Becoming an Arcane Dweomerkeeper with no class dip

[Pippin]

Requirements
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks , Spellcraft (8 ranks)
Feats: Any item creation feat and any metamagic feat.
Spells: Ability to cast arcane and divine spells.
Domain: Magic.
Special: The candidate must have created at least one magic item, whether of a permanent nature or not.

What's the safest way for a Wizard to go Dweomerkeeper without a class dip, and without DM fiat? In terms of feats I suppose.

Southern Magician enables you to cast divine spells, but it also requires you to be a Mulan human apparently. That might not be ideal.
Arcane Disciple may or may not grant you the Magic Domain itself, I'm not sure.
I'd also be curious to know if there are ways to create a magic item without burning a feat slot for a item creation feat.

[EdRed]

A venerable Dragonwrought Kobold qualifies for Singer of Concordance (He's a dragon and the PrC requires Dragonblood) and can thereby acquire the Magic Domain with 2 Levels in this fullcaster PrC.

You can get access to divine orisons via a fest chain (3 feats, i think) from Dragon Mag. Or hope that your DM allows you to take southern magician anyway.

Edit: Regarding the magic item. A scroll is a magic item if i am not mistaken and if you enter as a wizard you get Scribe Scroll anyway, unless you trade it away. Just create a cheap scroll and it should of arguably suffice.

[Malroth]

it already requires an item creation feat why not just use the one you had to take anyway

[Belkarseviltwin]

it already requires an item creation feat why not just use the one you had to take anyway

Because Scribe Scroll is an item creation feat which Wizards get as a bonus feat at first level, so they meet that requirement without needing to take another one.

I don't think Arcane Disciple (Magic) would work for granting you the Magic domain. Adding the spells to your list isn't the same as giving you the domain- Arcane Disciple doesn't give you the granted power.

[Darrin]

Touchstone feat (Sandstorm) gives you several divine SLAs, but I'm fuzzy on whether that counts.

[Malroth]

Special: The candidate must have created at least one magic item, whether of a permanent nature or not.

A Scroll is a magic item and would count for the prereqs.

[Pippin]

Thanks for the Scribe Scroll tip!


I don't think Arcane Disciple (Magic) would work for granting you the Magic domain. Adding the spells to your list isn't the same as giving you the domain- Arcane Disciple doesn't give you the granted power.
Oh, so that's what I feared. I think I very vaguely remember the existence of a feat that would grant you the power associated to the Domain, but not the spells (can't remember the name though). The opposite of Arcane Disciple, kind of. Would I need to take both feats to fulfill this prereq?


Touchstone feat (Sandstorm) gives you several divine SLAs, but I'm fuzzy on whether that counts.
'fraid not, you wouldn't be casting divine spells then =(

[Kelb_Panthera]

Outside of southern magician, I don't think there's any way to cast both arcane and divine spells without multiclassing. 2 levels in singer of concordance from races of the dragon will get you the magic domain and the requirements are pretty easy since you've got to get divine casting anyway. Mulan silverbrow human isn't such a bad race choice.

[Necroticplague]

The capstone for Rainbow Servant lets you cast divine spells, and it's a full-casting-progression PRC. It also gives you several domains. No good ones, and none of them magic, though. However, Domain Droughts give you a domain (explicitly the whole domain, not just spells or granted power) for 24 hours. So pick up a Domain Drought (Magic), progress your Wizard casting with Rainbow Servant, and you should be good to go.

[ShurikVch]

Imbue with Spell Ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/imbueWithSpellAbility.htm) will allow you to cast divine spells

Domain Granted Power from Complete Champion may give you access to domain

[Troacctid]

Try Sha'ir instead of Wizard. Native arcane and divine casting.

Creating a magic item without a feat is easy--just make a bonded magic item using the rules from Dungeon Master's Guide II.

[Cosi]

Outside of southern magician, I don't think there's any way to cast both arcane and divine spells without multiclassing.

As pointed out, imbue with spell ability and Rainbow Servant work. anyspell (arguably) works in the opposite direction.


The capstone for Rainbow Servant lets you cast divine spells, and it's a full-casting-progression PRC. It also gives you several domains. No good ones, and none of them magic, though.

Just worship Mystra (or any deity with the Magic domain), then use substitute domain to get Magic in place of Air or Good.

Or take a level of Contemplative.

[Pippin]

The capstone for Rainbow Servant lets you cast divine spells, and it's a full-casting-progression PRC. It also gives you several domains. No good ones, and none of them magic, though. However, Domain Droughts give you a domain (explicitly the whole domain, not just spells or granted power) for 24 hours. So pick up a Domain Drought (Magic), progress your Wizard casting with Rainbow Servant, and you should be good to go.
Not that it's a bad plan, but I'm much more interested in taking 10 levels in Dweomerkeeper than Rainbow Servant. So thanks, it works, but I can't use this solution.


Imbue with Spell Ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/imbueWithSpellAbility.htm) will allow you to cast divine spells

Domain Granted Power from Complete Champion may give you access to domain
Owow x2.

Thanks for pointing out Imbue with Spell Ability, it's really interesting. I don't even have to use the spells I get, I can cast divine spells so I'm good to go.

Also thanks for pointing out Domain Granted Power. Technically, is that enough or should I arrange to get the spells too with Arcane Disciple?

[Cosi]

Also thanks for pointing out Domain Granted Power. Technically, is that enough or should I arrange to get the spells too with Arcane Disciple?

By strict RAW, I don't think it helps. Getting the granted power isn't getting the domain, and neither is getting the spells. Getting the domain is getting the domain, getting the parts of the domain isn't (in the same way that getting a +4 bonus to initiative from an item is not equivalent to getting Improved Initiative as a feat). I think you need to get the domain itself (perhaps from Contemplative or another PrC).

[ShurikVch]

By strict RAW, I don't think it helps. Getting the granted power isn't getting the domain, and neither is getting the spells. Getting the domain is getting the domain, getting the parts of the domain isn't (in the same way that getting a +4 bonus to initiative from an item is not equivalent to getting Improved Initiative as a feat). I think you need to get the domain itself (perhaps from Contemplative or another PrC).Domain (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_domain&alpha=):
A granted power and a set of nine divine spells (one each of 1st through 9th level) themed around a particular concept and associated with one or more deities.Thus, domain is domain spells + granted power
(That is, unless DM disagree...)

[Belkarseviltwin]

I'm now thinking of another way to do this.

Divine Oracle can be entered from Wizard, though it requires wasting a feat on Skill Focus: Knowledge (Religion). It has 10/10 spellcasting advancement for any class, and grants a domain (the Oracle domain) at first level.

You then need to find a way to cast Substitute Domain. Imbue with Spell Ability doesn't work- it's restricted to abjuration, divination and conjuration (healing). Limited Wish works but is somewhat overkill. Any other ideas?

Incidentally, Southern Magician doesn't work. Per 3.5 faq:

Can a wizard with the Southern Magician feat qualify for prestige classes that require you to be able to cast a divine spell?
The Southern Magician feat does not allow you to cast divine spells per se. It only allows you to change the spells into divine spells once they have been cast. Thus, you won’t qualify for prestige classes that require you to be able to cast a divine spell. The Southern Magician feat only gives the bonuses specifically listed in the feat’s description.

[Cosi]

You then need to find a way to cast Substitute Domain. Imbue with Spell Ability doesn't work- it's restricted to abjuration, divination and conjuration (healing). Limited Wish works but is somewhat overkill. Any other ideas?

UMD a wand? Maybe buy a custom item?

[Necroticplague]

Incidentally, Southern Magician doesn't work. Per 3.5 faq:

FAQ isn't raw, and is frequently wrong. This is one such case.

[Kelb_Panthera]

As pointed out, imbue with spell ability and Rainbow Servant work.

Rainbow servant requires a ten level investment, that's not really useful for meeting prerequisites. Where are you going to find a cleric who's willing to perrmanently give up spell slots for imbue spell ability? Nevermind the staggering vulnerability of having your class choice dependent on somebody else choosing not to dismiss one of your prerequisites.

Those may work, technically, but they're not very good options.

[Cosi]

Where are you going to find a cleric who's willing to perrmanently give up spell slots for imbue spell ability? Nevermind the staggering vulnerability of having your class choice dependent on somebody else choosing not to dismiss one of your prerequisites.

What? You only need it to take the first level.

[Kelb_Panthera]

What? You only need it to take the first level.

That's still a 4th level and a 1st level spell. That doesn't hurt much for a 13th level or higher caster but it's devestating for anyone below 10th level and it stings pretty bad at 11 and 12. The higher its level the harder a character of any stripe is to find. In any case, it still leaves you utterly beholden to the caster. He can revoke his spell, the ability to cast divine magic, and anything you have that's dependent on such as a standard action.

[Beheld]

That's still a 4th level and a 1st level spell. That doesn't hurt much for a 13th level or higher caster but it's devestating for anyone below 10th level and it stings pretty bad at 11 and 12. The higher its level the harder a character of any stripe is to find. In any case, it still leaves you utterly beholden to the caster. He can revoke his spell, the ability to cast divine magic, and anything you have that's dependent on such as a standard action.

Except that you totally don't need to worry about that, because:

1) You don't need to keep meeting the pre-reqs.

2) You start meeting the pre-reqs yourself pretty soon.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Except that you totally don't need to worry about that, because:

1) You don't need to keep meeting the pre-reqs.

This is a point that's hotly debated. Given that, it's better to ere on the side of caution.


2) You start meeting the pre-reqs yourself pretty soon.

How? The class never grants you any ability related to turning arcane spells into divine ones. Neither does it give any direct ability to cast divine spells independent of your arcane casting track. So far as I can see, this is entirely false.

[Cosi]

This is a point that's hotly debated. Given that, it's better to ere on the side of caution.

The DMG says that prerequisites are required to take the first level of the class. The only thing that is "hotly debated" is whether those rules apply to PrCs in Complete Arcane and Complete Warrior, where someone made a copy/paste error.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The DMG says that prerequisites are required to take the first level of the class. The only thing that is "hotly debated" is whether those rules apply to PrCs in Complete Arcane and Complete Warrior, where someone made a copy/paste error.

No sense rehashing the debate again here. That's why I left it at that instead of going into any detail.

[Cosi]

No sense rehashing the debate again here. That's why I left it at that instead of going into any detail.

So, instead of saying "RAW says X", you decided that it was a better plan to act like there was any debate at all as to whether books say the things they say? And that seems totally reasonable to you?

[Kelb_Panthera]

So, instead of saying "RAW says X", you decided that it was a better plan to act like there was any debate at all as to whether books say the things they say? And that seems totally reasonable to you?

It's a debate that's been had over and over again and no general consensus has ever been reached. I'm not interested in having it again and it would be off-topic for the thread.

Both sides have reasonable arguments in every incarnation I've seen of the debate, what the RAW says is -not- crystal clear, and you can't say with certainty which way any particular DM will take it. If you want to do it over again, instead of just searching the forum for one of the existing threads on the topic, make a separate thread.

[Beheld]

This is a point that's hotly debated. Given that, it's better to ere on the side of caution.

I prefer to "err" on the side of being correct.


How? The class never grants you any ability related to turning arcane spells into divine ones. Neither does it give any direct ability to cast divine spells independent of your arcane casting track. So far as I can see, this is entirely false.

Uh... Imbue with Spell Ability doesn't grant the Magic Domain at all ever, so it seemed pretty clear to me that we were talking about using Imbue Spell Ability to qualify Rainbow Servant, and then use Rainbow Servants Domains to convert them into the Magic domain and also be able to cast Divine Spells. Since Rainbow Servant's pre-reqs can be met by leveling, you meat them yourself.

I could be wrong, but I don't know why anyone would suggest that a Wizard with Imbue Spell Ability would count as having the Magic or Spell Domain.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I prefer to "err" on the side of being correct.

I prefer not to waste time on arguing over something that cannot be definitively called one way or the other because somebody at WotC sucks at proofreading and I'm not so arrogant as to think my opinion on the matter is absolutely correct.


Uh... Imbue with Spell Ability doesn't grant the Magic Domain at all ever, so it seemed pretty clear to me that we were talking about using Imbue Spell Ability to qualify Rainbow Servant, and then use Rainbow Servants Domains to convert them into the Magic domain and also be able to cast Divine Spells. Since Rainbow Servant's pre-reqs can be met by leveling, you meat them yourself.

I could be wrong, but I don't know why anyone would suggest that a Wizard with Imbue Spell Ability would count as having the Magic or Spell Domain.

You don't need imbue with spell ability to qualify for rainbow servant. It's an arcane prestige class to begin with. We're talking about qualifying for dweomerkeeper which requires that you be able to cast both arcane and divine spells.

[Beheld]

You don't need imbue with spell ability to qualify for rainbow servant. It's an arcane prestige class to begin with. We're talking about qualifying for dweomerkeeper which requires that you be able to cast both arcane and divine spells.

1) You need it (or some other method) to qualify for it early.

2) DweomerKeeper requires you to have the Magic domain. Imbue with Spell Ability does not grant the Magic domain. Hence why someone suggested going into Rainbow Servant and using the domains granted to get the Magic domain.

[Kelb_Panthera]

1) You need it (or some other method) to qualify for it early.

2) DweomerKeeper requires you to have the Magic domain. Imbue with Spell Ability does not grant the Magic domain. Hence why someone suggested going into Rainbow Servant and using the domains granted to get the Magic domain.

1) Really? Which of these
Requirements

Alignment: Any nonevil and nonchaotic

Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks

Spells: Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells.
Special: Must find the hidden jungle temples of the couatls.

does imbue with spell ability help you reach early?

2) Rainbow servant doesn't grant the magic domain.

[Necroticplague]

1) You need it (or some other method) to qualify for it early.

2) DweomerKeeper requires you to have the Magic domain. Imbue with Spell Ability does not grant the Magic domain. Hence why someone suggested going into Rainbow Servant and using the domains granted to get the Magic domain.

Actually, my suggestion had nothing to do with the domains granted by rainbow servant. it was merely an amusing side-note that it gave us domains, just not the right ones. The way I actually suggested getting the Magic domain was by drinking a Domain Drought, which can give a domain to anyone, at least temporarily.

Somehow relevant to Rainbow Servant, Eldritch Corruption can fast-track you in to enter at level 2. However, that won't help for this build, because the relevant part would still come online at ECL 11, 1 short of being able to take Dweomerkeeper 10.

[Pippin]

So


Getting divine spells thanks to the Imbue with Spell Ability spell
Getting the domain power thanks to the Domain Granted Power ACF
Getting the domain spells thanks to the Arcane Disciple feat
Crafting a magical item thanks to the Scribe Scroll feat


I think we've found the easiest way to become an arcane Dweomerkeeper without any class dip, haven't we?

[Troacctid]

I'm not sure "easy" is the word I'd use.

[Pippin]

I have to ask though. Is there really no feat that could grant you a domain's power? I could have sworn there was, somewhere...

[Necroticplague]

I have to ask though. Is there really no feat that could grant you a domain's power? I could have sworn there was, somewhere...

Touchstone and Planar Touchstone. I think one of them (my brain says "catalogue of enlightment", not sure on this one) can give you a domain's power. Rustier than the titanic, might just give the whole domain.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Touchstone and Planar Touchstone. I think one of them (my brain says "catalogue of enlightment", not sure on this one) can give you a domain's power. Rustier than the titanic, might just give the whole domain.

It's planar touchstone (catalogues of enlightenment). If you can activate the higher order power of the site, you also get access to the domain's spells in a very limited fashion.

[Melcar]

What's the safest way for a Wizard to go Dweomerkeeper without a class dip, and without DM fiat? In terms of feats I suppose.

Southern Magician enables you to cast divine spells, but it also requires you to be a Mulan human apparently. That might not be ideal.
Arcane Disciple may or may not grant you the Magic Domain itself, I'm not sure.
I'd also be curious to know if there are ways to create a magic item without burning a feat slot for a item creation feat.

The Lady’s Acadamy in Silverymoon houses magic laboratories/ workshops which applies or gives the appropriate items creations feat pertaining to the workshop. This would of course require some actual roleplaying and at least playing in Forgotten Realms. One could naturally just say that any magic academy in any setting had these laboratories.

In Races of Stone, there are some forges, that also give item creation feats. They also give a price. Since the forges are immovable I would severely increase the price for wearable item.

[Sian]

a Sha'ir getting a Domain (no matter which and how), and taking Heretic of the Faith (Powers of Faerun) which, among the things it do, makes it possible to replace your domain with any other domain

Sha'ir 5 / Divine Oracle 1 with Heretic of the Faith as 6th level feat should be ale to do it without major issues, if you play Human or run with flaws

[Kraken]

Complete Champion gives wizards the option of taking a domain power at 5th level instead of a feat. Combine that with arcane disciple for spell access, and you've got a decent argument for "having" the magic domain, because at that point entering a prestige class that grants you the magic domain (singer of concordance or whatever) won't give you anything more.

[Pippin]

Well thanks. That touchstone stuff is interesting. I thought there was a feat stating something along the lines of "Choose 1 domain. You can now use that domain's power as if you had it." but I guess I was thinking wrong ^^,

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well thanks. That touchstone stuff is interesting. I thought there was a feat stating something along the lines of "Choose 1 domain. You can now use that domain's power as if you had it." but I guess I was thinking wrong ^^,

That's planar touchstone (catalogues of enlightenment) in a nutshell. You don't actually have to go to the catalogues to gain the lesser power, just to activate the higher order power, IIRC.

[Rhedyn]

What's the safest way for a Wizard to go Dweomerkeeper without a class dip, and without DM fiat? In terms of feats I suppose.

Southern Magician enables you to cast divine spells, but it also requires you to be a Mulan human apparently. That might not be ideal.
Arcane Disciple may or may not grant you the Magic Domain itself, I'm not sure.
I'd also be curious to know if there are ways to create a magic item without burning a feat slot for a item creation feat.
Paizo use to have an old ruling that SLAs counted as being able to cast those spells. You could see if your DM would buy that for 3.5

[atemu1234]

Contemplative gets you unspecified domains, best route to go for one of those, though the prerequisites might be a little difficult.

[Pippin]

Contemplative gets you unspecified domains, best route to go for one of those, though the prerequisites might be a little difficult.
Sadly Contemplatives go +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class, so you'd lose a Wizard level. What you could do though is taking the first level of Rainbow Servant, and find a way to use Substitute Domain.

I'm afraid there's no easy way to gain access to "a Domain of your choice"... =(