant plunges the kingdom into a bloody civil war as his lieutenants battle for scraps. The LG guy cares more about potential consequences like that (Law = the way you accomplish something matters), and so would take the time to find the most tenable solution before taking the more drastic step, like searching for the good noble/scion with the strongest claim to the throne, or even attempting to reform the guy who's currently sitting there if that's not a hopeless case. The CG guy also cares about potential consequences, but is more likely to approach them casually and deal with them as they arise - stop the immediate suffering sooner and not get so hung up on hypotheticals that they lose sight of the suffering going on in front of them. (Chaos = ends matter much more than means.)

[Anlashok]

Yeah, I am making assumptions, but mainly to point out that it's not that simple and a lawful character can come to the same conclusion as the chaotic character's pretty easily. You're also making assumptions and, to be fair, under those assumptions it might be reasonable for the paladin to take that route, but it's certainly not as automatic or given as you make it sound.

And while you do make a bunch of good point as to why a power vacuum might be bad, lawful characters aren't required to be smart or wise either.

Yeah, the lawful character tends to be more concerned with organization in the end, but that doesn't necessarily make them any less direct. After all, evil dictatorships are not just evil, they offend the paladin's lawful sensibilities as well by being dishonorable and unjust and basically everything Law doesn't stand for in their mind. Kicking down the evil fiend's door and making him taste justice? Perfectly kosher for the character archetype.


I also think you're wrong about means. How important means are is more a good-evil thing than a law-chaos thing. The biggest difference between law and chaos are the types of means, not how important they are. The lawful character might be more interested in finding an uncorrupt noble to help the society transition after the despot is overthrown while a chaotic character might be more interested in stirring up a revolution to take down his empire from the ground up, but both of them certainly consider both the means and the ends important. And even those examples aren't necessarily set in stone!

[vasilidor]

For a case specific for detect evil, in the campaigns I run (and this is only for the campaigns I run) the only people who detect as evil are those who have done evil. These are also the only ones who smite evil (and any other anti-evil spell) works on. And yes I count the worship of an evil deity as an evil act in and of itself. I also let any one who wishes to play a paladin know that the only gods who have paladins are the good ones. But this is all specific to the games I have run personally and may vary by DM.