Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed

[eschmenk]

Yeah, I thought about those things too, and that's why I was using waffle words. I don't know what Charlie would do.

Faq is apparently still a weak side. I don't know how well Charlie can threaten Jillian, but he might be able to say that it wouldn't be much harder to destroy Faq and TV than it would be to destroy TV alone. OTOH, Charlie could use Jitterati or Carpool as cover instead of Faq if he wanted to.

I don't know how paranoid Charlie would be about the "perfect warlord" being out in the field even if he's with TV troops rather than GK ones. Also GK could rush some knights out with dwagons to join the escort. Charlie has had Parson where he wanted him before, so I'm not sure how much of a chance Charlie would be willing to take now.

Basically it boils down to, "I don't know."

[Xihirli]

http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/172

New Comic.

[Bobb]

Okay..... now my comment about Ossomer is super relevant.

He completely destroys the 'decrytped are not people" drivel.

If he doesn't come up again that is a super big plot hole.

[Yuki Akuma]

Jillian wasn't there when Ossomer turned. In fact, very few of the people who were there to see it are even alive right now.

I think Tramennis is the only one, really.

[Razade]

Okay..... now my comment about Ossomer is super relevant.

He completely destroys the 'decrytped are not people" drivel.

If he doesn't come up again that is a super big plot hole.

It's not a plot hole. The people who saw Ossomer turn back are dead, mostly. And then you forget that people don't care about facts when it comes to deeply held personal belief.

[halfeye]

then you forget that Jillian doesn't care about facts when it comes to deeply held personal beliefs.

FTFY. :smallsmile:

[Bobb]

So Trem isn't going to ask Jillian for Ansom back?

I didn't say it was a plot hole that Jillian doesn't know about Ossomer. I said if it never comes up it would be a plot hole because Trem has interest in getting Ansom back and is part of the royal coalition.

[Razade]

FTFY. :smallsmile:

No you didn't. Jillian is included in people. She isn't the only one clinging to Decrypted=! People and you didn't fix it in a broader sense either.

[eschmenk]

So Trem isn't going to ask Jillian for Ansom back?

Why would he do that? Just to watch him fly back and forth?

[Bobb]

Why would he do that? Just to watch him fly back and forth?

Because they're brothers and he's already gotten Ossomer back. Trem has been more open to the decrypted being people since before Osomer turned.

[Razade]

Because they're brothers and he's already gotten Ossomer back. Trem has been more open to the decrypted being people since before Osomer turned.

No one has Ossomer back. He's dead.

[Bobb]

No one has Ossomer back. He's dead.

In truth I had forgotten that.

But he died a Jetstone unit. He turned the tide against GK. That was no ruse.

[DigoDragon]

This is what happens when you lose bets with your brother. :smalltongue:

Anyway, I'm not sure what Trem was expecting.

[eschmenk]

Yes, but if he chose to not capture Ansom before, why would he do it now? Granted, Jillian was the one to capture him this time, so he would already be a prisoner by the time he reached Jetstone, but why would that make it different for Tramennis? You didn't say anything about the Vanna, so apparently you aren't think of a plot to use her to turn Ansom. I can't think of anything else that would make sense.

[Kornaki]

Obviously Trameniss agreed to become allies with Gobwin Knob in exchange for Ansom going to FAQ so Jillian could attempt to turn him.

[eschmenk]

This is what happens when you lose bets with your brother. :smalltongue:

Anyway, I'm not sure what Trem was expecting.

I think Tramennis probably just said something like, "Your best chance of a truce is probably with Faq, because no other Royalist side will deal with GK, but Jillian isn't really a Royalist and does her own thing so she might agree to a deal with GK. It may not work, but all of your other options are worse." Tramennis would have based that on Jillian's lack of respect for Slately and Royalist customs. Remember what caused Tramennis to say that he hoped he could be half the queen she was?

I doubt that Tramennis knew what to expect, but would have expected failure if Ansom had tried anything else.

[Killer Angel]

I doubt Don will stand like a sitting duck for 2 turns, while waiting for the "Big Surprise"... :smalltongue:

[-D-]

I doubt Don will stand like a sitting duck for 2 turns, while waiting for the "Big Surprise"... :smalltongue:
Then again, the thing is, why would he need to stand like a sitting duck?

Can't he use bracelet to figure out chances of Jillian going after him? Why isn't he asking it that? Apparently bracelet had no problems knowing Jillian takes money from treasury.

EDIT: I do wonder how much did Ansom's attempt at diplomacy costed GK? 5mil? 0? He didn't try to attack her, but he did attacked megalo in self defense.

I would like to see look on Jill's face when she goes into Jetstone/GK and finds out that her "mighty" force is nothing compared to Stanley's in no small way, thanks to Charlie.

[Anteros]

Well, whether the bracelet works or not seems mostly arbitrary at this point (See: if the plot needs it). So I'd guess it won't work for that since the plot requires TV to be suspicious of FAQ right now.

[DigoDragon]

Can't he use bracelet to figure out chances of Jillian going after him? Why isn't he asking it that? Apparently bracelet had no problems knowing Jillian takes money from treasury.

Probably the subject of the next update.
I feel like the Bracelet is going to give some non-answer though.

[Leewei]

Well, whether the bracelet works or not seems mostly arbitrary at this point (See: if the plot needs it). So I'd guess it won't work for that since the plot requires TV to be suspicious of FAQ right now.

My own tinfoil hat theory is that the bracelet can see local factors, including some not visible to the unit using it. In Parson's case, he's got a lot of Fate messing with him, which allows it to cheat on his behalf.

[Anteros]

I think what I find most interesting about this update is the fact that Ansom apparently decided to do this completely on his own. I think this is the first time we've seen him really take any initiative as a person since being de-crypted.

[eschmenk]

I think what I find most interesting about this update is the fact that Ansom apparently decided to do this completely on his own. I think this is the first time we've seen him really take any initiative as a person since being de-crypted.

I don't know. Don't you think he got permission from either Stanley or Antium before heading for Faq? If he did then it's not that different than the mission he just completed. Going to Jetstone was Ansom's idea, too. Granted, Ansom doesn't have Wanda to report to now, but she didn't interfere at all in his mission to Jetstone, either. Granted, neither Antium nor Stanley would be nearly as likely to spot what might go wrong if he flew to Faq as Parson or Wanda would be.

Also, don't forget that the idea to attack Spacerock was his idea. Of course, he had to get permission from Stanley, but GK was following his plan up until Wanda second-guessed him at Exposition Bridge. He's shown the willingness to take the initiative before, it's just that varying numbers of other people have been in a position to say, "No." Now it looks like Jillian is the one who's saying, "No." :smallbiggrin:

[Anteros]

No, I do not believe he got permission from Stanley. For one thing, Stanley would never approve of sending him to Faq alone. For another, he has no means of communicating with Stanley in the field even if he wanted to. I guess he could have hired Charlie for a thinkogram, but it's probably a safe bet that didn't happen.

This is the first time he's done anything without being ordered to do it.

[HalfTangible]

You know, this isn't current events but shouldn't Ossomer put to rest all the nasty speculation that the decrypted are nothing but autonomons.

It seems rather a strange thing he should be completely forgotten.

Ossomer's turning is exactly why Jillian is capturing Ansom instead of dusting him on the spot.

If it's possible for Decrypted to turn on their own, then it's probably possible (if difficult) for a Turnamancer to turn them as well.


I think what I find most interesting about this update is the fact that Ansom apparently decided to do this completely on his own. I think this is the first time we've seen him really take any initiative as a person since being de-crypted.
Um, what?

He said that he was sent here by Tramennis, on a diplomatic mission that he was sent on by someone else against his personal war philosophy of convert-or-die.

[Anteros]

Well, Tram advised him. What I really meant is that he's acting without being ordered.

[eschmenk]

No, I do not believe he got permission from Stanley. For one thing, Stanley would never approve of sending him to Faq alone. For another, he has no means of communicating with Stanley in the field even if he wanted to. I guess he could have hired Charlie for a thinkogram, but it's probably a safe bet that didn't happen.

I don't know. Stanley took his eyebook with him when he got the Juggle Elves. Maybe Ansom brought his? Or maybe a hat or something? Or maybe Bonnie facilitated communications? But we also know that rulers can give orders in the field and scouts can report information back by natural thinkamancy, so maybe Ansom could ask for instructions? I haven't counted turns, but do we even know that Ansom couldn't have returned to Spacerock before heading off to Faq? At the very least, Stanly should have been able to sense Ansom flying into Faq territory and could have ordered him to stop going there. Also, why do you say, "Stanley would never approve of sending him to Faq alone?"

Of course, as HalfTangible just mentioned, Ansom was continuing to attempt to obey Parson's diplomatic strategy, even though that strategy was not Ansom's preference. Given that, I wouldn't consider Ansom's trip c to be a large change for Ansom, even if you were right and Ansom did go to Faq without communicating with anyone but Tramennis first. It still boils down to Ansom trying to do what he thinks someone else would have wanted him to do.

[Yuki Akuma]

Ansom isn't likely to have an Eyebook. They were magic items created by the Jack-Maggie-Misty tri-link and can't be made without all three Eyemancy disciplines in one link.

One assumes Isaac could take the place of the Lookamancer and help produce Eyebooks, but we've never seen anyone beyond the commanders who had Eyebooks before Misty croaked (and Charlie) use the Eyebook network.

Also, Ansom doesn't have the Scout special, so he can't send information back by natural Thinkamancy.

[eschmenk]

OK. That sounds right.

I was going to add to my previous comment that, although I had been assuming that Ansom was just following Parson's policy to try to negotiate truces with the Royalist sides, it's conceivable that Ansom got some new ideas from Tramennis about how GK could put pressure on Charlie and they somehow involve Jillian, so he went off to Faq to propose something that is much more than just the sort of truces that Parson was hoping for. If that's the case, and if Ansom didn't get permission from GK first, then that would be a significant bit of independence on Ansom's part. Of course, it would still be a matter of Ansom following Tramennis's guidance, but it still would have been Ansom's choice to do so. Ansom wouldn't have any duty to obey Tramennis, after all. I would find it surprising if Tramennis could have come up with such an idea, but we do know that Tramennis would like to oppose Charlie and he's pretty clever.

[HalfTangible]

Also, Ansom doesn't have the Scout special, so he can't send information back by natural Thinkamancy.

Has it ever been confirmed that only units with the Scout special can send info back? They can hide, and they won't autoengage, but it's also shown that a Ruler knows what his units are doing (in broad strokes, anyway) at any given time.

[eschmenk]

The other thing is that asking questions isn't the same as reporting information. It could just be that a ruler (or upper level unit) senses that a warlord (or caster or low level unit) needs instructions to do or not do something. At least, that would make sense to me.

BTW, I don't know that this would have to do with Ansom going to Faq, but it would have been interesting if some of Jetstone's casters were in the MK and would be willing to testify for GK's side in exchange for something. The payment would probably have to be pretty large unless Tramennis became very alarmed at what Charlie could do, though. In theory that could have resulted in Tramennis recognizing an opportunity and proposing something unexpected to Ansom, though.

[hajo]

I think what I find most interesting about this update is the fact
that Ansom apparently decided to do this completely on his own.
During the 'Grand strategy (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/36)'-meeting, where Stanley was present,
Ansom suggested to do diplomacy with Jetstone and FAQ.

And after that, some meetings with Jack, Wanda (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/48) etc. to discuss if Ansom might turn.

So, flying to Jetstone and FAQ was not a decision Ansom did all by himself.

Regarding communications: when Ansom started his mission,
they had Maggie to do thinkagrams, now they have Bonnie.
OTOH, GK knows that both thinkagrams and eyebooks are not secure.

[Mobius Twist]

New text-filled update with a couple of drawings. (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/173) Some mechanics, some humanities, some behind-the-scenes drama.

Not a bad update.

[eschmenk]

Did Tramennis suggest to Ansom that he offer himself to Jillian as part of the deal? That's the only thing I can think of that would explain why it had to be Ansom who went to Faq.

[HalfTangible]

Did Tramennis suggest to Ansom that he offer himself to Jillian as part of the deal? That's the only thing I can think of that would explain why it had to be Ansom who went to Faq.

Anson was the only unit from GK that Jillian wouldn't instantly croak, for one.

[DigoDragon]

New text-filled update with a couple of drawings. (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/173) Some mechanics, some humanities, some behind-the-scenes drama.

The word "Worm" being used in very loose definitions. :smalltongue:

I think this would pair better right after the last page with Tramennis. Well, the first half to the name reading. Less jumping around. Just my thought.

[HalfTangible]

Rob has this weird habit of coming up with good storytelling ideas and then flubbing the delivery so that they're not as good as they should be (Exhibit A, the reveal that Slately was a double)

[hajo]

Rob has this weird habit of coming up with good storytelling ideas
and then flubbing the delivery so that they're not as good as they should be
(Exhibit A, the reveal that Slately was a double)
What do you mean by "reveal" ?

We have seen the events unfold in this update (https://wiki.erfworld.com/LIAB_79), as it happened:
Lloyd casting the cloning spell, the archons croaking the original Slately,
and the ditto rambling on.

Nothing left to 'reveal' later...

Also, TV (https://wiki.erfworld.com/LIAB_87) was watching too, via bat-tv, as well as CC.

[HalfTangible]

What do you mean by "reveal" ?

We have seen the events unfold in this update (https://wiki.erfworld.com/LIAB_79), as it happened:
Lloyd casting the cloning spell, the archons croaking the original Slately,
and the ditto rambling on.

Nothing left to 'reveal' later...

Also, TV (https://wiki.erfworld.com/LIAB_87) was watching too, via bat-tv, as well as CC.

The thing is, when Slately found out, it was treated as a reveal.

Showing the doubling didn't mean much, since we didn't know how the discipline worked. Showing his corpse could be considered foreshadowing.

The big flub was TV, because they came out and said directly that Slately was a double. Right before confirming it for Slately and treating it as a big DUN DUN DUUUUUUUN

[eschmenk]

The big flub was TV, because they came out and said directly that Slately was a double. Right before confirming it for Slately and treating it as a big DUN DUN DUUUUUUUN

That wasn't a flub nor was it a confirmation for the double. The double didn't know at all until it was revealed to him, even though many other characters already knew.

I think you may have assumed that the author was trying to do something that he wasn't trying to do and graded it as a failure as a result. There wasn't an attempt to have a big "DUN DUN DUUUUUUUN" for the reader. It was just a setup for the double to have a tragic realization. The fact that the double was one of the last to learn that he was merely a double made the situation more poignant. If the scene didn't work so well for you, well, that's a shame, but it's not really the author's fault.

[HalfTangible]

That wasn't a flub nor was it a confirmation for the double. The double didn't know at all until it was revealed to him, even though many other characters already knew.

I think you may have assumed that the author was trying to do something that he wasn't trying to do and graded it as a failure as a result. There wasn't an attempt to have a big "DUN DUN DUUUUUUUN" for the reader. It was just a setup for the double to have a tragic realization. The fact that the double was one of the last to learn that he was merely a double made the situation more poignant. If the scene didn't work so well for you, well, that's a shame, but it's not really the author's fault.

I don't have a lot of access to the net right now, so I'm just gonna say you missed the point I was making and leave it at that

[-D-]

I disagree with example HalfTangible mentioned, those panels Don talking to Bunny were done, so that readers can figure out how Charlie knows about Slately being a dupe. However the last few comics are good example of wasting good narrative tension. I mean I could see the point if the emotion he tries to stir is melancholy, but that requires that we care about Ansome and remember he was a participant.

What Rob does is essentially show us exploded room and then shows us the clicking clock. If this Page 173 happened before Ansom arrived before page 168, we could imagine different outcomes. For example Jillian yelling at Ansom, or Jillian refusing to talk to him, etc. Instead we are shown outcome and then justification why that happened.

[HalfTangible]

I disagree with example HalfTangible mentioned, those panels Don talking to Bunny were done, so that readers can figure out how Charlie knows about Slately being a dupe.

You don't need Don to actually say 'that wasn't a double, that was the real Slately' though. Remove those two speech bubbles (for the simplest change I can think of) and you have the same result, only now Slately being a dupe is hinted at/foreshadowed.

These more recent pages are a more egregious example in any case.

[eschmenk]

It's easy to criticize, but I'm wondering if there was a much better thing to do. If I try to think of what else Rob should have done, I have trouble coming up with anything. Everything up to Bonnie contacting Ansom could have been included immediately after the previous page about Ansom and Tramennis. Rob probably wouldn't have wanted us distracted from the red herring that he planted, but he could have moved that to the end of the new page. However, Bonnie couldn't contact Ansom until after Parson was captured, so we still wouldn't know that Ansom was heading to Faq until much later. When should Rob have told us about that? It wouldn't have deserved its own page. Just add it to some page that had nothing to do with it? That doesn't sound like a great idea. Moving the entire page back would have made the narrative jump around even more than it did.

I also question that there would have been much narrative tension either way. As it was, it seemed pretty obvious to me that Ansom had showed up in Faq because he had hoped to negotiate with Jillian. I didn't feel much tension over that. Even if I had read the most recent page first, I don't think I would have reacted to him being captured any differently than I did. I can think of only two additional relevant pieces of information that we would have had. The first was that Tramennis had said that "Ansom was the only person who might be able to make an overture Queen Jillian would accept." I don't see how that one changes things. The other thing was that Ansom was thinking that things couldn't go any worse than Jetstone had, which would have made readers wonder how much worse it could be. Yes, that's something, but it's the only thing, and we wouldn't have been caring much about Ansom chances of success so I don't think it would have had much of an impact.

I don't think I know what would have been the best way to handle it. I see advantages and disadvantages to the various alternatives. I'm basically ambivalent about how Rob did it.


You don't need Don to actually say 'that wasn't a double, that was the real Slately' though. Remove those two speech bubbles (for the simplest change I can think of) and you have the same result, only now Slately being a dupe is hinted at/foreshadowed.

That wouldn't have worked as far as Charlie knowing what was going on. "Did that really happen? Yes that really happened" doesn't tell him anything. By that point readers should have been expecting that Slately was just the double anyway so it's not as if much of a secret was given away.

[-D-]

It's easy to criticize, but I'm wondering if there was a much better thing to do.
I'm sure you could have had that court jest with Trammenis earlier, leaving some us to anticipate what Fate befalls our Ansom warlord.



I also question that there would have been much narrative tension either way. As it was, it seemed pretty obvious to me that Ansom had showed up in Faq because he had hoped to negotiate with Jillian. I didn't feel much tension over that. Even if I had read the most recent page first, I don't think I would have reacted to him being captured any differently than I did. I can think of only two additional relevant pieces of information that we would have had. The first was that Tramennis had said that "Ansom was the only person who might be able to make an overture Queen Jillian would accept." I don't see how that one changes things. The other thing was that Ansom was thinking that things couldn't go any worse than Jetstone had, which would have made readers wonder how much worse it could be. Yes, that's something, but it's the only thing, and we wouldn't have been caring much about Ansom chances of success so I don't think it would have had much of an impact.
Yeah, but we could imagine Jillian not capturing Ansom on the spot, we could imagine Jillian growing outside of her - be violent, ask questions later. On the other hand, having resolution as it did, is not really interesting, so it might have made a disappointment, which is essentially two wrongs make a right.

[HalfTangible]

It's easy to criticize, but I'm wondering if there was a much better thing to do. If I try to think of what else Rob should have done, I have trouble coming up with anything. Everything up to Bonnie contacting Ansom could have been included immediately after the previous page about Ansom and Tramennis. Rob probably wouldn't have wanted us distracted from the red herring that he planted, but he could have moved that to the end of the new page. However, Bonnie couldn't contact Ansom until after Parson was captured, so we still wouldn't know that Ansom was heading to Faq until much later. When should Rob have told us about that? It wouldn't have deserved its own page. Just add it to some page that had nothing to do with it? That doesn't sound like a great idea. Moving the entire page back would have made the narrative jump around even more than it did.

I also question that there would have been much narrative tension either way. As it was, it seemed pretty obvious to me that Ansom had showed up in Faq because he had hoped to negotiate with Jillian. I didn't feel much tension over that. Even if I had read the most recent page first, I don't think I would have reacted to him being captured any differently than I did. I can think of only two additional relevant pieces of information that we would have had. The first was that Tramennis had said that "Ansom was the only person who might be able to make an overture Queen Jillian would accept." I don't see how that one changes things. The other thing was that Ansom was thinking that things couldn't go any worse than Jetstone had, which would have made readers wonder how much worse it could be. Yes, that's something, but it's the only thing, and we wouldn't have been caring much about Ansom chances of success so I don't think it would have had much of an impact.

I don't think I know what would have been the best way to handle it. I see advantages and disadvantages to the various alternatives. I'm basically ambivalent about how Rob did it.



That wouldn't have worked as far as Charlie knowing what was going on. "Did that really happen? Yes that really happened" doesn't tell him anything. By that point readers should have been expecting that Slately was just the double anyway so it's not as if much of a secret was given away.

No, Charlie figured it our by snooping on the bat's channel, and I didn't suggest removing that bubble

[eschmenk]

New comic: (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/174)

Albert is thinking the same thing that I've been thinking for a while. :smallconfused:

[DigoDragon]

So the prince is unhappy with his station. Can't blame him considering who mom is. :smalltongue: Can a unit renounce their loyalty? I mean, decrypted-wise we saw Ossimer switch sides when he overcame Wanda's control.

Probably just lead to disbanding for regular "living" units.

[Kantaki]

Well, this could be interesting...
Faq looks amazing in the final panel.
Oh and Albert really doesn't like his mother. I hope he gets out of this (relative) fine.
I wonder if the heir-trading would work. And if it would improve his situation.
More importantly, what did Ansom tell Albert? Sure, he wasn't really happy before, but this seems like a pretty big change.

Meanwhile Jillian is off ruining her relationship to TV. By doing something reckless most likely. Or not. The contract stating GK can't touch her is still around isn't it? Maybe she wants to solo Gobwin Knob (the city).

[eschmenk]

So the prince is unhappy with his station. Can't blame him considering who mom is. :smalltongue: Can a unit renounce their loyalty? I mean, decrypted-wise we saw Ossimer switch sides when he overcame Wanda's control.

Probably just lead to disbanding for regular "living" units.

Parson switched from GK to CC, then back again. Prisoners sometimes do it, particularly when turnamancers work on them, but I think it can theoretically happen at any time. But it would go against the unit's loyalty and normally it would go against a commander's duty (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book_1/94). King Banhammer actually ordered his units to turn to Haffaton and Orwell did it. (https://wiki.erfworld.com/IPTSF_Text_60) The only thing is that the new side apparently needs to accept the unit (https://wiki.erfworld.com/IPTSF_Text_62), which make sense since they new side will be responsible for upkeep.


Oh and Albert really doesn't like his mother. I hope he gets out of this (relative) fine.
Just in case you intended that pun: :smallfurious:


More importantly, what did Ansom tell Albert? Sure, he wasn't really happy before, but this seems like a pretty big change.
It may be that Albert got a dose of Ansom's seriousness of purpose and heard about Ansom's big battles and learned that there might be more important things than posing and chasing girls and chasing money as a mercenary and so on. It may have been Ansom talking about his old loyalty to Jetstone and Slately and Jetstone's ideals, which is very different than anything Albert could feel for Faq and Jillian. Probably a bit of both, but especially the second thing.


Meanwhile Jillian is off ruining her relationship to TV. By doing something reckless most likely. Or not. The contract stating GK can't touch her is still around isn't it? Maybe she wants to solo Gobwin Knob (the city).
Yes, GK can't harm Jillian even in self-defense. The only thing is that Charlie shouldn't have been able to tell Jillian about that without automagically giving CC to GK, unless he told her before the agreement was signed. But he might have told her before it was signed and Charlie finds ways around things, so IDK if she knows or not.

The treaty lasts 30 turns. I think it was signed on Turn 3 of Book 3. The previous page indicated that it's now Day 19, so there should be in effect for another 14 turns.

[hajo]

Meanwhile Jillian is off ruining her relationship to TV.
The contract stating GK can't touch her is still around isn't it?
Maybe she wants to solo Gobwin Knob (the city).
Jillian was planning to conquer GK (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/150) with her giants,
and Ansom might have spotted some of them on his way in.

But TV is going to see her 'big surprise (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/172)' meaning an attack on TV's capital,
with Vanna in place, and perhaps some rifles from CC as well :smallamused:
With TV only 2 days flight from FAQ, and the heir 10 days away,
Don can no longer wait. Interesting negotiations with Parson coming up...

So, we will probably leave this cliff for now, and go for a scene-change,
e.g. to CC/MK/Jed, or something completely different :smallbiggrin:

[DigoDragon]

Meanwhile Jillian is off ruining her relationship to TV. By doing something reckless most likely. Or not.

Pretty much Jill's defining traits though. ;)


Parson switched from GK to CC, then back again. Prisoners sometimes do it, particularly when turnamancers work on them, but I think it can theoretically happen at any time. But it would go against the unit's loyalty and normally it would go against a commander's duty (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book_1/94). King Banhammer actually ordered his units to turn to Haffaton and Orwell did it. (https://wiki.erfworld.com/IPTSF_Text_60) The only thing is that the new side apparently needs to accept the unit (https://wiki.erfworld.com/IPTSF_Text_62), which make sense since they new side will be responsible for upkeep.

Parson is a weird case in most things, but I suppose that should count. Reckon it just has a lot playing on how much loyalty the unit feels to their current side versus switching to a side that's more in-line to their beliefs?


Just in case you intended that pun: :smallfurious:

I was expecting a pun about Albert deciding to get himself out of the can he's in. :smalltongue:



Yes, GK can't harm Jillian even in self-defense. The only thing is that Charlie shouldn't have been able to tell Jillian about that without automagically giving CC to GK, unless he told her before the agreement was signed. But he might have told her before it was signed and Charlie finds ways around things, so IDK if she knows or not.

Guess we'll find out. It would be kind of odd if GK has to just sit there holding the door closed while Jillian is pounding on it to occupy. But I guess that's what you get when you deal with Charlie.

[Kantaki]

Parson switched from GK to CC, then back again. Prisoners sometimes do it, particularly when turnamancers work on them, but I think it can theoretically happen at any time. But it would go against the unit's loyalty and normally it would go against a commander's duty (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book_1/94). King Banhammer actually ordered his units to turn to Haffaton and Orwell did it. (https://wiki.erfworld.com/IPTSF_Text_60) The only thing is that the new side apparently needs to accept the unit (https://wiki.erfworld.com/IPTSF_Text_62), which make sense since they new side will be responsible for upkeep.


Just in case you intended that pun: :smallfurious:


It may be that Albert got a dose of Ansom's seriousness of purpose and heard about Ansom's big battles and learned that there might be more important things than posing and chasing girls and chasing money as a mercenary and so on. It may have been Ansom talking about his old loyalty to Jetstone and Slately and Jetstone's ideals, which is very different than anything Albert could feel for Faq and Jillian. Probably a bit of both, but especially the second thing.


Yes, GK can't harm Jillian even in self-defense. The only thing is that Charlie shouldn't have been able to tell Jillian about that without automagically giving CC to GK, unless he told her before the agreement was signed. But he might have told her before it was signed and Charlie finds ways around things, so IDK if she knows or not.

The treaty lasts 30 turns. I think it was signed on Turn 3 of Book 3. The previous page indicated that it's now Day 19, so there should be in effect for another 14 turns.

Pun?:smallconfused: Oh you mean "relative". Right, that's the same word in english...:smallsigh: No, no that wasn't intended. And now I can't unsee it.

[eschmenk]

Jillian was planning to conquer GK (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/150) with her giants,
and Ansom might have spotted some of them on his way in.

And that would explain why Ansom was sure that Jillian would hunt him down and attack him even if he tried to leave in addition to why Ansom could tell Albert where Jillian would attack. It would also explain why Jillian was unusually angry, even compared to what's normal for her. Jillian's secrecy would be because Jillian wouldn't want Don to know about the giants since Jillian couldn't have paid for them without Charlie's money. Jillian probably thinks that once she wins, Don will be so impressed it would override any concerns he would have.

This also means that Jillian probably doesn't need to know that GK can't harm her to go ahead and try to capture GK (the city). I wonder if the people defending it would know or if Stanley or anyone else would remember.

[Anteros]

I actually completely forgot about the implications that Vinnie was there and Transylvito could just get perspective of the situation through a bat. How silly of me.

[eschmenk]

Reckon it just has a lot playing on how much loyalty the unit feels to their current side versus switching to a side that's more in-line to their beliefs?

Yes, I think it's beliefs and desires against loyalty and duty and that's what turnamancers work with. In Albert's case, he's suggesting a trade that would benefit both sides, so his duty wouldn't be a problem. I think equitable trades involving units are fairly common, actually. Digdoug was traded to his side, for example. (Digdoug was traded for a heir, actually, so I think Vinny needs to double-check his understanding of the Book of Canon. :smallbiggrin: ) Parson's duty wasn't a problem when he turned to CC because he was basically trading himself for a city and and bunch of GK units that Charlie would have gotten otherwise. When he turned back to GK, Parson's beliefs and desires must have overwhelmed whatever little loyalty and duty he had for CC, but he also earned 5 million smuckers for CC which might have helped convince him to go ahead and do it.

[DigoDragon]

This also means that Jillian probably doesn't need to know that GK can't harm her to go ahead and try to capture GK (the city). I wonder if the people defending it would know or if Stanley or anyone else would remember.

I hope someone remembers. Or it's gonna get expensive real quick. :smalleek:

[Chives]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but is there a mention of Jill popping anywhere? I think she's human.

[HalfTangible]

...

Had a thought.

What turn does the truce end, and what were the conditions on Faq continuing aggression?

[danelsan]

Regarding Jillian, with a precise enough strike (say, involving a certain pole with bonus to dismount armored units, leading to a huge fall for the queen) GK would only need to pay the penalty once.

[eschmenk]

...

Had a thought.

What turn does the truce end, and what were the conditions on Faq continuing aggression?


Yes, GK can't harm Jillian even in self-defense. The only thing is that Charlie shouldn't have been able to tell Jillian about that without automagically giving CC to GK, unless he told her before the agreement was signed. But he might have told her before it was signed and Charlie finds ways around things, so IDK if she knows or not.

The treaty lasts 30 turns. I think it was signed on Turn 3 of Book 3. The previous page indicated that it's now Day 19, so there should be in effect for another 14 turns.

Faq didn't sign or negotiate it. Charlie promised to ensure that Jilliian released the GK units she took as prisoners, but Jillian didn't promise anything. As I said, we don't even know if Jillian knows what the terms are.

https://wiki.erfworld.com/Declaration_of_Non-Aggression_Between_Charlescomm_and_Gobwin_Knob

[Randomguy]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but is there a mention of Jill popping anywhere? I think she's human.

Jillian described the situation that lead to King Banhammer deciding to pop an heir (which was her), to Ansom in book 1.

[Ubiq]

Where's the main body of the Juggle Elves right now? I know Stanley was going to let them keep pillaging Rightshoring but did he leave them there after finding out about the Archons and Hamster?

[eschmenk]

Where's the main body of the Juggle Elves right now? I know Stanley was going to let them keep pillaging Rightshoring but did he leave them there after finding out about the Archons and Hamster?

We don't know. The artwork at the bottom of page 147 made it look as if all of them might be returning with Stanley. Also Page 152 mentioned "Junkyard Elves" which seemed to be returning with him. Even earlier, on Page 142, which was just before he found out about the Archons and told the Elves to breed, it seemed as if Stanley was starting to return, but he had more than the 15 knights with him. (There were a lot more than 15 on the next page.) Also, there were more than fifteen Elves partying in Jed's eye on Page 169, but that could just mean that Stanley bred more using the knights.

[-D-]

Digdoug was traded for a heir, actually, so I think Vinny needs to double-check his understanding of the Book of Canon. :smallbiggrin:
Keep in mind Posbrake wasn't fan of Canon. IIRC Prince Creen and his father weren't happy with that.

[Killer Angel]

I like how Vinny is totally unaware of Don's worries... :smallbiggrin:

[eschmenk]

Keep in mind Posbrake wasn't fan of Canon. IIRC Prince Creen and his father weren't happy with that.

Posbrake wasn't a fan of conventional wisdom, but why do you say that he wasn't a fan of Canon? How is anything Prince Creen and his father thought relevant to the question of whether or not the Book of Canon indicates that Albert's idea could work?

[-D-]

Posbrake wasn't a fan of conventional wisdom, but why do you say that he wasn't a fan of Canon? How is anything Prince Creen and his father thought relevant to the question of whether or not the Book of Canon indicates that Albert's idea could work?
Posbrake seems like a person against traditions and Canon is essentially a book about Royal traditions. Keep in mind he traded a Royal Heir for a Dirtamancer. The other side wanted a Royal to be the heir and didn't produce its own.

If you mean that Albert can be Transylvito's heir? I doubt that will work. It can work, but (I presume) only if Don forks over money to make him heir apparent. Nothing so far suggests it's any more transferable than Chief Warlord.

[eschmenk]

The Book of Canon seems to be a book of supposedly official history. Naturally royalistic traditionalists would latch onto something like that, but that doesn't mean that the book is specifically geared toward royal traditions. But, yes, it could be that Follywood just wanted a royal commander in exchange for Digdoug and the fact that Prince Pluss was a heir didn't matter to them.

[Legato Endless]

The Book of Canon seems to be a book of supposedly official history. Naturally royalistic traditionalists would latch onto something like that, but that doesn't mean that the book is specifically geared toward royal traditions. But, yes, it could be that Follywood just wanted a royal commander in exchange for Digdoug and the fact that Prince Pluss was a heir didn't matter to them.

The Book of Fats is official history. The other works in the Book of Canon are not only historical, including claims about an afterlife, Titanic Judgement of the dead, ethereal attributes of Units like spirit and the like. Considering the nature of allusions in Erfworld, and what the terms Canon and Scripture typically implies, it would be strange for Vinny to be mistaken with the implication here.

[eschmenk]

The Book of Fats is official history. The other works in the Book of Canon are not only historical, including claims about an afterlife, Titanic Judgement of the dead, ethereal attributes of Units like spirit and the like. Considering the nature of allusions in Erfworld, and what the terms Canon and Scripture typically implies, it would be strange for Vinny to be mistaken with the implication here.

It seems to me that, "I'd have to reread the Book of Canon," means that Vinny isn't sure that he remembers what Scripture says about that subject. That's consistent with what we know about him. He's not overtly religious.

[XanKrieger]

I don't think Vinny is unaware of the rules so much as he is trying to avoid the question altogether. Regardless of whether or not he would want to bring the prince to his side, it's a dangerous subject.

[eschmenk]

I don't think Vinny is unaware of the rules so much as he is trying to avoid the question altogether. Regardless of whether or not he would want to bring the prince to his side, it's a dangerous subject.

I doubt that question comes up much, but yeah, that wouldn't be something that Albert should be hoping for. Even if it were possible, Albert would be much better trying to make things work out where he is at. Vinny would have been in an especially difficult spot because Albert's idea would involve hoping that Don pops a poor heir for TV, among other things.

[Legato Endless]

One of the issues is, likely like the real world, the base text of Scripture is now inseparably tied to the traditions and interpretations that each generation has tacked onto it. I do not see Don as going along with the trade even if it were technically allowed considering the cultural milieu.

[Douglas]

Interesting, looks like Parson's situation may be about to change quite dramatically, thanks in large part to that bracer.

[DigoDragon]

Oh. Well I didn't expect Don to accept the bracer's answer like that, but... sure, I like where this is going. Le'ts see Don chat with Parson.

With the turnamancer there capable of ending TV's turn, it's going to be a slaughter if don doesn't think of something quick.

[Kantaki]

Oh. Well I didn't expect Don to accept the bracer's answer like that, but... sure, I like where this is going. Le'ts see Don chat with Parson.

With the turnamancer there capable of ending TV's turn, it's going to be a slaughter if don doesn't think of something quick.

Is being off-turn that much of a problem for the defending side?
The biggest drawback for GK was being unable to change city zones, but that was because Jetstone was a enemy city.
I would be more worried about units turning at the worst possible time. Or Don getting stabbed as soon as he turns his back to Vanna. Or something like that.

[Porthos]

Of course, 61.6% is not 100%. And with someone as unpredictable as Jillian, I might place a NARRATIVE bet on that 38.4% side.

Much more likely that Chuckles is using her, though how exactly, I'm not as sure.

Either way, the Perfect Warlord might have another battle to win soon.

[Anteros]

Am I the only one who doesn't actually believe Jillian is going to attack TV? It doesn't fit her character at all, and I don't think Charlie has enough power over her to coerce her into attacking an allied side.

[eschmenk]

Of course, 61.6% is not 100%. And with someone as unpredictable as Jillian, I might place a NARRATIVE bet on that 38.4% side.

Much more likely that Chuckles is using her, though how exactly, I'm not as sure.

Either way, the Perfect Warlord might have another battle to win soon.


Jillian was planning to conquer GK (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/150) with her giants...

I'm pretty sure that's still Jillian's plan. It's not a matter of expecting her to being unpredictable; it's hoping for the opposite. Based on what Albert told Vinnie, it didn't sound as if she had changed her mind yet, but something might still happen. I don't know if Charlie cares about Jillian trying to do it or not. It's conceivable that he doesn't even know about it.

[tonberrian]

Yeah, Jillian isn't going to attack TV, but the bracer was asked to based on what they know now. That syntax is important.

[eschmenk]

Yeah, Jillian isn't going to attack TV, but the bracer was asked to based on what they know now. That syntax is important.

If Benjamin actually asked the question that way, he was being foolish. Caesar didn't seem to think Benjamin did it that way. Caesar concluded that one could learn about enemy intelligence from the bracer, but that wouldn't have happened if the bracer had merely relied on what TV already knew. It seems clear that Caesar, at least, thought the 61.6% number was based on more than what TV already knew. Of course, that could just mean that Caesar had too much faith in Benjamin. But another possibility is that the bracer knows that things could happen in the future that could make Jillian change her plans.

[Jasdoif]

Am I the only one who doesn't actually believe Jillian is going to attack TV?No, you're not. Even if the prediction of "Plotting with Charlie to attack Transylvito" is true, that doesn't automatically mean she's going to act on it; it could be a contingency if Transylvito strikes first, or something Charlie required as a condition of his cooperation.

[eschmenk]

No, you're not. Even if the prediction of "Plotting with Charlie to attack Transylvito" is true, that doesn't automatically mean she's going to act on it; it could be a contingency if Transylvito strikes first, or something Charlie required as a condition of his cooperation.

Aren't the facts that she was planning to attack GK (city) and Ansom apparently saw that she had already deployed units who were heading toward GK (city) even better indications of what she's up to?

[Jasdoif]

Aren't the facts that she was planning to attack GK (city) and Ansom apparently saw that she had already deployed units who were heading toward GK (city) even better indications of what she's up to?You don't think it'd be possible for Jillian to plot with Charlie to attack Transylvito while also planning to attack the city of Gobwin Knob? It might be logistically challenging (to say the least) to do both attacks concurrently, but the planning?

[eschmenk]

You don't think it'd be possible for Jillian to plot with Charlie to attack Transylvito while also planning to attack the city of Gobwin Knob? It might be logistically challenging (to say the least) to do both attacks concurrently, but the planning?

I guess there is a different issue I should have addressed. "Planning to" do something, usually means that you intend to do it; it's not normally about developing contingency plans. So, on that basis, no, I don't think she plans to attack both GK and TV.

Beyond that, I wouldn't think that she would make contingency plans with Charlie, anyway. He's been very secretive and hasn't been letting her know what's going on so far. I doubt that would have changed. I don't doubt that he already has many contingency plans, but I think there is almost no chance that he would think, "Gee, I should develop additional plans and I should get Jillian's input this time." I can't imagine Jillian wanting to contact Charlie so as to develop any sort of strategies either. It would be very typical of both of them to not want the other to know what they are up to.

[HalfTangible]

Is being off-turn that much of a problem for the defending side?
The biggest drawback for GK was being unable to change city zones, but that was because Jetstone was a enemy city.
I would be more worried about units turning at the worst possible time. Or Don getting stabbed as soon as he turns his back to Vanna. Or something like that.

Well, it CAN be a problem. It cuts the defending side off from reinforcements, for one (that's part of why the turn-ending spell was such a huge turnaround in the battle for Spacerock and why Ansom bothered veiling the Dwagons as infantry - Jetstone couldn't recall their field units off-turn). For another, the King would be unable to move out of the city. Depending on when the spell is cast, it could effectively give the attacker two back-to-back turns (which a side with high-movement flyers like Faq, Charlescomm or even GK could definitely take advantage of).

I agree w/you though, the situation would be bad enough even if they were on-turn.

[DigoDragon]

Either way, the Perfect Warlord might have another battle to win soon.

Oh I really hope so. Saving TV's flabby butt would make a perfect finish for this book. :D

[eschmenk]

With the turnamancer there capable of ending TV's turn, it's going to be a slaughter if don doesn't think of something quick.

I basically agree with the other guys that there would be a lot of other things to worry about, but I wouldn't worry about that specific spell being cast anyway. Just for meta reasons, it would seem cheap to see that spell be used again. It just feels as if that spell should only be used once. In story, Vanna said that the spell consumed the equivalent of about two turns worth of her juice (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+2/65). Since she still had a little juice left afterwards, she might have banked some juice somehow (with Charlie's help?) ahead of time. It might be difficult to do that now, since she is supposed to be using all her juice to make the heir pop sooner. Presumably Don might notice if she didn't.

The other thing is that Charlie probably has so many ways to cheat that it wouldn't make sense to worry about any of them. If you worry about Charlie cheating one way, you would just be distracting yourself from the other 999 ways he might cheat. :smalleek: Well, actually, if that helps you avoid being paralyzed by fear, maybe that would be a good thing. :smallbiggrin:

[tonberrian]

I mean it's obvious that the bracer is based on what the person asking the question knows. If Stanley was asking it the odds of GK's treasury being greater than x is either 100% or 0%, because he has treasury sense and thus knows the treasury. Ben only gets various odds. So yeah, when Ben asks the bracer about Jillian attacking it's based on what they know.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Of course, 61.6% is not 100%. And with someone as unpredictable as Jillian, I might place a NARRATIVE bet on that 38.4% side.

Much more likely that Chuckles is using her, though how exactly, I'm not as sure.

Either way, the Perfect Warlord might have another battle to win soon.

I don't know..what would be more perfect for the perfect Warlord, saving TV from Jillian.

Or defeating TV and FAQ with only words, imagine if Jillian is off doing something random..and Parson manages to talk TV into making some huge mistakes, from a jail cell and causing FAQ and Charlie some trouble.

[eschmenk]

I mean it's obvious that the bracer is based on what the person asking the question knows. If Stanley was asking it the odds of GK's treasury being greater than x is either 100% or 0%, because he has treasury sense and thus knows the treasury. Ben only gets various odds. So yeah, when Ben asks the bracer about Jillian attacking it's based on what they know.

I don't think so. For example, how could Parson have known what questions Charlie might ask in the future? (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%202/18) And again, how would Caesar call information "enemy intelligence" if TV already knew about it? OTOH, I realize that you are agreeing with what Benjamin told Don and Benjamin could probably understand the bracer better than Caesar could.

There is probably some way to hide information from the bracer or some types of information that the bracer can't figure out, but I'm not sure what it is. Maybe there is a way to obfusticate information using Carnymancy. Maybe Charlie did that with his money or something? :smallconfused:

[DigoDragon]

I basically agree with the other guys that there would be a lot of other things to worry about, but I wouldn't worry about that specific spell being cast anyway. Just for meta reasons, it would seem cheap to see that spell be used again. It just feels as if that spell should only be used once. In story, Vanna said that the spell consumed the equivalent of about two turns worth of her juice (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+2/65). Since she still had a little juice left afterwards, she might have banked some juice somehow (with Charlie's help?) ahead of time. It might be difficult to do that now, since she is supposed to be using all her juice to make the heir pop sooner. Presumably Don might notice if she didn't.

That makes fine sense meta-wise, but Parson wouldn't have that kind of knowledge. He would want Vanna captured in any case, knowing she could prematurely end TV's turn, as well as turn TV units over to Jillian's side. If I think too much about meta with the direction the story goes, I might not have as much fun with it. In any case, Vanna needs to be captured. She be dangerous. :3


The other thing is that Charlie probably has so many ways to cheat that it wouldn't make sense to worry about any of them. If you worry about Charlie cheating one way, you would just be distracting yourself from the other 999 ways he might cheat. Well, actually, if that helps you avoid being paralyzed by fear, maybe that would be a good thing.

Except if you're Parson, who lives for this kind of challenge. :smallamused:

[Aquillion]

I don't think so. For example, how could Parson have known what questions Charlie might ask in the future? (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%202/18) And again, how would Caesar call information "enemy intelligence" if TV already knew about it? OTOH, I realize that you are agreeing with what Benjamin told Don and Benjamin could probably understand the bracer better than Caesar could.

There is probably some way to hide information from the bracer or some types of information that the bracer can't figure out, but I'm not sure what it is. Maybe there is a way to obfusticate information using Carnymancy. Maybe Charlie did that with his money or something? :smallconfused:The bracer also gave Benjamin a 100% chance of being carniemancied, which he had absolutely no way to be so certain about.

My guess is that Fate has the power to manipulate the bracer's results (we may have seen it do so to Parson when it was trying to discourage him from using the scroll), and that it's manipulating these in order to get Parson back into a position where he can kill Charlie.

[Zalabim]

Maybe the chances are ~60%, but not for the reasons that they know. If TV allies with GK, then Jillian will be attacking them quite soon. If TV agrees to return GK's prisoners, then Jillian may be called on to intercept that. So there'd be a collectively 60% chance for it to end up that Jillian attacks them soon, based on what we expect they're likely to be doing in the near term. That still means there's almost a 40% chance that she won't. Maybe that's the chance she takes up Ansom's offer too?

[-D-]

Maybe the chances are ~60%, but not for the reasons that they know. If TV allies with GK, then Jillian will be attacking them quite soon. If TV agrees to return GK's prisoners, then Jillian may be called on to intercept that. So there'd be a collectively 60% chance for it to end up that Jillian attacks them soon, based on what we expect they're likely to be doing in the near term. That still means there's almost a 40% chance that she won't. Maybe that's the chance she takes up Ansom's offer too?
I doubt they ally, not with Don King around. Truce, maybe.

What people seem to miss is that Charlie wants to get Hamster and that Jill owns him one. This could be her way of repaying him.

Personally I think Parson will need to evacuate, because with him gone, Charlie will lose interest.

[Ubiq]

What people seem to miss is that Charlie wants to get Hamster and that Jill owns him one. This could be her way of repaying him.

Exactly; Parson being dead or his prisoner is the Number One Priority of Charlescomm right now so Charlie could have made Jillian an offer she couldn't turn down in exchange for croaking or capturing Hamster.

Jillian freezing out Vinnie the way she has also doesn't make sense with any other target besides Transylvito itself.

[Anteros]

Exactly; Parson being dead or his prisoner is the Number One Priority of Charlescomm right now so Charlie could have made Jillian an offer she couldn't turn down in exchange for croaking or capturing Hamster.

Jillian freezing out Vinnie the way she has also doesn't make sense with any other target besides Transylvito itself.

It makes sense for two reasons. One, because Jillian is an idiot who always does the wrong thing. The second reason is that characters choosing to not share vital information for no reason is a tension building technique as old as bad writing itself.

[Zalabim]

It makes sense for two reasons. One, because Jillian is an idiot who always does the wrong thing. The second reason is that characters choosing to not share vital information for no reason is a tension building technique as old as bad writing itself.

Well, hold up. We know that Jillian has tried to withhold information from Vinnie about her working with CC. Turning the giants. Paying for Vanna. Now this attack. So this attack must be something planned with Charlie. Charlie wouldn't tell her about his source to know that Parson is in TV (eavesdropping), so what could he tell her about? What has he planned? It's probably something with no way for the readers to know about it. We think she's going to attack the city of GK. What does Charlie have to do with that? Does he have information about the MK trial about to end? Maybe it's because she knows about her contractual immunity?

[eschmenk]

What people seem to miss is that Charlie wants to get Hamster and that Jill owns him one. This could be her way of repaying him.

Why would Jillian think that she owes Charlie anything? Jillian hasn't asked for anything from Charlie that she would still owe him for AFAIK. Charlie just paid Jillian to get her to play along with sending Vanna to Don, rather than calling anything due.


Personally I think Parson will need to evacuate, because with him gone, Charlie will lose interest.

The question would be: how can that happen?


It makes sense for two reasons. One, because Jillian is an idiot who always does the wrong thing. The second reason is that characters choosing to not share vital information for no reason is a tension building technique as old as bad writing itself.

No. It's been well established that she's been trying to get back in Don's good graces and that requires (as far as she knows) that she stays loyal to the Royal side and avoids the Toolists. Don lumped Charlie in with the toolists, so he would consider Jillian getting any help from Charlie to be a betrayal. Therefore, she was trying to keep Vinny in the dark. She doesn't realize that TV already figured it out anyway.


Well, hold up. We know that Jillian has tried to withhold information from Vinnie about her working with CC. Turning the giants. Paying for Vanna. Now this attack. So this attack must be something planned with Charlie. Charlie wouldn't tell her about his source to know that Parson is in TV (eavesdropping), so what could he tell her about? What has he planned? It's probably something with no way for the readers to know about it. We think she's going to attack the city of GK. What does Charlie have to do with that? Does he have information about the MK trial about to end? Maybe it's because she knows about her contractual immunity?

There is no reason to jump to that conclusion. Jillian had a good reason to keep her dealings with Charlie secret that had nothing to do with this attack. Your conclusion could still be correct, though; If Charlie thought Jillian needed his help, Charlie might have helped. Or maybe Charlie could predict that Jillian would attack and that she would do OK without his help. Or maybe he isn't worrying about Jillian much at the moment. It's impossible to know. The thing is that Charlie likes to be secretive and likes to keep his options open, so I doubt that he would help Jillian any sooner than necessary, but we don't know when that would be.

[Binks]

The bracer also gave Benjamin a 100% chance of being carniemancied, which he had absolutely no way to be so certain about.

My guess is that Fate has the power to manipulate the bracer's results (we may have seen it do so to Parson when it was trying to discourage him from using the scroll), and that it's manipulating these in order to get Parson back into a position where he can kill Charlie.
As best I can tell (if anyone has counterexamples I'd love to see them) the bracer always gives 100%/0% results for questions about past (or immediately current, as in the crown) events, which makes sense as they either happened or didn't happen, regardless of the information the user has. For future predictions it almost never gives 100%/0% answers (the fate interference on the scroll being an obvious exception).

EDIT: Alright, interesting in this, and have some free time, so let's see if we can compare everytime the bracer is used. Spoiled for length.
Book 1 page 66 - First use I can see, asked for odds of Jillian wiping out the damaged dragons (future result). Result given is 61%
Book 1 Episode 103 - Charlie asked for 2 predictions, both future ('can 14 archons take the garrison', answer is 'no', whether that's an extremely low chance or an actual 0 is unknown and 'how many archons to take the garrison', again, answer given is unclear.
Book 1 Episode 105 - Future prediction (odds of holding the city), result given is 58.9%
Book 1 Epilogue 6 - Prediction about a future event (throwing a brick sans archery special), gives 1/5400 odds.

Book 2 Prologue 18 - Prediction about future event (odds that giving up future calculations would be worth learning information now), result given is 4.14%
*Book 2 Prologue 24 - Several predictions about past events. Odds archons or sizemore should have spotted a Gobwin while scouting, 98%. Odds something fishy was going on with the Gobwins, 78%. Odds Charlie was behind fishy events with Gobwins, 92%.
Book 2 109 - Battle for spacerock, Parson's trapped in the fire, bracer glitches between high chance and 0%. Likely fate interference, or possibly representing
Book 2 Epilogue 25/25B - Charlie asks for a prediction about a possible alternate past, how things might have gone down if something had been changed. Result given is 98.4%

Book 3 Page 9 - Parson asks odds of a non-commander unit escaping capture solo, result is not quite 0%, but basically there.
Book 3 Page 162 - Ben uses the bracer to calculate the odds of two future events (Don refusing and disbanding him), results are 94% and 19%. Also calculates the results of two past events, results are 100% and 0%. Also calculates a present event, result is 100%.
*Book 3 Page 171 - Discussion of tests run on the bracer by Ben. Treasury is given correctly for their side but unknown for GK. Probability GK's treasury is greater than 10x Trans is 97%, 20x is 68%, 30x is 52%. Odds the king is wearing his crown is 0%.
Book 3 Page 175 - Calculation of a future event. Assuming Ben isn't lying, result is 61.6%

That's all the uses of the Bracer I could find, and it fits my standing theory. Events that have already happened are 100%/0% results, because they either happened or didn't happen. Any predictions (future or past with changes) are never 100%/0%, though they can be awfully close.

EDIT: Found the crown example (book 3 page 171) which only barely fits (gives probability based odds that GK's treasury is a certain value, so obviously there must be some hidden information from it, even from past events). Also had a counter-example pointed out in Book 2 Prologue 24, which also has a past event given %'s. So that theory is torpedoed nicely. :smalltongue:

[guttering flame]

The bracer is just repeating what Ceasar said maybe with a little input from King Don and the others' belief. The TV head honchos aren't as game-savvy as Parson so the bracer's answers are likewise less accurate. Jillian is flying to GK city.

Edit to add - Binks, there was at least one counter-example. Parson asked the bracer what happened to the Goblins after book 1 and it answered in probabilities.

[HalfTangible]

My guess is that the bracer's calculations are based on what the units in the side experience - not just the wearer or those nearby but the ENTIRE side, and all info that those units can gain.

The bracer evidently can (and does) work on things that the units on a particular side know as well as things they don't. The key is the difference between calculations where the answer is definite, and where it is not. When there is something that the units in a side cannot possibly predict or know (GK's treasury, Jillian's attack target) or where a definite answer would change the outcome ("Can I convince my king do to a thing") we get a percentage chance.

AFAICT, the outliers to most of the ideas given here are the Carnymancy and the Turnamancy questions. There's very little reason to think that TV knows anything that suggests either of these answers, let alone to a 100% yes or no certainty. However, if you presume that the questions are answered based on what the units of the side experience, then the Bracer would know what spells affected Benjamin that turn.

EDIT: Oh, and Vanna's currently acting as a barbarian caster in service to TV, which is why it knows what she knows (whether or not she's an agent of Charlie, something that TV could only have suspected rather than known). It could also be working off of Parson's knowledge as their prisoner (which isn't complete since the battle in the MK)

@Binks: You forget Parson asking the Bracer the odds that someone was interfering with the Gobwins and that that someone was Charlie. That was past info, and it gave a percentage chance.

[Anteros]

I've said it before, but I suspect you're all overthinking it and the bracer works based on whatever the plot currently needs it to say.

[HalfTangible]

I've said it before, but I suspect you're all overthinking it and the bracer works based on whatever the plot currently needs it to say.

Well if you want to be boring don't let us stop you :smalltongue:

[Anteros]

Well if you want to be boring don't let us stop you :smalltongue:

I just find this topic boring and want to go back to talking about interesting things. Like unit upkeep or obscure contract details.

[eschmenk]

I think it's a safe bet that the bracer knows all about unit upkeep and the terms of any contracts that the side is involved in, but it would have to calculate the odds if the person wielding it asked if a different side was in a secret contract with thus and such terms. But what would happen if someone asked the brace about the odds of Jillian's attack on GK city succeeding? Would it take the fact that GK units couldn't harm her without costing GK 5 million into account? Would it depend on who was asking?

[-D-]

Why would Jillian think that she owes Charlie anything?
Battle of Binding Arbitration? Jillian claimed she hated it, because she now owed Charlie one.

I doubt sending a caster he pays is the same level as saving ones life.





The question would be: how can that happen?

Loads of ways. It's obvious that TV can't just move Hamster with Charles around. MK seems the only logical way.

His initial Turnamancy ploy didn't work. So now he might want to do some more theater. Perhaps stage an attack on TV to allow Vanna inside to deal with Parson. Maybe even smoke Parson into MK and kill him there. Or just have Jillian demand Parson for vengeance.

[-D-]

I've said it before, but I suspect you're all overthinking it and the bracer works based on whatever the plot currently needs it to say.

It most definitely works like that.

Don't forget that it managed to answer a question what is future worth of me trading my prediction for what happened to Decrypted or some such.

It definitely CAN predict future, based on things people have no chance of knowing.

[eschmenk]

Battle of Binding Arbitration? Jillian claimed she hated it, because she now owed Charlie one.

I doubt sending a caster he pays is the same level as saving ones life.

You are going to have to be more specific. Jillian was reluctant to allow Charlie to help her for free (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/10). Given that, it seems unlikely that she would have agreed to owe Charlie. As I said, I don't remember it happening, so you are going to have to provide the page.


Loads of ways.

Of course! That's why I said what I said.


It most definitely works like that.

Don't forget that it managed to answer a question what is future worth of me trading my prediction for what happened to Decrypted or some such.

It definitely CAN predict future, based on things people have no chance of knowing.

I just provided a link to that a few comments ago, so hopefully he remembered. But how in the world would the ability of a magical device to do something that is impossible for people "most definitely" mean that no rules apply to the magical device's capabilities other than they must match whatever the plot currently requires?

[-D-]

You are going to have to be more specific.
I meant, she owned Charlie, for saving her keister twice in Battle of Binding Arbitration.


That, of course, was the worst part of all of this; it was Charlie who saved her from Ansom, from Stanley. She was now even with Ansom, who'd truly been lost at the battle for Gobwin Knob. ... But now she owed Charlie. She would have to save him, to be even.

Source (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/39)


But how in the world would the ability of a magical device to do something that is impossible for people "most definitely" mean that no rules apply to the magical device's capabilities other than they must match whatever the plot currently requires?
Because they use the advance ability to guess future not much after that (they check for traps in Book 2 and then not much else). Like, you have a ****ing Predictamancer as a Service on your watch, you are a power gamer and don't use it often? Why?

[eschmenk]

I meant, she owned Charlie, for saving her keister twice in Battle of Binding Arbitration.

Source (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/39)

"She would have to save him, to be even."

OK, but that's just in her head as far as we know. It came across as just an extension of her game with Ansom. She's so competitive, she doesn't like being saved more than she saves someone else. It would make her feel inferior. However, we also know that she doesn't like Charlie and that she would loose a huge competitor if Charlie croaked and that she was willing to defy Charlie at Spacerock. No doubt Charlie manipulate her to some extent with that, but I don't think it's a big deal.


Because they use the advance ability to guess future not much after that (they check for traps in Book 2 and then not much else). Like, you have a ****ing Predictamancer as a Service on your watch, you are a power gamer and don't use it often? Why?

Because you have to know what questions to ask it and because the answers it would give aren't as helpful as you might think? What we saw Parson mostly doing was learning about Erfworld, which was very important. Parson could have been using the bracer quite a bit off camera, too.

Let's look at that one prediction. Really, it was an unusually stupid mistake for Charlie to waste a calculation like that. There is some irony there. Assuming the bracer has access to GK's collective history with Charlie, it could have built a sophisticated model of Charlie's behavior and predicted that he normally would come up with good questions to ask. At the same time, the bracer would have known that all Parson could have told Charlie was that Wanda had attuned with the Arkenpliers and could use it to decrypt the Archons. How hard could it have been for Charlie to figure that much out? (Charlie probably wouldn't have known, but the bracer would known that Stanley, Ansom and Wanda all wanted everyone to know about that, anyway.) That result of the calculation would have been equivalent to a "well, duh!" prediction, especially from the point of view of Parson and the bracer. Anyway, the point is that such predictions from the brace aren't necessarily all that useful. That would be particularly true of the bracer has limited information to use in its calculations. Garbage in = garbage out may apply in this case, like it does in real life.

[Lethologica]

While the question was bad, there were many opportunities for Parson to use the bracer on better ones, even if only to demonstrate its limitations.

On the other hand, Parson thinks the bracer is a liar...but even in that case, he should still be asking it questions, just with the aim of investigating it along with his other aims.

[-D-]

OK, but that's just in her head as far as we know. It came across as just an extension of her game with Ansom. She's so competitive, she doesn't like being saved more than she saves someone else. It would make her feel inferior. However, we also know that she doesn't like Charlie and that she would loose a huge competitor if Charlie croaked and that she was willing to defy Charlie at Spacerock. No doubt Charlie manipulate her to some extent with that, but I don't think it's a big deal.
Um, you just compared her at different time points. I mean at battle of Spacerock she didn't owe him anything. And Charlie was her competition when she was barbarian... Now she is queen.




Let's look at that one prediction. Really, it was an unusually stupid mistake for Charlie to waste a calculation like that. There is some irony there. Assuming the bracer has access to GK's collective history with Charlie, it could have built a sophisticated model of Charlie's behavior and predicted that he normally would come up with good questions to ask. At the same time, the bracer would have known that all Parson could have told Charlie was that Wanda had attuned with the Arkenpliers and could use it to decrypt the Archons. How hard could it have been for Charlie to figure that much out? (Charlie probably wouldn't have known, but the bracer would known that Stanley, Ansom and Wanda all wanted everyone to know about that, anyway.) That result of the calculation would have been equivalent to a "well, duh!" prediction, especially from the point of view of Parson and the bracer. Anyway, the point is that such predictions from the brace aren't necessarily all that useful. That would be particularly true of the bracer has limited information to use in its calculations. Garbage in = garbage out may apply in this case, like it does in real life.
Except for the fact that during Inferno it kept showing 0%. Which was exactly what happened. Explain how it shows 0.89% and replaces it with 0%.

[Yuki Akuma]

"Owe". It's "owe".

"Own" is an entirely different word.

[eschmenk]

While the question was bad, there were many opportunities for Parson to use the bracer on better ones, even if only to demonstrate its limitations.

On the other hand, Parson thinks the bracer is a liar...but even in that case, he should still be asking it questions, just with the aim of investigating it along with his other aims.

I'm not so sure that Parson thinks the bracer is a liar anymore. As I said before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?480954-Erfworld-Thread-VII-No-Consensus-Left-Unsealed&p=20830959#post20830959), I think that was just wishful thinking, which was understandable given the circumstances. We've seen him use the bracer at times, so he must still basically trust it.

IMO, Parson should have been using the bracer a fair amount, but he also should have been learning about Erfworld. I assume he was striking a reasonable balance.


Um, you just compared her at different time points. I mean at battle of Spacerock she didn't own him nothing. And Charlie was her competition when she was barbarian... Now she is queen.

Charlie had been helping Jillian a lot already before the Battle of Spacerock. Granted, it was more obvious that her life was on the line when Stanley went after her, but AFAIK, that's the only difference. Also, Jillian was acting like a mercenary even before she was a barbarian. Granted, under pressure from Don, she has been concentrating on setting up Faq as a stable kingdom, but she wouldn't have been doing that if she wasn't being paid to do that, so there still seems to be a mercenary mindset behind it. I wouldn't be at all surprised if, as soon as Faq was stable and Don wasn't paying her to do something else, she either go out and try to do more mercenary work or send Albert out on some easy jobs.


Except for the fact that during Inferno it kept showing 0%. Which was exactly what happened. Explain how it shows 0.89% and replaces it with 0%.

I don't understand why you think there is a problem there. You can read this comment (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?480954-Erfworld-Thread-VII-No-Consensus-Left-Unsealed&p=20830959&highlight=wishful+thinking#post20830959) and the comments after that. Maybe that will help.


"Owe". It's "owe".

Oh?


"Own" is an entirely different word.

I hate it when people use the wrong word. It hurts my ears! Owe! Owe! Owe!

[-D-]

Charlie had been helping Jillian a lot already before the Battle of Spacerock. Granted, it was more obvious that her life was on the line when Stanley went after her, but AFAIK, that's the only difference.
Well no, then Charlie was helping her kill Wanda and Ansom. She disliked doing both those things. He was bankrolling her, but he was obviously using her for his goals. In BoBA, he went out of his way to save her.


Also, Jillian was acting like a mercenary even before she was a barbarian. Granted, under pressure from Don, she has been concentrating on setting up Faq as a stable kingdom
Jillian (from Book 0) wanted to make a stable non-hidden kingdom. She never believed the Bubble kingdom will work. Also that mercenary stuff was needed to keep the coffers of FAQ filled. It was kinda necessary for her side. And she was competing with CC. Now her side is sponsored/protected by CC. Sure she doesn't trust Charlie too much, but she still considers in debt to him. And I'm sure it's only matter of time, before he comes to collect said debt.



I don't understand why you think there is a problem there. You can read this comment (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?480954-Erfworld-Thread-VII-No-Consensus-Left-Unsealed&p=20830959&highlight=wishful+thinking#post20830959) and the comments after that. Maybe that will help.
That explanation seems to involve Fate/Plot, so it kinda invalidates the point of using side's collective knowledge. Also Carnymancy + side collective knowledge doesn't explain why it kept flickering or how Ben "knew" he was Carnied. Did a vase spot that he was under effect of Carnymancy? Also notice that screen didn't flicker. Whatever is happening, I'm sure Fate/Plot Stay Rob is only thing that can simultaneously explain all things. Until we learn more, of course.




I hate it when people use the wrong word. It hurts my ears! Owe! Owe! Owe!
And I hate it when people pretend they are mindless automatons that can't handle some errors in natural languages. If you or anyone reading is a mindless automaton, please disregard previous sentence and never read poetry or Shakespeare for that matter. I can recommend reading Github (https://github.com/), just avoid code comments.

I also hate people that think language prescriptivism is still a thing.

[halfeye]

And I hate it when people pretend they are mindless automatons that can't handle some faults in natural languages. If you or anyone reading is a mindless automaton, please disregard previous sentence and never read poetry or Shakespeare for that matter. I can recommend reading Github (https://github.com/), just avoid code comments.

I'm not an automaton (so far as i know), but I hate poetry, mainly due to an "educational" paper "comic" called Jack and Jill that was about in the 1950s and early '60s.


I also hate people that think language prescriptivism is still a thing.

You mean, words mean whatever you want them to mean when you say them, and if other people don't understand you that's their problem?

[-D-]

You mean, words mean whatever you want them to mean when you say them, and if other people don't understand you that's their problem?
Prescriptivism means, "Words mean what I say they do! And stop using those nouns as verbs! And stop fidgeting, you're going to ruin your formal dress. And irregardless isn't a word. And I know what's best.". Basically bunch of pedants, in contrast to Descriptivists which are bunch of peasants.

To paraphrase Stephen Fry: how dense and deaf to language development do you have to be to think that you know better than everyone else? Natural language often contains so many wrong constructs, things you need to infer from context, that minor errors aren't a huge problem, unless you are looking for them.

And English is the greatest offender of them all. It essentially pillaged any language it liked for words and you end up with more exceptions than rules. /rant

I'm not saying you should never practice or strive to make your spelling better, but those occasions are IMO best left to professional context (e.g. job interview, book writting, etc.). I doubt Erfworld webcomic thread is a professional setting by any stretch of imagination (unless it's you, Rob).

If you are irritated and/or can't divulge from context that writer meant it's instead of its, or a lot instead of alot or I couldn't care less instead of I could care less - then yeah, welcome to the pedant club.

[Legato Endless]

Prescriptivism means, "Words mean what I say they do! And stop using those nouns as verbs! And stop fidgeting, you're going to ruin your formal dress. And irregardless isn't a word. And I know what's best.". Basically bunch of pedants, in contrast to Descriptivists which are bunch of peasants.

Well, no. Descriptivists are observers. Observing and understanding language in how it's actually used.

They don't have a contrast because what they value is orthogonal to the formalist traditions shouted down from on high. (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2011/10/06/continua-planes-and-false-dichotomies/)



I'm not saying you should never practice or strive to make your spelling better, but those occasions are IMO best left to professional context (e.g. job interview, book writting, etc.). I doubt Erfworld webcomic thread is a professional setting by any stretch of imagination (unless it's you, Rob).

Which is, ironically, why this is also a prescriptivist statement, being a value judgment on usage.

Also bad advice for mastery of anything, as consistency is necessary for efficient improvement. Contextual effort is the way of failure and languid progress. That said, if you don't care about your spelling improving period, then feel free to rock out casual.


And English is the greatest offender of them all. It essentially pillaged any language it liked for words and you end up with more exceptions than rules. /rant

It's more the actual rules that govern English aren't the ones people usually talked about. (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2012/06/04/what-descriptivism-is-and-isnt/)


...welcome to the pedant club.

It is a big club. I haven't met someone yet who did not have their fox hole. :smalltongue:

[eschmenk]

Well no, then Charlie was helping her kill Wanda and Ansom. She disliked doing both those things. He was bankrolling her, but he was obviously using her for his goals. In BoBA, he went out of his way to save her.

Jillian (from Book 0) wanted to make a stable non-hidden kingdom. She never believed the Bubble kingdom will work. Also that mercenary stuff was needed to keep the coffers of FAQ filled. It was kinda necessary for her side. And she was competing with CC. Now her side is sponsored/protected by CC. Sure she doesn't trust Charlie too much, but she still considers in debt to him. And I'm sure it's only matter of time, before he comes to collect said debt.

Jillian had wanted to capture and raze Valdez and she was happy to get Duncan Scone. It seemed as if Charlie expected her to kill Wanda in return for that and for Vanna's help, but she didn't. Charlie may have more leverage over Jillian now, but I don't think it's as clear as you are making it out to be.


Whatever is happening, I'm sure Fate/Plot Stay Rob is only thing that can simultaneously explain all things. Until we learn more, of course.

If you think it's possible that we can learn something that will explain it, then can't think that it's "most definitely" true that there can not be any rules that could explain it. Keep in mind that I've never said that I knew what the rules are; I've just said that we can't know that "whatever the plot needs at the moment" is the only possible rule.


And I hate it when people pretend they are mindless automatons that can't handle some faults in natural languages. If you or anyone reading is a mindless automaton, please disregard previous sentence and never read poetry or Shakespeare for that matter. I can recommend reading Github (https://github.com/), just avoid code comments.

I also hate people that think language prescriptivism is still a thing.

To be clear, I was just making a silly joke. I substitute words all the time, so I would have no room to complain about someone else doing it. I can't tell if you realized that or not.

[-D-]

Which is, ironically, why this is also a prescriptivist statement, being a value judgment on usage.
Sure, but I'm a pragmatist. If you try to be wild in your spellingz in a CV or a job application, or even homework, you shouldn't be surprised to find out that it lands you in the soup. Language is like a dress. You don't go to a date half naked in undies, no more than you sit in front of your computer alone wearing formal dress, suit, vest, tie and a top hat (I'm sure there are couple of exceptions).

Summary: I didn't expect The Grammar Inquisition in a thread about silly webcomic about memes.


Also bad advice for mastery of anything as consistency is necessary for efficient improvement.
That's also wrong, if you want to master something, you are best using what's called deliberate practice (http://www.businessinsider.com/anders-ericsson-how-to-become-an-expert-at-anything-2016-6) (i.e. homework). People using deliberate practice, outpaced those that clocked more time, because (and here is the shocker) deliberate practice focuses on strengthening your weakest points, while constant practice could just go over things your are Ok and never improve on your weak points.


Jillian had wanted to capture and raze Valdez and she was happy to get Duncan Scone. It seemed as if Charlie expected her to kill Wanda in return for that and for Vanna's help, but she didn't. Charlie may have more leverage over Jillian now, but I don't think it's as clear as you are making it out to be.
I never said it's clear, but it could be a clever way to fool audience into thinking they know Jillian and then Wham - She attacks for real. I think it's in the cards she attacks TV for real.

Lately, I wonder if Vanna is still there and TV are getting ready to preemptively attack and disable Vanna, leading Jillian to go save Vanna from TV? Wouldn't that make Jillian's attack on TV a self-fulfilling prophecy?



If you think it's possible that we can learn something that will explain it, then can't think that it's "most definitely" true that there can not be any rules that could explain it. Keep in mind that I've never said that I knew what the rules are; I've just said that we can't know that "whatever the plot needs at the moment" is the only possible rule.
Look, it's an artifact made by Fate Magic, that gives answers that simple Mathamancy can't give (Benjamin's words), which screams Predictamancy. The artifact seems to behave as if it has a mind of its own (Inferno at Space Rock) and the information it gives are sorta based on what units know, except when it isn't. That screams FAAAATE or plot convenience. It's not even always giving 100%/0% about pasts events (e.g. Charlie being behind Goblin disappearance).



I was just making a silly joke. I substitute words all the time, so I would have no room to complain about someone else doing it.
Welp :smallredface: In my defense, it was hard to understand that as a joke, without no smilies... But it still applies to anyone bitching about missing commas and apostrophes.

[Yuki Akuma]

I think pointing out that someone's using "own" ("to possess") when they mean "owe" ("to have an obligation to repay") is something both a prescriptivist and a descriptivist would do.

You know, until everyone started using "own" as a synonym for "owe", in which case they'd get into heated flame wars over it. But I don't think many people who speak English natively do that.

[Lethologica]

Yep, no real spark for linguistic flame wars here. For now we'll have to content ourselves with typo wars.

[-D-]

I think pointing out that someone's using "own" ("to possess") when they mean "owe" ("to have an obligation to repay") is something both a prescriptivist and a descriptivist would do.

You know, until everyone started using "own" as a synonym for "owe", in which case they'd get into heated flame wars over it. But I don't think many people who speak English natively do that.
Yeah, but only prescriptivist would bother correcting you.

And for the record, I'm not a native English speaker.

[Lethologica]

I used to be a typo-correcting descriptivist. Still am--on Quora, where there's a "Suggest Edits" feature. Elsewhere, I simply wearied of adding writing form to the scope of discussion. I have definite views on the matter, which is one reason why I edit my own posts so often, but I just can't be arsed to impose them.

[-D-]

That all aside, someone on Erfworld forums pointed that Jillian already tried to screw over TV and Jetstone - by having Wanda join FAQ with Jack and Ansom, sacking Spacerock and then standing up to their backers (TV and CC). So Jack's stories aren't that far off the mark.

[stsasser]

When Faq attacks TV, is da Prince's task to shiv Vinnie?

Makes sense of that whole wistful 'I wish I wuz TV's heir' thing. lulling Vinnie into complacency...especially since that is what he would become if the attack is successful.

[eschmenk]

Welp :smallredface: In my defense, it was hard to understand that as a joke, without no smilies... But it still applies to anyone bitching about missing commas and apostrophes.

The reason for the mock seriousness was that it was an attempt at hypocritical humor. (It contained a word substitution related to yours: owe for either ow or owie.) It didn't occur to me that someone might think I was trying to pound "owe" into your head, which I guess is how you took it. I had assumed that your substitution was merely a typo. I hadn't noticed that you had used "own" earlier and I thought Yuki was overreacting. That's why I wasn't taking things seriously. I had even preceded it with a little pun.


That all aside, someone on Erfworld forums pointed that Jillian already tried to screw over TV and Jetstone - by having Wanda join FAQ with Jack and Ansom, sacking Spacerock and then standing up to their backers (TV and CC). So Jack's stories aren't that far off the mark.

That's one reason I think Jillian still thinks like a mercenary and why I tend to discount the idea that she would feel much of an obligation to repay favors as a matter of honor. Charlie would need additional leverage, I think; maybe either a promise to get Wanda out of her jamb in the MK if Parson dies or a threat against Jillian. Also, I'm not sure how much difference Jillian could make. Does Charlie actually need her?

Also, don't forget that Jillian seemed to betray both sides during the Battle of GK. We don't know what she was thinking or if she was already under a suggestion spell from Wanda, but she acted somewhat as if she wanted to be captured by GK and there was no indication that she felt any guilt over turning over Ansom's battle plans to Wanda. Then she seemed to betray Wanda by attacking GK's injured dragons. So, yeah, Jack's stories weren't far off.

[Binks]

The bracer is just repeating what Ceasar said maybe with a little input from King Don and the others' belief. The TV head honchos aren't as game-savvy as Parson so the bracer's answers are likewise less accurate. Jillian is flying to GK city.

Edit to add - Binks, there was at least one counter-example. Parson asked the bracer what happened to the Goblins after book 1 and it answered in probabilities.
Ahh. I had missed that one. And it's a very good counter-example.

I also finally found the book 3 crown example I was looking for (hidden in the second part of a different text story) and it also contains a few minor counter-examples of past/present events (GK's treasury vs. Trans's treasury) being given %'s. So it's not a 1/0 thing for past events. Sad.

[-D-]

That's one reason I think Jillian still thinks like a mercenary and why I tend to discount the idea that she would feel much of an obligation to repay favors as a matter of honor.
Jillian does have a sense of "right" and "wrong". I think Jillian is a bit closer to CC/TV than she was in Book 2. She pictures Don as father, when he is more like a peer. I think doing him a solid by attacking TV if they attack Vanna pre-emptively is a good enough reason.



I think; maybe either a promise to get Wanda out of her jamb in the MK if Parson dies or a threat against Jillian. Also, I'm not sure how much difference Jillian could make. Does Charlie actually need her?
I don't think she cares about Wanda anymore. She was acting very aloof on the topic of Wanda being captured/croaked (she did consider it impossible, but didn't care). If Charlie says Killing/Capturing Parson is biggest blow you can inflict upon Stanley, she'd probably run up to TV no questions asked.

[DigoDragon]

When Faq attacks TV, is da Prince's task to shiv Vinnie?

Makes sense of that whole wistful 'I wish I wuz TV's heir' thing. lulling Vinnie into complacency...especially since that is what he would become if the attack is successful.

Oooh, that would be a sneaky tactic up the prince's alley. O_O

[Anteros]

So, is Rob just padding page numbers with comics where nothing happens since he's getting paid by the page now? It certainly seems that we've been getting a lot more empty and repetitive updates since that system started.

[Ubiq]

Makes sense of that whole wistful 'I wish I wuz TV's heir' thing. lulling Vinnie into complacency...especially since that is what he would become if the attack is successful.

Another possibility is that Albert is thinking of telling Vinnie what is going on and then switching sides but wants to know if Transylvito would be any better for him than Faq.

[-D-]

So, is Rob just padding page numbers with comics where nothing happens since he's getting paid by the page now? It certainly seems that we've been getting a lot more empty and repetitive updates since that system started.

No friggin idea. I'm not sure if it's misaligned incentives, or poor writing. This comic is just one of those "We know" (http://robertjacksonbennett.com/blog/jessica-jones-and-the-problem-of-forward-momentum-or-marvel-needs-a-goddamn-editor) moments.

Basically, we know TV will ally with GK, we know Janis will say yes, we know that plan won't work. We need to skip that and get to part we don't know...

[Zalabim]

No friggin idea. I'm not sure if it's misaligned incentives, or poor writing. This comic is just one of those "We know" (http://robertjacksonbennett.com/blog/jessica-jones-and-the-problem-of-forward-momentum-or-marvel-needs-a-goddamn-editor) moments.

That link, man. So he didn't understand how the show started (she's not a superhero, she's haunted by Kilgrave who is supposed to be dead) or pick up the questions it was asking to be answered (How did Kilgrave survive? Can our heroine save the girl, protect her friends, and stop the villain? Will this help her rebuild her own life and move past her own trauma?) or finish watching it to find out how important everything he complained about in episode 4 was. It's a good example of poor pacing, but he completely failed to support his argument for why.

[-D-]

That link, man. So he didn't understand how the show started (she's not a superhero, she's haunted by Kilgrave who is supposed to be dead) or pick up the questions it was asking to be answered (How did Kilgrave survive? Can our heroine save the girl, protect her friends, and stop the villain? Will this help her rebuild her own life and move past her own trauma?) or finish watching it to find out how important everything he complained about in episode 4 was. It's a good example of poor pacing, but he completely failed to support his argument for why.
It still illustrates a large part of how I feel about Erfworld even if it doesn't matches Jessica Jones. It's not equivalent. It used to be super exciting Book 1, but now the story feels too predictable and rote.


So he didn't understand how the show started (she's not a superhero, she's haunted by Kilgrave who is supposed to be dead)
Jessica Jones is a super powered individual that dreamt of being a superhero (even if she wasn't a caped crusader). She is a super powered individual and is a hero (to a certain extent). So I'm not sure what you mean here by not being a superhero. If she's not a superhero, then neither is Wolverine.

As for the rest, why should audience care how Kilgrave survived? We established he survived. Saving a girl is a thing that happens in this episode, how does that influence rest of episodes? What changes in overall story arc? Did her death leave some clue to where he is, or is Jessica just going around finding Kilgrave's trophies with no overarching story.

If you can't manage to raise enough momentum/interest before episode 4, I believe his point is valid. Even if he didn't watch it to the end. The start was too slow.

[DigoDragon]

So, is Rob just padding page numbers with comics where nothing happens since he's getting paid by the page now? It certainly seems that we've been getting a lot more empty and repetitive updates since that system started.

I am disappointed that we got another scene switch. I was looking forward to Don and Parson's chat.
At least it's interesting to see Janis wanting Marie decrypted. Would that affect her Predictamancy, I wonder?

Going back about twenty pages and then reading everything together, it does jump around a good bit between the different groups. And there are a LOT of groups being tracked right now.

[Chromascope3D]

I don't mind the text documents once in a while, but do we really need them? I feel like even without them in Book One, he still did a pretty good job of blending story and world-building, since it was done entirely through dialogue and the visual language of comics. I mean, we did have text updates, but other than the eyebook conversations, they didn't feel like they were integral to the story so much as fun optional deals. So much so that when blowing through the Book 2 archive for the first time I honestly skipped all of the text updates because I didn't know they were important, because I just wanted to get back to the comic action.

I honestly really do feel like these text updates are a problem. For instance, if you asked me to, I would not be able to identify a single archon by name because all of their characterization happened in text. I have no idea what each of them looks like! I know they've each been accompanied by a single image apiece but, come on now. If it had been done in comic form, even if they were just talking heads spouting exposition, at least I'd be able to recognize them by face. :P

[Jasdoif]

So, is Rob just padding page numbers with comics where nothing happens since he's getting paid by the page now? It certainly seems that we've been getting a lot more empty and repetitive updates since that system started.I think we're getting whatever Rob's come up with by the time update day comes along, rather than getting a page when it feels complete. I also suspect he's writing all dialog for text updates and dropping it directly into the comics when he has comic art available, but that's been going on throughout Book 3.

While this page seems like a bunch of lost opportunities, it does tell us something: Janis will cast the spell if Wanda's condemned. Not help break her out in advance, as might have been expected (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/156)...so if the Great Minds actually want their price (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/167), they have an incentive to make sure the trial goes against Wanda. And Roger hasn't been doing well on playing with others so far.

[Aquillion]

Wait, what's their solution to the problem of Flower Power not stopping bullets (mentioned on that page?)

[HalfTangible]

Wait, what's their solution to the problem of Flower Power not stopping bullets (mentioned on that page?)

Uh, they specifically said that the spell would prevent the guns from working too

[Yuki Akuma]

Wait, what's their solution to the problem of Flower Power not stopping bullets (mentioned on that page?)

Their solution is "Flower Power + Thinkamancy stops people pulling the trigger".

[Jasdoif]

Wait, what's their solution to the problem of Flower Power not stopping bullets (mentioned on that page?)I imagine it's the difference between forcing attacks to resolve with minimum force (which was described way back in Book 0 (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%200/12)), and preventing attacks from being attempted in the first place.

[DigoDragon]

So, like the D&D "Sanctuary" spell to grab all the prisoners and shuffle 'em out to GK space without being attacked?

[-D-]

New comic.

Interesting hook.

[Xihirli]

Is Charlie the Satan of erfworld? He was cast down by the other titans and now he's taking over the erf?

[Winterwind]

I don't mind the text documents once in a while, but do we really need them? I feel like even without them in Book One, he still did a pretty good job of blending story and world-building, since it was done entirely through dialogue and the visual language of comics. I mean, we did have text updates, but other than the eyebook conversations, they didn't feel like they were integral to the story so much as fun optional deals. So much so that when blowing through the Book 2 archive for the first time I honestly skipped all of the text updates because I didn't know they were important, because I just wanted to get back to the comic action.

I honestly really do feel like these text updates are a problem. For instance, if you asked me to, I would not be able to identify a single archon by name because all of their characterization happened in text. I have no idea what each of them looks like! I know they've each been accompanied by a single image apiece but, come on now. If it had been done in comic form, even if they were just talking heads spouting exposition, at least I'd be able to recognize them by face. :PPersonally, I have quite the opposite view - invariably, I find the text updates convey just so much more interesting information, that most of the time, whenever I see a comic update, I feel disappointed, knowing we could have had so much more instead. It's not even about advancing plot - it's about the fascinating little details, the added depth, which the comic updates never can go into. Like the intricacies of all of the various magic disciplines, the completely different ways Thinkamancers or Foolamancers or Dirtamancers perceive the world, and the special limitations, oddities and dangers of them (like we learnt regarding Luckamancy in Book 0). Or the backstories of even very secondary characters, that add to giving even them personality, instead of having them just be faceless goons. Like the chicken-breeding Archon. Or Sylvia, who otherwise would have been just a random warlord. I find the amount of thought that goes into even the tiniest details in Erfworld to be incredibly fascinating, and definitely its biggest strength.

It is true that as consequence we don't know things like the faces of the Archons as well, but on the other hand, I'd rather not know the faces of characters I know, than know the faces of flat minions who mean nothing to me. After all, when reading a book, I don't know the faces of the characters either, beyond what my imagination has to offer. And that's pretty much what I've come to consider Erfworld as - a book, which happens to occasionally have illustrations (which, don't get me wrong, I really like to get, because Xin's art is amazingly beautiful - but I'd still rather illustrated text, than flat-out comics). And for the record, I've been reading Erfworld since early on in Book 1, when it was being published here on GitP, so it's not like I've only joined when text updates became so much more of the norm.



Unrelatedly: Has there been any speculation on whether there is any connection between the code word that Transylvito units respond to being "Rubicon" and Caesar being named, well, Caesar? I would imagine it hints at him eventually rebelling against Don King after all and using that code word in some fashion, but maybe there are some more elaborate theories on that?

[-D-]

Is Charlie the Satan of erfworld? He was cast down by the other titans and now he's taking over the erf?

Please don't be daft. There is 0% chance that happens.

@Winterwind: Nowadays text moves plot more, but only because comics managed to slow themselves to text speed levels. Even text feels slower now. We had months and months of TV negotiating with GK.

As for background info, I prefer for it to be implied or given in form of flashback.

[Killer Angel]

Please don't be daft. There is 0% chance that happens.


A more valid question could be "does Parson really believe in this theory?"
He knows / thinks that Erfworld is a resemblance of Stupidworld, so maybe he's reading more in that "Charlie's Angels (Charlie Fallen Angel?)

Or, putting it in another way: there's an old SF book, Zelazny's "Lord of Light (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_Light)", where the supposed gods are, indeed, humans with tech, self-appointed gods.

[DigoDragon]

Interesting hook.

Indeed. Finally at this meeting and with just one page I'm really interested. ^_^

[Razade]

Chapter does a great job making Don a little more likable honestly. It's about time characters become a little more reasonable.

[-D-]

Indeed. Finally at this meeting and with just one page I'm really interested. ^_^

I bet next page is something unrelated :smallwink: Overall I agree, it's actually a pretty decent update!


A more valid question could be "does Parson really believe in this theory?"
He knows / thinks that Erfworld is a resemblance of Stupidworld, so maybe he's reading more in that "Charlie's Angels (Charlie Fallen Angel?)

Or, putting it in another way: there's an old SF book, Zelazny's "Lord of Light (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_Light)", where the supposed gods are, indeed, humans with tech, self-appointed gods.
Literally - no. A Titan would just wipe Parson, like an annoying stain.

I think he might say something along the lines "Charlie is a Titanic *******" or just explaining how dangerous he truly is.

[ryuplaneswalker]

A more valid question could be "does Parson really believe in this theory?"

Nope.

Parson is playing the best card he can right now. "Make Don as paranoid as possible"

[guttering flame]

Nope.

Parson is playing the best card he can right now. "Make Don as paranoid as possible"

How does this strategy benefit Parson? If Don believes Charlie is a Titan, he'll become obeisant to Charlie and obey all his commandments. Why would Parson want that?

[-D-]

How does this strategy benefit Parson? If Don believes Charlie is a Titan, he'll become obeisant to Charlie and obey all his commandments. Why would Parson want that?

Simple. He isn't trying to convince Don that Charles is a Titan. He, might mention that CC has hacked their portals to allow them to pour in Archons at the drop of the hat. And then mention he is Fated to kill Charles.

Don realizes that he should not interfere with that Fate.

[smuchmuch]

I think he's trying to open so to get on a "Charlie thinks he's a Titan and therefore has no respect for others rules and is dangerous" or "Titans aren't real (or maybe not anymore), but people who keep war on Erfworld are" or maybe "Charlie is trying to manipulate Fate" angle ?

When you think about it, charlie, .. the gret minds that think alike fot that matter, and lot of what seems to be the "rules" of the magic kingdom, seem to be those who are profitng of the status quo the most.

[Killer Angel]

Literally - no. A Titan would just wipe Parson, like an annoying stain.


Sure. If you believe that Titans are Real Gods and not some smart, powerful being. Any proof that Parson is a religious erfworlder?


Edit: i don't think that Parson really believes it, but your is not a counterargument.

[eschmenk]

How does this strategy benefit Parson? If Don believes Charlie is a Titan, he'll become obeisant to Charlie and obey all his commandments. Why would Parson want that?

Don King was concerned that Parson was a Titan. That didn't keep Don King from locking him in his dungeon and being too afraid to approach him. Granted, that was Caesar's order, but Don King didn't push back against it.

Apparently, Don King thinks that Titans can go rogue or that there can be demi-Titans or he just doesn't have a better term for an unusually powerful person who doesn't obey the known rules. In any case, Don King doesn't seem to have any inclination to obey someone like that.

Here is a very important point: Parson's statement about Charlie should help convince Don that Parson thinks like Don does and make Parson seem like someone who would be a good ally. Don said that he was worried about Parson being a Titan, so Parson said that he was worried about Charlie being a Titan. It would seem natural to Don for them to join up and fight the common enemy that both would be worried about. That's probably part of what Parson was thinking, anyway. (Yes, the entire situation is more complicated than that, but what Parson said should help.)

[-D-]

Sure. If you believe that Titans are Real Gods and not some smart, powerful being. Any proof that Parson is a religious erfworlder?

Parson was told what Titans are. Not to mention, whenever something achieves something difficult or impossible, it's described as Titanic. Even if he doesn't believe he has a grasp of their power.

[Killer Angel]

Parson was told what Titans are. Not to mention, whenever something achieves something difficult, it's described as Titanic.

Not to mention Jack told him Charlie is a Carny.

Parson was told what other believe Titans are. Parson could think Titans are something different.

I am probably wrong, but it's not impossible : because even if it’s a bluff, Parson must have some believable reasoning to support his assertion.

[ryuplaneswalker]

How does this strategy benefit Parson? If Don believes Charlie is a Titan, he'll become obeisant to Charlie and obey all his commandments. Why would Parson want that?

Don isn't remotely a true believer, the moment Titanism would become a threat to his throne he would chuck it aside as quickly as he did his stance that Hiers weren't really useful.

[Razade]

Parson was told what Titans are.

By whom? Religious people who have never met their gods? Seems like a good group to poll about what the Titans are. No bias there at all.

[HalfTangible]

By whom? Religious people who have never met their gods? Seems like a good group to poll about what the Titans are. No bias there at all.

'Bias' has literally nothing to do with it at all. The fact is that no unit has any basis for what the Titans are other than their religious text. That's not bias, that's just lack of information, which is also irrelevant since Don's question pertained to the all-powerful nature of the religious figures referred to as Titans. (If we were talking about their moral nature you'd have a point)

Also, why do people assume Charlie being a Titan is a literal thing?

[-D-]

By whom? Religious people who have never met their gods? Seems like a good group to poll about what the Titans are. No bias there at all.
Sure, but he knows they are gods. His silent speech cloud indicates as much. He knows Don asked him essentially, are you a god.

And then Parson trolled him about Charlie being one.

[Anteros]

Also, why do people assume Charlie being a Titan is a literal thing?

I don't know why people are assuming either things are literal. There is no way that Don King actually thinks Parson is a Titan. He asked the question in order to get a handle on Parson's view of himself. It was not literal.

Meanwhile, Parson is responding in an attempt to put Don off balance, and gauge him as well. He is also not being literal.


I guess it's possible that I'm completely wrong and both characters are actually being literal, but I kinda doubt it.

[Razade]

Sure, but he knows they are gods. His silent speech cloud indicates as much. He knows Don asked him essentially, are you a god.

No he doesn't. He knows that people in Erfworld think they're gods. That's no where near the same thing.

[-D-]

No he doesn't. He knows that people in Erfworld think they're gods. That's no where near the same thing.
I did not say he believes there is such a thing as a Titan. In fact, I claimed the opposite. He doesn't need to believe in one to be aware what kind of reputation they have. They can modify terrain types, create portals, etc. If he had such being against him, he would be dead... A Titan could probably grab him and throw him into a portal that leads into lava. Off turn.

[Razade]

I did not say he believes there is such a thing as a Titan. In fact, I claimed the opposite. He doesn't need to believe in one to be aware what kind of reputation they have. They can modify terrain types, create portals, etc. If he had such being against him, he would be dead... A Titan could probably grab him and throw him into a portal that leads into lava. Off turn.

I quoted you directly.


Sure, but he knows they are gods. His silent speech cloud indicates as much. He knows Don asked him essentially, are you a god.


The underlined they refers to the Titans. You said he knows they are gods. You didn't claim opposite of that what so ever. You claimed he knows the Titans are gods. Which he doesn't. We don't even know for sure if he believes there are Titans in the first place. Or if there are gods in the first place. We don't know Parson's ontological, epistemological or cosmological leanings. In Erfworld or Stupidworld.

[HalfTangible]

I quoted you directly.




The underlined they refers to the Titans. You said he knows they are gods. You didn't claim opposite of that what so ever. You claimed he knows the Titans are gods. Which he doesn't. We don't even know for sure if he believes there are Titans in the first place. Or if there are gods in the first place. We don't know Parson's ontological, epistemological or cosmological leanings. In Erfworld or Stupidworld.

Razade, that is not what 'he knows what Titans are' means you know it :smallannoyed:

[Razade]

Razade, that is not what 'he knows what Titans are' means you know it :smallannoyed:

Except -D- isn't saying he knows that there are things that are called Titans. He's saying Parson knows they're gods. Which Parson doesn't.

[-D-]

Except -D- isn't saying he knows that there are things that are called Titans. He's saying Parson knows they're gods. Which Parson doesn't.
Way to be literal minded about that. I don't have to believe in Zeus to claim Bob is Zeus, jokingly.

And I don't have to believe in Zeus to know that if he is real, if myths are true and he wants me dead, I'm dead as disco.

To be clear, Parson has knowledge that there are myths about beings Erfers refer to as Titans, and that they essentially gods of Erfworld.

I'm not native speaker, but saying "Parson knows they are gods" in context of my messages, should be enough to distinguish between that and "Parson is a toolist".

Knows according to dictionary means : to have knowledge concerning some topic.

[Anteros]

Yes he does. He knows they are considered gods to erfworlders. That's not the same thing as personally acknowledging their existence or power. How are you not getting this?

[Razade]

Yes he does. He knows they are considered gods to erfworlders. That's not the same thing as personally acknowledging their existence or power. How are you not getting this?

You didn't quote anyone so is that directed at me, I honestly can't tell. Because


No he doesn't. He knows that people in Erfworld think they're gods. That's no where near the same thing.

You and I are in agreement. If not, disregard.


Way to be literal minded about that. I don't have to believe in Zeus to claim Bob is Zeus, jokingly.

And I don't have to believe in Zeus to know that if he is real, if myths are true and he wants me dead, I'm dead as disco.

To be clear, Parson has knowledge that there are myths about beings Erfers refer to as Titans, and that they essentially gods of Erfworld.

I'm not native speaker, but saying "Parson knows they are gods" in context of my messages, should be enough to distinguish between that and "Parson is a toolist".

Knows according to dictionary means : to have knowledge concerning some topic.


When you say "he knows they are gods" that means he has the knowledge that they're gods. When you say "he knows people think they're gods", that means he knows...well that people think they're gods. One is personal knowledge regarding something, the other is personal knowledge regarding people's claims. That's why they're different. That's why I pointed out you're incorrect with your wording. That's not being literal minded. That's pointing out that Parson doesn't actually know they're anything. He just knows what people tell him.

[HalfTangible]

Except -D- isn't saying he knows that there are things that are called Titans. He's saying Parson knows they're gods. Which Parson doesn't.

Yes he does

Do you need to be dead or a religious person to understand the concept of heaven?

You're being ridiculous.

[Razade]

Yes he does

Do you need to be dead or a religious person to understand the concept of heaven?

You're being ridiculous.

How is this hard to get? We're not talking about concepts, we're talking about facts. Parson knows the concept of erfworld Titans through other people. Parson doesn't know that the Titans are, for a fact, gods. They. Aren't. The. Same. Thing.

Example. I know the concept of Sting Theory, I can define it for you, I can explain the concept. I do not know String Theory. I can't apply it. I can't use it as an application. My knowledge of String Theory is merely that it exists. That it's a thing. The veracity of it, the actuality of it, I don't know because I don't understand it. I have no actual knowledge of String Theory.

Now replace "I" for Parson and "string theory" for Titans.

Parson knows the concept of the Titans. He can define it for you. He can explain the concept. Parson doesn't know the Titans. He can't apply them. He can't use them as an application. Parson's knowledge of String Theory is that they're claimed to exist. That people think they're a thing. The veracity of it, the actuality of it, he doesn't know. He has no actual knowledge of the Titans. Ergo, he doesn't know if the Titans are Gods. Merely that people say they are.

Seriously. Like squeezing water from a stone.

[-D-]

@Razade: That seems unreasonably pedantic. If I was asked "Who is Heracles" and I answered, "Well, I know Heracles is a demigod" doesn't need to be expanded into "Well, I know that people thought Heracles was a Demigod" or "Well, I read about Heracles being a Demigod" or "Well, I meet Heracles and he was a Demigod".
It can be inferred from context of me being a modern day scholar, me being mythology buff or me being a braggart.

Now, sure statement leaves place for disambiguation, but it should be obvious from context of my messages what I meant. No natural language is without ambiguity.

[Razade]

@Razade: That seems unreasonably pedantic. If I was asked "Who is Heracles" and I answered, "Well, I know Heracles is a demigod" doesn't need to be expanded into "Well, I know that people thought Heracles was a Demigod" or "Well, I read about Heracles being a Demigod" or "Well, I meet Heracles and he was a Demigod".
It can be inferred from context of me being a modern day scholar, me being ancient Greek mythology buff or me being a braggart.

Now, sure statement leaves place for disambiguation, but it should be obvious from context of my messages what I meant. No natural language is without ambiguity.

It isn't pedantic, it's being proper with the word usage. Because you have said Parson knows that the Titans are gods. And then used that to buttress your assumption that Parson is lying about thinking Charlie is one.

[HalfTangible]

How is this hard to get? We're not talking about concepts, we're talking about facts. Parson knows the concept of erfworld Titans through other people. Parson doesn't know that the Titans are, for a fact, gods. They. Aren't. The. Same. Thing.

I get it just fine, but you are deliberately misrepresenting what -D- actually said.

"Parson knows that the Titans are gods" can mean either that Parson knows what Titans are as a concept or what they literally are. You are taking the latter interpretation and ignoring the former as even a remote possibility because... I dunno, -D- wasn't explicit enough?


It isn't pedantic, it's being proper with the word usage. Because you have said Parson knows that the Titans are gods. And then used that to buttress your assumption that Parson is lying about thinking Charlie is one.That's a yes.

English does not work like that.

His word usage was just fine.

[Jasdoif]

How is this hard to get? We're not talking about concepts, we're talking about facts. Parson knows the concept of erfworld Titans through other people. Parson doesn't know that the Titans are, for a fact, gods. They. Aren't. The. Same. Thing.But "Titans" is the concept. Parson only knows the concept of Erfworld Titans through their description as gods. No entities that are not gods can fit that "Titans" concept, so any claims that the Titans are not gods are necessarily false.

The only question of fact would be whether the Titans actually exist in Erfworld (as opposed to being fictional constructs in Erfworld), not whether or not the Titans are gods.

[Razade]

But "Titans" is the concept. Parson only knows the concept of Erfworld Titans through their description as gods. No entities that are not gods can fit that "Titans" concept, so any claims that the Titans are not gods are necessarily false.

The only question of fact would be whether the Titans actually exist in Erfworld (as opposed to being fictional constructs in Erfworld), not whether or not the Titans are gods.

Except the Titans could have existed and not been gods. The definition could be wrong, the people who thought that the Titans were gods could be wrong. To even state that "no entities that are not gods can fit that Titans because the word Titan means God" concept is simply appealing to false attribution. No Erfworlder we've met has interacted with a Titan. They've merely got the Scriptures claiming the Titans are somehow godly.

[Jasdoif]

The definition could be wrong, the people who thought that the Titans were gods could be wrong.The definition of Titans as the term's been used in Erfworld consistently involves their role as gods. If whatever classification you're personally using for "Titans" doesn't require them to be gods, your classification is simply not the same as Erfworld's...in which case I don't think it's fair to evaluate Parson on whether or not his use of the term conforms to your definition.

[lord_khaine]

Wow.. trying to follow this topic almost makes my head spin. Im not sure there are 2 people on this side actually arguing the same thing..

[ryuplaneswalker]

How is this hard to get? We're not talking about concepts, we're talking about facts. Parson knows the concept of erfworld Titans through other people. Parson doesn't know that the Titans are, for a fact, gods. They. Aren't. The. Same. Thing.

Actually he could (and should) have read up on the book of titans in GK's library, he very well could know that Erfworld Titans are as far as anyone but the readers know Captial G Gods.

[Gez]

How is this hard to get? We're not talking about concepts, we're talking about facts. Parson knows the concept of erfworld Titans through other people. Parson doesn't know that the Titans are, for a fact, gods. They. Aren't. The. Same. Thing.

Pedantic difference. I do not believe that Zeus exists or ever existed, but I still know he's a god of the ancient Greeks. I am well aware that Corellon Larethian is a fictional being, but I still know he's a god of elves in some D&D settings.

Parson doesn't need to apply a scientific test of godhood to the Titans to know that they are gods. How would you even do that anyway? The only real criterion on whether something is a god or not is whether it is considered as such in a religion. You do not need to believe in said religion.

[Anteros]

Wow.. trying to follow this topic almost makes my head spin. Im not sure there are 2 people on this side actually arguing the same thing..

Kinda seems like everyone disagreeing with Razade to me, with him intentionally misreading everyone's points to continue the argument.

[Recaiden]

I agree with Anteros.

Personally, it seems that Parson is just trying to scare Don.

[Bobb]

I tell you what if the next update does not contain Parson in a jail cell....

[lord_khaine]

Actually that sounds very, very likely. This is the perfect place to cut away.

[-D-]

Actually that sounds very, very likely. This is the perfect place to cut away.
If by perfect you mean irritating, then yes.

[Lethologica]

Pedantic difference. I do not believe that Zeus exists or ever existed, but I still know he's a god of the ancient Greeks. I am well aware that Corellon Larethian is a fictional being, but I still know he's a god of elves in some D&D settings.

Parson doesn't need to apply a scientific test of godhood to the Titans to know that they are gods. How would you even do that anyway? The only real criterion on whether something is a god or not is whether it is considered as such in a religion. You do not need to believe in said religion.
Razade is making a distinction not between real gods and fictional gods, but between real gods and real non-gods. Broad analogy: if a man behind a curtain sets up a disembodied voice for people to call the Wizard of Oz, that doesn't make him a wizard, it just makes people believe there's a wizard. To Don, "I think Charlie is the Wizard" means Charlie is a puissant mage with a booming voice; to Parson, it might mean Charlie is a con man with a microphone.

Parson knows the Titans are gods in Don's mind. That's all that's relevant if Parson is just bluffing. But if he means what he's saying, then Razade's implied question becomes relevant: what does Parson think the Titans are? I don't know that there's another answer to that question besides the boring one, but it is a legitimate thing to ask.

[Jasdoif]

Parson knows the Titans are gods in Don's mind. That's all that's relevant if Parson is just bluffing. But if he means what he's saying, then Razade's implied question becomes relevant: what does Parson think the Titans are? I don't know that there's another answer to that question besides the boring one, but it is a legitimate thing to ask.Hmm. That could be why I wasn't following...."Who or what, if anything, does Parson think occupies the role Erfworlders attribute to the Titans?" seems a more descriptive phrasing of that question.

[Razade]

Razade is making a distinction not between real gods and fictional gods, but between real gods and real non-gods. Broad analogy: if a man behind a curtain sets up a disembodied voice for people to call the Wizard of Oz, that doesn't make him a wizard, it just makes people believe there's a wizard. To Don, "I think Charlie is the Wizard" means Charlie is a puissant mage with a booming voice; to Parson, it might mean Charlie is a con man with a microphone.

I really don't see how it was that hard to follow.

[DigoDragon]

Actually that sounds very, very likely. This is the perfect place to cut away.

If by perfect you mean irritating, then yes.

Oof, I really would like to just focus on this scene to it's conclusion before cutting away.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Parson knows the Titans are gods in Don's mind. That's all that's relevant if Parson is just bluffing. But if he means what he's saying, then Razade's implied question becomes relevant: what does Parson think the Titans are? I don't know that there's another answer to that question besides the boring one, but it is a legitimate thing to ask.

The second question is irrelevant.

Parson -knows- Charlie's Origins, Jack told him everything post decryption.

[-D-]

I really don't see how it was that hard to follow.
It's hard to get to that point because:
A) Parson knows, that Titans according to myth , have Retcon powers and many other god level powers
B) Parson is still in Erfworld
C) Jack told Parson that Charles is a Carny
D) Parson himself expressed his disbelief in Titans

[SZbNAhL]

The second question is irrelevant.

Parson -knows- Charlie's Origins, Jack told him everything post decryption.

He knows what Charlie was up to before he ran Charlescomm; he doesn't know his origin. It's no less likely that The Wizard was a fallen titan, a stupidworlder, Parson time-travelling or whatever other theory anybody comes up with than that Charlie is those things.

[ryuplaneswalker]

He knows what Charlie was up to before he ran Charlescomm; he doesn't know his origin. It's no less likely that The Wizard was a fallen titan, a stupidworlder, Parson time-travelling or whatever other theory anybody comes up with than that Charlie is those things.

-shrug- I think it is a very large leap of logic to say that "Charlie is a titan" is a plausible theory given what we know about him.

Especially since if he were a Titan one would think he could Retconjur the Hero Buds.

[MReav]

-shrug- I think it is a very large leap of logic to say that "Charlie is a titan" is a plausible theory given what we know about him.

Especially since if he were a Titan one would think he could Retconjur the Hero Buds.

One would think he would Retconjure being immobile.

[-D-]

One would think he would Retconjure being immobile.
Maybe he is a Fallen Titan, which is actually Parson from an alternative universe. IN THE FUTURE.

[Leewei]

Very neat twist from Parson on Friday.

Parson and Jack must both know and account for the idea that anything Parson says will be treated with a huge amount of skepticism. That being said, it is very likely that Parson is not genuinely trying to sell Charlie as a Titan. This seems to be leading to selling Charlie as someone who is attempting to seize the power of the Titans. Don would be suspicious of Parson telling him straight up that Charlie is messing around with Titanic magic. Parson's evidence of Charlie being a Titan gives Don the same pile of evidence, and gets Don to think he's smarter than Parson by reaching his "own" conclusion.

If Don thinks Charlie is a heretic, he'll be a lot more likely to make a deal with Gobwin Knob to put the screws to Charlie.

[Xihirli]

Maybe he is a Fallen Titan, which is actually Parson from an alternative universe. IN THE FUTURE.

That would not be a joke in a thread about Dr. McNinja.

[-D-]

That would not be a joke in a thread about Dr. McNinja.
If Erfworld had the same pacing as Dr. McNinja I'd still support it.

But Erfworld ain't Dr. McNinja. And Charlie is most likely not a fallen Titan.

[Binks]

New update. (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/178)

Can anyone read the full message in the bottom picture? I can get most of it, but not all.

"yes - he's ??????
not ready to share intel - want answers from you first
Is GK serious about peace with (us?)"

[Razade]

New update. (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/178)

Can anyone read the full message in the bottom picture? I can get most of it, but not all.

"yes - he's ??????
not ready to share intel - want answers from you first
Is GK serious about peace with (us?)"

Yes - He's flexible
Not ready to share intel - wants answers from you first
Is GK serious about
Peace w us

[Bobb]

I tell you what if the next update does not contain Parson in a jail cell....

I wanted more Parson but the latest update is less of a jump than I'd feared.

[Xihirli]

Okay, so Parson is playing Don confirmed. We know how Charlie actually got his Dish.

[DigoDragon]

I wanted more Parson but the latest update is less of a jump than I'd feared.

Yeah, at least it shows Don being amicable to working with Parson a little.

The theory on Charlie does sound intriguing. I'm starting to buy it now.


Okay, so Parson is playing Don confirmed. We know how Charlie actually got his Dish.

I don't. I kind of like this version though :)

[Yuki Akuma]

Yeah, at least it shows Don being amicable to working with Parson a little.

The theory on Charlie does sound intriguing. I'm starting to buy it now.



I don't. I kind of like this version though :)

Maybe you should actually read Book 0.

[DigoDragon]

Maybe you should actually read Book 0.

I tried, but it just couldn't hold my interest.

[The Glyphstone]

Okay, so Parson is playing Don confirmed. We know how Charlie actually got his Dish.

Yeah, but Parson doesn't, does he?

[NEO|Phyte]

Yeah, but Parson doesn't, does he?

Post book 2, Wanda made sure decrypted Jack told him about the whole Deal of a Lifetime nonsense.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Hey, its page 49 and we haven't picked a title for the next thread. Any ideas?

[MReav]

Hey, its page 49 and we haven't picked a title for the next thread. Any ideas?

Third time's a charm?

VIIInie, VIIIdi, VIIIci.

[HalfTangible]

Hey, its page 49 and we haven't picked a title for the next thread. Any ideas?

Erfworld Thread VIII: A bat all the way

Erfworld Thread VIII: Charliiiiie!

Erfworld Thread VIII: Watching TV

Erfworld Thread VIII: Plots are like jumping beans

Erfworld Thread VIII: Shut up, HalfTangible

Erfworld Thread VIII: Just like the last one!

[The Glyphstone]

Erfworld Thread VIII: Parson Every Update, Line By Line

[Recaiden]

Erfworld Thread VIII: The Text Update

[HalfTangible]

Erfworld Thread VIII: Parson Every Update, Line By Line


Erfworld Thread VIII: The Text Update

How about "Parson Every Text Update, Line by Line"?

[Bobb]

third time's a charm?

Viiinie, viiidi, viiici.

RRAAWRR! Aggressive Endorsement!

[Anteros]

I was gonna make up some cheesy pun about titanfall, but I'll just vote for the vinnie one since it's always so popular.

[Jasdoif]

Erfworld Thread VIII: Titanic Purportions

[Zalabim]

I'll vote for VInnie, vIdi, vIci as well, whatever variation people want of it. As an alternate, and a prediction, the clash of the year is coming up: The Giants vs The Angels.

[Ubiq]

Erf- Random Location Shift -world VIII.

[-D-]

Erfworld VII: The Plot Awakens.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Very neat twist from Parson on Friday.

Parson and Jack must both know and account for the idea that anything Parson says will be treated with a huge amount of skepticism. That being said, it is very likely that Parson is not genuinely trying to sell Charlie as a Titan. This seems to be leading to selling Charlie as someone who is attempting to seize the power of the Titans. Don would be suspicious of Parson telling him straight up that Charlie is messing around with Titanic magic. Parson's evidence of Charlie being a Titan gives Don the same pile of evidence, and gets Don to think he's smarter than Parson by reaching his "own" conclusion.

If Don thinks Charlie is a heretic, he'll be a lot more likely to make a deal with Gobwin Knob to put the screws to Charlie.

Parson doesn't need to sell Charlie as a Titan, Charlie sells it himself by keeping his origins, motivations and everything else a secret. It is a brilliant play.

[Killer Angel]

New text update...



A more valid question could be "does Parson really believe in this theory?"
He knows / thinks that Erfworld is a resemblance of Stupidworld, so maybe he's reading more in that "Charlie's Angels (Charlie Fallen Angel?)


and it seems I was not so wrong, after all... :smallamused:

[SZbNAhL]

I'll vote for VInnie, vIdi, vIci

I will also endorse this title. It combines the ever-popular Vinnie pun with actually having the correct number of Is without having to add extras.

[DigoDragon]

I was gonna make up some cheesy pun about titanfall, but I'll just vote for the vinnie one since it's always so popular.

Aww, I would have voted for a Titanfall title.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

New Thread:

You guys finally have your Vinnie Vidi Vici thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?495031-Erfworld-Thread-VIII-VIIInie-VIIIdi-VIIIci&p=21014673#post21014673)

[-D-]

New text update...




and it seems I was not so wrong, after all... :smallamused:

I'd hold my horses. Parson knows some aspect of that story are wrong. Charlie didn't exactly steal the Arkentool and come down to Erf in so much as existed (or fell) killed previous owners and took it from them. I wonder why he skipped that little detail :smalltongue: Oh, right, most of their forces are Uncroaked. Plus there is the whole oath to Thinkamancers preventing him from telling the whole truth.

Parson may suspect that Charlie is an Stupidworlder that came to Erf, but then he'd refer to himself as Titan.

[eschmenk]

New text update...




and it seems I was not so wrong, after all... :smallamused:

Huh? It's obvious that Parson didn't believe the story that he gave Don King. Given that, I don't understand what you're trying to say. Are you trying to say that Parson is trying to make something be true?


Parson knows the Titans are gods in Don's mind. That's all that's relevant if Parson is just bluffing. But if he means what he's saying, then Razade's implied question becomes relevant: what does Parson think the Titans are? I don't know that there's another answer to that question besides the boring one, but it is a legitimate thing to ask.

Yes, but it's obvious that Parson didn't believe the story that he gave Don King. If nothing else, his grin gave that away.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Please see above post, new thread has been made. Please take discussion to that thread. Thanks!

[eschmenk]

Please see above post, new thread has been made. Please take discussion to that thread. Thanks!

How about letting us vote on a title first? I was about to propose Erfworld VIII: Titanic

[TheWombatOfDoom]

How about letting us vote on a title first? I was about to propose Erfworld VIII: Titanic

It's page 50. No more time to vote unfortunately. Can't go past 50 pages, after all.

Edit: For the record, Vinnie, Vidi, Vici got 6 votes if you include mine, where as none of the others had more than one apiece.

[Recaiden]

We had 16 more posts to argue about it though.

[Anteros]

Just go argue in the new thread. I'm pretty sure they can still change the title if something else is overwhelmingly supported.

[guttering flame]

Thoughts on New Page:

Can Jed be made String independent? I don't want him to become a dumb object if his three creators croaked.

Does this mean the Titans are still alive out there somewhere and if they die all the characters in Erfworld will lose their consciousness?

If Maggie and Jed can contact each other through these umbilical strings between them maybe Maggie could find the strings connecting her to the Titans!