Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed

[Razade]

Erfworld (www.erfworld.com) is an online comic about a table top gamer named Parson Gotti that is summoned from our world to the world of Erf, a world based on its own rules that function similarly to a table top game. This makes Parson a valuable player in a game that may very well threaten his life. Does he want to go back to his own world at all, or is this world the perfect place for a gamer such as himself? Is he really dreaming? Will he be there forever? Who knows! What we DO know is that in this world, the pieces are living things, and the stakes cannot be higher. Join Parson on this wild ride filled with real world (or to the Erfworlders - Stupid World) references and puns, gaming homages and glory, fate and chance.

Previous incarnations:
GitP: Erfworld Forum section (Locked) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=47)
Erfworld thread I (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178724)
Erfworld thread II: Finally thinking with portals, over a year later (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268156)
Erfworld thread III: As the Erf Turns (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=313967)
Erfworld thread IV: In Memory of King Saline (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?374757-Erfworld-thread-IV-In-memory-of-King-Saline)
Erfworld thread V: Baddie Will Not Post In Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?416285-Erfworld-thread-V-Baddie-Will-Not-Post-In-Thread)
Erfworld Thread VI: +10 vs Fat Guys From Ohio (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?461437-Erfworld-Thread-VI-10-vs-Fat-Guys-From-Ohio)

Currently we are on page 140 of Book 3.

Also, please SPOILER your comments for the first three posts about an update that has occurred.

[gooddragon1]

I have to admit that the latest arc has been a bit of an emotional roller coaster for me.

[Quild]

Don't you mean a collide-o-scope?

[Mad Humanist]

I have to admit that the latest arc has been a bit of an emotional roller coaster for me.

I'm cheesed off the Wednesday stories have stalled.

Also I didn't enjoy the latest sojurn in the Magic Kingdom. However it has got better with the collide-o-scope and the prospects of a direct interaction with Transylvito.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Ummmm...alright so everyone missed the part where I was planning on opening the thread once we hit 50? Because I had everything all ready to go.... :smallsigh:

[turbo164]

Ummmm...alright so everyone missed the part where I was planning on opening the thread once we hit 50? Because I had everything all ready to go.... :smallsigh:

You got Kingworld'd? :smalleek:

[DigoDragon]

Also I didn't enjoy the latest sojurn in the Magic Kingdom. However it has got better with the collide-o-scope and the prospects of a direct interaction with Transylvito.

I felt the story lingered a bit too long on the MK. It's moving along now in a decent direction.



You got Kingworld'd? :smalleek:

Bought out by CBS?

[DataNinja]

I felt the story lingered a bit too long on the MK. It's moving along now in a decent direction.

Isn't there a rule that Parson has to spend so many pages just standing around in front of portals? :smalltongue:

[Spojaz]

Isn't there a rule that Parson has to spend so many pages just standing around in front of portals? :smalltongue:

Portals are visually interesting, a clear setting identifier, a symbol of narrative choice, and, most importantly, easy to draw.

[gooddragon1]

I'm cheesed off the Wednesday stories have stalled.

Also I didn't enjoy the latest sojurn in the Magic Kingdom. However it has got better with the collide-o-scope and the prospects of a direct interaction with Transylvito.

I'm interested to see if and what the charlie interaction will be with Transylvito. Also how the gun will add to things. I regret the loss of the Wednesday stories as well.

[halfeye]

So this is the new thread?

Just so I know what I'm looking at.

[Mad Humanist]

So this is the new thread?

Just so I know what I'm looking at.

The thread stepped through a portal as it desperately needed to go to the toilet and is now being held prisoner by a bunch of blood-sucking janitors.

[Killer Angel]

Poor Vinny. No love for you...

[Leewei]

The next thread may well be VIIInnie, VIIIdi, VIIIci, depending on timing and current comic activity. Vinnie himself is off at Faq at the moment, isn't he?

[TheWombatOfDoom]

The next thread may well be VIIInnie, VIIIdi, VIIIci, depending on timing and current comic activity. Vinnie himself is off at Faq at the moment, isn't he?

or maybe VInnie, vIdi, vIci

[gooddragon1]

Poor Vinny. No love for you...

The trope was too stretched (both literally and metaphorically). The consensus of no consensus was just too perfect to pass up, and it doesn't require significant involvement of a character that hasn't appeared in a while whereas this was right in front of us. I realize the timing is crucial, but as for me, the extra "I" sealed the name of this thread. Ironic (?) that the thread name came down to the wire just like in the comic :)?

EDIT: Wombat, page 50 came and it was getting pretty intense. In situations like that, people may not remember your request to post the OP.

[guttering flame]

I'm interested to see if and what the charlie interaction will be with Transylvito. Also how the gun will add to things. I regret the loss of the Wednesday stories as well.

What are these Wednesday stories you speak of?

[gooddragon1]

What are these Wednesday stories you speak of?

They used to post a text page with a picture or handful of pictures in it on Wednesdays and full comic pages on Monday and Friday. They stopped a bit ago. Maybe weeks or months, not sure.

[Anteros]

The next thread may well be VIIInnie, VIIIdi, VIIIci, depending on timing and current comic activity. Vinnie himself is off at Faq at the moment, isn't he?

Nah. We'll just name it after some random meaningless quote from the comic. Like always.

[MReav]

Maybe Vinny, Vidi, Vici will be a quote in-universe.

[hajo]

What are these Wednesday stories you speak of?
The Backer/Kickstarter-Stories (http://archives.erfworld.com/Kickstarter%20Stories), the last one about Dylan and Thomas (http://archives.erfworld.com/Kickstarter%20Stories/53), posted 2015-04-08 (http://forums.erfworld.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7321&hilit=Dylan&sid=72b8c9ec85c73c28961d481b5ea9475d).
As it turned out, writing Rhyme-o-mancy is hard, so its priority was adjusted all the way down...

[-D-]

As it turned out, writing Rhyme-o-mancy is hard, so its priority was adjusted all the way down...
Its right there with the doll that gets the hose again :p

Yeah, writing Rhymomancy doesn't rake enough Shmuckers. Also March Hamstard update is late.

[Reverent-One]

Also March Hamstard update is late.

Check the Erfworld facebook page. There was a new Hamstard comic posted on the first of the month.

[-D-]

Check the Erfworld facebook page. There was a new Hamstard comic posted on the first of the month.
I meant this:

For Everybody - Hamstard.com will be reborn, with new Hamstard comics by Parson Gotti posted weekly, and we will partially redesign the website (declutter, add resources for new users, and optimize for mobile)

[DataNinja]

I meant this:

And here's Rob explicitly saying what the plan is. (http://www.erfworld.com/blog/view/48875/milestone-3-hit-heres-the-plan)

[Razade]

Well. Can't say that actually tells us a whole lot other than Stanley knows what's going on sort of. Not much else to this update really. Sorta hoping we'd see some of the Vampire's side of things.

[-D-]

And here's Rob explicitly saying what the plan is. (http://www.erfworld.com/blog/view/48875/milestone-3-hit-heres-the-plan)
Ugh, how hard can it be to setup Hamstard site...

Anyway a non update, update. Not much to tell. Wanda is undergoing a trial. Would be funny to see her executed.

[Killer Angel]

The trope was too stretched (both literally and metaphorically). The consensus of no consensus was just too perfect to pass up, and it doesn't require significant involvement of a character that hasn't appeared in a while whereas this was right in front of us. I realize the timing is crucial, but as for me, the extra "I" sealed the name of this thread. Ironic (?) that the thread name came down to the wire just like in the comic :)?

Well, "No consensus..." remains a nice title, so it works pretty well.
And anyway, given the pace we're keeping, the thread n. VIII is close to come. :smalltongue:

[gooddragon1]

Well, "No consensus..." remains a nice title, so it works pretty well.
And anyway, given the pace we're keeping, the thread n. VIII is close to come. :smalltongue:

Pends on what's available.

As for the comic, I like to see Charlie crying, but I have a speculation that he may say it's because he lost "beloved archons" while the truth is something else.

Pity about all those units left un decrypted. Still, I look forward to seeing Jojo run out on a rail.

[Nevereatcars]

I am suddenly and entirely convinced that Charlie is Parson from the future.

[Quild]

Well. Can't say that actually tells us a whole lot other than Stanley knows what's going on sort of. Not much else to this update really. Sorta hoping we'd see some of the Vampire's side of things.

Contrarily, I think this page tells a lot.

- Bonnie reached Spacerock. Arkenpliers are safe, Ace now has a gun he can work with (we already know that though).
- Stanley's position on all this.
- Wanda, Shawn, Artemis, 3 archons and 3 stabbers are captured my MK forces. Not incapacited anymore.
- 8 guns and 2 heavy-things are seized by MK forces.
- Some 5 or 7 archons are croaked, not decrypted, presumably going to depop before anyone can decrypt them.
- At least 12 free casters, including Marie, managed to get croaked, which causes some mourning. Aerith is still alive!
- Great Minds are coming. Will they do some action?!
- Jack isn't incapacited anymore. Presumably Maggie has been healed too.
- Charlie doesn't seem to have another ace in the hole.

If it's not the end of the book, it looks close enough.

[Razade]

Contrarily, I think this page tells a lot.

Well we'll see about that!


Bonnie reached Spacerock. Arkenpliers are safe, Ace now has a gun he can work with (we already know that though).

We knew this. We know Archons can go through Portals. We know she went though the Spacerock Portal. There's no reason for us to have thought she wouldn't have made it to the other side safely.


Stanley's position on all this.

Said this. This is the only thing we couldn't have infered or already knew from other chapters which was my point really.


Wanda, Shawn, Artemis, 3 archons and 3 stabbers are captured my MK forces. Not incapacited anymore. 8 guns and 2 heavy-things are seized by MK forces.

Not particularly important, the Thinkamancers already knew about this existence and we also knew from previous chapters that the Archon's that were killed dropped their weapons. We know no other Gobwin Knob forces got away so we knew the weapons would remain this.


Some 5 or 7 archons are croaked, not decrypted, presumably going to depop before anyone can decrypt them.

We knew this already. And we know they're not going to be Decrypted because we know the Pliers got to Spacerock


At least 12 free casters, including Marie, managed to get croaked, which causes some mourning. Aerith is still alive!

We could easily have infered this, the number doesn't seem important. We know Free Casters were killed during this little battle


Great Minds are coming. Will they do some action?!

Already knew this from previous chapters. They already acted, of course they're going to come
-

Jack isn't incapacited anymore. Presumably Maggie has been healed too.

Not that important, it was bound to happen. We don't know how many turns have passed since they were captured either so even if he wasn't it wouldn't be a surprise. This isn't really new information all the same.


Charlie doesn't seem to have another ace in the hole.

Charlie has another ace in the whole. He always has another ace in the hole. Contingencies on top of Continuances.


If it's not the end of the book, it looks close enough.

According to the Erfworld thread we're actually a ways off from the end of the book.

[-D-]

We knew this.
This seems to be theme of this update.

The only thing new this update tell us is that Tool isn't pissed and that Charlie lost 30mil. Rest could have been inferred.


Charlie has another ace in the whole. He always has another ace in the hole. Contingencies on top of Continuances.
Probably, but it seems to be a far away hole :P


According to the Erfworld thread we're actually a ways off from the end of the book.
Really? I thought this was Aftermancy. How far are we from THE END?

[DigoDragon]

Already knew this from previous chapters. They already acted, of course they're going to come

But what Now I wonder? MK has prisoners, and camps are forming for and against sides. Can the Great Minds get everyone to agree, or does MK fracture into factions?

I do like that Stanley is being chill about the situation. A calm mind will hopefully help him think of some ideas to help get his units back from MK (I want Parson to get himself out of his sitch).

[Killer Angel]

- Jack isn't incapacited anymore. Presumably Maggie has been healed too.


I'd say yes, otherwise she wouldn't be counted amongst the prisoners.

[eschmenk]

Charlie doesn't look like Charlie Brown anymore, but he's bloodied. I guess that's just signomancy, too?

Bonnie survived going through the portal at high speed and without being incapacitated. That was nice for her and GK will have a chance to learn whatever intelligence she knows. Hopefully Stanley won't do something to kill her off before Parson gets a chance to learn what she knows. That would be a major worry for Charlie, though, so he'll be gunning for her.

I thought this page was a nice summary of the current state of things.

[Quild]

We knew this. We know Archons can go through Portals. We know she went though the Spacerock Portal. There's no reason for us to have thought she wouldn't have made it to the other side safely.
Actually... I understood that they can't. Two last lines. (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/123)
It seems to confirm however that any unit can go OUT of MK through a portal.



Not particularly important, the Thinkamancers already knew about this existence and we also knew from previous chapters that the Archon's that were killed dropped their weapons. We know no other Gobwin Knob forces got away so we knew the weapons would remain this.
We didn't knew numbers at all. 11 archons went through Charlie's portal. One is in Spacerock, two are captured (Lilith does not count), at least six are croaked... There could be up to two archons left. Decrypted or not.


We knew this already. And we know they're not going to be Decrypted because we know the Pliers got to Spacerock
Like there's a zero chance that Arkentools can't go through a portal why carried by someunit else than the attuned unit. High suspicion is not knowing.


We could easily have infered this, the number doesn't seem important. We know Free Casters were killed during this little battle
Important or not, we do learn something. And I do find it interesting.
I can imagine an option were Shawn could be released of his Loyalty to Wanda and examinated by Thinkamancers in order to determine if he's still himself enough. GK's unit could be liberated in exchange of the decryption of the croaked free casters.
There's enough Free casters croaked and mourning casters to make that an option.


Already knew this from previous chapters. They already acted, of course they're going to come.
Very arguable.


Not that important, it was bound to happen. We don't know how many turns have passed since they were captured either so even if he wasn't it wouldn't be a surprise. This isn't really new information all the same.
Right. No one was worried that some incapacited units couldn't be healed in time. Especially when Parson could only took some units with him, not all.


Charlie has another ace in the whole. He always has another ace in the hole. Contingencies on top of Continuances.
It seems the turn is over for him, and it was a bad one.



According to the Erfworld thread we're actually a ways off from the end of the book.
Oh.

[DigoDragon]

Oh.

I wonder what will top the MK fight as the final battle in this book. Gotta be something good.
Well, I'm hope so anyway.

[Quild]

I wonder what will top the MK fight as the final battle in this book. Gotta be something good.
Well, I'm hope so anyway.

Me too.
Plus, these panels are quite unusual in Erfworld and reminded me of the end of book 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html) and book 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html) of OOTS.

[Leewei]

The wall hanging in panel 1 -- is that Misty?

[-D-]

The wall hanging in panel 1 -- is that Misty?

You are correct.

[hajo]

A lot of items have changed owner, or are lying around.

So, I'm wondering who can use what:
* Rifles, pistols - self-explaining, so perhaps everyone.
* Ammo - how much is left ?
* Tripods - there were hints that only special trained archons can use them
* Arkenplier - maybe Sizemore or Ace will attune ?
* Eyebooks - do they have passwords ?
* Parson's notebook - what does TV see in it ?
* Parson's calculator - usable / useful for whom ?
* Ivan Poe's wrench, helmet, googles - ...

[Aquillion]

I do like that Stanley is being chill about the situation. A calm mind will hopefully help him think of some ideas to help get his units back from MK (I want Parson to get himself out of his sitch).Part of the reason is because a lot of the stuff GK has lost is abstract (reputation in the MK, say), which he doesn't know or care about; the only concrete losses are a few troops in the MK and a few captured casters and warlords, which he can hope to recover. Whereas the gain of a huge amount of money is concrete and easy for him to understand. He was flipping his lid earlier about money, and we've seen him flip his lid about losing dwagons; those are things he understands. Magic-stuff and reputation in the MK he doesn't care as much about.

Now, yes, one of those lost casters is Wanda, and he presumably realizes, intellectually, that getting Wanda and the Arkenpliers back together is important to his side, but emotionally it's something he's ambivalent about. In fact, I suspect he is not entirely sad to have an excuse to appoint a new Chief Caster -- especially not Sizemore, who is someone who is completely nonthreatening to him.

(And he's not entirely wrong to be ambivalent about the Arkenpliers; being so dependent on a single point of failure is pretty bad, putting aside the fact that Wanda's loyalties might be dubious given her Fatalism. He made the right choice in recruiting a bunch of non-Decrypted troops earlier, just in case.)

[eschmenk]

I do like that Stanley is being chill about the situation. A calm mind will hopefully help him think of some ideas to help get his units back from MK (I want Parson to get himself out of his sitch).

If "trying to be mellow" means "getting stoned," it might not help Stanley come up with ideas. Then again, just having Stanley avoid making bad decisions might be a big help.

I noticed that Stanley didn't specifically say that Parson, Jack and Maggie were in Transylvito when they were captured. He should have been able to sense that much, even if he can't sense where they were moved after they were captured. (I can't remember how that works.) Maybe he just didn't think that information was important enough to mention? Ideally, it would be because he remembers that his communications aren't secure, but that may be giving him too much credit. I don't know whether to give Stanley credit for an intelligent choice or not. :smallconfused: In any case, Charlie couldn't learn about Parson's location from what Stanley said.

[keybounce]

Lets not forget: early in this book, Parson ordered Stanley to be cool.

(Eyebook) LordHamster: Just stay cool.

(Eyebook) LordHamster: That's an order, bossman.

(Eyebook) OverLord1: Im always cool!!!

http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/29

(spotted by Anomynous 167)

[DigoDragon]

Now, yes, one of those lost casters is Wanda, and he presumably realizes, intellectually, that getting Wanda and the Arkenpliers back together is important to his side, but emotionally it's something he's ambivalent about. In fact, I suspect he is not entirely sad to have an excuse to appoint a new Chief Caster -- especially not Sizemore, who is someone who is completely nonthreatening to him.

Hmm, Stanley did ask Sizemore to figure out what is going on, so perhaps Stanley doesn't know where everyone is. Or at the very least where they are at.



If "trying to be mellow" means "getting stoned," it might not help Stanley come up with ideas. Then again, just having Stanley avoid making bad decisions might be a big help.

Either way is a Win for GK strategy!

[Ubiq]

Charlie has another ace in the whole. He always has another ace in the hole. Contingencies on top of Continuances.

This last turn was a pretty catastrophic one for him.

He lost a bunch of Archons with two of them being highly connected, critical ones and the rest probably being some of his better fighters.
He revealed a bunch of his trump cards: his ability to invade the Magic Kingdom with his Archons, his weapons, and his mole within the Kingdom.
His primary targets not only survived and are beyond his reach but the loss actually made his primary enemy richer and a lot more knowledgeable about him.

[hajo]

Stanley did ask Sizemore to figure out what is going on
So, he will talk to the Archon - how much does she know about him from Charlie's files ?

After that, I can see a surprise if Sizemore peeks thru the portal,
and I have no idea what will happen when trying to contact the eyebooks.

[The Glyphstone]

Charlie doesn't look like Charlie Brown anymore, but he's bloodied. I guess that's just signomancy, too?
.

I don't think he is bloodied, unless you are being metaphorical. The red emergency lights just make what I'm pretty sure are tears look bloody. He's crying (presumably because he lost 30 million shmuckers), and the Archon is trying to dab the tears away with the cloth in her hand.

[Yuki Akuma]

I don't think he is bloodied, unless you are being metaphorical. The red emergency lights just make what I'm pretty sure are tears look bloody. He's crying (presumably because he lost 30 million shmuckers), and the Archon is trying to dab the tears away with the cloth in her hand.

I don't think he's crying because he just lost thirty million. I'm fairly sure he's crying because he is terrified of dying and it's becoming pretty obvious that he really can't escape his Fate this time.

[eschmenk]

I don't think he is bloodied, unless you are being metaphorical.

Yeah, I think I was reading too much into the hole in the side of his face. Now I think that's where a wire normally plugs in, though. I didn't see the tears on his face, either.

I think he cares much more about missing Parson and the intelligence loses than the 30 million, though. Also, don't forget that he can't dose himself with painkillers while absorbing information anymore so he's probably in a lot of pain, too.


Lets not forget: early in this book, Parson ordered Stanley to be cool.

Yes, that meant, "Don't attack Jillian." How is that relevant now?


Hmm, Stanley did ask Sizemore to figure out what is going on, so perhaps Stanley doesn't know where everyone is. Or at the very least where they are at.

Wanda became ruler momentarily when her first side what destroyed. As ruler, she knew the locations of everyone on her side and their status. I can't remember the details of what happens when someone is captured, though.

[DataNinja]

Yes, that meant, "Don't attack Jillian." How is that relevant now?

He didn't let the order lapse. So, obviously, the Tool has to be cool, because he's still under orders to be. :smalltongue:

[Aquillion]

I don't think he's crying because he just lost thirty million. I'm fairly sure he's crying because he is terrified of dying and it's becoming pretty obvious that he really can't escape his Fate this time.The ironic thing is that he wasn't even on GK's radar until he inserted himself into things to try and kill Parson. If he hadn't been so obsessed with stopping the prophecy of his death, it wouldn't be coming true.

You'd think that he of all people would realize that danger.

(Although I guess they might have attacked him for the Arkendish? But they didn't show any hint of that. Which always struck me as a bit odd, really, given their goals.)

[eschmenk]

The ironic thing is that he wasn't even on GK's radar until he inserted himself into things to try and kill Parson. If he hadn't been so obsessed with stopping the prophecy of his death, it wouldn't be coming true.

"...it wouldn't be coming true, yet." Charlie apparently decided that he needed to stop GK before it became too powerful because eventually Parson would come for him. Fate said so, as far as we can tell.

We can see that things worked out badly for Charlie as a result of what Charlie did. We can't see how badly things would have worked out if Charlie had tried a different plan. We almost certainly know what would have happened if Charlie did nothing, though; Parson would eventually kill him. Charlie, being a Carnymancer, would certainly do something to try to cheat fate. If Charlie knows that doing nothing means that he's going to be croaked, then he has little to loose by trying something.

[Landis963]

he has little to loose by trying something.

His game's already pretty tight. (Emphasis mine) :smalltongue:

[Mad Humanist]

He didn't let the order lapse. So, obviously, the Tool has to be cool, because he's still under orders to be. :smalltongue:

You would think Parson ceasing to be chief warlord would make it lapse.

[DataNinja]

You would think Parson ceasing to be chief warlord would make it lapse.

Probably. But I think it's funnier this way. Your mileage on that may vary.

[The Glyphstone]

I like to imagine it's actual Character development from Stanley. Between Parson and Jed, he's gradually learning that he doesn't need to hyper-micro-manage everything.

[Aquillion]

"...it wouldn't be coming true, yet." Charlie apparently decided that he needed to stop GK before it became too powerful because eventually Parson would come for him. Fate said so, as far as we can tell.

We can see that things worked out badly for Charlie as a result of what Charlie did. We can't see how badly things would have worked out if Charlie had tried a different plan. We almost certainly know what would have happened if Charlie did nothing, though; Parson would eventually kill him. Charlie, being a Carnymancer, would certainly do something to try to cheat fate. If Charlie knows that doing nothing means that he's going to be croaked, then he has little to loose by trying something.
Sure, but he could have done it better by trying harder to be on Parson's side. Heck, that's a much better strategy right there:

Do everything you can to side with GK. Don't pull anything on Parson, ever. Stay on his good side. Be upfront and tell him straight-up that Fate is going to try and make him kill you. When it does start to happen, point it out to him.

He'll still have to cheat Fate at some point, sure, but that way, when he does, Parson will be on his side. He tried much later on, via Jojo, to convince Parson that Fate was their enemy, but only after trying to kill Parson and people he cared about.

I would think that Charlie and Parson vs. Fate would have a much higher success rate than Charlie vs. Parson and Fate. I mean, hell, here's a strategy I would have gone with:

Side with Parson during the battle for Gobwin Knob, but do it in a way that leaves Parson room to be heroic while you provide support. Then, once the battle is over, give him the scroll and tell him "congratulations, you won! I've rigged up a way for you to go home so you don't need to sit around mopping up or slaving under Stanley forever now that your job is done." At that point in the story -- with no other enemies to deal with and with his immediate goal achieved -- Parson would likely have accepted; Fate wouldn't have had much room to prevent him.


I like to imagine it's actual Character development from Stanley. Between Parson and Jed, he's gradually learning that he doesn't need to hyper-micro-manage everything.Like I said above, I think it's partially that he's secretly glad to have an excuse to appoint someone other than Wanda as chief caster, even if only temporarily. It's been pretty clear that he feels intimidated by her now.

[Douglas]

Side with Parson during the battle for Gobwin Knob, but do it in a way that leaves Parson room to be heroic while you provide support. Then, once the battle is over, give him the scroll and tell him "congratulations, you won! I've rigged up a way for you to go home so you don't need to sit around mopping up or slaving under Stanley forever now that your job is done." At that point in the story -- with no other enemies to deal with and with his immediate goal achieved -- Parson would likely have accepted; Fate wouldn't have had much room to prevent him.
Sure, that could have worked, but it's a level of plotting that brings in the question of how much influence Fate has. Remember Wanda's discussion in book 0 about how she could negate Fate's plans for her by suiciding? How far does the principle of the answer - "you could, but you won't" - go?

Charlie could have executed such a plot, but that's not Charlie's style. Even if he were to come up with such an idea, would Fate be able to affect his decision making to prevent him from following through?

[eschmenk]

Yes, did Fate make Charlie too confident or greedy or was Charlie just like that without Fate's influence? Charlie thought he could get the arkenpliers and Parson either dead or captured.

There is an extra page in the Book 1 PDF immediately before Parson was sent back out of the MK. It was a meeting with Maggie and the Great Minds. They were discussing whether or not to intervene and interrogate Parson. Maggie convinced them not to interfere by pinkyswearing that they needed to let Parson do his job. She finished with this: "But Parson must and will discover his own reasons to bring Charlie down." That made it seem pretty inevitable. The same page also made it clear that Janis was protecting Parson (who was unconscious), so Jojo probably couldn't have slipped the scroll to him. Even if Parson got the scroll, I doubt that Parson would have used the scroll without talking to Maggie first, which probably would have resulted in various casters trying to convince Parson to stay.


His game's already pretty tight. (Emphasis mine) :smalltongue:

I'm just glad I didn't type, "he has little to loose by tying something." :smallamused:

[Doran]

I guess we are a few pages from the end of Bk3, I wonder if there will be any last minute relevation before Bk4?
Teasing another Arkentool or the return of the Shoes would be nice.

[Razade]

I guess we are a few pages from the end of Bk3, I wonder if there will be any last minute relevation before Bk4?
Teasing another Arkentool or the return of the Shoes would be nice.

According to the Erfworld site we're not close to the end of the chapter.

[-D-]

According to the Erfworld site we're not close to the end of the chapter.
Where does it track progress ?

[Razade]

Where does it track progress ?

Just the comment section/forum, Rob doesn't have a tracker or anything like that. We're just as likely to be one page away from the end as we are another one hundred pages. Book One was 163 pages. Book Two was technically 225 pages. Book Three is now on 141 and was, if I recall, meant to be as long or longer than Book Two. The last estimate I've seen on the Erfworld site (and I can't find the source now so forgive me) is there's to be another 80ish pages.

[DataNinja]

Just the comment section/forum, Rob doesn't have a tracker or anything like that. We're just as likely to be one page away from the end as we are another one hundred pages. Book One was 163 pages. Book Two was technically 225 pages. Book Three is now on 141 and was, if I recall, meant to be as long or longer than Book Two. The last estimate I've seen on the Erfworld site (and I can't find the source now so forgive me) is there's to be another 80ish pages.


Rob said:

Being that I want to pay the new team collectively about 1/3 more than I was paying David, and we have maybe 90 more pages in Book 3 than I had planned on...

Assuming that he was planning on having a book the size of Book 1, 163+90 = 253 pages. We're at 141. That gives 112 as a rough estimate.

If you instead take the time that it was said (in between 95 and 96) and add the 90 pages from there, you'd get 185 pages, which would leave 44.

Averaging the two numbers gives 78 more pages, which, I presume, is how that particular number of ~80 was obtained.

Source for the quote is here (http://www.erfworld.com/blog/view/47337/closing-in-on-an-art-team-preliminary-kickstarter-details).

[Officer Joy]

New Comic

Also we schould ask to not get this thread closed once it hits 50. so it's left unsealed :smallwink:

[Landis963]

New Comic

Also we schould ask to not get this thread closed once it hits 50. so it's left unsealed :smallwink:

It'd be confusing for people. Better to change the title once it gets to that point, so that it reads "No Consensus, Sealed." or something similar.

[Kantaki]

Bonnie’s reaction to the news that her new ruler is in the field right now is great.:smallbiggrin:
It seems Stanley and his new friends will get their chance to play with some of Charlie’s toys.

The bullets are Dirtamancy? I'm not sure Sizemore will like helping with that.
Oh well, someone will find a way.

[Lentrax]

New Comic

Also we schould ask to not get this thread closed once it hits 50. so it's left unsealed :smallwink:

No consensus. Deliberation ongoing.

[Razade]

It'd be confusing for people. Better to change the title once it gets to that point, so that it reads "No Consensus, Sealed." or something similar.

If I'm able to do it, I'll do it.

[Douglas]

If I'm able to do it, I'll do it.
The OP can edit a thread title for either 28 or 30 days after initial posting, I'm not sure which. After that only moderators can do it. I might do it if I remember (or get reminded), but no promises.

[hajo]

I like Stanley's smiling blue dwagon :smallamused:

Also, Bonnie is surprised to hear that Stanley is in the field.
Does that mean CC hasn't noticed when he left ?

[eschmenk]

I can't figure out the significance of the two stitched birds. They don't look like pigeons, so I don't think Stanley has been cracking nuts. Ideas?


Does that mean CC hasn't noticed when he left ?

There was no indication that Charlie was aware of it and I was assuming that he didn't know.

Stanley's decision was so random that it would have been very hard to predict. I doubt that many sides even know that the Juggle elves exist since Stanley didn't know about them. Parson didn't know Stanley left until after he was gone. All of Charlie's attention has been on Parson, not Stanley. We didn't see Stanley say anything over his eyebook that would give away where he is. IIRC, Parson made Stanley understand that the eyebooks weren't secure and that he should watch what he says at some point.

[hajo]

the two stitched birds. They don't look like pigeons
Some of the Juggles might have dollamancy, so probably the birds are cloth-golems.

[eschmenk]

OK. It's easy to imaging Juggalos giving other people the double-bird, so maybe they are dollamancy gifts to Stanley?

[Kareasint]

I like Stanley's smiling blue dwagon :smallamused:

Also, Bonnie is surprised to hear that Stanley is in the field.
Does that mean CC hasn't noticed when he left ?

It's Charlie. He has a tendency to find out stuff fast. The big question is whether he has the resources in the area to go after Stanley OR if there is a portal nearby.

[eschmenk]

It's Charlie. He has a tendency to find out stuff fast. The big question is whether he has the resources in the area to go after Stanley OR if there is a portal nearby.

Charlie is on a slow connection to the arkendish. His ability to get intelligence is much less than normal now. Parson has probably trained GK people about security. No one on other sides would know where Stanley is. Charlie would have no reason to think he wasn't in his capital.

Charlie wouldn't go through the portals now anyway. Too many lookamancers are on alert for archons to be able to get through without being seen. He doesn't even allow most archons to get close to the portal room.

[ryuplaneswalker]

I like Stanley's smiling blue dwagon :smallamused:

Also, Bonnie is surprised to hear that Stanley is in the field.
Does that mean CC hasn't noticed when he left ?

Unless the MK attack was a distraction to keep Parson off balance while Charlie was gathering up the Archons to go after Stanley, if it were the case he would keep the MK Archons in the dark about it all in case of capture/decyrption.

[eschmenk]

Bonnie seems to expect that Charlie would go after Stanley. That's why she's so concerned.

Charlie made it sound as if it was automatic that he would go after Stanley and seize Spacerock (near the bottom of the page (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/107)). Any of the Archons who knew Charlie would probably expect that he would, especially if they knew that GK got a gun and such great intelligence about CC, thanks to Bonnie getting through the portal.

This would likely mean that Charlie would try to go after Stanley in Spacerock, since that's where Charlie would probably think he is.

[The Glyphstone]

The blissed-out dwagon really makes this page. Though I am looking forward to seeing the Juggle Elves in action.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Bonnie seems to expect that Charlie would go after Stanley. That's why she's so concerned.

Charlie made it sound as if it was automatic that he would go after Stanley and seize Spacerock (near the bottom of the page (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/107)). Any of the Archons who knew Charlie would probably expect that he would, especially if they knew that GK got a gun and such great intelligence about CC, thanks to Bonnie getting through the portal.

This would likely mean that Charlie would try to go after Stanley in Spacerock, since that's where Charlie would probably think he is.

But we do know that Charlie keeps Veiled Archons "out in the world" so it is entirely plausable he knows that Stanley is not in Spacerock.

Also if you are planning an assault on your opponent's capital with the intent to Murder the crap out of the big boss man I would be keeping an eye on that capital so that I know the bossman is there.

[DigoDragon]

"...it wouldn't be coming true, yet." Charlie apparently decided that he needed to stop GK before it became too powerful because eventually Parson would come for him. Fate said so, as far as we can tell.

From the perspective of Erfworld being a game like Civ, this is a truth to always expect.



Bonnie seems to expect that Charlie would go after Stanley. That's why she's so concerned.

This would likely mean that Charlie would try to go after Stanley in Spacerock, since that's where Charlie would probably think he is.

But we do know that Charlie keeps Veiled Archons "out in the world" so it is entirely plausable he knows that Stanley is not in Spacerock.

Two turns can be a long time. I worry that Charlie will figure out where Stanley is before he gets back to base.
If he does, then GK as a side could be in deep trouble. :smalleek:

Although... the prediction of Parson beating Charlie says nothing about which side Parson leads, does it?



The blissed-out dwagon really makes this page. Though I am looking forward to seeing the Juggle Elves in action.

I like Stanley's comment. Just really shows the gravity of his situation with humor.

[eschmenk]

But we do know that Charlie keeps Veiled Archons "out in the world" so it is entirely plausable he knows that Stanley is not in Spacerock.

Also if you are planning an assault on your opponent's capital with the intent to Murder the crap out of the big boss man I would be keeping an eye on that capital so that I know the bossman is there.

I agree with the "entirely plausible." We can't be sure about what Charlie knows. Charlie could even have additional ways of spying that we don't even know about yet. OTOH, Charlie didn't expect the current situation to develop before the start of the current turn. Under the treaty it would have been a complete disaster to unsuccessfully attack Spacerock, so Charlie wouldn't risk that unless he had a really good reason to launch an all-out attack and he didn't have a reason before the start of the turn. Parson was in the MK, so that's the location that Charlie would have been paying the most attention to. Of course he would be trying to increase his surveillance of Spacerock now.

[gooddragon1]

Crazy theory: lv 9 archon is not actually decrypted. She's using a veil and wants to meet with Stanley to murder him.

*adjusts tinfoil hat*

[Razade]

Crazy theory: lv 9 archon is not actually decrypted. She's using a veil and wants to meet with Stanley to murder him.

*adjusts tinfoil hat*

"Bonnie began her second life with the lingering memory of how it felt to have a sword cleave right through your head. The stabber's blade had chopped down through the top of her skull and through the roof of her mouth. She'd distinctly tasted mineral oil on the steel, just before she croaked." Page 136, Book 3.

She was decrypted.

[-D-]

She was decrypted.
But what if, she didn't know she wad decrypted? And was secretly Turing machine all along.

[ryuplaneswalker]

I agree with the "entirely plausible." We can't be sure about what Charlie knows. Charlie could even have additional ways of spying that we don't even know about yet. OTOH, Charlie didn't expect the current situation to develop before the start of the current turn. Under the treaty it would have been a complete disaster to unsuccessfully attack Spacerock, so Charlie wouldn't risk that unless he had a really good reason to launch an all-out attack and he didn't have a reason before the start of the turn. Parson was in the MK, so that's the location that Charlie would have been paying the most attention to. Of course he would be trying to increase his surveillance of Spacerock now.

Well remember Parson started the turn in Spacerock.

However if Charlie is half as smart as we think he is, he is has his casters (jojo, TF2 Engi) doing surveillance in the MK, while veiled Archons keep an eye on Spacerock and GK, you would not want to miss the chance to Ambush Parson if he ends his turn in that Corridor from GK to Spacerock that GK has set up.

[Douglas]

However if Charlie is half as smart as we think he is, he is has his casters (jojo, TF2 Engi) doing surveillance in the MK, while veiled Archons keep an eye on Spacerock and GK, you would not want to miss the chance to Ambush Parson if he ends his turn in that Corridor from GK to Spacerock that GK has set up.
I expect it would take something on the order of the forced "your turn is over now" linked-Turnamancy spell to get that to happen. Parson knows Charlie is hostile, knows he's got Archons all over the place, and respects him as an intelligent opponent. In light of that, Parson is too smart to give Charlie an obvious chance that big if he has any choice about it.

[ryuplaneswalker]

It is probably that last part that Charles would be waiting for.

[eschmenk]

Well remember Parson started the turn in Spacerock.

No, he didn't. (http://archives.erfworld.com/book%203/87) And Stanley was already gone by then.


However if Charlie is half as smart as we think he is, he is has his casters (jojo, TF2 Engi) doing surveillance in the MK, while veiled Archons keep an eye on Spacerock and GK, you would not want to miss the chance to Ambush Parson if he ends his turn in that Corridor from GK to Spacerock that GK has set up.

Charlie can't have any veiled Archons within 6 hexes of any GK city without paying huge fines automagically. We wasn't paying those fines, so they must not be any Archons near Spacerock. I already said that Charlie would have surveillance of Parson in the MK, but that would make it less likely that Charlie would notice Stanley when he flew away from Spacerock, not more likely.

Not that it matters, but Parson would have had no reason to enter the tunnel. The portal for GK (the city) doesn't work anymore because it's not a capital. GK (the side) has only one portal; it takes people to and from Spacerock.

[hajo]

But we do know that Charlie keeps Veiled Archons "out in the world" so it is entirely plausable he knows that Stanley is not in Spacerock.

Also if you are planning an assault on your opponent's capital with the intent to Murder the crap out of the big boss man I would be keeping an eye on that capital so that I know the bossman is there.
Sure, but with the treaty they cannot go nearer than 6 hexes to a town.
That would be a ring of 42 hexes to watch around each city.
Covering each of those hexes around Spacerock with say 2 Archons each
would require 84 Archons.
That seems a lot, given around 600 Archons to cover all of Erf.

Also, more scouts means more chances of them being spotted,
and CC might not have wanted that, for the duration of the treaty.

[keybounce]

No consensus. Deliberation ongoing.

So there is no consensus as to what should happen to this thread name when the thread is locked.

But there is a consensus that the current name reflects the lack of consensus in the Great Minds (aka the GM) as well as the lack of consensus as to whether the thread should be named after Vinnie or not.

[Recaiden]

So there is no consensus as to what should happen to this thread name when the thread is locked.

But there is a consensus that the current name reflects the lack of consensus in the Great Minds (aka the GM) as well as the lack of consensus as to whether the thread should be named after Vinnie or not.

It's a very good name. Does a lot.

[Anteros]

It's a very good name. Does a lot.

Yes, it's right up there with "We can't agree" or "I dunno". Truly the foremost bastion of wit and humor.


I'm just snippy my choice didn't win the vote. Ignore me.

[hajo]

Update (http://www.erfworld.com/blog/view/49092/book-3-page-143)
And it looks like Stanley got an even better deal then we thought :smallbiggrin:

I can hardly wait to see these guys in action...
and the faces of their opponents :smallamused:

[SZbNAhL]

Except the guns aren't shockamancy...

[Recaiden]

Magnets.

My understanding was that most Archons didn't carry guns, only the ones in Charlescomm HQ? These would have been ones that were already in the field.

[dauvis]

Magnets.

My understanding was that most Archons didn't carry guns, only the ones in Charlescomm HQ? These would have been ones that were already in the field.

Now that their existence is no longer a secret, that is most likely going to change.

[Stegyre]

Stanley seems to be doing a fine job of promoting Juggleo morale.

Except the guns aren't shockamancy...
I'm not sure that's an issue yet. The guns aren't widely distributed: they're all kept at Charlescom (until the MK invasion). From all I can remember seeing, none of the field units would have them.

The issue then (it seems to me) would be whether archons could reach Stanley's present position, or his path back to Jetstone, from Charlescom in two or three turns.

[DigoDragon]

The issue then (it seems to me) would be whether archons could reach Stanley's present position, or his path back to Jetstone, from Charlescom in two or three turns.

I worry that with this newfound knowledge, Stanley won't be returning to the safety of his cities... :smalleek:

[DataNinja]

Treebeer! I love it! I almost burst out laughing as soon as I saw the name.

[Stegyre]

Treebeer! I love it! I almost burst out laughing as soon as I saw the name.
I admit, I'm at a loss. The closest I could find was this (http://bluehillsbrewery.com/products.php)? :smallconfused:



Stegyre: not getting the joke since 1966.

[Recaiden]

I admit, I'm at a loss. The closest I could find was this (http://bluehillsbrewery.com/products.php)? :smallconfused:



Stegyre: not getting the joke since 1966.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treebeard

But with more partying.

[Cedar]

I worry that with this newfound knowledge, Stanley won't be returning to the safety of his cities... :smalleek:

Ow dear.. Guess who has the most Isengard signamancy now..

[eschmenk]

Are the fireworks metaphorical? :smallwink:


The issue then (it seems to me) would be whether archons could reach Stanley's present position, or his path back to Jetstone, from Charlescom in two or three turns.

Or could they capture Jetstone (or any other city he headed to) before he got there? Jetstone's tower was already worried that it was poorly defended.


I worry that with this newfound knowledge, Stanley won't be returning to the safety of his cities... :smalleek:

And yes, that's another potential problem. Charlie might have more than 3 turns to assemble an attack on Stanley if Stanley feels safe enough where he's at. The text said, "He'd planned to march these clowns to Spacerock over land..." but I think may have only referred to the fifteen of them that were promoted to knights and were supposed to go to Spacerock all along. The rest of the JEs would remain in the field wrecking things (http://archives.erfworld.com/book%203/83) under the original plan. Maybe the plan changed once Stanley got the message from Sizemore, though. And Stanley did say, "Assuming we make it through our next turn..." as if he knew that they were in considerable danger where they were at.

The picture at the bottom should be after GK's turn, but I can't tell if they moved or not.

[Calemyr]

Seems to me that there's a likely twist I haven't seen mentioned. Namely, that Charlie doesn't give a rat's tail about Stanley and only opposed Gobwin Knob because of Parson. Parson is now MIA and (hopefully) Charlie doesn't know where, just that he escaped. The big C has a lot of damage control on his plate right now to worry about a tiny tyrant who has lost all of his key assets. Everybody is assuming Stanley is on the hit list because nobody in Erf considers anyone (even a chief warlord) to be more important than the Overlord.

Just imagine him looking up at the sky just waiting. And waiting. And waiting...

"Welp. I'm bored."

[ryuplaneswalker]

No, he didn't. (http://archives.erfworld.com/book%203/87) And Stanley was already gone by then.



Charlie can't have any veiled Archons within 6 hexes of any GK city without paying huge fines automagically. We wasn't paying those fines, so they must not be any Archons near Spacerock. I already said that Charlie would have surveillance of Parson in the MK, but that would make it less likely that Charlie would notice Stanley when he flew away from Spacerock, not more likely.

Not that it matters, but Parson would have had no reason to enter the tunnel. The portal for GK (the city) doesn't work anymore because it's not a capital. GK (the side) has only one portal; it takes people to and from Spacerock.

My mistake, however it doesn't really change the tactics.

Parson is in 1 of 2 places, Magic Kingdom or Spacerock

Charlie doesn't need to have archons in MK spying for him he has Jojo and TF2 Enginer guy.

and "Can't have Archons within 6 hexes of GK cities" just means he has them 7 hexes away, I also wasn't talking about the Tunnel in the Magic Kingdom I was talking about the Corridor That Ansom made going from GK lands straight into SpaceRock.

Of course, Charlie spying upon GK and knowing that Stanley is in the field is a tad moot with today's update.

[NEO|Phyte]

Seems to me that there's a likely twist I haven't seen mentioned. Namely, that Charlie doesn't give a rat's tail about Stanley and only opposed Gobwin Knob because of Parson. Parson is now MIA and (hopefully) Charlie doesn't know where, just that he escaped. The big C has a lot of damage control on his plate right now to worry about a tiny tyrant who has lost all of his key assets. Everybody is assuming Stanley is on the hit list because nobody in Erf considers anyone (even a chief warlord) to be more important than the Overlord.

Just imagine him looking up at the sky just waiting. And waiting. And waiting...

"Welp. I'm bored."

The thing is, that tiny tyrant without his key assets is still in charge of paying for the upkeep of said assets (Leaving aside for the moment that I'm pretty sure prisoners get their upkeep paid by their captors). Charlie can't find his primary target? Nuke the side, see how long Parson can genius it up when he has the daily struggle of keeping upkeep paid on himself and whoever was stacked with him at the time.

[Tokay]

I can hardly wait to see these guys in action...

Might want to take a closer look at the last picture. Third guy from the left.

[Razade]

The thing is, that tiny tyrant without his key assets is still in charge of paying for the upkeep of said assets (Leaving aside for the moment that I'm pretty sure prisoners get their upkeep paid by their captors). Charlie can't find his primary target? Nuke the side, see how long Parson can genius it up when he has the daily struggle of keeping upkeep paid on himself and whoever was stacked with him at the time.

But that would be costly. Super costly. Nuking the side by chopping it's head off will be a one time cost. If you keep blasting the side it's a ton of money each time which will let them pay upkeep regardless of having their cities hit over and over and over. It's a really bad idea to do a protracted war with the side you've got a truce against when that side can just sit and play defense and throw the money you're giving them back at the offense.

[eschmenk]

The big C has a lot of damage control on his plate right now to worry about a tiny tyrant who has lost all of his key assets.

A lot of that damage control would consist of capturing Spacerock and getting the guns and killing anyone that Bonnie talked to or who might know what she said. That will be very expensive. Charlie will want to get his money back back by killing Stanley.

Do we know what will happen to Parson, Maggie and Jack if Stanley is killed while they are prisoners? Do they count as being out in the field? I think they would just become side-less, but I'm not certain. Transylvito is paying their upkeep, so that wouldn't be a concern.


Everybody is assuming Stanley is on the hit list because nobody in Erf considers anyone (even a chief warlord) to be more important than the Overlord.

I think that's an absurd statement to make. Do you have any basis for it?


But that would be costly. Super costly. Nuking the side by chopping it's head off will be a one time cost. If you keep blasting the side it's a ton of money each time which will let them pay upkeep regardless of having their cities hit over and over and over. It's a really bad idea to do a protracted war with the side you've got a truce against when that side can just sit and play defense and throw the money you're giving them back at the offense.

I thought Neo|Phyte was saying pretty much the same thing. I think he meant Parson by "primary target," not Stanley, if that's what you were thinking.

[Razade]

I thought Neo|Phyte was saying pretty much the same thing. I think he meant Parson by "primary target," not Stanley, if that's what you were thinking.

Neo|Phyte can certainly clarify but we agree. Parson is the Primary Target. Neo|Phyte is saying, and again he can clarify if I'm wrong, that if he can't get Parson he's going to go after Stanley and the side.

[DigoDragon]

I believe it has been mentioned that Parson has a really high upkeep. So Stanley is a viable target...

[stsasser]

Might want to take a closer look at the last picture. Third guy from the left.

Tolkien never described how elves breed. Now we know! :smallsmile:

[Razade]

Tolkien never described how elves breed. Now we know! :smallsmile:

We know they can have children with humans so they've got to do it like we do.

[Kantaki]

We know they can have children with humans so they've got to do it like we do.

Not necessarily. Kif from Futurama for example can have children with humans and in his case that works very differently.:smallbiggrin:
(Not that he qualifies in any way as a elf...)

[Kornaki]

I sadly only just realized the magnet miracle poles are a reference to the f***ing magnet song.

[Randomguy]

I was sort of expecting the Juggle elf advantage to be that their leadership is less centralized, so CharlesComm wouldn't be able to take them over the way he did with other natural allies.

I like this better, though. :smallbiggrin:

[Razade]

I sadly only just realized the magnet miracle poles are a reference to the f***ing magnet song.

The song is called Miracles.

[dauvis]

I was sort of expecting the Juggle elf advantage to be that their leadership is less centralized, so CharlesComm wouldn't be able to take them over the way he did with other natural allies.

I like this better, though. :smallbiggrin:

He might be able to. I get the impression that you can have gobwins or elves as natural allies but not both.

[Kornaki]

He might be able to. I get the impression that you can have gobwins or elves as natural allies but not both.

We have been told this several times in the comic

[Mando Knight]

He might be able to. I get the impression that you can have gobwins or elves as natural allies but not both.

Charlie's a Carnie with an attuned Arkentool, though. There's no telling what he could do to bend those rules.

[eschmenk]

IMO, the Juggles would automatically hate Charlie's corporate image and the fact that he plans everything out. The Juggles weren't very interested in getting money from Stanley, so it would probably be very difficult for Charlie to buy their loyalty. Even Stanley had to settle for limited control over the tribe, despite the facts that he could rock out and that he was the enemy of the royal sides. (Except for the Juggles that were promoted to knights, Stanley can only set broad goals (http://archives.erfworld.com/book%203/83), which he gives to Chief J and Shaggy.) Given that, there seems to be less of a chance that Charlie could turn the Juggles' loyalty away from Stanley toward himself. Charlie, being Charlie, might find a way, but it wouldn't be easy.

[halfeye]

Given that, there seems to be less of a chance that Charlie could turn the Juggles' loyalty away from Stanley toward himself. Charlie, being Charlie, might find a way, but it wouldn't be easy.
He would need a pawn who isn't royal. He probably has dozens, Ivan and Jojo to name two.

[-D-]

For a moment, I thought there was a new comic. Rob's really pushing these comics fast :smallsigh:

[eschmenk]

He might be able to. I get the impression that you can have gobwins or elves as natural allies but not both.

I don't think there is any actual rule. I think it's just that elves and gobwins naturally hate each other. Charlie could get around that by not letting the elves know about the gobwins. I doubt that most Archons know about them, either. I suspect that Charlie is hiding the gobwins underground. Given Ivan's ability to tunnel through bedrock, there might be armies of gobwins deep underneath CC or maybe Spacerock. Anyway, I don't think the fact that Charlie has gobwins would be a problem that he couldn't work around. I think the other issues I raised would be bigger problems.


He would need a pawn who isn't royal. He probably has dozens, Ivan and Jojo to name two.

Those aren't sides. They could bribe the elves to be independent or to join a third side, although the third side would have to be compatible with the Juggles.

Speaking of Jojo, I suspect that the Dark Carnival will become plot relevant at some point.

[-D-]

Speaking of Jojo, I suspect that the Dark Carnival will become plot relevant at some point.
Dark Carnival?

[eschmenk]

Dark Carnival?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Carnival_(Insane_Clown_Posse)

That's more about carnymancy in general than Jojo specifically. It ties in with the Juggle Elves, too. It could be that the Juggle elves can warp Fate just like Charlie can, or maybe they will decide that Jojo is a Titan, or who knows what? It seems like it could easily become some sort of plot device, though.

[SZbNAhL]

Dark Carnival is apparently a recurring theme in Insane Clown Posse albums as some kind of afterlife.

Edit: Nevermind, just look at the above link.

[eschmenk]

Come to think of it, if the Juggle Elves believe in the Dark Carnival, that might make the Thinkamancers very hostile to them and strain the relationship between the Thinkamancers and GK.

[Killer Angel]

Weeping Charlie doesn't get too much sympathies from me...

[The Glyphstone]

Nor does Charlie Sheen.

[Kantaki]

Weeping Charlie doesn't get too much sympathies from me...

Charlie and getting sympathy? Not in this life.
Interesting how bad off he really is without the dish.
Lets hope his image doesn't suffer too much from this. It would be a shame if Parson would defeat him indirectly.

I wonder why he considers Parson being a barbarian as bad as being a ruler. The latter I can understand, but wouldn't the former make Parson les dangerous?

[The Glyphstone]

Charlie and getting sympathy? Not in this life.
Interesting how bad off he really is without the dish.
Lets hope his image doesn't suffer too much from this. It would be a shame if Parson would defeat him indirectly.

I wonder why he considers Parson being a barbarian as bad as being a ruler. The latter I can understand, but wouldn't the former make Parson les dangerous?

It makes him a wild card, able to offer his services, and that of his OP Bracer, to any side. Would wreck Charlie's business model to have Parson running around loose.

[eschmenk]

It makes him a wild card, able to offer his services, and that of his OP Bracer, to any side. Would wreck Charlie's business model to have Parson running around loose.

Yes. Having Stanley as his ruler often limits what Parson can do against Charlie. There is a chance that Stanley might even not reappoint Parson as Chief Warlord.

Did we have any background on Bonnie? I'm wondering why she was a mistake. It sounded as if Charlie already regarded her that way before the battle. :smallconfused:

[Calemyr]

Yes. Having Stanley as his ruler often limits what Parson can do against Charlie. There is a chance that Stanley might even not reappoint Parson as Chief Warlord.

Exactly why he's worried now. Parson could single-handedly turn Transylvito, a severely weakened side with minor loyalty to Charlie and a dislike for Stanley, into a powerful side with loyalty to Stanley. All by fixing the little insurrection that's brewing and ongoing fights with neighbors. I don't know how Vinnie would side in that case. Hate the killers or just be happy to have Ansom on his side again?


Did we have any background on Bonnie? I'm wondering why she was a mistake. It sounded as if Charlie already regarded her that way before the battle. :smallconfused:

This was completely from his perspective, I think, with no consideration for what we know and don't know. This is what Charlie thought of his archons. Lillith was always a spitfire, and decryption did nothing to resolve that. Bonnie wasn't perfect, yet, but Charlie thought she could be and now she's in Parson's camp.

The key thing there is that Charlie knows his Archons. He's not Stanley, who barely knows his warlords by name, but struggles to because it impresses people. Charlie cares. Each archon is a unique and valuable entity to him, rather than just a fistful of stats. He doesn't just know them by name, but the name is accompanied by a little prose detailing what the archon means to him. And he will readily lie to them if it keeps them by his side.

[eschmenk]

Bonnie wasn't perfect, yet, but Charlie thought she could be and now she's in Parson's camp.

I disagree. Charlie: "And Bonnie, his misreckoning, the mistake he could not bear to discard..." That's pretty clearly calling her a "mistake." I think he thinks that he somehow screwed up while developing/carnying her personality. The thing to do would have been to abandon her (or maybe even disband her), but he couldn't bear to do it. (But yes, now she's in Parson's camp, additionally.)


Charlie cares. Each archon is a unique and valuable entity to him, rather than just a fistful of stats.

He should. He invested a lot of time and effort into developing them. At least those he thought had promise. Basically, Charlie mentored them and tried to develop them. I think it's patterned after the executive development career paths that some big corporations have.

I have a feeling that doesn't apply to all 600 Archons, though. It's hard to pay that level of attention to so many. If you read Tondelayo's story (http://archives.erfworld.com/book%203/123), it's obvious why she would have seemed to have unusual potential to Charlie even at level 1, so Charlie had probably been paying more attention to her development than to others.

[Zalabim]

So the Arkendish can monitor all kind of thinkamancy channels, including Ruler's orders. When it was fully powered, it could also record them to playback later. Right now he's limited to spying in real time. That's an amazing level of knowledge to have had.

[Anteros]

Weeping Charlie doesn't get too much sympathies from me...

He's doesn't garner any less than anyone else from me. I know he's a terrible person and unlikable, but that applies to basically every major character in the comic.

[ace rooster]

So the Arkendish can monitor all kind of thinkamancy channels, including Ruler's orders. When it was fully powered, it could also record them to playback later. Right now he's limited to spying in real time. That's an amazing level of knowledge to have had.

The playback functionality might not have been native to the dish, instead being part of the network of items attached to it. If nothing else, the dish is still functioning.

This update also reveals how much the Great Minds had managed to keep from him. The collidiscope may have been worth it simply to hide Parson. Dubious; left unsealed :smalltongue:.

It will be interesting to see how Charlie does now that he has suffered a major setback. It seems like this is the first one he has suffered in a very long time. He always calculated that Parson was a serious threat, but now I think he actually believes it.

[-D-]

He's doesn't garner any less than anyone else from me. I know he's a terrible person and unlikable, but that applies to basically every major character in the comic.
Not even Parson? :smalltongue:

To be honest I only really like Jack and Lilith somewhat. Though again I kinda hate Lilith because I suspect she lives/dies by what fans want.

[MReav]

Not even Parson? :smalltongue:

Dude often commits what would be considered war crimes.

[-D-]

Dude often commits what would be considered war crimes.
It was self defense :smalltongue:

EDIT: You know what they say, "Can't make an Omelette, without committing a genocide" or was it "Can't make an Omelette, without ruthlessly crushing your enemies beneath your mighty Dwagon".

[DataNinja]

EDIT: You know what they say, "Can't make an Omelette, without committing a genocide" or was it "Can't make an Omelette, without ruthlessly crushing your enemies beneath your mighty Dwagon".

I thought it was "can't make an omelette without doing experiments with immortality". :smalltongue:

[MReav]

EDIT: You know what they say, "Can't make an Omelette, without committing a genocide" or was it "Can't make an Omelette, without ruthlessly crushing your enemies beneath your mighty Dwagon".

I don't even like omelettes! They make me gassy!

[Anteros]

Not even Parson? :smalltongue:

To be honest I only really like Jack and Lilith somewhat. Though again I kinda hate Lilith because I suspect she lives/dies by what fans want.

I can actually list the characters I think are likable since it's so short. Sizemore, Jack, Vinnie, Tramennis and pre-decrypted Ansom. I like Stanley too since his recent growth.

[Razade]

Dude often commits what would be considered war crimes.

In a story about war where there are no such things as War Crimes. And he moralizes about them rather often.

[MReav]

In a story about war where there are no such things as War Crimes. And he moralizes about them rather often.

There are at least general conventions, like not faking a surrender, not attacking during a parley, not moving through neutral territory without their permission, not assassinating the enemy ruler during a negotiation...

Parson might moralize, but in the end, if the reason so many of the other sides don't trust him is because he's demonstrably untrustworthy, then it's not exactly an unfair reaction.

[Razade]

There are at least general conventions, like not faking a surrender, not attacking during a parley, not moving through neutral territory without their permission, not assassinating the enemy ruler during a negotiation...

We haven't seen any of them down. There isn't a U.N in Erfworld to agree to such things, no League of Nations. Nobody that declares these things.


Parson might moralize, but in the end, if the reason so many of the other sides don't trust him is because he's demonstrably untrustworthy, then it's not exactly an unfair reaction.

I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that he's not committing war crimes in Erfworld. He's doing guerrilla warfare. And he's had to because until the Arkenpliars he was fighting an alliance the side had no chance of beating without him. Does it excuse him from doing it? Maybe not in our world but WAR is what Erfworld does. There's life outside of war. There are no Civilians in Erfworld. Every unit in Erfworld is for war and every unit he has killed is literally bound by an unseen force to fulfill the wishes and desires of other people who push war. Applying the morals of our world and applying the ethics and war laws of our world to Erfworld is frankly ridiculous. It's not like Parson was doing this in Stupid World, he's doing them in a world where it's expected.

[eschmenk]

There are at least general conventions, like not faking a surrender, not attacking during a parley, not moving through neutral territory without their permission, not assassinating the enemy ruler during a negotiation...

I think the term "war crime" should be reserved for things that are far worse than simply violating established conventions of noble behavior. People do far worse things IRL. If we accuse someone of committing a war crime, it should mean more than that their behavior wasn't noble.

As to whether or not Parson is likable, that probably depends on the reader. I'm fine with what Parson does because I think he's preventing even worse things from happening.

[Razade]

I think the term "war crime" should be reserved for things that are far worse than simply violating established conventions of noble behavior. People do far worse things IRL. If we accuse someone of committing a war crime, it should mean more than that their behavior wasn't noble.

As to whether or not Parson is likable, that probably depends on the reader. I'm fine with what Parson does because I think he's preventing even worse things from happening.

Well to be fair, he did basically make a Doomsday Weapon with the Volcano.

[eschmenk]

Well to be fair, he did basically make a Doomsday Weapon with the Volcano.

OTOH, that was what Erfworld required him to do. He physically couldn't order Maggie, Wanda and Sizemore into the MK because his duty required him to attempt any gambit that might work (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/147).

IMO, the Titans would be the real war criminals in Erfworld because they're the ones who set things up the way they are.

[Douglas]

I think the term "war crime" should be reserved for things that are far worse than simply violating established conventions of noble behavior. People do far worse things IRL. If we accuse someone of committing a war crime, it should mean more than that their behavior wasn't noble.
I think the term "war crime" is being used here in its real world sense - and most of those things are actually, officially, war crimes in the real world.

Getting into that in a real world context would be breaking the forum rules, but consider the impact Parson's behavior has had in Erfworld. Even completely disregarding issues of honor, nobility, morality, etc., it's had a quite substantial practical impact. When Parson tries to negotiate, people don't trust him. Any face to face meeting now requires elaborate procedures to make certain he's not going to croak or capture whoever he's meeting. Any truce or parley now requires careful precautions to make sure he's not turning it into an ambush. Overall, even when both Parson and the other side genuinely want to end a war by talking things out, actually doing so has enormous logistical requirements. Ending a war through total extermination of the other side has come a great deal closer to being universally the simplest and easiest option. That is the real reason it's frowned upon.

[Razade]

OTOH, that was what Erfworld required him to do. He physically couldn't order Maggie, Wanda and Sizemore into the MK because his duty required him to attempt any gambit that might work (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/147).

IMO, the Titans would be the real war criminals in Erfworld because they're the ones who set things up the way they are.

We agree, what he did was what he had to do. Free Will isn't a thing in Erfworld.

[MReav]

I think the term "war crime" is being used here in its real world sense - and most of those things are actually, officially, war crimes in the real world.

Thank you.

[DigoDragon]

We should bottle those tears. Probably make a few thousand Shmuckers for them. :smallbiggrin:

[eschmenk]

Overall, even when both Parson and the other side genuinely want to end a war by talking things out, actually doing so has enormous logistical requirements. Ending a war through total extermination of the other side has come a great deal closer to being universally the simplest and easiest option. That is the real reason it's frowned upon.

You were right that perfidy is a war crime (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfidy) in the RW. I disagree that it's a big of a deal in Erfworld as you made it out to be, though. I think it was understood that different people had different standards of behavior there. People would have learned to not trust Parson, but I don't think that Parson would have had any universal impact. Some people would still be trusted; other people still wouldn't be trusted. Nothing would change. One would expect that Parson demonstrating that he can't be trusted would have made things worse for GK's troops, but so far, not even that has happened. If anything, it may have actually saved GK's forces at Spacerock.

Let's not forget that Jetstone's parleys were only intended to serve Jetstone's egos. They weren't intended to be anything that GK could benefit from. It's not as if making Jetstone unwilling to offer such a thing would make Erfworld a much worse place.

If someone really wants to negotiate to end a war, they will still find a way. Ansom is currently negotiating in Jetstone, for example. Sides could arrange to send messages back and forth via hats or to use thinkamancers. I don't think it's nearly as big of a deal as you made it out to be.

[MReav]

The point of bringing up Parson's perfidity was in response to a question as to why readers might find Parson unlikeable. That it could make him unlikeable in universe is besides the point.

[Aquillion]

Let's not forget that Jetstone's parleys were only intended to serve Jetstone's egos. They weren't intended to be anything that GK could benefit from.That's not true (although GK might not have realized this.) Tremennis made it clear he intended to take the negotiations seriously, since, as he pointed out, GK's wealth meant that it was still a threat.

They intended to kill Wanda, yes; there was no question about that. She was too dangerous, so losing her was always inevitable if GK lost. But there was still a lot of room for legitimate negotiation, and from the way Tremannis was talking to his father, he intended to make serious offers to GK -- ones they might have legitimately considered rather than just thinly-veiled insults. Not ones they would have liked, but, well, that's what happens when you're losing (and, as far as he knew, they were.)

[eschmenk]

Parson might moralize, but in the end, if the reason so many of the other sides don't trust him is because he's demonstrably untrustworthy, then it's not exactly an unfair reaction.


The point of bringing up Parson's perfidity was in response to a question as to why readers might find Parson unlikeable. That it could make him unlikeable in universe is besides the point.

:smallconfused:

First of all, I think that the matter of what point you wanted to make is irrelevant because I was responding to Douglas, not to you. Why shouldn't I talk about what I want to talk about? You don't have any authority to unilaterally define what the subject matter is especially when I'm responding to someone else.

Secondly, it looks to me as if you brought up the subject of how Parson is regarded in-world yourself, so how could you claim it was beside the point, even if you had the authority to do so?

[MReav]

That first part was in response to someone else's dismissal of what Parson had done and the second was I'll admit a poor attempt to steer the conversation back to the original point of who was likeable and who was not. I'll not butt in again.

[Razade]

That first part was in response to someone else's dismissal of what Parson had done and the second was I'll admit a poor attempt to steer the conversation back to the original point of who was likeable and who was not. I'll not butt in again.

Likability is subjective, no one (as far as I know) has argued that Parson is or isn't likable. That's up to the individual reader. What I said was Parson hasn't committed war crimes because in a world that is nothing but war and with no ruling body to determine what the -rules- are outside the Titans there are no War Crimes, especially in a world where everything is guided by Fate. You can't commit a crime if you've got no autonomy.

[eschmenk]

That's not true (although GK might not have realized this.) Tremennis made it clear he intended to take the negotiations seriously, since, as he pointed out, GK's wealth meant that it was still a threat.

Stately didn't seem to understand it that way. Stately's reaction was, "You know, I think you just want to talk to this warlord." Tramennis didn't refute that. I don't think either of them expected Stanley to be willing to accept what Tramennis was going to propose. If Stately had learned to trust Tramennis by that point, maybe there would have been a good chance of something good coming out of the negotiations, but Stately still didn't. Stanley wouldn't have trusted Parson all that much, either, unless he was still under Maggie's spell. I doubt that things would have worked out decently from that.

After Stately was dead and Parson got Stanley to agree to try diplomacy, things became much more favorable for a truce between Jetstone and GK, but that still hasn't happened yet.

[guttering flame]

There are at least general conventions, like not faking a surrender, not attacking during a parley, not moving through neutral territory without their permission, not assassinating the enemy ruler during a negotiation...

Faking surrender and breaking parley may be frowned upon but you just need to examine the usual preparations for them in our world (meeting on neutral grounds, not bringing weapons, giving hostages for ensuring good behavior, disarmament, the list goes on) to see how uncertain they are.

When Parson used the Magic Kingdom they stopped being neutral though to be fair to Goblin Knob they were being ostracised in the MK even before that.

As for the Volcano, the Coalition was in the process of exterminating the Goblin Knobbers. And extermination of this side and everyone in it was the plan from the beginning. Parson didn't kill any civilians with the volcano. They even decrypted the casualties.

If there was a real War Crime in the story it was burning down a city and everyone in it with dragons (happened during Ansom and Wanda's campaign). It was either Wanda or Sylvia's decision. Parson thought it was kinda horrible.

eschmenk
Stately didn't ...

Jetstone's former ruler is called Slately.

[Razade]

As for the Volcano, the Coalition was in the process of exterminating the Goblin Knobbers. And extermination of this side and everyone in it was the plan from the beginning. Parson didn't kill any civilians with the volcano. They even decrypted the casualties.

There are no civilians in Erfworld to kill.

[ace rooster]

There are no civilians in Erfworld to kill.

Well that does make it easier.

[-D-]

Well that does make it easier.

Name one person that isn't expected to contribute to war effort?

[Yuki Akuma]

Most courtiers?

[-D-]

Most courtiers?
They are advisors to the commander and they can also serve in the army. They are like generals, not expected to take the helm, but can be called upon to serve.

Erfworld doesn't have elderly, women and children in the classical sense. Erfworld people don't produce an offspring, elderly are just people Fate wants removed and children don't exist at all.

[Razade]

Most courtiers?

They have stat blocks and combat abilities and combat uses. Courtiers are just other Units that have special privilage. There is no Unit Courtier that we've seen. Everything in Erfworld is geared to fighting. There are no farms and farmers, animals just live their life and when they die they become food. There are no clothes washers, clothing just gets clean at the start of the round. Doctors are all Healomancers. We haven't seen Scientists, just Casters. Buildings without combat use are empty facades. There's no one living in cities that aren't there to defend the city in some way shape or form. There are no civilian casualties to be concerned about, there are only enemies and nominal allies.

[Kantaki]

They have stat blocks and combat abilities and combat uses. Courtiers are just other Units that have special privilage. There is no Unit Courtier that we've seen. Everything in Erfworld is geared to fighting. There are no farms and farmers, animals just live their life and when they die they become food. There are no clothes washers, clothing just gets clean at the start of the round. Doctors are all Healomancers. We haven't seen Scientists, just Casters. Buildings without combat use are empty facades. There's no one living in cities that aren't there to defend the city in some way shape or form. There are no civilian casualties to be concerned about, there are only enemies and nominal allies.

Ähm, I'm pretty sure there are farms, they just work automagically. And are more efficient if you assign someone to look at them every day. Just like other types of building.
Like Parson in Gobwin Knob or Tindelao on Charlie’s chicken farm.

[Razade]

Ähm, I'm pretty sure there are farms, they just work automagically. And are more efficient if you assign someone to look at them every day. Just like other types of building.
Like Parson in Gobwin Knob or Tindelao on Charlie’s chicken farm.

They're called farms, they don't function like farms in Stupid World. They're just plots with animals that live and die. We're never told about non-animal food but I suppose one could make that leap. There's no one planting anything, no one raising the chicks. It all just happens on its own. The manager doesn't have to do anything, there's no work involved. There's no skills gained from being a farmer that we've seen. There's another bit to this though. Killing in Erfworld isn't immoral. Killing is the expected thing to do. It's what you're meant to do. That's what Book One is all about, Parson -not- wanting to kill because he thinks its wrong. That's the whole conflict between Parson and Sizemore. People aren't upset that Parson killed all those people with the Volcanco (except maybe Sizemore), they're upset because he did it in an underhanded way and that they're not Royals.

[Yuki Akuma]

People appear to be able to plant vegetables to make gardens, actually - Dove has apparently done it in the Digdoug chapter. Digdoug did some Dirtamancy to make it more efficient for a few turns.

That might require magic though. Dove is a caster after all.

[Anteros]

We don't need to imagine hypothetical farm workers. There are plenty of innocent non combatants in the MK who are now dead as a direct result of Parson's actions.

[SZbNAhL]

People appear to be able to plant vegetables to make gardens, actually - Dove has apparently done it in the Digdoug chapter. Digdoug did some Dirtamancy to make it more efficient for a few turns.

That might require magic though. Dove is a caster after all.

I seem to recall the Florists having a communal vegetable garden as well. Might be that it's a Hippie power that Dove cloned through Carneymancy, but I think the simpler explanation is that any barbarian willing to spend a long time in one place can do it. Occam's Razor and all that.

[Reverent-One]

We don't need to imagine hypothetical farm workers. There are plenty of innocent non combatants in the MK who are now dead as a direct result of Parson's actions.

No, they're dead because Charlie killed them. Parson didn't force him to do a spray and pray attack into the MK.

[-D-]

We don't need to imagine hypothetical farm workers. There are plenty of innocent non combatants in the MK who are now dead as a direct result of Parson's actions.
You mean Charlie's? Parson was in MK but he didn't kill no one unless in self-defense.

[Anteros]

1. None of that would have happened if Parson hadn't violated their peace in the first place. He's responsible for putting them at risk.

Actions have consequences, and when you invade a neutral country you are responsible when the inhabitants of that country are drawn into your wars.

2. Plenty of Gobwin Knob troops were shooting casters too. I'm also hard pressed to call it pure self defense when they're reacting to the fact that Wanda did actually decrypt several casters. Even if they didn't kill the casters in the first place, performing necromancy on their corpses and mind wiping them into their slaves is a pretty clear act of aggression.

[Recaiden]

1. You may as well blame the Coalition for forcing Parson into the MK in the first place.

2. After the casters attacked them.

[Razade]

We don't need to imagine hypothetical farm workers. There are plenty of innocent non combatants in the MK who are now dead as a direct result of Parson's actions.

Name one. As I recall every single person in the Magic Kingdom is a Caster capable of natural shockomancy along with a slew of magical powers all of whom can and by Erfworld rules should be hired out by sides for various purposes of war, combat and protecting sides from the aforementioned two things.

[Anteros]

Name one. As I recall every single person in the Magic Kingdom is a Caster capable of natural shockomancy along with a slew of magical powers all of whom can and by Erfworld rules should be hired out by sides for various purposes of war, combat and protecting sides from the aforementioned two things.

Plenty of them explicitly live peacefully and don't engage in combat at all. Possessing the ability to fight doesn't mean you're not a civilian.


1. You may as well blame the Coalition for forcing Parson into the MK in the first place.

2. After the casters attacked them.

1. No one "forced" Parson to attack Jetstone through a portal. No one "forced" him to station troops there. No one "forced" him to try to get to Charlie through his portal. Those are choices he made, and he is responsible for those choices.

2. Again, after they performed necromancy on several units, wiped away their personalities, and forcefully recruited them to their side.

[Reverent-One]

1. No one "forced" Parson to attack Jetstone through a portal. No one "forced" him to station troops there. Those are choices he made, and he is responsible for those choices.

Good, then we agree that Charlie is responsible for his own choices as well, which includes the indiscriminate fire into the MK.


2. Again, after they performed necromancy on several units, wiped away their personalities, and forcefully recruited them to their side.

Which doesn't change that the casters attacking them were no longer innocent non combatants.

[Razade]

Plenty of them explicitly live peacefully and don't engage in combat at all. Possessing the ability to fight doesn't mean you're not a civilian.

Then you shouldn't have a problem giving a name for one of them. By the rules of Erfworld there are no Civilians. Erfworld is a combat game made real and war is "cute" by our standard. Parson's changed that obviously but he was summoned to do that. By some of the self styled pacifists you're claiming aren't part of the war. The Neutrality of the Magic Kingdom as a whole also does not reflect the fact that Casters are intended to be hired by sides who can't afford to keep them indefinitely.


1. No one "forced" Parson to attack Jetstone through a portal. No one "forced" him to station troops there. Those are choices he made, and he is responsible for those choices.

No one forced Parson into this conflict in the first...oh wait. Parson is doing what he has to do to survive a world that's not his own and fighting against a side that has repeatedly broken the rules. If Parson wasn't playing dirty he'd be dead. The entire story is stacked against him because his opponent literally is cutting the deck. An antagonist, by the way, who has had mostly a free pass in Erfworld because he's got the money to do what he wants.


2. Again, after they performed necromancy on several units, wiped away their personalities, and forcefully recruited them to their side.

We've never seen Decryption "wipe away" someone's personalities. Altered them sure but they're still mostly the same person which I think is actually worse. If they were wiped clean and replaced with a separate personality it'd be easier to stomach than the forced brain washing the Pliers do once you've been Decrypted.

[virgileso]

Not sure how it's brainwashing any more than what units naturally experience to their ruler when they first pop, the only difference is that they retain the memories of their prior life. I am certain that if Albert were croaked and decrypted, he'd be just as snarky with Wanda as he was with Jillian.

[Razade]

Not sure how it's brainwashing any more than what units naturally experience to their ruler when they first pop, the only difference is that they retain the memories of their prior life. I am certain that if Albert were croaked and decrypted, he'd be just as snarky with Wanda as he was with Jillian.

It is, in every sense we've seen, a fundamental shift in their personality and previous beliefs. The fact that it functions as a change of Duty only further speaks to the underlying horror that is Erfworld where no one has Free Will and whose very existence is as tenuous as a change of clothing. It's worse when the base person remains the same but the things they believe and have faith in can switch on a dime with a little meddling, especially when there are things like Thinkamancers running around.

[Anteros]

Good, then we agree that Charlie is responsible for his own choices as well, which includes the indiscriminate fire into the MK.



Charlie being responsible doesn't absolve Parson. It's possible to have more than one crappy person in a scenario like this.


Which doesn't change that the casters attacking them were no longer innocent non combatants.

No, they were just people defending themselves. The one's Parson got killed immediately prior to that were just minding their own business.



Then you shouldn't have a problem giving a name for one of them. By the rules of Erfworld there are no Civilians. Erfworld is a combat game made real and war is "cute" by our standard. Parson's changed that obviously but he was summoned to do that. By some of the self styled pacifists you're claiming aren't part of the war. The Neutrality of the Magic Kingdom as a whole also does not reflect the fact that Casters are intended to be hired by sides who can't afford to keep them indefinitely.


Isaac along with most of the thinkamancers are noncombatants. Janis certainly is as well. Actually, every single Hippiemancer pretty much has to be by definition. Even among other disciplines there are any number of non combat things a caster could hire themselves out for.



No one forced Parson into this conflict in the first...oh wait. Parson is doing what he has to do to survive a world that's not his own and fighting against a side that has repeatedly broken the rules. If Parson wasn't playing dirty he'd be dead. The entire story is stacked against him because his opponent literally is cutting the deck. An antagonist, by the way, who has had mostly a free pass in Erfworld because he's got the money to do what he wants.


This argument would make more sense if Parson didn't literally have the ability to leave Erfworld at any time.

Even if for some reason we decide to blindly ignore that fact, he's still responsible for his actions. He didn't need to invade the MK to survive. At all. That's a complete fiction. It was tactically beneficial, but he certainly didn't have to do it to survive, or even win the battle.



We've never seen Decryption "wipe away" someone's personalities. Altered them sure but they're still mostly the same person which I think is actually worse. If they were wiped clean and replaced with a separate personality it'd be easier to stomach than the forced brain washing the Pliers do once you've been Decrypted.

Some characters like Jack retain most of their personality, while others like Ansom are very, very different. Even in the most benign cases, wiping away all of someone's loyalties and replacing them with slavish devotion to yourself is pretty freaking awful.

Would you be willing to have someone do it to you? Somehow I doubt it.

[Lethologica]

Actually, every single Hippiemancer pretty much has to be by definition.
Olive.

Parson was prepared to lose everything without a single shot being fired. So it's bizarre to say the subsequent shooting is a direct result of Parson's actions. Nor was Parson responsible for Wanda taking over and Decrypting casters, or for Jojo's propaganda. So you have one indirect cause to work with--that is, that Parson's very presence in the MK put the MK at risk. Of course, the MK was already at risk from a Charlie invasion--MK just didn't know about it. Now they do.

[Kantaki]

Some characters like Jack retain most of their personality, while others like Ansom are very, very different. Even in the most benign cases, wiping away all of someone's loyalties and replacing them with slavish devotion to yourself is pretty freaking awful.

Would you be willing to have someone do it to you? Somehow I doubt it.

I don't think Ansom’s personality changed. He always was a bit of a fanatic, all that changed was the focus of his fanaticism from „royalty” to „toolism”.
Maybe it seems that way because he fights his former allies now, but at his core he is still Ansom, Prince of Jetstone. He still acts like he did pre-volcano and definitely still cares about his family to a certain degree.

[Razade]

Isaac along with most of the thinkamancers are noncombatants. Janis certainly is as well. Actually, every single Hippiemancer pretty much has to be by definition. Even among other disciplines there are any number of non combat things a caster could hire themselves out for.

Not physically fighting does not in fact make you a non-combatant. Isaac is the leader of a world wide conspiracy to control the world and works through agents (like Parson) to fulfill their purposes and desire. That is the very definition of a combatant. Janis has fought and Janis was part of the plot to bring Parson into the world and is using him to her own ends as well. She's invested in this entire War to end War. She's a caring and kind soul at heart but her actions are killing a lot of people. You've got a weird way of defining non-combatant. I'd call both Janis and Isaac pretty dang belligerent at this stage of the game. And Hippimancers are used in war. Someone's already pointed out Dove. Any other characters you can think of?



This argument would make more sense if Parson didn't literally have the ability to leave Erfworld at any time.

You'd have a point if Erfworld itself has made it impossible for Parson to leave. Fate all but refused to let Parson even know the scroll he had would let him leave and when he tried, because he did try to go home, Fate decided it was time to bring a flaming building down on top of his head. Or have you forgotten? (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%202/201) It's like we're reading two different comics at this point.



Even if for some reason we decide to blindly ignore that fact, he's still responsible for his actions. He didn't need to invade the MK to survive. At all. That's a complete fiction. It was tactically beneficial, but he certainly didn't have to do it to survive, or even win the battle.

Well two things. War sucks and you have to do horrible things when presented with horrible outcomes. The other option is to let the very agressive and very eager people who want to kill you...kill you. I don't know about you but it if came to me living and doing something horrible and me dying in a battle I didn't want to fight in the first place...I sure hope it's no one I love on the other side of the conflict because they're going to go down. Or I'm going to try and take them down, I'm a 5'3 mildly overweight dude with little to no combat experience so my chances of being effective in a combat situation is slim to none. But I sure won't let that stop me. I'm going to live as long as I possibly can and screw everyone else who has decided that that's not about to happen.

The second thing however is that Parson isn't responsible for his actions. Not really. Because Erfworld is a world governed by Fate and the story we're being given is a story that Parson is even fighting Fate itself to do what he has to do. Wanda's little speech about how Parson is going to do horrible things because he has no choice wasn't her being her drab weird self. She's being serious. There's no autonomy in Erfworld because there's no Free Will. There's not even an illusion of Free Will. Every unit and every character from the lowest Stabber to the highest Ruler knows Fate and knows that they live and die by it. Parson is no different except for the fact that he was summoned to put an end to this crap show.



Some characters like Jack retain most of their personality, while others like Ansom are very, very different. Even in the most benign cases, wiping away all of someone's loyalties and replacing them with slavish devotion to yourself is pretty freaking awful.

Ansom is still Ansom, he's still the same brash overconfident jerkhole he was before he Decrpyted. Now he's just found a new religion and he wants to spread it around a little more zealously than before.


Would you be willing to have someone do it to you? Somehow I doubt it.

I believe I've called the entire world of Erfworld a horror show. One more horror on top of the crap sundae that is a world where your every action is dictated to you by some unseen and unknowable meta-entity means little to me. I'd rather blow my brains halfway across Gobwin Knob than live in a world where even the illusion of Free Will wasn't a thing. But even then, I'd be fated to do that. Like I said, horror show.

[Anteros]

Olive.

Parson was prepared to lose everything without a single shot being fired. So it's bizarre to say the subsequent shooting is a direct result of Parson's actions. Nor was Parson responsible for Wanda taking over and Decrypting casters, or for Jojo's propaganda. So you have one indirect cause to work with--that is, that Parson's very presence in the MK put the MK at risk. Of course, the MK was already at risk from a Charlie invasion--MK just didn't know about it. Now they do.

The point being that none of this would have happened if he didn't disregard the MK's neutrality and station himself and his troops there in the first place.

Hell, none of this would have happened if he wasn't trying to break their neutrality again by having Lillith try to use the portal.


Not physically fighting does not in fact make you a non-combatant. Isaac is the leader of a world wide conspiracy to control the world and works through agents (like Parson) to fulfill their purposes and desire. That is the very definition of a combatant. Janis has fought and Janis was part of the plot to bring Parson into the world and is using him to her own ends as well. She's invested in this entire War to end War. She's a caring and kind soul at heart but her actions are killing a lot of people. You've got a weird way of defining non-combatant. I'd call both Janis and Isaac pretty dang belligerent at this stage of the game. And Hippimancers are used in war. Someone's already pointed out Dove. Any other characters you can think of?


Do you know what the word combatant means? Because it doesn't seem like you do.



You'd have a point if Erfworld itself has made it impossible for Parson to leave. Fate all but refused to let Parson even know the scroll he had would let him leave and when he tried, because he did try to go home, Fate decided it was time to bring a flaming building down on top of his head. Or have you forgotten? (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%202/201) It's like we're reading two different comics at this point.


He doesn't try so the point is moot.


Well two things. War sucks and you have to do horrible things when presented with horrible outcomes. The other option is to let the very agressive and very eager people who want to kill you...kill you. I don't know about you but it if came to me living and doing something horrible and me dying in a battle I didn't want to fight in the first place...I sure hope it's no one I love on the other side of the conflict because they're going to go down. Or I'm going to try and take them down, I'm a 5'3 mildly overweight dude with little to no combat experience so my chances of being effective in a combat situation is slim to none. But I sure won't let that stop me. I'm going to live as long as I possibly can and screw everyone else who has decided that that's not about to happen.


War crimes are a thing. So no.



The second thing however is that Parson isn't responsible for his actions. Not really. Because Erfworld is a world governed by Fate and the story we're being given is a story that Parson is even fighting Fate itself to do what he has to do. Wanda's little speech about how Parson is going to do horrible things because he has no choice wasn't her being her drab weird self. She's being serious. There's no autonomy in Erfworld because there's no Free Will. There's not even an illusion of Free Will. Every unit and every character from the lowest Stabber to the highest Ruler knows Fate and knows that they live and die by it. Parson is no different except for the fact that he was summoned to put an end to this crap show.


I don't agree with that at all. The whole point of the story is about subverting fate. If we just say fate is responsible for everything then Charlie should be absolved of all his crimes along with everyone else.

I think we're well into agree to disagree territory.

[Razade]

Razade, I don't feel like debating it anymore. Agree to disagree.

If that's how you feel I suppose.

[Recaiden]

The second thing however is that Parson isn't responsible for his actions. Not really. Because Erfworld is a world governed by Fate and the story we're being given is a story that Parson is even fighting Fate itself to do what he has to do. Wanda's little speech about how Parson is going to do horrible things because he has no choice wasn't her being her drab weird self. She's being serious. There's no autonomy in Erfworld because there's no Free Will. There's not even an illusion of Free Will. Every unit and every character from the lowest Stabber to the highest Ruler knows Fate and knows that they live and die by it. Parson is no different except for the fact that he was summoned to put an end to this crap show.

But that's not how Fate works. (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%200/24) Parson must do certain things that he's fated to do. At the same time, there's a great deal that it not predetermined, and so he can be held accountable for almost everything. Certainly how he chooses to fight Charlie. Parson fought Fate directly with his bracer in Jetstone, Maggie told him that the sword wasn't controlling him, etc. If most things don't have Fate, then whenever a fated being interacts with them, they're still responsible.

Wanda wants to believe that there's no free will at all because it would mean she's not responsible at all for these horrible things that have happened. She might actually believe it. But that doesn't make her right about it all.

[Jasdoif]

I don't agree with that at all. The whole point of the story is about subverting fate. If we just say fate is responsible for everything then Charlie should be absolved of all his crimes along with everyone else.Indeed. "Personal freedom of choice in a world of high-level imperatives" has always been the most interesting aspect of Erfworld, and it's sad that it's been on the backburner more often than not ever since the beginning of Book 2.

[Razade]

Do you know what the word combatant means? Because it doesn't seem like you do.

Sure do. Generals are, according to you apparently, non-combatants.


He doesn't try so the point is moot.

Except he does. I just posted the exact page where he tries.


Yeah, it was time now. Time to go home.
He spoke, with a new understanding of how to intone the words of a spell. It was as different from plain speech as singing, but in a magical way.
“Roses are–”
The burning plaster hit his arms, just soon enough to warn him, just the barest moment before the flaming wooden beam came down on his helmet and flattened him to the floor. The magic sense–and every other sense–left Parson Gotti‘s mind.

Bottom of the page. There's nothing to argue here. You are, without a shred of doubt, wrong in the above statement.


War crimes are a thing. So no.

I'm not going to insult your intelligence by acting like you think what you just said had anything to do with what I said in the quote. Regardless, War Crimes aren't a thing in Erfworld so you don't have a point even if it was relevant.


I don't agree with that at all. The whole point of the story is about subverting fate. If we just say fate is responsible for everything then Charlie should be absolved of all his crimes along with everyone else.

Carny magic displaces Fate. For a time. Charlie is a Master Carnymancer, he's been mucking against Fate for a long time. Willfully. It is his fault. Parson doesn't have that power. Though I agree that certainly is one of the themes. I wish we could get back to it.


I think we're well into agree to disagree territory.

Well, I thought we were done but you edited in replies after telling me you weren't going to carry on the discussion anymore. But I agree, I don't see a point when you're going to ignore actual text in the actual comic so you can keep making your point.

[Lethologica]

The point being that none of this would have happened if he didn't disregard the MK's neutrality and station himself and his troops there in the first place.

Hell, none of this would have happened if he wasn't trying to break their neutrality again by having Lillith try to use the portal.
That he was generally putting MK at risk by his presence I've already granted. How was Charlie firing indiscriminately into MK and killing neutrals a foreseeable consequence of Lillith's directions?

[-D-]

The point being that none of this would have happened if he didn't disregard the MK's neutrality and station himself and his troops there in the first place.
Except, that without it he would be attacked by casters, and probably killed. He did took it for his protection. Sure it has after effects, but this wasn't squarely on his shoulders.


Hell, none of this would have happened if he wasn't trying to break their neutrality again by having Lillith try to use the portal.

He wasn't breaking their neutrality. Neutrality says don't enter any other side's portal. There is no rule about picking up stuff that fell out of an enemy portal. He was bending around the rules, but he wasn't breaking like in Book 2, where he entered enemy territory off turn.


Do you know what the word combatant means? Because it doesn't seem like you do.
Neither do you, for that matter. Let's look at: https://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_cha_chapter1_rule3


According to this rule, when military medical and religious personnel are members of the armed forces, they are nevertheless considered non-combatants. According to the First Geneva Convention, temporary medical personnel have to be respected and protected as non-combatants only as long as the medical assignment lasts (see commentary to Rule 25).[14] As is the case for civilians (see Rule 6), respect for non-combatants is contingent on their abstaining from taking a direct part in hostilities.
The moment those casters pulled out their wands and start firing, they lost any right to call themselves civilian. And this makes sense. A doctor operating on a patient is a civilian. A doctor that takes a gun and starts firing isn't a civilian. If it was another way, you'd have armies marching pretending to be Red Cross.



War crimes are a thing. So no.
War crimes are a thing in our world. In Erfworld how do you determine culpability when your Warlord can essentially compel other units to do something, even if they disagree, unless they think it won't help side. In Erfworld compelling someone to fire at a Healomancer isn't a thing you can refuse. Not without a strong sense it would hurt your side.

And even beyond that, there is a matter of Fate. They definitely influence your decision to some extent. While I don't agree that Fate is all encompasing. For some interpretations, Fate could have heavy influence over actors in a prophecy, or perhaps everyone else.


I don't agree with that at all. The whole point of the story is about subverting fate.
For a story about subverting Fate, there was very little Fate subverted. So far none. Fate was only delayed.

[Razade]

While I don't agree that Fate is all encompasing. For some interpretations, Fate could have heavy influence over actors in a prophecy, or perhaps everyone else.

The problem with Fate is by its very existence it is all encompassing. There's no such thing as Free Will or Subverting Fate in a world where Fate exists. If you do something that wasn't Fated...that's just Fated to happen. If you're Subverting Fate you're just doing what you're Fated to do. If you haven't Subverted Fate yet, you just weren't Fated to do it at that moment.

[eschmenk]

We don't need to imagine hypothetical farm workers. There are plenty of innocent non combatants in the MK who are now dead as a direct result of Parson's actions.

I could understand someone seeing things this way if they had been talking with Jojo.


The problem with Fate is by its very existence it is all encompassing.

That's not the way Fate works in Erfworld according to Marie. It seems that you are applying your understanding of fate from some other source to Erfworld's version of Fate.

[Lethologica]

The problem with Fate is by its very existence it is all encompassing. There's no such thing as Free Will or Subverting Fate in a world where Fate exists. If you do something that wasn't Fated...that's just Fated to happen. If you're Subverting Fate you're just doing what you're Fated to do. If you haven't Subverted Fate yet, you just weren't Fated to do it at that moment.
Fate has been consistently portrayed as narrower than that in comic.

[-D-]

I could understand someone seeing things this way if they had been talking with Jojo.
I could see someone agreeing they were a purple balloon after talking to JoJo.


That's not the way Fate works in Erfworld according to Marie. It seems that you are applying your understanding of fate from some other source to Erfworld's version of Fate.
I definitely where Razade is coming from. Manos, Hands of Fate in Book 2, shows us that Fate can do stuff beyond just vague notions. Unless someone is telling me that a piece of wood, had Fate to die in the fire, I'm going to say that my interpretation of Fate definitely is leaning more to all encompassing. And while Predictamancers do see some elements of Fate they probably don't have the full picture.

Fate can at very least manipulate other Erfworlders (Archons saving Charlie, possibly Jill's jester) and objects (Parson's clash with flaming piece of wood) as well as Numbers (modifying spawn rate of Dwagons). I'm pretty sure if Wanda jumped of a tower she would survive, albeit incapacitated.

[Razade]

That's not the way Fate works in Erfworld according to Marie. It seems that you are applying your understanding of fate from some other source to Erfworld's version of Fate.

Marie explains it from her understanding certainly. We're unlikely to get any further insights from her on the matter however.


Fate has been consistently portrayed as narrower than that in comic.

Except for the times it has not, in fact, been shown to be that narrow you mean.

[Jasdoif]

I'm pretty sure if Wanda jumped of a tower she would survive, albeit incapacitated.Surviving a jump is a normal though unlikely possibility (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%202/87), as is a 2% chance of failing to cast a spell (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%202/201).

In Book 1, Wanda would most likely jump, and survive. Book 2 or later? Fate would do something showy to the preempt the attempt entirely, like an earthquake "happening" to knock her off her feet before she got anywhere near where she could jump.

[ryuplaneswalker]

It's like we're reading two different comics at this point.


People need to stop saying this, coming to a different opinion as to what is happening based on the evidence has nothing to do with reading two different comics. It is disrespectful, insulting and frankly just a way to call people stupid for disagreeing with you.

[eschmenk]

Fate can at very least manipulate other Erfworlders (Archons saving Charlie, possibly Jill's jester) and objects (Parson's clash with flaming piece of wood) as well as Numbers (modifying spawn rate of Dwagons). I'm pretty sure if Wanda jumped of a tower she would survive, albeit incapacitated.

I agree that Fate can do those things, but that doesn't mean that Fate is always controlling everyone and everything. Marie says that Fate doesn't care about some people. Why would Fate necessarily bother to control someone who is irrelevant to Fate's interests?


People need to stop saying this, coming to a different opinion as to what is happening based on the evidence has nothing to do with reading two different comics. It is disrespectful, insulting and frankly just a way to call people stupid for disagreeing with you.

I think you are overreacting. You seem to be making an assumption about what factors are involved in reaching the stated opinions. You aren't a mind-reader. You may not be correct about what factors were involved. Secondly, the statement you quoted doesn't give any indication about which of the two people involved would have been the one reading the wrong comic in the analogy, so it seems to be a huge leap to say that it is "disrespectful, insulting and frankly just a way to call people stupid." It merely seems to indicate frustration to me.

[Razade]

People need to stop saying this, coming to a different opinion as to what is happening based on the evidence has nothing to do with reading two different comics. It is disrespectful, insulting and frankly just a way to call people stupid for disagreeing with you.

Except in this case the poster was arguing something that actually happened in the comic didn't actually happen. With such force of conviction I can't just assume they forgot about it. The only other option available is we're not actually reading the same work. This isn't a matter of opinion, it's a matter of missing something that was objectively in the work we're discussing.

[Lethologica]

Except for the times it has not, in fact, been shown to be that narrow you mean.
Really? We've been shown an all-encompassing Fate that controls everything? Please cite page numbers.

[Razade]

Really? We've been shown an all-encompassing Fate that controls everything? Please cite page numbers.

Already provided one. Parson trying to use the Scroll to go home and Fate making sure that didn't happen. That would be Book 2: Text Update 59. The Bracer lied to him even though the Scroll would for sure work and when he was about to cast it dropped a house on him.

[Recaiden]

Provides no evidence of what you claim. Only shows Fate enforcing a specific prophecy regarding Parson.

[eschmenk]

Provides no evidence of what you claim. Only shows Fate enforcing a specific prophecy regarding Parson.

I agree. That's just an example of a situation where Fate did something. There is a big difference between that and what is said here:


The problem with Fate is by its very existence it is all encompassing. There's no such thing as Free Will or Subverting Fate in a world where Fate exists. If you do something that wasn't Fated...that's just Fated to happen. If you're Subverting Fate you're just doing what you're Fated to do. If you haven't Subverted Fate yet, you just weren't Fated to do it at that moment.

Where do those statements about Fate come from? I don't recall any of that ever being said in the comic.

[Lethologica]

Already provided one. Parson trying to use the Scroll to go home and Fate making sure that didn't happen. That would be Book 2: Text Update 59. The Bracer lied to him even though the Scroll would for sure work and when he was about to cast it dropped a house on him.
If your claim about Fate were correct, Parson would not have tried to use the scroll to go home in the first place. It would not be possible to oppose Fate. The bracer would not have given multiple readings, just the one Fate wanted Parson to see. Your citation demonstrates that your claim is false. Or, at best, it demonstrates that the best possible argument for your claim is "All that stuff that didn't look Fated was actually Fated," which is unsupported.

The evidence of the comic so far is that Fate is powerful, but not all-encompassing. That it ultimately gets its way, but can be opposed. That it cares about some people, but not others. That it lies, but not perfectly. Very different from the universal determinism you claimed was the nature of Fate in this comic.

[-D-]

Hnnnnnk. FAAAAAAAAAAAAATE.

[Dragonus45]

While it seems people have the ability to resist fate, pretty much everything about Wanda's story seems to be the lesson that those who resist fate are punished for it. Made to suffer until they are broken and no longer have the power or the will to resist.

[eschmenk]

Already provided one. Parson trying to use the Scroll to go home and Fate making sure that didn't happen. That would be Book 2: Text Update 59. The Bracer lied to him even though the Scroll would for sure work and when he was about to cast it dropped a house on him.

Come to think of it, that actually is evidence against what you said. It was very unusual for the bracer to work like that. If Fate was as all encompassing as you said, the bracer would have always acted like it did there: going through it's calculations and then switching to either a zero or a one. Every time anyone did anything, there would have been a Manos, Hands of Fate sound effect. Instead, it's unusual for Fate to intervene like that in the comic.

[-D-]

While it seems people have the ability to resist fate, pretty much everything about Wanda's story seems to be the lesson that those who resist fate are punished for it. Made to suffer until they are broken and no longer have the power or the will to resist.
That's crazy talk!

Look at Charlie! Look how happy he is! So happy he is! Look at other Carnymancers! They so happy! And successfull!

[Dragonus45]

Come to think of it, that actually is evidence against what you said. It was very unusual for the bracer to work like that. If Fate was as all encompassing as you said, the bracer would have always acted like it did there: going through it's calculations and then switching to either a zero or a one. Every time anyone did anything, there would have been a Manos, Hands of Fate sound effect. Instead, it's unusual for Fate to intervene like that in the comic.

Fate probably uses causality to make the Erf turn. Setting up situations with a total knowledge and understanding of how of the people involved think and allowing things to play out while just intervening directly when it needs to maintain the course.

[DigoDragon]

While it seems people have the ability to resist fate, pretty much everything about Wanda's story seems to be the lesson that those who resist fate are punished for it. Made to suffer until they are broken and no longer have the power or the will to resist.

This kind of sounds like life in general to me. Resisting "fate" is always so hard, but if you're like Parson and just stick to it, you can indeed change your fate.

[halfeye]

Fate probably uses causality to make the Erf turn. Setting up situations with a total knowledge and understanding of how of the people involved think and allowing things to play out while just intervening directly when it needs to maintain the course.
Fate only matters if you KNOW what its aim is.

Excluding that, you can do your best. Or not. Fate is what comes out of you behaving however you act, whatever comes out of you acting as you act.

There is only one past, so there is probably only one future, but it is utterly unknowable, which means what we chose matters, even if we know we can't change the future, because we don't know what it is that we're not changing.

[Anteros]

Well, I thought we were done but you edited in replies after telling me you weren't going to carry on the discussion anymore. But I agree, I don't see a point when you're going to ignore actual text in the actual comic so you can keep making your point.

Right, I changed my mind but I see now that I was right in the first place. Your attitude in the bolded bit is why I don't see a point debating with you by the way.



Except, that without it he would be attacked by casters, and probably killed. He did took it for his protection. Sure it has after effects, but this wasn't squarely on his shoulders.


He wasn't breaking their neutrality. Neutrality says don't enter any other side's portal. There is no rule about picking up stuff that fell out of an enemy portal. He was bending around the rules, but he wasn't breaking like in Book 2, where he entered enemy territory off turn.


Neither do you, for that matter. Let's look at: https://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_cha_chapter1_rule3



The moment those casters pulled out their wands and start firing, they lost any right to call themselves civilian. And this makes sense. A doctor operating on a patient is a civilian. A doctor that takes a gun and starts firing isn't a civilian. If it was another way, you'd have armies marching pretending to be Red Cross.


War crimes are a thing in our world. In Erfworld how do you determine culpability when your Warlord can essentially compel other units to do something, even if they disagree, unless they think it won't help side. In Erfworld compelling someone to fire at a Healomancer isn't a thing you can refuse. Not without a strong sense it would hurt your side.


In order because I'm too lazy to break up quote blocks today.

I'll concede that he needed troops in the MK for protection if he goes there. I'll not concede that he had to go there in the first place. Invading Jetstone through the portal was not necessary for his survival. Nor was going back to the MK after the battle.

He's breaking their neutrality by moving his army around in their territory in the first place. Literally every single action he takes in their territory is breaking their neutrality by definition.

Did you read the definition you posted? “combatants are persons who may take a direct part in hostilities, i.e., participate in the use of a weapon or a weapon-system in an indispensable function”, and specifies, therefore, that “persons who are members of the armed forces but do not have any combat mission, such as judges, government officials and blue-collar workers, are non-combatants”. You are only a "combatant" if you take part in actual "combat" I bolded the relevant bits for you.


If a terrorist or invading army attacks my home town, I am going to pull my gun and defend myself. I am still a civilian in this scenario. If you're not part of a standing army or police force, you're a civilian. That's what the word means. It doesn't mean "anyone who doesn't defend themself".

They do have conventions and treaties that they follow though. Such as MK neutrality and not assassinating someone under truce. Our protagonists just don't bother with them because they're terrible people. That doesn't mean they don't exist. Every other side (except Charlie) respects them.


People need to stop saying this, coming to a different opinion as to what is happening based on the evidence has nothing to do with reading two different comics. It is disrespectful, insulting and frankly just a way to call people stupid for disagreeing with you.

Agreed. The passive aggressive potshots on this forum are a huge problem. Although I am guilty of doing things like this as well, so I don't have a great deal of room to talk.

[Lethologica]

Fate probably uses causality to make the Erf turn. Setting up situations with a total knowledge and understanding of how of the people involved think and allowing things to play out while just intervening directly when it needs to maintain the course.
How can we distinguish "Fate didn't do anything or appear to care in any way about Event X, but X was still Fated because Fate knew it would happen" from "Event X was not Fated and had nothing to do with Fate"? Are there events in the comic where the former interpretation clearly prevails? How does this address the ways in which Fate's control of the events where it intervenes directly is still imperfect?

[Jasdoif]

How can we distinguish "Fate didn't do anything or appear to care in any way about Event X, but X was still Fated because Fate knew it would happen" from "Event X was not Fated and had nothing to do with Fate"?I think there's a better question in there: If "Fate didn't do anything or appear to care in any way about Event X, but X was still Fated because Fate knew it would happen" were in fact a thing, then everything would be Fated; and if everything is Fated, isn't "Fated" a meaningless descriptor?

[Lethologica]

I think there's a better question in there: If "Fate didn't do anything or appear to care in any way about Event X, but X was still Fated because Fate knew it would happen" were in fact a thing, then everything would be Fated; and if everything is Fated, isn't "Fated" a meaningless descriptor?
"Fated" would be a meaningless descriptor within the world-system; but "Everything is Fated" would be a meaningful description of the world-system. It would mean that the world-system is essentially predictable, rather than essentially unpredictable, or some mix of the two (some things are predictable and others aren't).

[Kornaki]

"Fated" would be a meaningless descriptor within the world-system; but "Everything is Fated" would be a meaningful description of the world-system. It would mean that the world-system is essentially predictable, rather than essentially unpredictable, or some mix of the two (some things are predictable and others aren't).

It's only predictable if you can tell what Fate intends to happen.

[Jasdoif]

"Fated" would be a meaningless descriptor within the world-system; but "Everything is Fated" would be a meaningful description of the world-system. It would mean that the world-system is essentially predictable, rather than essentially unpredictable, or some mix of the two (some things are predictable and others aren't).Except Fate would be unpredictable; if everything is Fated, then you can't make any predictions based on Fate because whatever happens is Fated: Coin comes up heads? Fate. Same coin came up tails instead? Also Fate. Unexplained magical effect excised the coin from existence before it could land on a side? Still Fate.

But the world's pre-determinism or lack thereof, or anywhere in-between, has little to do with Fate. There may well be a deterministic fate to the whole thing, but that's not what "Fate" is. As presented, Fate has specific intents, and the ability to influence events to any degree as necessary to fulfill those specific intents, or prevent them from being rendered impossible to fulfill. It seems to exist in the story primarily to justify pulling the rug out from under Parson whenever he's about to fulfill intents of his own.

[Lethologica]

It's only predictable if you can tell what Fate intends to happen.

Except Fate would be unpredictable; if everything is Fated, then you can't make any predictions based on Fate because whatever happens is Fated: Coin comes up heads? Fate. Same coin came up tails instead? Also Fate. Unexplained magical effect excised the coin from existence before it could land on a side? Still Fate.
Y'all are agreeing with me. Like I said, it's a meaningless descriptor of events within the world. Someone in Erf trying to predict events would not learn anything by knowing they were "Fated" in this paradigm. That's because "someone in Erf" wouldn't have access to Fate's knowledge.


But the world's pre-determinism or lack thereof, or anywhere in-between, has little to do with Fate. There may well be a deterministic fate to the whole thing, but that's not what "Fate" is. As presented, Fate has specific intents, and the ability to influence events to any degree as necessary to fulfill those specific intents, or prevent them from being rendered impossible to fulfill. It seems to exist in the story primarily to justify pulling the rug out from under Parson whenever he's about to fulfill intents of his own.
Again, I agree. I don't think Razade's interpretation of Fate is correct. But I also don't think it's meaningless.

[-D-]

I'll concede that he needed troops in the MK for protection if he goes there. I'll not concede that he had to go there in the first place. Invading Jetstone through the portal was not necessary for his survival. Nor was going back to the MK after the battle.

I think Parson stated in Book 1, that solution will be magical. While this meant something different in Book 1, I think the spell SPW, looked for a mind that could end War for good, using magic. So for his Fate to be fulfilled, he probably needs to know what all (or most) of Magic can do. I'm guessing he is going to need it.

Invading Jetstone was necessary to salvage the bad situation Maggie put him in. They needed his bonus, and it was only way imaginable. Don't forget in Book 1, they also cast him out as soon as he was conscious. And he invaded only AFTER they secured the portal, he wasn't going in there to assassinate their ruler covertly.



Did you read the definition you posted?
Yes. Have you? If your interpretation is true, what prevents say any country from masking its forces and attacking another army?

The defending army would:
A) Have to commit war crime and be senteced
B) Surrender or die.


If a terrorist or invading army attacks my home town, I am going to pull my gun and defend myself. I am still a civilian in this scenario. If you're not part of a standing army or police force, you're a civilian. That's what the word means. It doesn't mean "anyone who doesn't defend themself".

It seems you need to re reminded:

As is the case for civilians (see Rule 6), respect for non-combatants is contingent on their abstaining from taking a direct part in hostilities.
Moment those caster took their wands, they aren't civilians. Same as any civilian that takes a gun and starts shooting at the army. So you taking arms against a military will probably result in you getting 50 cal perforations and still wouldn't be considered a war crime.

First it's a flawed analogy. A better one would be if say Country A invaded N, and then country B appeared in N, started carpet bombing N and causing civilians to revolt and attack country A. If that happened Country A would have all the right to kill and end any militia attack it.

For one the army didn't attack your home town. They invaded your home town. They never attacked your town directly, only threatened to use force on those that tried to bar them from entering. Also they would be fully qualified to kill you on the spot, if you take out a gun "to defend yourself". As I noted with gun in hand you are a combatant and don't have any right as a civilian before the law (assuming you are caught).

Terrorist are a different thing, since they use violence to send a political message, with no respect for Geneva Convention. As such I assume they aren't governed by Geneva Convention. It's also clear that Parson/Parson's force isn't a terrorist. Sure he doesn't respect MK convention, but he didn't use violence to send a political message, but operate as a form of defense force for Parson.


They do have conventions and treaties that they follow though.
Citation needed. There is only unspoken convention. There is nothing like Geneva Convention in Erfworld. I.e. a singed document by major sides that regulates how war ought to be fought. What Erf has is equivalent of Knight's code from Medieval times. And those pressios conventions many Nobles don't upheld (see Lord Crush story, see any fighting Jillian participates) or pay much respect to (Don King, Book 1).

They also have an unspoken convention of Noble supremacy, Nobles enforce at tip of a sword. A supremacy some Casters share.


Such as MK neutrality and not assassinating someone under truce. Our protagonists just don't bother with them because they're terrible people. That doesn't mean they don't exist. Every other side (except Charlie) respects them.
Ha. If MK Casters respected their own neutrality then Ivan Poe wouldn't have did his CC portal change.

[Alex Knight]

Right, I changed my mind but I see now that I was right in the first place. Your attitude in the bolded bit is why I don't see a point debating with you by the way.

If a terrorist or invading army attacks my home town, I am going to pull my gun and defend myself. I am still a civilian in this scenario. If you're not part of a standing army or police force, you're a civilian. That's what the word means. It doesn't mean "anyone who doesn't defend themself".



Incorrect, actually. You would be a non-uniformed combatant and disqualified from the Geneva Convention protections.

[Lethologica]

First it's a flawed analogy. A better one would be if say Country A invaded N, and then country B appeared in N, started carpet bombing N and causing civilians to revolt and attack country A. If that happened Country A would have all the right to kill and end any militia attack it.

For one the army didn't attack your home town. They invaded your home town. They never attacked your town directly, only threatened to use force on those that tried to bar them from entering. Also they would be fully qualified to kill you on the spot, if you take out a gun "to defend yourself". As I noted with gun in hand you are a combatant and don't have any right as a civilian before the law (assuming you are caught).
You propose that an illegal occupying force is in the clear when it shoots people who violently resist the occupation? That's not a reading of the Geneva Conventions I'm familiar with. If you're not proposing an illegal occupation in the first place, I'm not sure how you legitimized Parson's invasion of the MK in this analogy.

That said, I think the 'war crimes' paradigm is pretty useless for evaluating Erfworld morality.

[-D-]

You propose that an illegal occupying force is in the clear when it shoots people who violently resist the occupation? That's not a reading of the Geneva Conventions I'm familiar with. If you're not proposing an illegal occupation in the first place, I'm not sure how you legitimized Parson's invasion of the MK in this analogy.

That said, I think the 'war crimes' paradigm is pretty useless for evaluating Erfworld morality.
Well as I said, Erfworld would need a Geneva Conventions.

Then it would need courts and courts would decide if what Parson did was legal. In my understanding, Parson's illegal occupation would be considered an act of aggression and he would have to pay reparations, but he wouldn't be considered guilty for killing violent insurgency. So probably both are in the wrong.

I don't want to trip no politics rules, but what Russia in Crimea was a similar event, were they ever accused of a war crime? I knew there were sanctions because of that, but there was no tribunal for war crimes, correct?

--------------------------------------

I agree. It's hard to have warcrimes when your foes heal up every night and there are enemies that can reuse their dead forces, or double their own forces or even prevent death. Any military strategist would have to go for the Healomancer/Croakamancer/Dittomancer or face defeat.

[-D-]

In other news, is this comic getting later and later?

[Jasdoif]

I don't think Razade's interpretation of Fate is correct. But I also don't think it's meaningless.I'm not sure I'm being clear at what I'm trying to get at. If everything is Fated, directly or not, then everything is Fated. Including wrong predictions as to what's Fated: If somehow a bunch of Predictamancers pinged Fate on a certain event, and the opposite of what they were all "told" would happen happened...they were still Fated to get Fate wrong. There is literally no scenario where something that happens is not Fated.

There would be no meaning in saying that something happened because it was Fated, since the simple fact that it happened means it was Fated; and there would be no meaning in saying that something will happen because it was Fated, because Fate "lying" would itself be Fated. If Fate is responsible for everything, then Fate means nothing. Fate would be the living embodiment of retroactive continuity.

And as we already know, retconjuration isn't Fate magic (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/40), so that can't be what Fate is :smalltongue:

[halfeye]

If a terrorist or invading army attacks my home town, I am going to pull my gun and defend myself. I am still a civilian in this scenario.
Nope. You are a terrorist in that scenario. If someone invades and you volunteer, you become part of the military. If you just grab a gun and start shooting, you are not military, you are a partisan/terrorist and if you are caught you can be shot, or at least that's how it was, in WW1 and WW2.

Oops, late response.

[Lethologica]

I'm not sure I'm being clear at what I'm trying to get at. If everything is Fated, directly or not, then everything is Fated. Including wrong predictions as to what's Fated: If somehow a bunch of Predictamancers pinged Fate on a certain event, and the opposite of what they were all "told" would happen happened...they were still Fated to get Fate wrong. There is literally no scenario where something that happens is not Fated.

There would be no meaning in saying that something happened because it was Fated, since the simple fact that it happened means it was Fated; and there would be no meaning in saying that something will happen because it was Fated, because Fate "lying" would itself be Fated. If Fate is responsible for everything, then Fate means nothing. Fate would be the living embodiment of retroactive continuity.

And as we already know, retconjuration isn't Fate magic (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/40), so that can't be what Fate is :smalltongue:
We agree on this. I'm not sure what the disagreement is, if there is one, but it's probably not worth teasing out.


Nope. You are a terrorist in that scenario. If someone invades and you volunteer, you become part of the military. If you just grab a gun and start shooting, you are not military, you are a partizan/terrorist and if you are caught you can be shot, or at least that's how it was, in WW1 and WW2.
The conventions being discussed were signed after WWII ended.

[halfeye]

We agree on this. I'm not sure what the disagreement is, if there is one, but it's probably not worth teasing out.


The conventions being discussed were signed after WWII ended.
The Geneva conventions were in place long before WW1, there may have been addenda since then.

[Lethologica]

The Geneva conventions were in place long before WW1, there may have been addenda since then.
There have been, but thanks for correcting me; I was being sloppy. That said, much of the content of the treaties, especially regarding civilians on the battlefield and the duties of occupying powers, comes from the 1949 convention.

[eschmenk]

New Comic (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/145)

Lots of words.

That looks like Caesar, but why would he be flying back?

Maybe he had to fly out to deal with the attack on Aqua Velva and is flying back now?

[Aquillion]

New Comic (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/145)

Lots of words.

That looks like Caesar, but why would he be flying back?

Maybe he had to fly out to deal with the attack on Aqua Velva and is flying back now?
It's possible Caesar demanded to be the one to interrogate them, and the Don couldn't come up with a reason to say no.

Caesar interrogating them is generally good news for them, because he (at best) doesn't care about Royalism, and possibly actively hates it. If he specifically demanded to be the one to interrogate them, it could be because he wants to cut a deal with GK, or at least to leave the door open to it, and recognizes that the Don would get too emotional about it if anyone else handled it. Caesar is also one of the few people in the side with enough clout to stand up to the Don on something like that.

[eschmenk]

It's possible Caesar demanded to be the one to interrogate them, and the Don couldn't come up with a reason to say no.

Caesar interrogating them is generally good news for them, because he (at best) doesn't care about Royalism, and possibly actively hates it. If he specifically demanded to be the one to interrogate them, it could be because he wants to cut a deal with GK, or at least to leave the door open to it, and recognizes that the Don would get too emotional about it if anyone else handled it. Caesar is also one of the few people in the side with enough clout to stand up to the Don on something like that.

Yes, but I actually meant, "Why wasn't Caesar already there?" The last time we saw him, he was. I had forgotten how long ago that was, though. Anyway, I'm curious about what he was doing.

As Chief Warlord, Caesar would be the person best able to evaluate any military aspect, so that would be a good excuse for him to be there during any interrogation. Maybe Don would even realized that without Caesar having to say anything.

Since Bunny is in love with Caesar and Caesar isn't all that loyal to Don, I could even imagine that Don could be completely in the dark about what's going on, but I doubt it. Still, Jack's stories about Jillian may have undermined what little faith Caesar and other people still have in Don's judgement.

[DigoDragon]

Yeah, lots of words. Can't wait for Monday's update... assuming it's the next part to this one.

[Anteros]

Well parts of that were particularly relevant to the conversation at hand.

[Felius]

Sigh... I love Erfworld and all, but really, they really need to reduce the amount of (wall of) text updates. It feels like it's being used as a crutch, and not even any close to well at that. Mind you, I'm not a fan of "decompressed comics" either, but right now Erfworld feels like a great story being told in "mediocrely written Light Novel" format.

Just had to vent a bit about it, with the recent continual text updates...

[Kornaki]

Any chance Caesar can just turn Parson into a vampire spawn? Cut out the need for the turnamancet?

[Narkis]

Not likely. We haven't seen any indication about that in the comic, and the vampire's blood sucking has already been mentioned as an intimidation tactic.

And Ceasar looks awesome in the last panel. Very... Overlord-y. :smalltongue:

[Killer Angel]

Vampires should excel in spy games. You know, The Masquerade, and all that jazz...

[guttering flame]

Does Transilvito have a Brutus warlord? Or the king's upcoming heir will be called that?

If I was Parson, my advise to Ceasar would be to change his name to Augustus.

(Unless Ceasar is a reference to Renaissance-Ceasar?)

[-D-]

Well parts of that were particularly relevant to the conversation at hand.
Attacking under truce. Such a convention, much abiding. It seems putting your pinky up when drinking tea is a stronger.


Sigh... I love Erfworld and all, but really, they really need to reduce the amount of (wall of) text updates. It feels like it's being used as a crutch, and not even any close to well at that.

Just had to vent a bit about it, with the recent continual text updates...
I feel ya. I felt that ever since Lauri came on board. With such superb art and coloring, you can really see in stark contrast how bad writing is. Book 3 is so far my least favorite.

Every time Rob posts a text wall, pacing gets hit in the kneecaps.

[Jasdoif]

We agree on this. I'm not sure what the disagreement is, if there is one, but it's probably not worth teasing out.Probably some fine point between "interpretation of Fate that is meaningless" and "interpretation of Fate that, if accurate, makes Fate meaningless". But since we're already on the same page, I agree there's no distinction to be drawn.


In the interests of the original topic....I think the issue is rather the opposite: There's a very narrow band where Fate shoves the things it has an interest in. It's most prevalent with Parson, but I've also seen the pattern with Jillian, Wanda, Lilith, Stanley....: They get shoved into odds that should be insurmountable. They execute a plan that works against the odds anyway, just for things to suddenly turn against them when their failure becomes improbable. And then some previously-unknown or external factor gets involved to turn the failure into a narrow victory, at a personal cost. Fate seems intent on throwing them through dangerous circumstances intact, but stops them from personally coming out ahead in the aftermath.

That's not just a simple nebulous force, tweaking numbers in a beneficial fashion. It's not even a stretch that Jojo personifies Fate, as an entity that can be negotiated with (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/73). But therein lies the complication: We effectively have another character, with an interest in preserving its toys while also keeping those toys from establishing independence, that can cause precise circumstances wherever it sees fit. Entire disciplines of magic are dedicated to dealing with it, yet we've never actually "met" this Fate character...who really seems to be the deciding factor in any conflicts it chooses to get involved with, without regard to whatever the people directly in the conflict might want to say about it.

It worked out fine in Book 1. Because it makes sense that a spell capable of bringing someone into another reality would enforce the "compelled to obey Ruler" aspect of that reality to get Parson involved, the whole point of the coalition was to crush Gobwin Knob with numbers so the odds of unlucky breaks were already high, and Parson ultimately did come up with Operation Zombvolcano on his own. From then on though, where Fate drops debris or raises protective bubbles or whatever...well, it seems Erfworld is currently at its most interesting as a setting for other stories, because the main story centers on characters that Fate routinely deprives of the costs and benefits of their actions. The comic even talks about this sort of thing itself (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/74).

Maybe this is all a big setup for a huge sundering of Fate itself down the road. Maybe the direct intervention of Fate is supposed to cut down on the time spent between important/interesting scenes, compared to setting up more natural explanations (a dangerous tradeoff if you ask me). Maybe a force capable of interfering with any sequence of events serves as the plot equivalent of a get-out-of-jail-free card. Maybe it simply isn't as big a deal as it looks like. I can't say. What I can say, is that it's really hard to fault anyone for feeling that Fate undercuts the story by undercutting the characters in the story.

[Landis963]

Does Transilvito have a Brutus warlord? Or the king's upcoming heir will be called that?

If I was Parson, my advise to Ceasar would be to change his name to Augustus.

(Unless Ceasar is a reference to Renaissance-Ceasar?)

Caesar Borgata is undoubtedly a reference to Cesare Borgia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesare_Borgia) (Otherwise known as the Big Bad of AC: Brotherhood).

[Anteros]

Attacking under truce. Such a convention, much abiding. It seems putting your pinky up when drinking tea is a stronger.



I pretty much feel like Rob deliberately put that in to deflect a common criticism of how crappy a person Parson is, but whatever. If he says it's incredibly common in Erfworld despite all previous indications of other sides being horrified by their behavior then he's the creator and we'll roll with it.

[Douglas]

I pretty much feel like Rob deliberately put that in to deflect a common criticism of how crappy a person Parson is, but whatever. If he says it's incredibly common in Erfworld despite all previous indications of other sides being horrified by their behavior then he's the creator and we'll roll with it.
Erfworld rulers engaging in rampant hypocrisy on the subject would not surprise me. The distinction between "a clever tactic" and "a despicable honorless betrayal" could all too easily be in who did it, not in what was done.