Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed [Archive] - Page 5

eschmenk

2016-05-28, 06:58 PM

So far, that bracer has been operating practically like an omniscient perfect oracle. Unless there are some major limits to it that we haven't seen yet, it could be abused in fantastically greater ways than anything shown so far.

I'm curious what you are thinking of.

Although the bracer seems to be OP compared to everything else like it, it's still somewhat limited as an oracle, so I'm not sure how much it could be abused. It knows the odds that something would happen, and as incredibly useful as that would be, it is still going to be giving some sort of "Maybe" as the answer for the vast majority of useful questions about the future. It could tell Ben that there would be a 1 in 5 chance that Don would disband him if he ordered Dan to make a deal with Stanley, but it couldn't tell him yes or no. If the dice haven't been rolled yet, it can't know what the roll will be.

The bracer may know about [nearly?] every roll that's already occurred though, so [most of?] what's in the past is a certainty. [EDIT: There was some uncertainty in the bracer's calculations (https://wiki.erfworld.com/First_Intermission_45) regarding Charlie being behind GK's lack of gobwins, so was that just Charlie hiding information from the bracer or is that a more general weakness?] Even there, though, you run into a second problem, which is that right specific questions need to be asked, and those questions need to be able to be expressed in a way that's similar to, "What are the odds that X has happened?" (or "...X will happen?") It's not like predictomancy which can warn you about things that you don't know to ask about or lookamancy which could show you things that you weren't specifically looking for. It would be great for checking up on suspicions though.

I also think that you probably have to be careful about how you ask the questions and interpret the results. I have the feeling that the bracer might even be a liability in the hands of people like Caesar or Stanley. Granted, as far as I know it uses common sense when interpreting questions, so it hopefully wouldn't just answer "100%" every time a unit asked it, "What are the odds that I would croak if tried to do X?" but I still think there would be a need to be careful about things like that.

Aquillion

2016-05-28, 07:00 PM

The Glyphstone

2016-05-28, 07:02 PM

When did it lie? It correctly told Parson he had a 0% chance of casting the scroll, because Fate was always going to stop him. Maybe you are thinking of some other example.

That is what I'm talking about. It told him he had a 0% chance, but that was superimposed over the bracer's actual 98% displayed chance.

...“Odds of me casting this spell!” he shouted at the bracer.

The same number as before flashed, then changed to: 0.0 He almost saw what it was this time.

“Again!”

Number, then 0.0. It was a long one. Hard to see the first digits. He looked at Antium, who was standing close. The other two soldiers were a few feet behind him, stepping on embers as they fell to the floor. The one whose hair had caught fire was black and burnt from the shoulders up, but he kept stomping.

“I think this thing is lying to me,” said Parson to the perplexed-looking warlord.

“Again,” he commanded the bracer. And again, a long number showed, then 0.0. There was another collapsing sound, very close this time, maybe from the next room over. That first number after the decimal was not a 0. It might have been an 8...

“Run this same calculation ten times in a row. Go.”

The blue numbers in the bracer began blinking. The 0.0 was a dimmer blue as it blinked on and off, but the other number was superimposed over it: .980104773

A 98% chance of casting success.

He looked up at Antium. There was a lot more smoke in the room now, and Parson‘s eyes were stinging. The bracer was lying. It was telling him he didn‘t have a chance. Why? So he wouldn‘t try to cast Charlie‘s spell...

eschmenk

2016-05-28, 07:33 PM

Wanda seems to know, but was unable to say due to the spell.

It's possible that decrypting Jillian could reverse the mindrape inflicted on her way back when.

I don't think it's part of the "mind-rape." Jack wasn't mind-raped and he couldn't say anything either, at least not until after he was killed. Charlie doesn't need to do a full mind-rape to magically put some controls on people. He even had a partial mind-control over Parson for a while that forced Parson to give him bracer calculations, unless the requested calculations conflicted with Parson's duty to his side. But yes, Jillian probably could answer Don's questions about Charlie if she is croaked then decryped, but I wouldn't expect her to volunteer, especially since she doesn't want to be controlled by Wanda.

That is what I'm talking about. It told him he had a 0% chance, but that was superimposed over the bracer's actual 98% displayed chance.

Why do you refer to that as a lie? I interpret the 98% chance as an interim calculation that was was replaced by the final calculation once the actions that Fate would take became clear. It's as if the bracer found Fate's actions hard to calculate so it just took a while for the answer to reflect them. Either that, or maybe Fate thought, "No! That's wrong! Dammit, it's 0.00!" and changed the bracer's result. Given that Fate was really going to prevent Parson casting the spell, I consider the 0.00 to be the correct result.

The Glyphstone

2016-05-28, 07:55 PM

DigoDragon

2016-05-28, 08:06 PM

Actually, I don't think Jillian is a supporter of Charlie. Charlie is a supporter of Jillian, though. I wonder if anyone, other than Charlie, but including Jillian, knows why. Even if Jillian knows or suspects why, she might be prevented from saying anything thanks to a spell Charlie put on her.

Jillian isn't a supporter of Charlie, but Don doesn't know what we the audience do, so he may think so and ask for a calculation in that phrasing.

So far, that bracer has been operating practically like an omniscient perfect oracle. Unless there are some major limits to it that we haven't seen yet, it could be abused in fantastically greater ways than anything shown so far.

We also know the bracer can and will outright lie if doing so is advantageous to fulfilling certain destinies or prophecies.

Smells like a perfect recipe for someone in TV to get hurt. :smallamused:

eschmenk

2016-05-28, 08:46 PM

Either way, the point I'm trying to make (rather than quibbling over the definition of a 'lie') is that the bracer is specifically known to be unreliable. It initially displayed as 0.0 and only when Parson forced it to repeatedly run the calculation over and over was he able to see through Fate obfuscating the actual answer to his question, of 98% - it didn't start at 98 ('interim') and revert to 0, but the other way round. If Fate causes the bracer to display falsified results for TV, or anyone else, it's very unlikely that they will think to double-check its figures.

I'm not trying to quibble. I think you are looking at it the wrong way. The 0.00 was the correct answer to his question! That's why the bracer displayed it as the final result, as it should have done! The 98% was just a temporarily displayed number that Parson probably would have been better off not seeing. (At least Parson probably wouldn't have been bashed in the head if he hadn't seen it.) It was just one of several numbers that flashed on the display during the calculations and apparently were the interim result of the calculation so far. [ADDED: Looking back, apparently the other interim numbers were calculated just once and weren't repeated when Parson cycled through the calculations repeatedly.] Unfortunately, though, Parson saw the 98% number, which he misinterpreted as the correct answer and that gave him the false hope that he could cast the spell. Under the circumstances, it's hard to blame Parson for such wishful thinking, but Parson was wrong and so he got bashed in the head for trying to do something that Fate was simply not going to allow him to do. Fate was going to win that battle, not Parson, so the 0.00 answer was the correct one.

I think we both can agree that there are dangers of misinterpreting the results for a variety of reasons. In that case, Parson was desperately grasping for straws since he thought he was about to burn to death, so he misinterpreted the bracer even though he probably normally wouldn't have made that mistake. There would be plenty of other ways to make mistakes, though, so even if you weren't about to burn to death, you would need to be careful.

Jillian isn't a supporter of Charlie, but Don doesn't know what we the audience do, so he may think so and ask for a calculation in that phrasing.

Well, then the bracer should say that there was a 0% chance of that being true so Jillian would be off the hook. She had better hope that the question would be worded that way. But if the question was, "What are the odds that Jillian has been knowingly assisting with Charlie's plans?" then the bracer should answer that the odds were 100%. Exactly what questions would get asked would be very important.

HalfTangible

2016-05-28, 08:55 PM

I'm not trying to quibble. I think you are looking at it the wrong way. The 0.00 was the correct answer to his question! That's why the bracer displayed it as the final result, as it should have done! The 98% was just a temporarily displayed number that Parson probably would have been better off not seeing. (At least Parson probably wouldn't have been bashed in the head if he hadn't seen it.) It was just one of several numbers that flashed on the display during the calculations and apparently were the interim result of the calculation so far. Unfortunately, though, Parson saw the 98% number, which he misinterpreted as the correct answer and that gave him the false hope that he could cast the spell. Under the circumstances, it's hard to blame Parson for such wishful thinking, but Parson was wrong and so he got bashed in the head for trying to do something that Fate was simply not going to allow him to do. Fate was going to win that battle, not Parson, so the 0.00 answer was the correct one.

I think we both can agree that there are dangers of misinterpreting the results for a variety of reasons. In that case, Parson was desperately grasping for straws since he thought he was about to burn to death, so he misinterpreted the bracer even though he probably normally wouldn't have made that mistake. There would be plenty of other ways to make mistakes, though, so even if you weren't about to burn to death, you would need to be careful.

I always took that to mean that the two different numbers was a sign of Carnymancy at work. It SHOULD be a 0% chance, but Carnymancy made it 98%.

Lethologica

2016-05-28, 08:59 PM

This discussion about the bracer reminds me of the device/entity Emily in Tower of God, which is nominally a question-answer tool anyone can use, but in reality is a person with her own agenda.

Ubiq

2016-05-28, 09:38 PM

The discrepancy could also come from the question being asked.

The initial 98% and his ability to change the condition so that the spell would be successful could all be correct along with the final 0% and his inability to change that condition.

The first is true because he could indeed cast the spell by reading it.
The second is true because there was a condition that he could change to cast it successfully.
The third is true because, while he could cast it, the spell would not work as he wanted it to; whether it be because it was a trick by Charlie from the start or Parson himself would have been unhappy with the results.
The fourth is true because he would never consider casting it on another target, which is the only way that he could both cast the spell and be satisfied with the results.

Aquillion

2016-05-29, 06:55 AM

The Glyphstone

2016-05-29, 09:18 AM

But 98% wasn't the actual answer. 0% was the correct answer, since Parson would never have been able to cast a spell without Fate interfering to prevent it.

I mean, yes, you could read the weird results on the bracer as being Fate interfering with the bracer, but it seems just as reasonable to read it as the bracer accurately predicting that Parson theoretically had a 98% chance of casting a spell, then correcting it as it determines that his practical chance of casting a spell that Fate absolutely won't let him cast is 0%.

If that was true, it wouldn't have been displaying two results simultaneously. That is why (in addition to Parson's own internal monologue stating such) I'm maintaining that an outside influence - in this case, Fate, was interfering with the output. If the bracer simply had to recalculate, it would have been 0%, then 98%, then 0%. It woul not have been 0% with a translucent, ghostly 98% superimposed over it. One of those two numbers was false.

HalfTangible

2016-05-29, 09:26 AM

If that was true, it wouldn't have been displaying two results simultaneously. That is why (in addition to Parson's own internal monologue stating such) I'm maintaining that an outside influence - in this case, Fate, was interfering with the output. If the bracer simply had to recalculate, it would have been 0%, then 98%, then 0%. It woul not have been 0% with a translucent, ghostly 98% superimposed over it. One of those two numbers was false.
Except it WAS 98, then zero for the individual calculations. The superimposed number only happened when parson ran the calculation 20 times in rapid succession

DigoDragon

2016-05-29, 09:43 AM

Except it WAS 98, then zero for the individual calculations. The superimposed number only happened when parson ran the calculation 20 times in rapid succession

Or maybe he only noticed it after running the calc a few times.

HalfTangible

2016-05-29, 09:48 AM

Or maybe he only noticed it after running the calc a few times.

He noticed it. He just needed to run it 20 times to READ it.

This is stated very plainly in the original update

eschmenk

2016-05-29, 10:24 AM

Except it WAS 98, then zero for the individual calculations. The superimposed number only happened when parson ran the calculation 20 times in rapid succession

Right. As soon as it displayed the 0.00 result, it would instantly start the calculation again so the zero barely had a chance to display. It would very quickly run through the calculations and get to 0.98 and pause at that number just a little longer, then the get the 0.00 result again. Each time, it could get to the 0.98 number faster than it could get to the 0.00 number, so the 0.98 displayed a little better than the 0.00.

If that was true, it wouldn't have been displaying two results simultaneously. That is why (in addition to Parson's own internal monologue stating such) I'm maintaining that an outside influence - in this case, Fate, was interfering with the output. If the bracer simply had to recalculate, it would have been 0%, then 98%, then 0%. It woul not have been 0% with a translucent, ghostly 98% superimposed over it. One of those two numbers was false.

As far as I know, I couldn't absolutely rule out the possibility that the bracer is unable to calculate Fate. However, even in that case, the correct answer was zero because thanks to Fate, Parson had no chance of casting the spell. So if Fate changed the bracer's results, it merely corrected the result from 0.98 to 0.00, because it knew what it would do. However, I think it's far more likely that the bracer merely takes a while to figure out what Fate will do and updates the result with that at the very end of the calculations. I think it has to evaluate Fate last, because Fate never interferes, except as a last resort, so the bracer has to know if it's necessary for Fate to do something before it can figure out if it will. Or perhaps it's better to picture the bracer as creating a nearly infinite number of simulated realities, one for each possible dice roll, and the bracer sees Parson casting the spell in 98% of them, but then sees Fate stepping in and stopping Parson in all of them, so the display reflects that. In any case, whether Fate had to help the bracer out or not, the bracer wound up displaying the correct result of 0.00 at the end of each calculation.

Frankly, I don't know what would be odd about the bracer being able to calculate the result of Fate's interference in its result. Predictomancers know what Fate will do, so why couldn't the bracer?

The Glyphstone

2016-05-29, 10:28 AM

Right. As soon as it displayed the 0.00 result, it would instantly start the calculation again so the zero barely had a chance to display. It would very quickly run through the calculations and get to 0.98 and pause at that number just a little longer, then the get the 0.00 result again. Each time, it could get to the 0.98 number faster than it could get to the 0.00 number, so the 0.98 displayed a little better than the 0.00.

As far as I know, I couldn't absolutely rule out the possibility that the bracer is unable to calculate fate. However, even in that case, the correct answer was zero because thanks to Fate, Parson had no chance of casting the spell. So if Fate changed the bracer's results, it merely corrected the result from 0.98 to 0.00, which is what the bracer should have calculated ideally. However, I think it's far more likely that the bracer merely takes a while to figure out what Fate will do and does that the very end of the calculations. I think it has to evaluate Fate last, because Fate never interferes, except as a last resort, so the bracer has to know if it's necessary for Fate to do something before it can figure out if it will. Or perhaps it's better to picture the bracer as creating a nearly infinite number of simulated realities, one for each possible dice roll, and the bracer sees Parson casting the spell in 98% of them, but then sees Fate stepping in and stopping Parson in all of them, so the display reflects that. In any case, whether Fate changed the results or not, the bracer wound up displaying the correct result of 0.00 at the end of each calculation.

Eh, fair enough.

Aquillion

2016-05-29, 03:29 PM

Frankly, I don't know what would be odd about the bracer being able to calculate the result of Fate's interference in its result. Predictomancers know what Fate will do, so why couldn't the bracer?Well, Predictimancy is the discipline that relates most closely to Fate, whereas Mathamancy doesn't, and the bracer supposedly runs on Mathamancy.

It's hard to say, though, since we don't know as much about either discipline as we do about, say, Thinkamancy. In fact, we barely know anything about Mathamancy at all.

ryuplaneswalker

2016-05-29, 08:10 PM

I feel the need to also point out that the Scroll is Carnied so that may also be screwing with the calculations, Parson by all rights shouldn't be able to cast that scroll..but he can..but fate isn't going to let him.

halfeye

2016-05-30, 08:00 AM

Well, Predictimancy is the discipline that relates most closely to Fate, whereas Mathamancy doesn't, and the bracer supposedly runs on Mathamancy.

It's hard to say, though, since we don't know as much about either discipline as we do about, say, Thinkamancy. In fact, we barely know anything about Mathamancy at all.

Magic in Erfworld is way too complicated. There are so many varieties, they can't all be useful, most of the time.

-D-

2016-05-30, 08:20 AM

Magic in Erfworld is way too complicated. There are so many varieties, they can't all be useful, most of the time.
What's there not to understand? Each magic is based on a meta joke (Retconjuration) or a pun.

halfeye

2016-05-30, 08:39 AM

What's there not to understand? Each magic is based on a meta joke (Retconjuration) or a pun.

Yeah, but there are so many types. They're all gamebreaking. That doesn't make sense with so many, Rock, Paper, Scissors works because there are three, which is not so many. There are 21 ~mancys in Erf, they can't all be the strongest one.

-D-

2016-05-30, 10:23 AM

New comic.

Yay, text updates are back! We never missed you text updates!

It seems Don is going to use Vanna and then deal with her/Bill. I suspect that stuff will finally go down. But, given current pace - no idea when.

Ninja Reply:

There are 21 ~mancys in Erf, they can't all be the strongest one.
Retconjuration is the strongest. Case closed.

DigoDragon

2016-05-30, 10:38 AM

New Comic
"...Or you have any high-value prisoners you'd be interested in turning...

Seems legit. :smalltongue: Course then she goes about spilling it all along with how she knew. I'm no smarty pants ruler for a side, but if I were Don, I'd soon find that I have an opening for a new dollamancer. ;)

I think Charlie believes the Don to be lying, to play hard ball for sweetening the rewards.

Retconjuration is the strongest. Case closed.

Bah, you only went back and changed things just so it looks that way. :smallwink:

Kantaki

2016-05-30, 10:39 AM

Well, it seems Vanna has a few turns left before Don might do something drastic. Unless she does something stupid.
And Bunny is off to confront the Dollamancer.

So, ten ine turns at most before all hell breaks loose at TV. I kinda doubt Bunny and Caesar will do nothing about the current situation.

That went more peaceful than I expected. I didn't think Don would simply lie to Vanna. Well, partially at least. What he said about the Dollamancer is certinly true
And of course Bunny and Charlie were listening. I hope Charlie bought it.

eschmenk

2016-05-30, 11:28 AM

I hope Charlie bought it.

I'm sure that Charlie didn't completely buy it. I don't doubt that what was on the page was correct: "He wasn't completely sure what to make of it." (If anything, that might be a bit of an understatement because sometimes people say, "I'm not completely sure what to make of this," when they are very confused.) Charlie knows that he overheard GK trying to negotiate with TV over something that seemed pretty important (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/150) and he should know that Parson, Jack and Maggie somewhat near the TV portal when they disappeared. Charlie already thought that there was a good enough chance that TV had Parson to send Vanna to TV, so I would find it very hard to believe that Charlie would have easily bought Don's story. The page text basically says that he didn't.

I'm sure that Charlie will want to know exactly what's going on. I wonder how he may try to rattle things to try to find out. I also wonder if TV has more to their plan than what we've seen so far. Bonnie isn't likely to be surprised that Charlie was listening in.

HalfTangible

2016-05-30, 11:48 AM

I'm sure that Charlie didn't completely buy it. I don't doubt that what was on the page was correct: "He wasn't completely sure what to make of it." (If anything, that might be a bit of an understatement because sometimes people say, "I'm not completely sure what to make of this," when they are very confused.) Charlie knows that he overheard GK trying to negotiate with TV over something that seemed pretty important (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/150) and he should know that Parson, Jack and Maggie somewhat near the TV portal when they disappeared. Charlie already thought that there was a good enough chance that TV had Parson to send Vanna to TV, so I would find it very hard to believe that Charlie would have easily bought Don's story. The page text basically says that he didn't.

I'm sure that Charlie will want to know exactly what's going on. I wonder how he may try to rattle things to try to find out. I also wonder if TV has more to their plan than what we've seen so far. Bonnie isn't likely to be surprised that Charlie was listening in.

I presumed that he meant he wasn't sure what to make of the fact that Don is lying to Vanna. Charlie likely knows Don has the bracer, but he doesn't know what kind of use Ben's made of it as of yet.

eschmenk

2016-05-30, 03:11 PM

I presumed that he meant he wasn't sure what to make of the fact that Don is lying to Vanna. Charlie likely knows Don has the bracer, but he doesn't know what kind of use Ben's made of it as of yet.

If Charlie remembers exactly what Vanna said about Dollar (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/161), he probably should know. It wouldn't seem very plausible that Bill was a good liar who just pretended to be a bad liar, but only when discussing Parson and Jack. Even if Bill had been a good enough liar to fool Vanna and even if Bill wanted to falsely convince Vanna that Maggie was there, he might have said that all three GK units were there or he might have said that only Maggie was there, but there shouldn't have been any reason to pretend to lie about whether or not Parson and Jack were there. OTOH, I think you could argue that it would be hard to guess what would make sense to someone who would torture a doll as part of a sick fantasy. :smallconfused:

I wonder how much Bunny knows about what Don is up to. I think she probably does know, but I got the impression that she didn't start heading out to confront Bill until she witnessed Vanna telling Don about Bill telling her about Maggie. [EDIT: Actually, I changed my mind. I think she had to close her eyes and pay full attention to the conversation so it's unlikely that she would have started walking during it. Now I think it's more likely that she began heading toward Bill's, but stopped and tuned in when Don signaled her that Vanna had arrived.] It's possible [likely] that Bunny waited for the dinner to make sure that Vanna wasn't tipped off or keep her or Charlie from figuring out that Don knew in advance about that, but maybe it was news to Bunny. OTOH, it's even possible that Bunny is going for some other reason, especially since Ben probably outranks her and should be the one to confront Bill. Maybe Bunny wants to stop what Bill is doing to Maggie and she intends to use what she learned about Bill telling Vanna as leverage? Bunny seemed pretty upset about it the previous night. Ironically, I don't think Maggie would want her to stop Bill.

Killer Angel

2016-05-30, 03:11 PM

Yay, text updates are back! We never missed you text updates!

This one got an interesting format... all in all, I don't dislike it.

Anteros

2016-05-30, 04:40 PM

This one got an interesting format... all in all, I don't dislike it.

I don't mind it as a one-off. If we get 10 of them in a row I will probably stop reading until we go back to real comics.

It's nice to see Don acting like a competent ruler again. When you discover an enemy spy, feed them misinformation. That's a tactic as old as time. It would have been pretty dumb of him to just kill her off.

Not that I particularly care for Don, but it's nice to see people besides Parson get to be competent sometimes.

eschmenk

2016-05-30, 04:51 PM

I think Charlie believes the Don to be lying, to play hard ball for sweetening the rewards.

Maybe, but normally when you play hardball, you want your opponent to know that you are intentionally doing it. This might be an attempt to get Charlie frustrated and off balance before any negotiations start, or Charlie may conclude that it is, though.

I don't know what Don is up to. I think he's trying to buy time for some reason, but I'm not sure why. If he talked to them, Caesar and Bunny probably would have warned him that Charlie could simply invade TV and take Parson if Don was unwilling to trade with him. Charlie would be much less likely to invade TV if he isn't certain that he knows exactly where Parson is located, though.

I would like to think that Don has wised up and finally realized that the thing to do is to work out a deal with GKl. If so, Don might be trying to stall Charlie while he works out a plan to sneak Parson, Jack and Maggie to Spacerock. Remember, they will need to be able to get there safely, despite not being able to go via the MK. Charlie's Archons will see through any veils Jack puts up if they just try to fly to Spacerock, so getting there won't be easy. Unfortunately, we don't know if Don has wised up that much. (I also don't know if there is anything that could carry Parson in flight. Maybe a Megalogwiff could?)

What might be kind of fun would be if Don decided to reward Jillian with three very lifelike dolls that Vinny sneaks into FAQ's dungeons and even though Jillian denies everything, Charlie sees through Vinny's bat's eyes that they really are there, so the Archons take off for FAQ while Parson sneaks to Spacerock. I don't really expect that to happen, though.

HalfTangible

2016-05-30, 04:57 PM

I don't mind it as a one-off. If we get 10 of them in a row I will probably stop reading until we go back to real comics.

It's nice to see Don acting like a competent ruler again. When you discover an enemy spy, feed them misinformation. That's a tactic as old as time. It would have been pretty dumb of him to just kill her off.

Not that I particularly care for Don, but it's nice to see people besides Parson get to be competent sometimes.

Don is one of those characters that I like as a character but not so much as a person.

Felt pretty similar about Caesar for a long time, tbh, though I'm pulling for C if they do end up coming to blows.

Aquillion

2016-05-30, 05:05 PM

Maybe, but normally when you play hardball, you want your opponent to know that you are intentionally doing it. This might be an attempt to get Charlie frustrated and off balance before any negotiations start, or Charlie may conclude that it is, though.

I don't know what Don is up to. I think he's trying to buy time for some reason, but I'm not sure why.This page provides one obvious reason: He wants her services as a Turnamancer to speed up the arrival of his heir. Regardless of what else he wants to do, stringing her out for as long as possible helps with that.

eschmenk

2016-05-30, 05:57 PM

This page provides one obvious reason: He wants her services as a Turnamancer to speed up the arrival of his heir. Regardless of what else he wants to do, stringing her out for as long as possible helps with that.

True, although I'm not sure if he's as interested in that anymore. If Don's eyes have been opened about the value of Royalty, the heir won't be as important, but it will still be necessary for him to pretend to Vanna that it is. It even seemed to me as if Don was a little too eager to say that the new heir would replace Caesar as Chief Warlord, which is one reason that I'm a little suspicious. I could easily be reading too much into things, though. [ADDED: Another thing that seemed odd was Don blaming a policy of Caesar for there being no prisoners. That could lead to Vanna going to Caesar to try to convince him to get some of them so that she would gain access to the dungeons and finding out from Caesar that Don had lied, instead. That's another reason I'm a little suspicious, but I don't know how much to make of it.]

I've also always wondered if Albert's TV signamancy will become important. It may just be a reflection of TV's money helping to pay for things or Vinny's involvement with Jillian, but looks to me as if Albert is destined to wind up in TV somehow. Don could demand that Jillian trade heirs as punishment or something.

Although I think Vanna is probably safe, perhaps she's not completely out of the woods. Now that Charlie was led to not expect a reason to link with her, she could be drained and made a prisoner and replaced by a doll. If Bunny links with Bill, maybe the Vanna doll could be made to talk like Vanna and be used to keep feeding Charlie misinformation. That's probably a long shot, but I don't know what to expect anymore. Today's update wasn't like anything any of us was expecting.

DigoDragon

2016-05-30, 06:28 PM

I've also always wondered if Albert's TV signamancy will become important. It may just be a reflection of TV's money helping to pay for things or Vinny's involvement with Jillian, but looks to me as if Albert is destined to wind up in TV somehow. Don could demand that Jillian trade heirs as punishment or something.

Heh, end up in 'TV'. :smallbiggrin:

"On the next episode of Heir Swap! Albert runs into trouble dealing with Bunny, but watch as Caesar puts the prince in a can..."

eschmenk

2016-05-30, 06:44 PM

Although I think Vanna is probably safe, perhaps she's not completely out of the woods.

I forgot to say that I don't know if Vanna can or would successfully cast turnamancy on Don when she touches him in bed and learn about any new concerns and desires. She couldn't touch him at dinner, which would limit what she could do there. Don may be such a good liar and is in such control of his worries (if not his temper) that it wouldn't work if she tried. Or maybe it might work, so Vanna would be in deep trouble if she tries.

Heh, end up in 'TV'. :smallbiggrin:

"On the next episode of Heir Swap! Albert runs into trouble dealing with Bunny, but watch as Caesar puts the prince in a can..."

That came closer to happening (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2572400/) than you probably realize. (It seemed pretty likely that something had been named that.)

DigoDragon

2016-05-30, 09:33 PM

I forgot to say that I don't know if Vanna can or would successfully cast turnamancy on Don when she touches him in bed and learn about any new concerns and desires.

Maybe just get it over quickly. ^^;

That came closer to happening than you probably realize.

Huh. I suppose it did.

Kantaki

2016-06-03, 11:59 AM

So that’s what happened back then...
Poor Bunny...

-D-

2016-06-03, 12:13 PM

So that’s what happened back then...
Poor Bunny...
The update was ok.

Not sure why people on forums are assuming that Ponzi raped Bill?

My thoughts on TV haven't changed. I do think GMTTA are being groomed for an enemy that Parson will dismantle as well. Seriously, what the actual **** people... In essence they aren't much better than Charlie. Except they are protecting their secrets and status quo.

HandofShadows

2016-06-03, 12:14 PM

Nice to see Caesar has limits and is smart enough to see the threat of Charlescom. As least SOME of it.

eschmenk

2016-06-03, 12:50 PM

Nice to see Caesar has limits and is smart enough to see the threat of Charlescom. As least SOME of it.

I thought it was nice to see him say something nice to Bunny. I was wondering what she saw in him. We had already seen that Caesar knew that CC could be a threat, although not to the extent that Bunny appreciated.

Not sure why people on forums are assuming that Ponzi raped Bill?

Bill took off his clothing and took the position on the floor with his butt to the door. He was expecting Caesar to walk in and do the same thing as Ponzi had done. I don't know what else that position would be for. Also there was the idea the Ponzi was continuing to do whatever it was for his own reasons rather than as punishment or revenge for what Bill did to Bunny.

-D-

2016-06-03, 01:13 PM

Bill took off his clothing and took the position on the floor with his butt to the door. He was expecting Caesar to walk in and do the same thing as Ponzi had done. I don't know what else that position would be for.
Some form of humiliation, not necessarily rape (e.g. you can cut off parts of him and make him eat said parts of him). It doesn't make it better, but Erfworld has infinite cruelty potential.

eschmenk

2016-06-03, 01:47 PM

Some form of humiliation, not necessarily rape (e.g. you can cut off parts of him and make him eat said parts of him). It doesn't make it better, but Erfworld has infinite cruelty potential.

Well, sure, but it's not surprising that rape would be the first thing that some people would think of.

Anteros

2016-06-03, 04:39 PM

Between the positioning, and the "punishment fits the crime" theme going on here, it's definitely implied to be rape.

-D-

2016-06-03, 05:31 PM

Between the positioning, and the "punishment fits the crime" theme going on here, it's definitely implied to be rape.
It also mentions Bunny participating. How would she participate? :smallconfused:

Narkis

2016-06-03, 05:39 PM

It also mentions Bunny participating. How would she participate? :smallconfused:

Do you really want an answer to that? If so, you can google it. I wouldn't recommend it though, it'd be the very definition of an unsafe search.

Great update though. It justified both Bunny and Bill. Even if he had issues from the beginning, Ponzi broke him completely. So far we've only had Don's thoughts on his son, and he wasn't a reliable narrator. Transylvito's very lucky his coup didn't succeed if that's the way he treats his helpless subordinates. Ceasar looks better and better, both in comparison and by himself. The Great Minds, not so much. The caused all this suffering by simultaneously caring too much about their secrets, and being far worse than Charlie in actually protecting them. His "deal of a lifetime" was both more secure and less onerous on the units it was imposed on.

DigoDragon

2016-06-03, 06:00 PM

Between the positioning, and the "punishment fits the crime" theme going on here, it's definitely implied to be rape.

It also mentions Bunny participating. How would she participate? :smallconfused:

My first thought was paddling with some cruelly constructed paddles to the rear. >.>

Guess Bill can't just be disbanded without addressing the golem defenses in the capital. Shame. He really needs to go. Ah well, at last Caesar was being sweet with Bunny and is piecing together the situation better. He gets another couple respect points from me. :3

I agree on the poor Bunny part.

HalfTangible

2016-06-03, 06:19 PM

... ya know, I still remember when Bunny was a faceless, voiceless nobody.

Quite the turnaround.

It also mentions Bunny participating. How would she participate? :smallconfused:

Girls can rape too, mate. :smallwink:

...

Unless you meant 'why would she'. :smallconfused: In which case, good question.

Grim Portent

2016-06-03, 10:34 PM

Unless you meant 'why would she'. :smallconfused: In which case, good question.

Revenge probably seemed very tempting before she found out she didn't really like it.

I daresay the way she would have participated would have been unpleasant for Bill, likely being of both a sexual and violent nature. Imagine the sort of torments you can visit on someone who'll fully recover the following morning provided you don't kill them.

ace rooster

2016-06-04, 06:54 AM

Do you really want an answer to that? If so, you can google it. I wouldn't recommend it though, it'd be the very definition of an unsafe search.

Great update though. It justified both Bunny and Bill. Even if he had issues from the beginning, Ponzi broke him completely. So far we've only had Don's thoughts on his son, and he wasn't a reliable narrator. Transylvito's very lucky his coup didn't succeed if that's the way he treats his helpless subordinates. Ceasar looks better and better, both in comparison and by himself. The Great Minds, not so much. The caused all this suffering by simultaneously caring too much about their secrets, and being far worse than Charlie in actually protecting them. His "deal of a lifetime" was both more secure and less onerous on the units it was imposed on.

Caring too much about their secrets? An adept thinkamancer knew enough to teach a dollamancer to create a link that allowed torture at a distance, that even an adept thinkamancer who knew how it worked could not easily resist. Did the great minds know that this could be done, and that they themselves could probably do much worse? Even if thinkamancers were naturally 'good', would they be able to resist an order from a ruler like Ponzi to tear a prisoner's mind apart? If I were in that position I would believe it is far preferable to undersell thankamancy, and guard knowldege of it's capabilities to avoid being asked to use them.

The thinkamancy secrets are very different from Charlie's, in that thinkamancers cannot function without knowing enough thinkamancy to be dangerous, where Charlie's units do not need to know his secrets. They do not have to understand their orders to follow them. The thinkamancers even have to be guarded over the extent that there are secrets to guard, and being seen to be overzealous would attract attention to it. The Great Minds are not in nearly such a simple position as Charlie.

guttering flame

2016-06-04, 08:15 AM

Well, Predictimancy is the discipline that relates most closely to Fate, whereas Mathamancy doesn't, and the bracer supposedly runs on Mathamancy.

It's hard to say, though, since we don't know as much about either discipline as we do about, say, Thinkamancy. In fact, we barely know anything about Mathamancy at all.

The bracer is a mathmancy item thanks to the calculator in Parson's watch but shouldn't the time-keeping part of the watch impart an added function to this item? Predictimancy deals with time. It makes sense the watch will have a predictimancy bonus.

Aidjn

2016-06-04, 09:07 AM

... ya know, I still remember when Bunny was a faceless, voiceless nobody.

Quite the turnaround.

Girls can rape too, mate. :smallwink:

...

Unless you meant 'why would she'. :smallconfused: In which case, good question.

Well, she doesn't have to involve herself in the way you might be thinking. Objects can be inserted, beatings, etc.

Of course, she may have used her discipline to either tell Ponzi what to say for maximum effect, emphasize certain sensations such as humilation/shame/powerlessness, or maybe just rip his mind up if she'd like.

But regardless, I think it's all but explicitly said it was rape or extreme sexual assault. Bunny mentions that he basically did the same to her, and Ponzi seems the type to take that personally. Additionally, Bunny has interrogated people before like when Caesar was going to town on Parson and Jack, so it doesn't make sense that she would shy away from brutality. Caesar is unlikely to call Ponzi sicker than Bill for torture, because Bill has already committed sexual assault twice, is known for being unhinged, and also has that weird breast/butt monster. Combine that with what has already been said about Bill's response to Caesar ordering him to the cell (naked and in a submissive pose) I don't see how it could something else.

Bobb

2016-06-04, 01:57 PM

This stuff is not my cup of tea.

Not really looking forward to the next update, which feels weird.

Leewei

2016-06-04, 02:47 PM

This stuff is not my cup of tea.

Not really looking forward to the next update, which feels weird.

Yeah, Erfworld gets pretty squicky. The fact that many units have childlike proportions with large eyes also makes it disturbing during violent scenes.

-D-

2016-06-04, 07:06 PM

Yeah, Erfworld gets pretty squicky. The fact that many units have childlike proportions with large eyes also makes it disturbing during violent scenes.
Right, but Erfworld lately got a lot more dark.

Erfworld wasn't as dark in beginning, it was plushies fighting crap golems and cute spidews.

DigoDragon

2016-06-04, 07:41 PM

Erfworld wasn't as dark in beginning, it was plushies fighting crap golems and cute spidews.

Where you were most likely to die by a song and dance number.

The Glyphstone

2016-06-04, 07:45 PM

We had 'plushies' engaged in a BDSM/torture session 28 pages in to Book 1. That's pretty dark, or at the very least adult.

HalfTangible

2016-06-04, 08:01 PM

We had 'plushies' engaged in a BDSM/torture session 28 pages in to Book 1. That's pretty dark, or at the very least adult.

(i think 'plushies' was referring to the cloth golems, not to all the units)

I've never really gotten the idea that Erfworld units look like children. They always appeared like abstract cartoons to me, especially when Parson's not in the room for comparison.

-D-

2016-06-05, 03:41 AM

We had 'plushies' engaged in a BDSM/torture session 28 pages in to Book 1. That's pretty dark, or at the very least adult.
I never knew dwagons and siege bears where that kinky.

Sure there were dark moments. But they didn't last as long as the current one. Also that session was consent, more or less, this is strictly rape.

HandofShadows

2016-06-05, 07:14 AM

This stuff is not my cup of tea.

Not really looking forward to the next update, which feels weird.

Actually I get the impression that they are going to unmake the golem and give back what had been taken from Maggie.

As for Erfworld being dark? In just the 2nd page of the first book Manpower gets a crossbow bolt into his eye socket. Yeah, this comic has always been dark.

ryuplaneswalker

2016-06-05, 08:02 AM

Right, but Erfworld lately got a lot more dark.

Erfworld wasn't as dark in beginning, it was plushies fighting crap golems and cute spidews.

Erfworld has been very dark from the start, that was the the entire point of things being cutesy, it makes the horrible horrible things that are happening..all the more stark and horrible.

-D-

2016-06-05, 10:51 AM

As for Erfworld being dark? In just the 2nd page of the first book Manpower gets a crossbow bolt into his eye socket. Yeah, this comic has always been dark.
That's Erfworld being violent. And for the record, it was followed by near comical "I can taste key lime pie". There is no comedic silver lining here.

There is a huge difference starting a movie/comic with a guy getting shot or a guy getting raped.

The latter is more personal and traumatic, since wars are generally unknown to most readers.

HalfTangible

2016-06-05, 10:56 AM

The latter is more personal and traumatic, since wars are generally unknown to most readers.

Rape is generally unknown to most readers as well. >.> How does it become more 'personal' and 'traumatic'?

-D-

2016-06-05, 11:51 AM

Rape is generally unknown to most readers as well. >.> How does it become more 'personal' and 'traumatic'?
I dunno, but I know at least one person that was sexually assaulted, and I don't know any people that died in a war or were maimed in war. I assume that due to lower presence of war in urban areas compared to sexual assaults, it would hold true for most readers. Especially, since the country I live was engaged in war, about twenty years ago.

Also rape implies a more personal experience, since assailant gets up close to commit it. Although in that respect Erfworld does kinda stand out.

SZbNAhL

2016-06-05, 02:11 PM

I'm not sure whether there are more traumatised veterans or traumatised sexual assault victims around, but I think it's fairly unlikely that anybody who has an issue with reading about wars would read a comic with war as such a major theme, while somebody who has an issue with reading about sexual assault could have quite happily read Erfworld for years and then suddenly been hit with it in this update.

I guess what I'm saying is: would it have killed him to put a warning at the top of the page?

Douglas

2016-06-05, 02:19 PM

I don't know how the numbers compare, but I'm pretty sure traumatized veterans are a much more concentrated group than traumatized rape victims. War trauma generally happens to whole groups who know each other well, after all, while rape trauma is usually more individual. So, I'd expect a relatively small number of people to each know a lot of war vets, while lots of people know one or two rape victims.

Frozen_Feet

2016-06-05, 03:21 PM

I think that's somewhat besides the point.

Whether lethal violence feels worse than sexual violence depends as much on a person's values than anything.

Ceasar's torture of Parson and Jack cost him as many sympathy points in my eyes, as Bill's molestation of Bunny cost Bill. I can't even imagine what Ponzie could've done for Ceasar to proclaim him as a "sicker flip" than Bill. Some combination of the two? Hard to say.

hajo

2016-06-06, 05:11 AM

Early update (http://www.erfworld.com/blog/view/49891/book-3-page-166).

You really shun't fall in love with your units ...
Wise words about Parson/Maggie - but see also Caesar/Bunny, Vinny/Jillian, Wanda/Jillian, Jillian/Bart ... :smallbiggrin:

-D-

2016-06-06, 05:13 AM

New comic. (http://www.erfworld.com/blog/view/49891/book-3-page-166)

Hypocritical Spike is hypocritical.

NINJA ANSWER:

Wise words about Parson/Maggie - but see also Caesar/Bunny, Vinny/Jillian, Wanda/Jillian, Jillian/Bart ... :smallbiggrin:

Double so, if you count that Wanda/Jillian didn't start as units under your command. In fact, it was something worse - prisoner/torturer.

DigoDragon

2016-06-06, 07:17 AM

Not sure where that sudden Parson rage came from but keep that in check dude. You need all the alliances you can get to fight Charlie. :smalltongue:

Caesar is getting another piece of the big picture. Vanna can turn entire groups. Think she'll be croaked soon?

Anteros

2016-06-06, 07:29 AM

Croaking her would be incredibly stupid. It wastes a potential asset, as well as an information source. She might be captured though.

halfeye

2016-06-06, 07:56 AM

Vanna being turned from Charlescom would be interesting, but who ought she to be turned to? How can she be turned?

Not that she's exactly a Charlescom unit as such, but they pay her upkeep, and she likes the work they give her.

hajo

2016-06-06, 07:56 AM

Caesar is getting another piece of the big picture. Vanna can turn entire groups.
She can also end turns, see KingWorld.
But to cast it, she needs a link to Charlie, because that spell needs so much juice.

So, if anyone asks about more details about KingWorld (and maybe
consult other turnamancers), the truth will come out shortly...

halfeye

2016-06-06, 08:03 AM

She can also end turns, see KingWorld.
But to cast it, she needs a link to Charlie, because that spell needs so much juice.

So, if anyone asks about more details about KingWorld (and maybe
consult other turnamancers), the truth will come out shortly...
Vanna must be master class?

I've said it before, there are too many over-powered game-breaking caster types.

Being able to abort an enemy sides entire turn? That's ridiculously powerful.

So powerful it makes me think there is no ongoing plot, just whatever gets you through this episode, and destroy the next episode in the process if you have to, then pretend it maybe didn't happen.

SZbNAhL

2016-06-06, 08:24 AM

hajo

2016-06-06, 08:30 AM

Vanna must be master class?
I've said it before, there are too many over-powered game-breaking caster types.

Being able to abort an enemy sides entire turn? That's ridiculously powerful.
Sure, and it would hardly go unnoticed when/where it had been used before.
At least it should turn up in one of the highscore-books after some side ended...

Kingworld was Jillian's basic battleplan for Spacerock, her hidden ace.
Nobody plans a battle to rely on an untested spell like that,
so Vanna surely must have cast it before ?

We know she didn't, only CC knew - but Don could ask such questions.
Remember, Bea in her letter to Don proposed he should hire her casters if possible.

Also, Don should ask why did't Bea use that spell against GK ?
(Same answer - she cannot do it without Charlie, and Bea had not hired CC)

So, Don should have a legitimate interest to learn the capabilities of Vanna
and the other the unaroyal casters.

DigoDragon

2016-06-06, 08:32 AM

True, the Arkentools are pretty game breaking, and the major reason for most of the big caster stunts that have been pulled.

halfeye

2016-06-06, 08:41 AM

The thing to remember about Charlie's linkups is that they're primarily a product of the Arkendish - without it the only way you could pull off tri-caster linkups so casually is by having multiple high-level thinkamancers on hand (one to facilitate the link, at least one to dissolve it). When you consider the powers exhibited by the other 'tools (unlimited movement/inter-dimensional transport, an infinite upkeep-free army, almost unbeatable personal combat prowess/dwagon-taming/flight/whatever other tricks the Arkenhamer can pull off), does it really seem so unreasonable that the Arkendish has a few "game-breaking" abilities? Especially since Charlie's been attuned so much longer than anyone else we've seen use a tool and has probably been experimenting far more actively.

I'm not convinced the Arkentools have specific powers. Charlie who is a carneymancer has the arkendish which does comms, which is to say carney, Stanley has the Arkenhammer which does Stanley type stuff, and Wanda is a necromancer, and the Arkenpliers do enhanced necromancy, I suspect the Arkentools enhance whatever an attuned user usually does. Why Ansom couldn't attune is an interesting question.

hajo

2016-06-06, 08:49 AM

I suspect the Arkentools enhance whatever an attuned user usually does.
Why Ansom couldn't attune is an interesting question.
Maybe it is just a question of time.
Judy and Charlie needed several days to attune, Wanda only a few seconds.

And -of course- some people have fate :smallbiggrin:

eschmenk

2016-06-06, 08:59 AM

I don't know if we can blame the fact that Parson wasn't fully awake, but I don't think he needed to tell Caesar that GK had no gobwins. That would undermine any any threats GK might make to get him free in addition to GK's bargaining position in any future truce talks. Parson could have said more about the battle, though. If he had, it might have matched stuff that Caesar had heard and helped him to believe Parson's story. What Parson said might have been enough, but another thing he could have talked about was that Charlie offered good terms in order to save Jillian when she was incapacitated. Parson couldn't tell him the details of the deal, but he could tell Caesar that it seemed as if keeping Jillian alive was very important to Charlie. That probably would helped increase Caesar's suspicions. (Caesar already knew that Vanna was working for Charlie, but Parson didn't know that he knew, so I'm ignoring that in this paragraph.)

Caesar is getting another piece of the big picture. Vanna can turn entire groups. Think she'll be croaked soon?

She can also end turns, see KingWorld.
But to cast it, she needs a link to Charlie, because that spell needs so much juice.

Vanna was also linked with Charlie when she turned the hobgobwins. I don't think she could have done either one by herself. The thing is that Vanna can link with Charlie, so she can do those things. Hopefully Charlie can't carny a link if/when she's a prisoner, though.

I'm not convinced the Arkentools have specific powers. Charlie who is a carneymancer has the arkendish which does comms, which is to say carney, Stanley has the Arkenhammer which does Stanley type stuff, and Wanda is a necromancer, and the Arkenpliers do enhanced necromancy, I suspect the Arkentools enhance whatever an attuned user usually does. Why Ansom couldn't attune is an interesting question.

No. The arkendish does thinkamancy. The comms and the links are thinkamancy. Thinkamancers do similar things.

halfeye

2016-06-06, 09:45 AM

No. The arkendish does thinkamancy. The comms and the links are thinkamancy.

Do you have canon for that, because I don't remember it (I don't remember a lot of things, some of which turn out to be correct despite my not remembering them).

Yuki Akuma

2016-06-06, 09:47 AM

You... don't remember that thinkagrams and caster links are Thinkamancy?

What do you think Maggie does all the time?

halfeye

2016-06-06, 09:53 AM

You... don't remember that thinkagrams and caster links are Thinkamancy?

What do you think Maggie does all the time?
I remember very little. However, caster classes overlap, and it seems entirely plausible to me that carnys (especially Charlie who is a master++ carnymancer) can do thinkagrams and caster links.

I still think it's likely that if, say, Parson attunes to the Arkenpliers, they won't do necromancy.

eschmenk

2016-06-06, 09:59 AM

Do you have canon for that, because I don't remember it (I don't remember a lot of things, some of which turn out to be correct despite my not remembering them).

Panel 5 (https://wiki.erfworld.com/TBFGK_88)./././broken_keyboard

-D-

2016-06-06, 10:26 AM

I'm not convinced the Arkentools have specific powers. Charlie who is a carneymancer has the arkendish which does comms, which is to say carney, Stanley has the Arkenhammer which does Stanley type stuff, and Wanda is a necromancer, and the Arkenpliers do enhanced necromancy, I suspect the Arkentools enhance whatever an attuned user usually does. Why Ansom couldn't attune is an interesting question.
I think that Arkentools serve as some for of wish fulfilment to a degree. For Wanda it was perfect Croakamancy, for Stanley it's a powerful weapon, for Judy it was a way to return home. But we don't have enough data how it behaves between two users.

Charlie is sort of a weird example. His power is Carnymancy, but Dish granted him Thinkamancy spells. It didn't give him super Carnymancy. Also Ansom mentioned that Pliers can kill uncroaked units in single hit, which implies Arkenpliers had some sort of effect on dead people.

My pet hypothesis is that each tool is meant to do something and that each user interprets that function as close as he can. What I mean is this Hammer is used for nailing, smashing, pliers are used for snapping,twisting and Dish is used for communication. Essentially, people see in Arkentools what they are biased to see, but they aren't necessarily as limited to what they do under single user.

If hypothetically, a Dirtamancer would attune to Arkenhammer, he'd be able to cause earthquakes, if Rhymomancer would attune to Arkenhammer, he'd have the ability to create Titanic level metal music (imagine granting rocking out for entire hex).. In lieu of that Arkenpliers serve to either cut or twist the Grandiocosmic strings in people/matter/ideas. The reason Wanda could use it to repatriate Lilith is that Maggie saw the potential. It worked for Ansom because at its base it probably cuts the basic threads between Croakamancer and her units.

halfeye

2016-06-06, 10:33 AM

Panel 5 (https://wiki.erfworld.com/TBFGK_88)./././broken_keyboard
Yeah, but can we be sure that isn't via over-powered Carnymancey?

I've got questions more than answers at this point. I do suspect the arkentools are user focused.

I could be wrong at any point, but I'll always have questions.

HalfTangible

2016-06-06, 10:46 AM

Early update (http://www.erfworld.com/blog/view/49891/book-3-page-166).

Wise words about Parson/Maggie - but see also Caesar/Bunny, Vinny/Jillian, Wanda/Jillian, Jillian/Bart ... :smallbiggrin:

Someone in the comments: "Parson doesn't know it, but he and Caesar are friends now".

I have to agree. It's easier to make friends with someone who sees you vulnerable, if they also see themselves in you

Yuki Akuma

2016-06-06, 10:47 AM

Yeah, but can we be sure that isn't via over-powered Carnymancey?

I've got questions more than answers at this point. I do suspect the arkentools are user focused.

I could be wrong at any point, but I'll always have questions.

Well, you know, there's the whole thing where everyone thought Charlie was a Thinkamancer, and him turning out to be a Carnymancer was a huge plot point?

Maybe you should re-read the comic, if you seriously can't remember anything about it.

halfeye

2016-06-06, 11:07 AM

Maybe you should re-read the comic, if you seriously can't remember anything about it.

Right, and again next week, and the week after that ... It's a comic, there's not that much time.

SZbNAhL

2016-06-06, 11:13 AM

Right, and again next week, and the week after that ... It's a comic, there's not that much time.

You could try reading the plot recaps on the wiki. They sum the key points of each page up in about a line, so you can get the main facts of all three books in about fifteen minutes.

DigoDragon

2016-06-06, 11:27 AM

Charlie is sort of a weird example. His power is Carnymancy, but Dish granted him Thinkamancy spells. It didn't give him super Carnymancy.

Charlie is a bit of a control freak. I suppose giving him hundreds of channels to hack into eyebooks and intercept calls and spy on pretty much everyone is his "Big Brother's Watching You" wish fulfillment realized. May still be a bit of a weird example, but it makes some sense.

Aquillion

2016-06-06, 11:33 AM

Don't forget that not just anyone can attune to an arkentool. Given the heavy focus on the importance of attunement, it seems reasonable to assume that the Arkentools attune to people whose personalities suit their functions, rather than adapting their functions to suit whoever happens to attune to them.

eschmenk

2016-06-06, 01:10 PM

The Arkendish's Thinkamancy is exactly what Charlie needs, especially given his physical problems. Charlie can't go around Carnying people like Jojo can. He needs to do everything remotely, so he needs to use the g-strings or whatever other strings the Thinkamancers use.

It's probably not true that each Arkentool is tied only to one discipline, though. https://wiki.erfworld.com/LIAB_Prologue_25:

What did the Arkendish do? Many things, most of them connected to Thinkamancy...

OK, not "all" of them.

SZbNAhL

2016-06-06, 03:58 PM

Yeah, I'd guess the ability to view other dimensions would be lookamancy and the archons are weirdomancy (since he's effectively popping knights and giving them the flying special).

HalfTangible

2016-06-06, 04:08 PM

Yeah, I'd guess the ability to view other dimensions would be lookamancy and the archons are weirdomancy (since he's effectively popping knights and giving them the flying special).

Archons are not unique to the Arkendish; other cities can pop them. Skanks and Goyles have similar abilities.

SZbNAhL

2016-06-06, 04:24 PM

Archons are not unique to the Arkendish; other cities can pop them. Skanks and Goyles have similar abilities.

Ah, you're right. I was misremembering this update (https://wiki.erfworld.com/LIAB_Prologue_25), specifically this bit:

Did Charlie pop anything but Archons? No. The capital could pop one every turn, or three every two turns if they had hired a Turnamancer. Few other cities could pop Archons at all, and all of those required multiple turns. This might or might not be a function of the Arkendish.

I guess if the Arkendish speeds up the generation of Archons it's turnamancy?

HalfTangible

2016-06-06, 04:37 PM

Ah, you're right. I was misremembering this update (https://wiki.erfworld.com/LIAB_Prologue_25), specifically this bit:

I guess if the Arkendish speeds up the generation of Archons it's turnamancy?

Possibly, but if so then why would additional turnamancers affect anything?

DigoDragon

2016-06-06, 06:55 PM

Possibly, but if so then why would additional turnamancers affect anything?

Maybe the effects stack?

eschmenk

2016-06-06, 07:16 PM

Possibly, but if so then why would additional turnamancers affect anything?

Probably because the Turnamancers knew how to do things other than increase the production of Archons.

Even if the Arkendish increasing the production of Archons would count as Turnamancy, it would only be a very limited example of Turnamancy. If Charlie wanted something else done and the Arkendish couldn't do wjatever it was, Charlie would have to hire out.

ryuplaneswalker

2016-06-06, 09:59 PM

I guess if the Arkendish speeds up the generation of Archons it's turnamancy?

It may just be a side effect of the Attuning, Don't dwagons show up more often around Stanley?

Yuki Akuma

2016-06-06, 10:00 PM

It may just be a side effect of the Attuning, Don't dwagons show up more often around Stanley?

Not that we've been told, but Gobwin Knob cities can pop them, which no other side we've seen seems capable of doing.

HalfTangible

2016-06-06, 10:09 PM

Maybe the effects stack?If Turnamancy stacks multiplicatively, then they should easily be the richest casters in all of Erfworld, because that's insane.

Probably because the Turnamancers knew how to do things other than increase the production of Archons.We know that Charlie hired Turnamancers to increase Archon production because we know what that hire did: Archon production was accelerated by 50%, from one every turn to three every two turns.

Even if the Arkendish increasing the production of Archons would count as Turnamancy, it would only be a very limited example of Turnamancy. If Charlie wanted something else done and the Arkendish couldn't do wjatever it was, Charlie would have to hire out.

"Limited"? Going from one archon over the course of multiple turns to one per turn seems pretty dang powerful to me =/ Certainly moreso than any production-affecting turnamancy we've seen so far.

It may just be a side effect of the Attuning, Don't dwagons show up more often around Stanley?

Not that we've been told, but Gobwin Knob cities can pop them, which no other side we've seen seems capable of doing.
The confusion here probably stems from the fact that Stanley DID find an inordinate number of dwagons when he went to conquer Faq. This is implied to either be Fate at work or Charlie's affinity for natural allies playing out. However, it's not normal for such a thing to occur - Stanley was able to rebuild the dwagon fleet through Archon scouts in the minty mountains.

Ubiq

2016-06-06, 10:11 PM

It may just be a side effect of the Attuning, Don't dwagons show up more often around Stanley?

He gets a massive bonus when it comes to taming them but they don't pop any faster that I'm aware of. Have we seen any units generated by Spacerock under Stanley?

eschmenk

2016-06-06, 10:13 PM

It may just be a side effect of the Attuning, Don't dwagons show up more often around Stanley?

IIRC, that happened just once and it was implied that it happened because Stanley was fated to destroy FAQ so he was able to capture extra dragons on the way there. I didn't double-check my memory, though. (But multiple people beat me to that part of the reply.)

How are you distinguishing between the regular effects of the attuning and something that's just a side-effect of the attuning? Aren't they all powers that the arkentool grants to those who attune to it? I don't think any attempt to make such a distinction would be useful or meaningful.

We know that Charlie hired Turnamancers to increase Archon production because we know what that hire did: Archon production was accelerated by 50%, from one every turn to three every two turns.
I missed that. But then that's an answer! If allowing the CC to produce 1 Archon per turn is Turnamancy, then Charlie would hire a Turnamancer to increase it to 3 every 2 turns if that's what he wanted to do. If he wanted the Turnamancer to do something else, like end GK's turn, he would hire them for that.

"Limited"? Going from one archon over the course of multiple turns to one per turn seems pretty dang powerful to me =/ Certainly moreso than any production-affecting turnamancy we've seen so far.
Yes, of course it would be limited. The rate would still be less than infinity and it wouldn't cover everything that could fall under Turnamancy, so it would be limited.

-D-

2016-06-07, 04:46 AM

The confusion here probably stems from the fact that Stanley DID find an inordinate number of dwagons when he went to conquer Faq. This is implied to either be Fate at work or Charlie's affinity for natural allies playing out. However, it's not normal for such a thing to occur - Stanley was able to rebuild the dwagon fleet through Archon scouts in the minty mountains.
Would Charlie be even able to do that? He was contractually bound to protect FAQ and he has an interest in seeing Jillian become a Queen and not a free agent.

DigoDragon

2016-06-07, 05:58 AM

If Turnamancy stacks multiplicatively, then they should easily be the richest casters in all of Erfworld, because that's insane.

I don't think anything has said that they may not be. The ability to help pop units faster is probably one of the most valuable ones out there.

SZbNAhL

2016-06-07, 06:02 AM

The confusion here probably stems from the fact that Stanley DID find an inordinate number of dwagons when he went to conquer Faq. This is implied to either be Fate at work or Charlie's affinity for natural allies playing out.

I always figured Charlie's natural-ally powers were the result of his enhanced thinkamancy affecting their loyalty (similar to the GMtTA's "loyalty to thinkamancy" trick), not a specific power to control all aspects natural allies (especially now that we know he kept GK from recruiting gobwins by recruiting them himself (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/17), not by fiddling the pop rate). Since dwagons aren't so much natural allies as tameable ferals (there are no dwagon chiefs, dwagons don't seem to have sapience and cities can pop dwagons directly, none of which scream "natural ally" to me), I'm not sure how Charlie could have put them in Stanley's path.

Anteros

2016-06-07, 07:06 AM

If Turnamancy stacks multiplicatively, then they should easily be the richest casters in all of Erfworld, because that's insane.

It doesn't have to be multiplicatively though. If it stacks additively it would make more sense.

-D-

2016-06-07, 07:15 AM

It doesn't have to be multiplicatively though. If it stacks additively it would make more sense.
It's also possible to stack mutliplicatively with diminishing returns (e.g. first 50% boost, then 40% boost, ..., then -10% boost,...).

So getting one Turnamancer is ok, second is still good, but less bang for buck and tenth Turnamancer is horri-bad. IMO wouldn't Dittomancers be more of an asset then? Ditto + Turn and you can double your production or have two turns.

eschmenk

2016-06-07, 08:09 AM

Would Charlie be even able to do that? He was contractually bound to protect FAQ and he has an interest in seeing Jillian become a Queen and not a free agent.

I don't think Charlie had anything to do with the dragons, but do we actually know that Charlie is contractually bound to protect Faq? It didn't sound as if the original version of the Deal of a Lifetime included that (https://wiki.erfworld.com/IPTSF_Text_75):

Charlie would pledge funds to rebuild Faq, and swear a lifetime oath never to attack it, or disclose its location, or aid any side in disturbing it.
Granted, Charlie had to negotiate better terms thanks to Jillian holding out, but we weren't told that they included protecting Faq, were we? I'm suspicious that he's contractually required to help Jillian, but I think he could have his own reasons, instead. For all I know, he might hope that he'll have a chance to look at her mind again and would be curious to see how it changed since the last time he was inside of it.

In any case, helping Stanley get the dragons would have amounted to aiding an attack on Faq and I'm sure that the final version of the Deal of a Lifetime still wouldn't have allowed that.

If Turnamancy stacks multiplicatively, then they should easily be the richest casters in all of Erfworld, because that's insane.

I dunno. There could be a number of things at play. Maybe diminishing returns apply. Maybe the Arkendish's effect is a different type of turnamancy that can stack with a Turnamancer's magic.

Personally, I doubt that the Arkendish's effect is actually turnamancy. I think the Arkendish probably creates conditions under which Archons can more easily pop, rather than making the metaphorical production mechanism turn faster, so although it would have a similar effect, the underlying nature would be different. It's probably analogous to City Managers, who can be warlords or courtiers rather than casters, increasing production. Turnamancers could probably add to that, too.

HalfTangible

2016-06-07, 11:39 AM

Would Charlie be even able to do that? He was contractually bound to protect FAQ and he has an interest in seeing Jillian become a Queen and not a free agent.

He might. I wouldn't put it past him anyway.

Contracts have loopholes, and while he apparently wants Jillian on the throne, he also wants his trade secrets kept secure.

It doesn't have to be multiplicatively though. If it stacks additively it would make more sense.

No, that's even MORE insane. We have multiple examples of how Turnamancy affects normal unit popping: with full juice usage it reduces the time spent to pop a unit by 50%. We know this because Vanna has accelerated multiple units at different stages of production and because we know how Turnamancy affects CC.

In this instance, multiplicative is LESS powerful than additive. Let's say it takes 10 turns to pop an archon under normal circumstances. Additive would mean that each turnamancer would reduce the time by 5 days, meaning that having two turnamancers would cause an archon to pop every day. Multiplicative would mean that the Turnamancers would reduce the time to two and a half days.

Jasdoif

2016-06-07, 12:47 PM

No, that's even MORE insane. We have multiple examples of how Turnamancy affects normal unit popping: with full juice usage it reduces the time spent to pop a unit by 50%. We know this because Vanna has accelerated multiple units at different stages of production and because we know how Turnamancy affects CC.

In this instance, multiplicative is LESS powerful than additive. Let's say it takes 10 turns to pop an archon under normal circumstances. Additive would mean that each turnamancer would reduce the time by 5 days, meaning that having two turnamancers would cause an archon to pop every day. Multiplicative would mean that the Turnamancers would reduce the time to two and a half days.Generally, modifiers of this type are applied to the production rate, ie a Turnamancer increases a city's production rate by 50%. If it were additive with two, it'd be 100%(base) + 50% + 50%, for 200% production; if it were muliplicative with two, it'd be 100%(base) * 150% * 150%, for 225% production.

That said, I think it's far more likely that we don't see multiple Turnamancers hired out because of stacking rules preventing them from applying their bonuses together; and Charlie either Carnymancied his effect to break stacking rules, or it's from an entirely different source (modified Archons?) so it isn't technically stacking bonuses. Or, it could also be that Charlie can always produce Archons at the supposedly-Turnamancer-boosted rate, and he only does it with a Turnamancer around because he doesn't want his Archons to know the full scope of his abilities.

Dragonus45

2016-06-09, 09:58 PM

The internet will ship any two characters who show any affection at all for one another. I'm pretty sure people on this forum even pushed Elan/Roy at one point.

Affection? That's assuming they even need to interact. I once remember a thread where someone was shipping Julio Scoundrel and Laurin Shattersmith over an off hand comment she made about being a member of his fan club decades ago.

Lethologica

2016-06-09, 11:29 PM

The internet will also ship any two characters, period. But any form of affection from one party to the other kick-starts it, and mutual affection might as well be lighter fluid.

HalfTangible

2016-06-09, 11:33 PM

Affection? That's assuming they even need to interact. I once remember a thread where someone was shipping Julio Scoundrel and Laurin Shattersmith over an off hand comment she made about being a member of his fan club decades ago.I dunno about off-hand, and fan club implies ye at least LIKE the person involved

The internet will also ship any two characters, period. But any form of affection from one party to the other kick-starts it, and mutual affection might as well be lighter fluid.To the degree that canon love interests will be killed off in order to justify it in fanfics.

I REALLY hate those.

-D-

2016-06-10, 06:06 AM

To the degree that canon love interests will be killed off in order to justify it in fanfics.

I REALLY hate those.
So kill off OotS, Celia and Redcloak, so Xykon and Roy can finally be a thing? :P

-D-

2016-06-10, 05:24 PM

New comic.

Something tells me this won't happen.

HalfTangible

2016-06-10, 05:46 PM

New comic.

Something tells me this won't happen.

The fact that Robert handed a message off to Jojo earlier, suggesting he's working for Charlie

eschmenk

2016-06-10, 08:23 PM

The fact that Robert handed a message off to Jojo earlier, suggesting he's working for Charlie

Bonnie knew about Ivan working for Charlie. Would she also know about Roger working for Charlie if he were doing that? I don't know. She's not letting on that she knows anything about that, but it could be that she agreed to keep it a secret in exchange for Roger's help, so she's not telling Sizemore the full story.

In other words, if Bonnie could blackmail Roger, Roger might have switched sides. There isn't any evidence of that yet, but Bonnie might not be telling Sizemore everything.

HalfTangible

2016-06-10, 08:33 PM

Bonnie knew about Ivan working for Charlie. Would she also know about Roger working for Charlie if he were doing that? I don't know. She's not letting on that she knows anything about that, but it could be that she agreed to keep it a secret in exchange for Roger's help, so she's not telling Sizemore the full story.

In other words, if Bonnie could blackmail Roger, Roger might have switched sides. There isn't any evidence of that yet, but Bonnie might not be telling Sizemore everything.

Actually, my current theory is that Roger is being manipulated by the Carnymancers (or possibly even Charlie himself - he was an Archon, after all) and has no idea that he even handed that letter to Jojo.

TGMTTA don't have the ability to read every thought that they have, but thinking is their whole business. Roger's inner monologue shows a pretty big disconnect between supposedly being a spy for Charlie and what his cover identity wants to do.

danelsan

2016-06-10, 11:07 PM

Actually, my current theory is that Roger is being manipulated by the Carnymancers (or possibly even Charlie himself - he was an Archon, after all) and has no idea that he even handed that letter to Jojo.

Please don't start the "Roger is an Archon" thing again. It was weak as a joke, and positively terrible when people apparently started taking it seriously, to the point Rob himself had to intervene.

I have Retconjured the balloons in 163. What's on the page now is actually what was in the script, but I had made a change in lettering because I thought it flowed better and made better use of the space. I didn't want to cover Roger's folded hands on the table.

There's a little subroutine in my head that represents how the readers will view what's on the page. It did not warn me that "Roger is secretly an Archon" would be seriously considered by anyone, but it seems that's the case. Sorry for confusing some of you. :?

HalfTangible

2016-06-10, 11:56 PM

Please don't start the "Roger is an Archon" thing again. It was weak as a joke, and positively terrible when people apparently started taking it seriously, to the point Rob himself had to intervene.Frankly, I only just now got what that panel was supposed to mean. I'll thank you not to assume I'm out to 'start anything' :smallannoyed:

You gonna address my actual point?

Jasdoif

2016-06-11, 02:09 AM

Frankly, I only just now got what that panel was supposed to mean.That...we were supposed to figure out that the speaker changed from Bonnie to Antium between the panels, so "highest ranking Archon ever to leave Charlescomm" in the final line was Antium referring to Bonnie and not Bonnie referring to Roger; despite Roger being the one portrayed in the final panel?

That makes for one really awkwardly presented closing panel....

Lethologica

2016-06-11, 02:14 AM

The "someone" is clearly referring to Roger in that panel. "The highest-ranking Archon ever to leave Charlescomm" is bloody indirect for Duke Antium, though.

Zalabim

2016-06-11, 07:34 AM

So, are we not even going to pretend to talk about the hanging question in the comic? The Minds want info on CC. What will Grand Abbie Atlantis want? What will that name signify? Any guesses?

DigoDragon

2016-06-11, 11:14 AM

In other words, if Bonnie could blackmail Roger, Roger might have switched sides. There isn't any evidence of that yet, but Bonnie might not be telling Sizemore everything.

Does Bonnie know Roger is working with Charlie? Perhaps some secrets are compartmentalized so that no one archon knows all the info on Charlscomm. I could see Charlie as the kind of guy who keeps secrets from himself.

So, are we not even going to pretend to talk about the hanging question in the comic? The Minds want info on CC. What will Grand Abbie Atlantis want? What will that name signify? Any guesses?

Who's Grand Abbie Atlantis again?

HalfTangible

2016-06-11, 11:15 AM

Who's Grand Abbie Atlantis again?

Janis .

DigoDragon

2016-06-11, 11:28 AM

Janis.

Oh, okay. I totally don't remember her being called that before. I even checked the wiki and didn't get anything so I was left scratching my head. Thanks for clearing that up. Okay so what does Janis want... well, wars to end I suppose. No more fighting or foreign side units in the MK probably? Her friend Marie is dead, wonder how that affected Janis.

eschmenk

2016-06-11, 12:01 PM

The "someone" is clearly referring to Roger in that panel. "The highest-ranking Archon ever to leave Charlescomm" is bloody indirect for Duke Antium, though.

Keep in mind that the panel was retconjured as danelsan pointed out. The sentence that includes the word "someone" didn't exist originally.

http://mynetimages.com/dea5494a6b_ga.jpg

Compare to http://archives.erfworld.com/book%203/163

That said, I wouldn't interpret either version as saying that Roger was an Archon.

Does Bonnie know Roger is working with Charlie? Perhaps some secrets are compartmentalized so that no one archon knows all the info on Charlscomm. I could see Charlie as the kind of guy who keeps secrets from himself.

In the part you didn't quote, I said that I didn't know. We don't even be certain that Roger is working for Charlie, although it seemed likely.

Janis just wants to be convinced that she's doing the right thing.

You gonna address my actual point?

Carnymancy doesn't work the way you think it does. That said, we can't be absolutely certain that Roger is an agent of Charlie. That's why I used so many waffle words.

HalfTangible

2016-06-11, 12:34 PM

Carnymancy doesn't work the way you think it does.No, you're just underestimating it.

We know from Digdoug's story that Carnymancy can be used to fake financial records to the degree that even a Moneymancer can't detect it (and in fact needed to hire Charlie to find out). We know that casters can learn multiple disciplines. We know that Charlie can create spells that defy Erfworld's logic in their sheer power. It is not that big of a stretch to presume that Charlie could find a way to turn Roger into an unwitting spy.

We've been shown on multiple occasions that Roger's position is that Parson could be more dangerous than Charlie to TGMTTA (and he's not entirely wrong). But his actions up to this point have largely been in Charlie's favor.

That said, we can't be absolutely certain that Roger is an agent of Charlie. That's why I used so many waffle words.

True.

Aquillion

2016-06-11, 06:23 PM

Carnymancy doesn't work the way you think it does. That said, we can't be absolutely certain that Roger is an agent of Charlie. That's why I used so many waffle words.Yes, based on what we saw of Roger's POV and what people have said about him, it's clear that his driving motivation is:

1. Royalism, and,
2. A belief that Parson is more dangerous than Charlie is.

These things could push him to work with Charlie on a situational basis without being an agent of Charlie the way some other units have been.

Gez

2016-06-11, 06:40 PM

Keep in mind that the panel was retconjured as danelsan pointed out. The sentence that includes the word "someone" didn't exist originally.

It did, it just was in the previous panel.

You can compare both versions of the full page here:
https://wiki.erfworld.com/File:Hvs.tCF_163.jpg

Lots of people seem to have interpreted it as meaning Roger was an archon, even though IMO it's quite obvious Chief Antium is just using a fancy way of saying "you" which precises why he's thinking about her in particular.

Sybarith

2016-06-13, 02:17 AM

It's a bit of a non-sequitor and I'm not really sure where to post this but...
I've just read book 0 for the first time (never even noticed it until today for some reason) and I was wondering:

Has it been established WHY Wanda keeps resisting any attempts made to kill Charlie? Is it related to Charlie's buds? Maybe he's the only one that can "fix" Jillian and Wanda's trying to force him to do that? Is it one of those Fate things?

Also, How much does Wanda remember from Book 0? It seems like she remembers old Jillian, more-or-less, but either she hasn't clued in to why Jillian's acting differently now and that Charlie's to blame for it, or Wanda's somehow prevented from communicating what she knows? For that matter, what is the source of Wanda's... block, I guess you could call it? Whatever restricts her from speaking about certain topics, is that just the risk of turning Bad or something or is it related to whatever Charlie did in her head? Is this ever explained? Did Wanda get just the addiction removed and Jillian's amended clause (friggin' Betsy :smallmad:) allow Charlie to change more for Jillian specifically?

If there's a FAQ for this or something, feel free to direct me to it! :smallbiggrin:

guttering flame

2016-06-13, 03:28 AM

NEO|Phyte

2016-06-13, 05:30 AM

-D-

2016-06-13, 05:56 AM

eschmenk

2016-06-13, 09:54 AM

Regarding Charlie, don't know that we've seen anything to point to another motive, but Wanda seems to be under the impression that it is Fated for the wielders of the Arkentools to band together. So naturally Fate would interfere with trying to kill an Attuned, so why bother trying?

That's wrong. Wanda thinks that Parson is the person who is fated to kill Charlie. She thinks that if anyone other than Parson tried to kill Charlie, that would amount to interfering with Fate, which would not only result in failure, but with additional bad things happening. (She equates interfering with Fate to doing things the hard way.)

Simply put, since Wanda thought that Parson is fated to kill Charlie, she wanted Parson and only Parson to try to kill Charlie. We haven't had a chance yet to see if being scolded by Marie changed the way Wanda thinks about that, yet.

HalfTangible

2016-06-13, 10:16 AM

Sybarith

2016-06-13, 10:18 AM

Thanks for the answers guys! :smallcool:

That clears up most of it, but I wasn't wondering why Wanda was still affected by the Deal of a Lifetime, I meant that she could use Jack to speak about it through proxy and explain what happened to Jillian, etc. and seems to have only expressed some of the events that happened. It almost feels like she's protecting Charlie's reputation from too much harm and I was wondering why that is. Is she preventing Jack from explaining all the details somehow because of the limits of her own agreement? Or do I have it all wrong - is Jack withholding some information on purpose, like knowledge about the buds, Jillian, etc? Since I know he technically has newfound Loyalty to Wanda, is he ordering him to do that? Or does Jack just have a very limited scope of what actually happened for some reason?

And the biggest question that wasn't answered: Is Wanda aware of what Charlie did to Jillian at the end of Book 0? Is that ever explained?

eschmenk

2016-06-13, 10:43 AM

...I meant that she could use Jack to speak about it through proxy and explain what happened to Jillian, etc...

No, I don't think she could. She can't talk to Jack about any of it, so how could she tell Jack to say something? I doubt Jack knows more than he told Parson. At least, not that he thinks that Parson would need to know.

And the biggest question that wasn't answered: Is Wanda aware of what Charlie did to Jillian at the end of Book 0? Is that ever explained?

I was pretty clear that Wanda knew that Jillian would go through roughly the same thing as Wanda did. Jillian told the Archons that Charlie would have to destroy all remaining buds in front of Wanda so she should know about that, too. There wasn't any secrecy when Jillian went to have the procedure done, so I'm sure that Wanda knew about that.

I don't understand why you think that Wanda might be trying to protect Charlie's reputation. It never came across that way to me.

Sybarith

2016-06-13, 12:54 PM

I was pretty clear that Wanda knew that Jillian would go through roughly the same thing as Wanda did. Jillian told the Archons that Charlie would have to destroy all remaining buds in front of Wanda so she should know about that, too. There wasn't any secrecy when Jillian went to have the procedure done, so I'm sure that Wanda knew about that.

I don't understand why you think that Wanda might be trying to protect Charlie's reputation. It never came across that way to me.

No, I get that Wanda knew Jillian would be "operated" on, but I wasn't sure if Wanda knows that Charlie's deal removed MORE than just the addiction on Jillian? I assumed that she didn't know this and that's why she was so surprised by Jillian's "betrayals" later on - heck, maybe Jillian actually wouldn't have acted this way if she still had her memories intact? I assume that only Jillian got the "extra attention" from Betsy because of her revised contract, right?

As for my main question, did Jack actually mention that Charlie was inside both Wanda's and Jillian's heads? I was under the impression from this (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+2/213) page that he didn't cover that topic, but it's really unclear. Maybe he did. :smallconfused:

If he did, then it makes more sense to me, but I was wondering if it was because: a) Wanda's preventing Jack from telling that part of the story for some unspecified reason (which seems unlikely, now that I think about what you've said), b) It just never occurred to Jack as important or he's respecting Wanda/Jillian's privacy, or c) he actually did cover that part and it just wasn't mentioned explicitly.

eschmenk

2016-06-13, 01:39 PM

No, I get that Wanda knew Jillian would be "operated" on, but I wasn't sure if Wanda knows that Charlie's deal removed MORE than just the addiction on Jillian? I assumed that she didn't know this and that's why she was so surprised by Jillian's "betrayals" later on - heck, maybe Jillian actually wouldn't have acted this way if she still had her memories intact? I assume that only Jillian got the "extra attention" from Betsy because of her revised contract, right?

I think Wanda went through something similar. There is a lot that we don't know, though.Some people think the nurse changed Jillian, but there is plenty of evidence that Jillian is still acting pretty much the way she was acting originally, so anything the nurse accomplished didn't seem to last. I doubt Jillian was permanently changed much beyond what she was expecting, despite how horrible the "surgery" sounded. I don't know how long her recovery might have been, though.

I think Wanda forgets that she's not a Predictomancer. She thinks she knows what Fate will make happen, then when things don't work out the way she expected, she finds ways to rationalize it and goes on to make more mistakes. That's just Wanda being Wanda, I think.

-D-

2016-06-13, 02:39 PM

No, I get that Wanda knew Jillian would be "operated" on, but I wasn't sure if Wanda knows that Charlie's deal removed MORE than just the addiction on Jillian?
Jack, noted that after the procedure the changes to her personality. I'm sure Wanda noticed too, but was mum about it due to NDA.

I assumed that she didn't know this and that's why she was so surprised by Jillian's "betrayals" later on - heck, maybe Jillian actually wouldn't have acted this way if she still had her memories intact?
I assume that only Jillian got the "extra attention" from Betsy because of her revised contract, right?
It's a worthwhile hypothesis, but no proof either way. Keep in mind until Jill breaking Wanda's spell, Wanda was pretty trustful with Jill. It's possible Wanda dabbled in Thinkamancy to "undo" damage by Charlie. Who knows, it's possible. Brother Labeler mentioned that Jill's contract was changed and he couldn't guarantee her well being.

If he did, then it makes more sense to me, but I was wondering if it was because: a) Wanda's preventing Jack from telling that part of the story for some unspecified reason (which seems unlikely, now that I think about what you've said), b) It just never occurred to Jack as important or he's respecting Wanda/Jillian's privacy, or c) he actually did cover that part and it just wasn't mentioned explicitly.
Topic probably didn't came up. But Jack didn't notice any change in Wanda.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure Charlie figured out that Wanda and Jill's Fate are interlinked. With that in mind, he probably messed up Jill to get a fabulous mess one, mess other one for free. Though Wanda wizened to that fact.

HandofShadows

2016-06-13, 03:57 PM

Jack might not be able to notice any changes in Wanda since he didn't know her beforehand.

-D-

2016-06-13, 04:21 PM

New comic.

So that is how Vinnie finds about CC.

Jack might not be able to notice any changes in Wanda since he didn't know her beforehand.
Jack also has a things for perception. He could easily realize one perception was changed.

Kornaki

2016-06-13, 05:28 PM

last we saw Ansom he was negotiating with Jetstone right? Did we ever find out what happened with that?

HalfTangible

2016-06-13, 06:09 PM

last we saw Ansom he was negotiating with Jetstone right? Did we ever find out what happened with that?

Well, we didn't see how it went in court, but we know that Traeminnis wants Parson to come negotiate personally by walking through the MK portal.

eschmenk

2016-06-13, 08:03 PM

Jack, noted that after the procedure the changes to her personality. I'm sure Wanda noticed too, but was mum about it due to NDA.

Can you give a page number. I would like to see that for myself.

Things like this (https://wiki.erfworld.com/LIAB_Prologue_28) makes it hard to believe that there was any change in Jillian's personality to see:

Jillian personally planted her megalogwiff on the city's only knight and lopped his head clean off while he squirmed. Satisfying. But her Warlords looked at her askance, even as the head was still rolling around.

"Oh right. Um, sorry." She had to remember to hold back and let them level

That's a change of personality?

Well, we didn't see how it went in court, but we know that Traeminnis wants Parson to come negotiate personally by walking through the MK portal.

Tramennis warned Ansom that he was going to publicly ridicule him for the sake of Spacerock's court. It was nice of him to warn him, though.

Despite Ansom attacking Jillian and rejecting her attempts to turn him there seemed to be some possible foreshadowing that he might be in danger of turning to Jillian. Ansom seemed to have lost any feeling that he might have had for Jillian, but seemed to be bothered by the fact that he lost his old feelings.

http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/48
http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/49
http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/50

I kind of hope that nothing much more comes of that. At some point that needs to die, I think.

Anteros

2016-06-13, 08:42 PM

hajo

2016-06-14, 04:48 AM

Some people think the nurse changed Jillian, but there is plenty of evidence
that Jillian is still acting pretty much the way she was acting originally,
so anything the nurse accomplished didn't seem to last.
I doubt Jillian was permanently changed much beyond what she was expecting,
despite how horrible the "surgery" sounded.

The 'official' purpose of the operation (https://wiki.erfworld.com/IPTSF_Text_81) was to cure Jillian of the addiction to heroine-buds.
But Charlie also removed every info she knew about him and CC, and
Betty removed a lot of things she didn't like from Jillian, e.g. aggression.

My understanding is that those are a very basic part of Jillian,
so they 'grew back', over time.

I don't know how long her recovery might have been, though.
After Jack was decrypted (https://wiki.erfworld.com/LIAB_Epilogue_02), he tells Parson (https://wiki.erfworld.com/LIAB_Epilogue_07), and also
that Jillian's personality had been changed (https://wiki.erfworld.com/Hvs.tCF_91) for a long time,
but we haven't seen her in that period.
Probably nothing much interesting happend until Jillian had recovered...

-D-

2016-06-14, 06:03 AM

Can you give a page number. I would like to see that for myself.
https://wiki.erfworld.com/Hvs.tCF_91 (When Wandamancer went comatose during Battle for Lilith).

Here is the quote

"Yes. And that he also performed another ah... operation during that time. On Sister Wanda and Princess Jillian, using a link with our Healomancer?", said Jack, glancing nervously back at the throne.

[snip]

"Well in Sister Wanda's case, the procedure certainly saved her life," said Jack. " And perhaps in Princess Jillian's as well. But what I may have neglected to tell you was that the Princess was profoundly altered by it."

So Parson knows both underwent brain surgery.

HandofShadows

2016-06-14, 07:31 AM

My understanding is that those are a very basic part of Jillian,
so they 'grew back', over time.

They came back, but they didn't come back the same way or in a healthy way either.

DigoDragon

2016-06-14, 07:48 AM

They came back, but they didn't come back the same way or in a healthy way either.

That's certainly true. At times she can be a few pikers short of a warlord bonus.

Tramennis warned Ansom that he was going to publicly ridicule him for the sake of Spacerock's court. It was nice of him to warn him, though.

It was a nice civil discussion to read between them, despite Ansom's side having croaked their mutual brother and father. If Tramennis gets his chance to ridicule Parson, I hope he's cool and collected through it.

HandofShadows

2016-06-14, 09:18 AM

That's certainly true. At times she can be a few pikers short of a warlord bonus.

You should get rep or a cookie for this. Or better, both. :smallcool:

eschmenk

2016-06-14, 11:51 AM

They came back, but they didn't come back the same way or in a healthy way either.

But at least they probably didn't come back any worse. The torture sessions and hero buds would have already messed them up very badly, so they didn't have much to loose at that point. And yes, the nurse destroyed more of Jillian, but that apparently grew back.

It's a fallacy to blame whatever is wrong with Jillian or Wanda on the surgery. They were both pretty weird even before they because addicted to the hero buds. We can't be sure how much different they would behave now if none of that (hero buds and cure) had happened.

Chromascope3D

2016-06-14, 11:54 AM

I got my hopes up for an actual comic, but this was pretty good as far as text updates go.

I think Vinnie might be my favorite character now that Jack and Ansom both got decrypted. Either him or Stanley.

And to think that we elected not to name this thread after him because we didn't think he'd be important. :P

Cazero

2016-06-14, 11:57 AM

And to think that we elected not to name this thread after him because we didn't think he'd be important. :P

Let's fill a dozen pages with useless speculations and correct that !

Lethologica

2016-06-14, 12:10 PM

That's certainly true. At times she can be a few pikers short of a warlord bonus.
'A few pikers short of a stack' seems like the correct form, but I really appreciate this. :smallbiggrin:

guttering flame

2016-06-14, 12:23 PM

And to think that we elected not to name this thread after him because we didn't think he'd be important. :P

He's still not important.

HandofShadows

2016-06-14, 01:19 PM

But at least they probably didn't come back any worse. The torture sessions and hero buds would have already messed them up very badly, so they didn't have much to loose at that point. And yes, the nurse destroyed more of Jillian, but that apparently grew back.

It's a fallacy to blame whatever is wrong with Jillian or Wanda on the surgery. They were both pretty weird even before they because addicted to the hero buds. We can't be sure how much different they would behave now if none of that (hero buds and cure) had happened.

Actually it has been clearly shown that Jillian is very much worse than she used to be. She had much better control of her anger and planned much better and more as well as cared about her subordinates much more. Wanda was a relatively kind loving person who wanted to understand things.

DigoDragon

2016-06-14, 03:24 PM

You should get rep or a cookie for this. Or better, both. :smallcool:

'A few pikers short of a stack' seems like the correct form, but I really appreciate this. :smallbiggrin:

Hee hee, thanks. I thought about the correct form, but the weird form seemed funnier. ^^; Speaking of cookies, my daughter recently took her vacation to grandma's house, but forgot to take her not-so-secret stash of Oreos with her. Mwahaha!

Actually it has been clearly shown that Jillian is very much worse than she used to be. She had much better control of her anger and planned much better and more as well as cared about her subordinates much more. Wanda was a relatively kind loving person who wanted to understand things.

I can't picture Wanda with a toothy, friendly smile and it not coming off as creepy. :smallredface:

HalfTangible

2016-06-14, 04:11 PM

Let's fill a dozen pages with useless speculations and correct that !

Ya sure we won't need 14?

SZbNAhL

2016-06-14, 04:14 PM

Ya sure we won't need 14?

Seeing as how this is page 39 and we start a new thread when we hit page 50, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't need 14. Unless I'm missing something?

Edit: yep, I was missing something. Ignore me.

HalfTangible

2016-06-14, 05:03 PM

Seeing as how this is page 39 and we start a new thread when we hit page 50, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't need 14. Unless I'm missing something?

That was a joke.

And it could have continued to the next thread

eschmenk

2016-06-14, 06:27 PM

Actually it has been clearly shown that Jillian is very much worse than she used to be. She had much better control of her anger and planned much better and more as well as cared about her subordinates much more. Wanda was a relatively kind loving person who wanted to understand things.

I think you need to reread Book 0 and Book 3. Jillian kept loosing her temper in in front of King Banhammer in Book 0. At one point she pushed so hard that she briefly thought he was disbanding her. She still cares enough about her subordinates to be upset when Prince Albert killed one of them. Nothing you pointed to indicates any changes at all in Jillian.

Wanda is definitely more mature and powerful than she was in the beginning of Book 0 and her family is gone so we can't see her interacting with them, but the surgery had nothing to do with either of those things. She still wants to understand things and she still loves to play with dead people as if they were dolls and seems to love them in a very possessive way. Wanda also seemed to be in love with Jillian, but again, that seems to be very possessive. So, yes, some things unrelated to the surgery changed Wanda and she obviously is going to have scars from her dealings with Olive Branch, but other than fixing her addiction and saving her life, I don't see any changes in Wanda that seem to be connected to the surgery.

Aquillion

2016-06-15, 01:15 AM

-D-

2016-06-15, 04:07 AM

That or Rob added mind surgery and forgot to change her character between versions.

guttering flame

2016-06-15, 04:55 AM

-D-

2016-06-15, 05:29 AM

Jillian's love for Ansom could be the result of the brain surgery. She hated everything royal before that. The sado-maso relationship she has with Wanda is also different than what they had before. Then they became close despite the torture, not because of it. Also, the mind control spell she put on her might not have worked before Charlie weakened her mind's defenses.
I doubt that she loved Ansom because of lobotomy. Thing about Jill is that she loves whomever she feels like it. Ansom was just a random handsome dude. She hates Nobility because, she loves freedom and Nobility is bound in rituals and also her Fate.

You might be right about Wanda and Jill relationship, but I doubt Charlie can make you less or more immune to Suggestion spell.

Razade

2016-06-15, 05:37 AM

It's odd, because the ending to that story describes what was done to Jillian's mind in very, very dramatic terms, and Wanda's later focus on decrypting her (and her insistence that it is strategically vital to release her from whatever Charlie did) also plays up its importance.

But nothing we saw in Book 0 supports any of that, when compared to Jillian in the modern day, yes.

The only conclusion I can draw is that parts of Book 0 are either incomplete or filtered through an unreliable narrator (reflecting what Jillian currently remembers rather than what actually happened and what she was actually like.) It's obvious that there's some big secret from that time period that we weren't shown; nothing that we saw them discover about Charlie would remotely support the degree of obsession he had with covering the entire incident up, and the constant hints that it's a big deal in the main plot wouldn't really make sense if it was just something we'd already seen.

Book 0 is confirmed by author not to be finished. From its write up on the site

This is a prequel novel, looking far back in time to the origins of several of the characters in the series. New readers should probably not start with this one but jump to it after reading Book 1 (and possibly Book 2). The book is only about 2/3 written, and updates are planned to resume after Book 3 is complete. Pages are 1000-2500 words of prose, with one black & white illustration by Xin Ye.

eschmenk

2016-06-15, 03:25 PM

The only conclusion I can draw is that parts of Book 0 are either incomplete or filtered through an unreliable narrator (reflecting what Jillian currently remembers rather than what actually happened and what she was actually like.) It's obvious that there's some big secret from that time period that we weren't shown; nothing that we saw them discover about Charlie would remotely support the degree of obsession he had with covering the entire incident up, and the constant hints that it's a big deal in the main plot wouldn't really make sense if it was just something we'd already seen.

I disagree. I think it could just be that Charlie is still very vulnerable to the hero buds and only Jillian and Wanda can understand how powerful the temptation could be.

Note that Jillian was very worried about how vulnerable she would be even after Charlie's treatment (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%200/80):

Jillian sat up and looked at her. “How is it now?”

“Better,” said Wanda. “I do not actively need a bud.”

“I do,” said Jillian, bitterly. There‘d been dark hours at night when she was certain she‘d be calling out for the Archons at any moment, and bargaining for buds. Whatever Charlie wanted. Only the thought of the flower as an enemy got her through. That, and having to look at Chynna and admit her weakness. In those thin, watery moments of will, she generally got up and did calisthenic exercises until she dropped from exhaustion. That worked in the moment, but the need never went away.

“I would accept one, though,” said Wanda, looking at her with shame. “If you offered me a heroine bud, I would place it in my hair at once.”

They locked eyes for several moments. “That‘s terrifying.”

“It‘s the truth. I think you‘ll be left in a similar state.”

“And if Charlie wants to control either of us, he really just has to dangle a flower,” said Jillian, looking up into the blue sky and shooting a glare at the distant blue dots. “I can‘t keep saying no forever.”

So the "cure" isn't really a complete cure. That's why Jillian thought it was so important to force Charlie to destroy his gardens and stockpiles. I don't think that anyone who hadn't been addicted could appreciate that, so Jack wouldn't have understood.

It would have been extremely important to Charlie to keep people from finding out that he was incapacitated, but even more important to keep people from learning about his addiction. That's a huge vulnerability that he has that Parson theoretically might find a way to exploit if he was aware of it.

I wouldn't rule out the possibility that there is more that we haven't been told yet and I especially wouldn't rule out Wanda having additional reasons for thinking it was urgent to croak and decrypt Jillian. I think it's even conceivable that Wanda just wanted to decrypt Jillian to force Jillian to love her and was just lying to Parson about not being able to tell Parson the reason. Still, I don't think there needs to be anything in addition to what was in Book 0. Things already make sense to me.

ADDED: I suppose it's possible that Wanda learned and remembered a lot from her link with Charlie and assumes incorrectly or at least hopes that Jillian did, too.

HalfTangible

2016-06-15, 07:23 PM

I disagree. I think it could just be that Charlie is still very vulnerable to the hero buds and only Jillian and Wanda can understand how powerful the temptation could be.

Note that Jillian was very worried about how vulnerable she would be even after Charlie's treatment (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%200/80):

So the "cure" isn't really a complete cure. That's why Jillian thought it was so important to force Charlie to destroy his gardens and stockpiles. I don't think that anyone who hadn't been addicted could appreciate that, so Jack wouldn't have understood.

It would have been extremely important to Charlie to keep people from finding out that he was incapacitated, but even more important to keep people from learning about his addiction. That's a huge vulnerability that he has that Parson theoretically might find a way to exploit if he was aware of it.

I wouldn't rule out the possibility that there is more that we haven't been told yet and I especially wouldn't rule out Wanda having additional reasons for thinking it was urgent to croak and decrypt Jillian. I think it's even conceivable that Wanda just wanted to decrypt Jillian to force Jillian to love her and was just lying to Parson about not being able to tell Parson the reason. Still, I don't think there needs to be anything in addition to what was in Book 0. Things already make sense to me.

If that was the only thing driving Charlie then he would've just had Jillian and Wanda killed asap.

I think that Jillian's changed behavior from Book 0 is at least in part because for most of that time, she was Chief Warlord of a side. Jillian in Book 1 was a barbarian who had nothing to fight for other than croaking Stanley and desperately wanted to be anything but royalty. Book 2 and 3, Jillian has a side again, but she's the ruler, meaning she calls the big shots.

eschmenk

2016-06-15, 08:00 PM

If that was the only thing driving Charlie then he would've just had Jillian and Wanda killed asap.

I don't know. He couldn't leave any witnesses, so that would mean taking out the entire side. No doubt Charlie would have been very interested to see how Jillian and Wanda recovered and he had no reason to think the Deal of a Lifetime would have any holes. Also, it's just not like Charlie to get involved in a battle so directly if he could help it. Still, there might be more to it. Who knows?

I think that Jillian's changed behavior from Book 0 is at least in part because for most of that time, she was Chief Warlord of a side. Jillian in Book 1 was a barbarian who had nothing to fight for other than croaking Stanley and desperately wanted to be anything but royalty. Book 2 and 3, Jillian has a side again, but she's the ruler, meaning she calls the big shots.

Oh, sure. Since becoming ruler, her signamancy has changed, too.

Razade

2016-06-17, 10:49 PM

Legato Endless

2016-06-17, 11:38 PM

Too much dialogue for my taste.

Hopefully Rob will retconjure some of it away before the second half of the spread goes up on Sunday.

ryuplaneswalker

2016-06-18, 06:48 AM

So much happened in this comic update I actually don't think it can fit in the spoilers. Man, all you people who complain about text updates don't update as much as comic updates? You're so vindicated today. I apologize for ever doubting you.

Yep because this needs dialogue to understand what is going on.

guttering flame

2016-06-18, 06:53 AM

Can't make out if she's lonely or pissed.

Anteros

2016-06-18, 07:50 AM

So much happened in this comic update I actually don't think it can fit in the spoilers. Man, all you people who complain about text updates don't update as much as comic updates? You're so vindicated today. I apologize for ever doubting you.

Just because this particular update was bad, doesn't mean that the text updates aren't typically worse than the comic ones.

HalfTangible

2016-06-18, 07:52 AM

Eh. It'll probably read better as part of the archive.

Still would've preferred a more substantial comic, or a text update.

-D-

2016-06-18, 08:42 AM

Eh. It'll probably read better as part of the archive.

Still would've preferred a more substantial comic, or a text update.
Would be better, if it didn't took that much time to be uploaded...

hajo

2016-06-18, 08:43 AM

Eh. It'll probably read better as part of the archive.
Still would've preferred a more substantial comic, or a text update.
Erfworld forum says that this page is kind-of the first half of a double-page.
So, the dialog between Jed and Bonnie should get interesting :smallamused:

Also, power-outages at Rob's place...

HandofShadows

2016-06-18, 08:47 AM

Can't make out if she's lonely or pissed.

Lonely certainly. I think put out might be a good term rather than pissed. And here we Jed going to do his job. Jed was Parson's idea, right?

DigoDragon

2016-06-18, 08:49 AM

Can't make out if she's lonely or pissed.

With a chiseled chin like Jed's, wouldn't you be enviously pissed too? :smalltongue:

eschmenk

2016-06-18, 10:08 AM

Stanley goes back to his office and finds Bonnie wearing a bikini and drinking piña coladas in the hot tub? Probably not, but a talk between Bonnie and Jed would probably be a good thing.

-D-

2016-06-18, 10:33 AM

Erfworld forum says that this page is kind-of the first half of a double-page.
So, the dialog between Jed and Bonnie should get interesting :smallamused:

Also, power-outages at Rob's place...
He should get an UPS... or a generator, he has the money now...

eschmenk

2016-06-18, 05:13 PM

Lonely certainly. I think put out might be a good term rather than pissed. And here we Jed going to do his job. Jed was Parson's idea, right?

I think she's annoyed that she's having to provide security by herself and upset that nobody else is taking things more seriously. She's used to CC's much more corporate professionalism. And yes, she's lonely, too. Jed is going to have to get her to relax. At the same time, she might figure out that Jed knows a lot about Erfworld and what's going on. She might use what she learned from CC to figure out how to best use Jed for defense or he might provide her with valuable intelligence.

And maybe we will finally learn why Charlie considered Bonnie (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/144) to be "his misreckoning, the mistake he could not bear to discard."

I wouldn't say that Jed was Parson's idea because Parson was hoping for more of a huge battle mech. Parson never had a chance to even understand Jed. Parson talked about Jed in the MK because he was afraid that Jed might even be dangerous to GK, but he remained in the MK until shortly before the battle in the MK broke out. At that point he was preoccupied with Wanda. As a result, Parson knows very little about Jed.

Razade

2016-06-18, 05:31 PM

Yep because this needs dialogue to understand what is going on.

Except that wasn't what I was talking about so I don't see how its relevant? I was pointing out that, and this isn't the first one of these, comic updates have been worse at moving the story than the text updates. They get a lot of flack here but the comics with...no movement at all get an Apologetics treatment.

danelsan

2016-06-18, 08:16 PM

Wayson

2016-06-19, 11:24 AM

I don't necessarily mind slow-for-plot-moving comic updates, especially considering that the team has been able to keep the schedule going well, but despite the quality of the artwork I actually prefer text-updates-with-a-few-illustrations than full comic pages.

I admit that I'm surprised and pleased that the schedule has been (mostly) adhered to so far. As long as the plot advances I'm ok with either full comic or text plus a few illustrations; this page is a good example of what I don't want.

On a side note, the fact that Rob has started counting any 'art-intensive' comic as a splash page bodes ill for future large splash pages. It's also a reminder of why I don't donate to Erfworld Kickstarters.

Anteros

2016-06-19, 03:31 PM

-D-

2016-06-19, 04:02 PM

Except that wasn't what I was talking about so I don't see how its relevant? I was pointing out that, and this isn't the first one of these, comic updates have been worse at moving the story than the text updates. They get a lot of flack here but the comics with...no movement at all get an Apologetics treatment.
An exception doesn't make a rule.

A picture is worth a thousand words, and reading through text is a slog. If Rob was more generous, this would be a free update, and we'd get several pages. Because it was paid, multiple times by Kickstarters and Tools.

@Anterous: Pretty much in full agreement.

slayerx

2016-06-19, 07:36 PM

An exception doesn't make a rule.

A picture is worth a thousand words, and reading through text is a slog. If Rob was more generous, this would be a free update, and we'd get several pages. Because it was paid, multiple times by Kickstarters and Tools.

@Anterous: Pretty much in full agreement.

Unless you are one of the tools, then this IS a free update. If you are, then you are free to stop giving them money.

Bobb

2016-06-20, 12:34 AM

All hail Ansom, Ruler of the Recluses, Monarch of Mystery, Overlord of Obfuscation, Chief of Concealment, Sovereign of Sneaking, Potentate of Privacy!

None know of his journey and none know his thoughts. The very readers themselves, omniscient as they oft are, are left in the dark as unto his doings!

And his sword shall cleave the dreaded POV, which must retreat and lick it's wounds upon some other actor in this story.

Praise his secrecy.

The Glyphstone

2016-06-20, 01:54 AM

Stanley goes back to his office and finds Bonnie wearing a bikini and drinking piña coladas in the hot tub? Probably not, but a talk between Bonnie and Jed would probably be a good thing.

Well, you were half right.

-D-

2016-06-20, 04:01 AM

Unless you are one of the tools, then this IS a free update. If you are, then you are free to stop giving them money.
I was one of the Tools (my Avatar is a Ruler level reward), but then I got used. I didn't like it.

All hail Ansom, Ruler of the Recluses, Monarch of Mystery, Overlord of Obfuscation, Chief of Concealment, Sovereign of Sneaking, Potentate of Privacy!

None know of his journey and none know his thoughts. The very readers themselves, omniscient as they oft are, are left in the dark as unto his doings!

Praise his secrecy.
Praise him!

But Ansom is really an enigma wrapped in mystery, which is another way of saying - bland as all hell, get out. His blandness makes plot run towards a new POV.

Killer Angel

2016-06-20, 05:59 AM

I like Jed's style... :smallbiggrin:

-D-

2016-06-20, 06:04 AM

I like Jed's style... :smallbiggrin:
Yes, first you get them drunk, then you get them in the bathtub, and then... :smallamused: (you give them pep talk to improve their life)

hajo

2016-06-20, 06:07 AM

Considering that Jed used just a few words to get a lonely girl into a hot tub,
and listening, this was a huge success :smallamused:

Now, I want to see/hear the rest of their talk :smallbiggrin:

-D-

2016-06-20, 06:19 AM

Considering that Jed used just a few words to get a lonely girl into a hot tub,
and listening, this was a huge success :smallamused:

Now, I want to see/hear the rest of their talk :smallbiggrin:
Especially for a permanently static, sentient building.

And now we cut back to Jillian... :smalltongue:

ryuplaneswalker

2016-06-20, 07:20 AM

Except that wasn't what I was talking about so I don't see how its relevant? I was pointing out that, and this isn't the first one of these, comic updates have been worse at moving the story than the text updates. They get a lot of flack here but the comics with...no movement at all get an Apologetics treatment.

Learning about a character is story, in fact learning about the people which the plot happens to is very likely one of the most important things that can happen in a story. Else it is all just a bunch of events about random people. That page moved the plot forward in the way it needed to. It told us what this character, who is very important because she was one of the highest level anchors outside of the Fox Force.

but no lets skip that crap and skip to the next fight, I am sure we will understand what is going on and who everyone is.

DigoDragon

2016-06-20, 07:37 AM

Well, you were half right.

And it's the fun half. :3

Considering that Jed used just a few words to get a lonely girl into a hot tub,
and listening, this was a huge success

Jed is a pretty interesting "character". He's like one of those buildings in a Civ game with a special that improves morale. I like how he can get people to come inside and open up their feelings. The rum helps, I'm sure.

Bonnie is going to have to get used to a lack of procedure here or she's gonna go nuts... or become an alcoholic.

Yuki Akuma

2016-06-20, 10:42 AM

And it's the fun half. :3

Jed is a pretty interesting "character". He's like one of those buildings in a Civ game with a special that improves morale. I like how he can get people to come inside and open up their feelings. The rum helps, I'm sure.

Bonnie is going to have to get used to a lack of procedure here or she's gonna go nuts... or become an alcoholic.

Or institute some procedures with the help of Chief Warlord Parson, whenever he turns up again.

-D-

2016-06-20, 11:16 AM

Or institute some procedures with the help of Chief Warlord Parson, whenever he turns up again.
So, Book 5 or Book 6 :smalltongue:

DigoDragon

2016-06-20, 11:27 AM

Or institute some procedures with the help of Chief Warlord Parson, whenever he turns up again.

It might help for situations when Parson isn't available to lead forces. ...which can happen quite suddenly and often. :3

So, Book 5 or Book 6 :smalltongue:

*Snerk*

I'm hoping Parson gets out of jail by July, and then can help win the trial case by showing up.

-D-

2016-06-20, 12:01 PM

*Snerk*
I'm hoping Parson gets out of jail by July, and then can help win the trial case by showing up.
No, they are having a slumber party for Ansom in FAQ in July. Seriously, do you even read Erfworld.

Seriously, Rob's writing is looking more and more like the """""writing""""" in Phantom Menace. It also had the problem of tooo many threads going around at the same time.

HalfTangible

2016-06-20, 12:09 PM

No, they are having a slumber party for Ansom in FAQ in July. Seriously, do you even read Erfworld.

Seriously, Rob's writing is looking more and more like the """""writing""""" in Phantom Menace. It also had the problem of tooo many threads going around at the same time.Rob's made a lot of writing mistakes over the course of books 2 and 3, but nowhere near the mess that was the Star Wars prequels.

Phantom Menace's writing was nowhere near as bad as people claim it is *cough*ATTACKOFTHECLONESWASSOMUCHWORSEIT'SNOTEVENF UNNY*cough* and its main problem was a demonstrable misunderstanding of what made Star Wars entertaining in the first place. A secondary result of that problem was a heavy focus on political dealings. Sure, political dealings EXIST in book 3, but they're used as a vehicle for the story, not the story in and of itself.

-D-

2016-06-20, 02:58 PM

Rob's made a lot of writing mistakes over the course of books 2 and 3, but nowhere near the mess that was the Star Wars prequels.

Phantom Menace's writing was nowhere near as bad as people claim it is *cough*ATTACKOFTHECLONESWASSOMUCHWORSEIT'SNOTEVENF UNNY*cough* and its main problem was a demonstrable misunderstanding of what made Star Wars entertaining in the first place. A secondary result of that problem was a heavy focus on political dealings. Sure, political dealings EXIST in book 3, but they're used as a vehicle for the story, not the story in and of itself.
Yeah, that's why I said resemble. Not equivalent. The Phantom Menace had a problem of having to jump between:

Slightly comedic with Jar Jar
Anakin returning
Lamenting death of a hero
Escape

I give Rob this one, they aren't different in tone, so that's good. But seriously there are too many side plots, jumping around all the time. But let's enumerate some threads

Parson in prison (not counting TV intrigue)
Wanda's trial
Stanley's elf fufiling prophecy
Gobwin Knob
Charlie's PoV

HalfTangible

2016-06-20, 03:08 PM

Yeah, that's why I said resemble. Not equivalent. The Phantom Menace had a problem of having to jump between:

Slightly comedic with Jar Jar
Anakin returning
Lamenting death of a hero
Escape

I give Rob this one, they aren't different in tone, so that's good. But seriously there are too many side plots, jumping around all the time. But let's enumerate some threads

Parson in prison (not counting TV intrigue)
Wanda's trial
Stanley's elf fufiling prophecy
Gobwin Knob
Charlie's PoV
The key difference is that none of the four plots in TPM's ending had anything to do with each other; what happened at Jarjar's battle didn't influence Darth Maul's duel with the Jedi in any meaningful way. We can't honestly say the same about, for example, TV intrigue and Faq, or GK and Wanda's trial. They're all connected and affecting one another in some fashion.

(also, the 'elf fulfilling prophecy' bit is done already, innit?)

DigoDragon

2016-06-20, 03:13 PM

Fair point, it does jump around a lot. Now Bonnie bonding with Jed is the latest.

(not counting TV intrigue)

I did like this one, particularly with Caesar unraveling the mystery of recent events. Plus it isn't a large leap to switch to and from Parson's plot.

Wayson

2016-06-20, 09:10 PM

I give Rob this one, they aren't different in tone, so that's good. But seriously there are too many side plots, jumping around all the time. But let's enumerate some threads

Parson in prison (not counting TV intrigue)
Wanda's trial
Stanley's elf fufiling prophecy
Gobwin Knob
Charlie's PoV

Not to forget:

* Jetstone diplomacy w/ Ansom
* Jillian/FAQ (separate from TV intrigue)
* Spacerock (gun production, Sizemore as Chief Caster, etc)
* MK intrigue (Thinkamancer traitor, civil war in the making, etc)

And probably others that I've forgotten. There're a ton of plot threads here, and a ton more still dangling from Book 0 that will likely never be finished since Rob appears to have put that project on a back burner in the deep freezer.

RowenMorland

2016-06-21, 12:32 AM

Comparing film media with written media that way is a bit harsh. A good Ian M Banks book can have a lot more irons in the fire then a film can. You read a book at your own pace and don't get hurried along, or alternatively you can read it intensely. Of course reading a webcomic by the update is a bit different from reading or watching a completed work.

-D-

2016-06-21, 05:18 AM

The key difference is that none of the four plots in TPM's ending had anything to do with each other; what happened at Jarjar's battle didn't influence Darth Maul's duel with the Jedi in any meaningful way. We can't honestly say the same about, for example, TV intrigue and Faq, or GK and Wanda's trial. They're all connected and affecting one another in some fashion.

(also, the 'elf fulfilling prophecy' bit is done already, innit?)
The problem with them was that they were intertwined in Phantom Menace as well, you can't remove either of them without others working, that's why Phantom Menace ended with so many different plot threads. Each one served as prelude to the others. For example Anakin destroying the droid ship from within disables the droids and allows Gungans to win.

That said, overall, the whole Jestone/Ansom parley could have been removed without impacting much. Not sure why they had to pull Ansom into FAQ? Probably something to do with TV rebellion.

('elf fulfilling prophecy' is my way of saying Stanley and Elves plot line)

Zalabim

2016-06-21, 05:26 AM

The problem with them was that they were intertwined in Phantom Menace as well, you can't remove either of them without others working, that's why Phantom Menace ended with so many different plot threads. Each one served as prelude to the others. For example Anakin destroying the droid ship from within disables the droids and allows Gungans to win.

That said, overall, the whole Jestone/Ansom parley could have been removed without impacting much. Not sure why they had to pull Ansom into FAQ? Probably something to do with TV rebellion.

('elf fulfilling prophecy' is my way of saying Stanley and Elves plot line)

How many pages did that even get? I'd say it pretty much *was* removed, as far as the audience perspective is concerned. We don't really know the resolution to that yet to know if it's important.

-D-

2016-06-21, 07:06 AM

How many pages did that even get? I'd say it pretty much *was* removed, as far as the audience perspective is concerned. We don't really know the resolution to that yet to know if it's important.
Except just a few comics ago, it was re-introduced.

danelsan

2016-06-21, 07:49 AM

Learning about a character is story, in fact learning about the people which the plot happens to is very likely one of the most important things that can happen in a story. Else it is all just a bunch of events about random people. That page moved the plot forward in the way it needed to. It told us what this character, who is very important because she was one of the highest level anchors outside of the Fox Force.

While I agree, people do complain a lot when a text update does the same, so it is reasonable to expect the same reaction when a comic update, which generally has lower density of information, does it.

danelsan

2016-06-21, 07:52 AM

Except just a few comics ago, it was re-introduced.

Then maybe wait to see the impact it will have before declaring it could be removed with little impact?

halfeye

2016-06-21, 07:54 AM

-D-

2016-06-21, 09:16 AM

Then maybe wait to see the impact it will have before declaring it could be removed with little impact?
That's the point, I said it could have been removed. Not, it can be removed. Now, Ansom is again in the mix. Seriously, I'm not sure where Jetstone story is going anyway, and I have no reasons to care.

And to be honest, I could see less of Prince Blandsom. My guess, it's probably either still doing diplomacy or it's an attempt to free Wanda. I want to know what happens to Parson and Jack, Wanda's Fate doesn't interest me in the slightest.

The whole narration feels spread way too thin, like Avengers 2 but with ten more characters thrown in.

hajo

2016-06-21, 10:31 AM

the whole Jestone/Ansom parley could have been removed without impacting much.
Not sure why they had to pull Ansom into FAQ?
Maybe Ansom just had to be away from Spacerock, so Jed
could convince Stanley to go out and hire the Juggle elves ?

-D-

2016-06-21, 11:07 AM

Maybe Ansom just had to be away from Spacerock, so Jed
could convince Stanley to go out and hire the Juggle elves ?

Well no, in that case, keep him in Jetstone as rAnsom :smalltongue: He was essentially a prisoner there.

Non meta: Jed shows displeasure because Ansom left. He wanted a high level Warlord to guard him. That's why Jed nudged Stanley to go get elves.

HalfTangible

2016-06-21, 12:43 PM

Welf

2016-06-21, 04:20 PM

While I agree, people do complain a lot when a text update does the same, so it is reasonable to expect the same reaction when a comic update, which generally has lower density of information, does it.

I wonder if the text updates had a bad influence on Rob's writing. When there were almost only comic updates back in book 1 he had to be much more focused on what he put in the story. Each panel was valuable and got more focus. Now a lot of information can be put in text updates. I think that has led to sloppy editing with too many side story that got out of control. We could see that in book 2 when the side of Haggar was introduced, got front page billing and didn't really went anywhere.

Jasdoif

2016-06-21, 11:05 PM

I wonder if the text updates had a bad influence on Rob's writing. When there were almost only comic updates back in book 1 he had to be much more focused on what he put in the story. Each panel was valuable and got more focus. Now a lot of information can be put in text updates. I think that has led to sloppy editing with too many side story that got out of control. We could see that in book 2 when the side of Haggar was introduced, got front page billing and didn't really went anywhere.I think it's more likely that during the text updates between book 1 and book 2, Rob discovered he liked Erfworld's setting more than the story he was planning on telling in it; and ever since his enthusiasm (and effort) has more apparent in the worldbuilding and the side projects than in the main story itself.

hajo

2016-06-22, 05:53 AM

Non meta: Jed shows displeasure because Ansom left.
He wanted a high level Warlord to guard him.
That's why Jed nudged Stanley to go get elves.
I meant, sending Ansom away was needed plotwise to get Stanley going for the Juggles.
If Ansom had stayed in Jetstone, Stanley might have said "we have one of the highest-level warlords right here".

Maybe Ansom will return shortly, with no diplomatic success, so he can go back
to being 'just' a regular leader/warlord.
And give Bonnie all the competence, discipline and procedure she ever wants :smallamused:

-D-

2016-06-24, 12:32 PM

New comic (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/171).

Much ado about nothing.

hajo

2016-06-24, 01:12 PM

Much ado about nothing.
More like 'much talk, little action'.

But the picture at the bottom indicates that something happened in FAQ.
I guess Jillian somehow captured Ansom, causing the dwagon to counterattack.

I wonder why, and what the consequences might be, regarding the truce with CC.
Capture clearly is 'material damage', but the megalo might heal.

OTOH, does that even apply between GK and FAQ ?
This needs another reading of that treaty (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/30).

eschmenk

2016-06-24, 01:18 PM

I don't know what Ansom thought he was doing, but I think the bottom picture is hilarious.

OTOH, does that even apply between GK and FAQ ?
This needs another reading of that treaty (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/30).

IIRC, the treaty was pretty clear that GK couldn't fight against Faq, except defensively, and couldn't even do that against Jillian. It didn't put any limits on what Faq could do.

DigoDragon

2016-06-24, 01:18 PM

Well, could of done with a little less talking, but at least the Don is on the right track? Something is rotten in Den... in Faq. Yes, faq.

Douglas

2016-06-24, 01:56 PM

Interesting speculation about the truth of Charlie's bounty. I'm actually wondering if it's correct, it really would be in Charlie's style to do that.

Anteros

2016-06-24, 01:57 PM

Seems like we might be building up to something actually happening in the next 10 comics or so.

halfeye

2016-06-24, 02:10 PM

New comic (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/171).

Much ado about nothing.

<edit Urg, caught out by the new page again. Must think harder.>

Mostly.

However, it's interesting that in the end graphic Jillian has Ansom in chains again, that's new. How did Ansom get from Trammenis's court to Faq or wherever?

Anteros

2016-06-24, 02:15 PM

<edit Urg, caught out by the new page again. Must think harder.>

Mostly.

However, it's interesting that in the end graphic Jillian has Ansom in chains again, that's new. How did Ansom get from Trammenis's court to Faq or wherever?

Weren't they having a parley the last time we saw them? It was in one of Vinnie's POVs.

hajo

2016-06-24, 02:19 PM

Weren't they having a parley the last time we saw them?
It was in one of Vinnie's POVs.
Ansom was flying in to FAQ (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/168), most likely on his diplomatic mission,
but the update ended before the parley actually started.

halfeye

2016-06-24, 02:36 PM

Ansom was flying in to FAQ (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/168), most likely on his diplomatic mission,
but the update ended before the parley actually started.
Yeah, that's good, thanks for that reminder.

I still want to know how the deal with Trammenis went, or didn't.

Anteros

2016-06-24, 02:46 PM

Yeah, that's good, thanks for that reminder.

I still want to know how the deal with Trammenis went, or didn't.

I think we already know, right? He said he wouldn't deal unless Parson came there in person.

eschmenk

2016-06-24, 04:43 PM

I think we already know, right? He said he wouldn't deal unless Parson came there in person.

Yes. Trammenis also warned Ansom that he planned to mock Ansom in front of Spacerock's court, but I doubt anything could have come out of that. I assume that, after getting nowhere in Spacerock, Ansom flew to Faq to try there.

Wayson

2016-06-24, 04:46 PM

Seems like we might be building up to something actually happening in the next 10 comics or so.

Parson might go through the portal leave his cell any month now.

DigoDragon

2016-06-24, 07:56 PM

I don't know... I would think that Ansom knows he'd get captured if he went to faq. What if this is part of a plan?

eschmenk

2016-06-24, 08:10 PM

I don't know... I would think that Ansom knows he'd get captured if he went to faq. What if this is part of a plan?

Why would he have known that? The reason he was captured last time (Jillian was in love with him and wanted to save him from his decrypted state) doesn't exist anymore based on what Jillian told him as they were falling to the ground. Is there some other reason he would have known about?

BTW, captured or not, he has a heck of a lot more money to dangle in front of her this time, too. I think that he was probably trying to buy her away from TV and CC.

I suppose it could be a plan, though. It could be that Ansom was captured so that no one worries about the fact that he's there. It does look like he might have cost GK at least 5,000,000 Shmuckers, paid to CC, and that might have tipped off Charlie that he's there. But if it was just a matter of self-defense, then he didn't. Also, Charlie probably couldn't conceive of anyone throwing away 5,000,000 Shmuckers as part of a ruse, so even if the money was paid, it could be an attempt to ensure that Charlie doesn't worry. :smallconfused:

I don't think we know enough yet to figure out what's going on.

Bobb

2016-06-24, 08:37 PM

You know, this isn't current events but shouldn't Ossomer put to rest all the nasty speculation that the decrypted are nothing but autonomons.

It seems rather a strange thing he should be completely forgotten.

DigoDragon

2016-06-24, 10:29 PM

I don't think we know enough yet to figure out what's going on.

We don't, but I'm speculating that there might be an interesting plan Ansom has here. True, Jillian says she doesn't love him, but maybe Ansom knows her better... or just thinks he does.

eschmenk

2016-06-25, 09:04 AM

We don't, but I'm speculating that there might be an interesting plan Ansom has here. True, Jillian says she doesn't love him, but maybe Ansom knows her better... or just thinks he does.

He should know better now. Although, with Jillian, the manacles could be a sign of affection. :smallamused: I don't think she's ever been kinky that way with him before, although there may have been some play acting going on.

slayerx

2016-06-25, 09:11 AM

Interesting speculation about the truth of Charlie's bounty. I'm actually wondering if it's correct, it really would be in Charlie's style to do that.

Its most likely not correct; We know that there are some incorrect elements to their speculation. First we do know that Charlie DOES indeed pay out bounty's as he paid Jetstone for the archons; he paid them enough to promote an heir. Not to mention that Charlie has been funding Jillian, and thus he has been spending more money on her than transylvito.

Second its not really charlie's style to just go and wipe out sides without being paid to do it; afterall as he pointed out to parson, he has the means to wipe out GK but he chooses not to... most likely he doesn't take such actions because it would reveal to other sides just how dangerous Charlie is; Charlie wants to do business with other sides not have them unite against him. NOt to mention that Parson has managed to made ceasar paranoid about charlie's use of guns; unlike him, we know that Charlie has been trying to keep his arsenal a secret and thus would not use it in the field unless he needed too. In a way I feel like Ceasar/Ben/Bunny are not really thinking all the way through... you have to spend money in order to make money; If Charlie pays out the 300k for Parson he not only gets the prisoner he wants, but he could essentially be buying his way back into the good graces of the royal sides, which would give him more business and thus more cash over time... Though one source of their error is the fact that they have no idea that Charlie is so insanely wealthy that 300k is something he can easily cover

Third, WE know that Jillian has no plans to make any kind of move on Transylvito. Jillian's plans are to conquer GK and build a strong side from their cities... Ben's speculation relies on the idea that Charlie would make up a cover story about wiping out Transylvito by claiming that Faq paid him to do it, but Jillian would not go along with such a story. That is a bit of incorrect speculation on Ben's part as he has been convinced that Jillian will betray them.

eschmenk

2016-06-25, 10:05 AM

When Charlie got Parson to agree to turn before the battle in the MK, Charlie gave up a claim for more than 300,000, didn't he? IIRC, Charlie even said that he was willing to spend hundreds of millions if it were necessary to mow down Parson's entire party by firing the tripods out of the portal. That makes it pretty obvious that Charlie would be willing to spend only 300,000 to get Parson.

Of course, Charlie didn't particularly expect TV to accept the offer, so he's got got contingency plans, but still, it's TV's decision. Charlie might want to throw in some terms so that Vanna is allowed to do something to Parson to make sure he doesn't try to escape on the way to CC or just have Parson killed in TV or whatever, but still, I doubt he would invade TV rather than deal with TV.

If TV won't negotiate, or if it looks as if TV would accept GK's offer, I think Charlie might invade TV and he might use Faq as a cover. Yes, Jillian probably wouldn't want to get involved, but Charlie might twist her arms.

---------

Back to why Ansom is in manacles: It occurred to me that Jillian might have noticed Vinnie finding out about Charlie supporting her. Even if not, near the top of the latest update, it says that Vanna probably realized that Don was lying to her. Also Charlie had watched the dinner. Charlie and/or Jillian probably figured out that TV is suspicious of Vanna and Jillian now, so the capture of Ansom could have been for show to reassure TV that Jillian is still a Royalist, rather than a Toolist. Keep in mind that Don told Bunny to open a thinkagram in the last paragraph on the page. The artwork shows what Don will see when she does. I think there is a good chance that Jillian invited Ansom to come to Faq to negotiate when Ansom asked to do so, but captured him when it became necessary to put a show on for Don.

slayerx

2016-06-25, 10:49 AM

If TV won't negotiate, or if it looks as if TV would accept GK's offer, I think Charlie might invade TV and he might use Faq as a cover. Yes, Jillian probably wouldn't want to get involved, but Charlie might twist her arms.

I don't think he would... First he knows how difficult it can be to get Jillian to do anything for him. She can be very rash and act on emotions; she could reject his arm twisting just out of sheer spite.

Second there are other methods charlie can use to get Parson that would be less risky to his reputation... for instance he could just intercept Parson in the field when he's on his way to be exchanged to GK. If his archons can take out the commanders before they can contact bunny, Charlie could wipe them out before TV could know that he was the one that hit them... He could even be more clever by using his new natural allies; Charlie only uses Archons, and thus TV won't know what to make of a sudden attack by Gobwins... heck they may even think it was GK, trying to take back parson without paying for him (true Parson said they no longer have Gobwins, but TV may think that was a lie)... Charlie could even wait for Parson to rejoin GK and then quickly strike down GK's capital instead; why wipe out TV to get to Parson, when he could wipe out GK instead? He Already claimed he be willing to do just that if Parson and GK made it to the top of his sh*t list