What if there were no class skills?

[TheCrowing1432]

Meaning every class could take any skill they wanted so long as they had the skill points for it.

Your fighter could learn to sneak around.

Your wizard could become a smooth talker without casting spells.

Your barbarian could learn about The Planes.


Do you think the game would be more balanced? Less?

[Eloel]

Mind = Blown

[Flickerdart]

The truth is, it wouldn't matter. Most classes won't be good at things even if they could buy ranks - a fighter can't sneak because he wears a ton of metal on his shoulders, a wizard won't be a smooth talker because he dumps Charisma, etc. Skills are also pretty weak, so it doesn't really matter if everyone has access to them equally. Fans of the rogue might complain that their precious role protection is being threatened, but that's about it.

What this change would do is make it much easier to meet pre-requisites to prestige classes.

[Red Fel]

Meaning every class could take any skill they wanted so long as they had the skill points for it.

Your fighter could learn to sneak around.

Your wizard could become a smooth talker without casting spells.

Your barbarian could learn about The Planes.


Do you think the game would be more balanced? Less?

You'd... Have something like PF has?

First off, let's look at what, specifically, "class skills" are.

In D&D 3.5, "class skills" are purchased 1 rank per point, with a cap of character level +3. "Cross-class skills" are those skills not listed as class skills; they are purchased at 1 rank per 2 points (1/2 rank per point), with a cap of 1/2 your class skill cap. So, while nothing stops your Barbarian from taking Knowledge (the planes), there is a harsh upper limit imposed by the system.

PF does away with that. Anyone can invest points in any skill, with a cap of your HD. "Class skills" simply means that, if you have invested any skill points in that particular skill, you gain a +3 bonus to that skill. Boom, easy. Your Fighter can take Stealth, your Wizard can take Diplomacy, and your Barbarian can take Knowledge (planes) without penalty. Easy.

So, you tell me - is PF balanced?

[Eloel]

So, you tell me - is PF balanced?
Balanced, no.
More balanced, yes.

[Cosi]

Skills aren't good enough for this to do anything. Even the vaunted Diplomacy requires significant investment to make a good Diplomancer.

As Flickerdart points out, it basically just makes PrCs better. For example, you can get into Unseen Seer slightly easier.

[TheCrowing1432]

You'd... Have something like PF has?

First off, let's look at what, specifically, "class skills" are.

In D&D 3.5, "class skills" are purchased 1 rank per point, with a cap of character level +3. "Cross-class skills" are those skills not listed as class skills; they are purchased at 1 rank per 2 points (1/2 rank per point), with a cap of 1/2 your class skill cap. So, while nothing stops your Barbarian from taking Knowledge (the planes), there is a harsh upper limit imposed by the system.

PF does away with that. Anyone can invest points in any skill, with a cap of your HD. "Class skills" simply means that, if you have invested any skill points in that particular skill, you gain a +3 bonus to that skill. Boom, easy. Your Fighter can take Stealth, your Wizard can take Diplomacy, and your Barbarian can take Knowledge (planes) without penalty. Easy.

So, you tell me - is PF balanced?

To be perfectly honest, Ive never played Pathfinder and am not intimately familiar with its differences to 3.5.

[AmberVael]

Do you think the game would be more balanced? Less?

Very little changes. Mostly, it simplifies things without much affecting balance.

[Cosi]

To be perfectly honest, Ive never played Pathfinder and am not intimately familiar with its differences to 3.5.

Mostly, it's the same as 3e, except:

1. The most egregiously broken spells are now fixed (polymorph, wish, etc). Well, more gone than fixed, but whatever.
2. Everything is like a million times more fiddly. You get more feats (which are still mostly meaningless), you pick "archetypes" (which allow you to swap class features around), and there are traits.
3. All the material is on an easy to access wiki.

The game balance is mostly not better, though there are a bunch of new classes. Some of those (most of the 6th level casters, 9th level casters like the Arcanist) are pretty good.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Didn't we just do this thread recently? As I recall there were two main viewpoints:

"Meh, doesn't really change anything."
"OMG YOU JUST MADE THE ROGUE WORTHLESS"

[LordOfCain]

More versatility but I would just let tier three and below not have class skills and tier two and one have class skills.

[Cosi]

More versatility but I would just let tier three and below not have class skills and tier two and one have class skills.

You would think it was possible to have a discussion about anything even tangentially related to game balance without someone mentioning the tiers.

Apparently, this is not the case.

That said, there is no reason to do that. The power shift from getting extra class skills is nonexistent, and even the cases where you can qualify for new PrCs, those are generally not as good as the ones you qualified for before (i.e. Unseen Seer v. Incantatrix). The complexity gain for doing it by tier is not getting you any meaningful balance improvement.

[Kraken]

Mostly a meaningless change, classes that didn't have listen/spot before would probably be the most affected.

[Troacctid]

You would basically be Pathfinder.

It would reduce the appeal of classes with lots of class skills and make prestige class requirements easier to meet. Players would be less likely to take the skills that are commonly associated with their class's archetype.

[Darth Ultron]

I don't think it would effect balance much. But it would effect the uniqueness of each class and lead down the slippery slope of just having a character with no class.

[LTwerewolf]

As was said in the other thread, it's mostly a pointless change that helps casters more than the intended.

[Milo v3]

Prefer the OP's idea over 3.5e's class skills, prefer PF's class skills over OP's idea.

[TheBrassDuke]

I don't think it would effect balance much. But it would effect the uniqueness of each class and lead down the slippery slope of just having a character with no class.

The "uniqueness"?


Srd Sorcerer

The sorcerer’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).

Okay, let's take a look at this example. As a sorcerer, your primary ability score is going to be Cha, for casting purposes and the power to influence others. I see one skill that helps with the latter. You'd think the sorcerer is unique enough with his abilities that he'd be able to use Diplomacy, or even Intimidate...maybe perform? Charismatic folks are charismatic, no? Apparently not.

That isn't unique. It's sad.

Okay, so on to my point. Allowing us to fiddle with skills, while not affecting game balance, would probably make our characters more unique. A sorcerer capable of talking down an enemy better than a paladin? That sounds a bit more realistic...not every bad guy should blush at the white knight's use of flowery words, but I'm damn sure a manipulative sorcerer could tear them apart.

Also, I do find it offensive the PHB naturally assumes all sorcerers are liars. I'd do away with Bluff for Sense Motive (I know it's not Cha-based) or something more unique any day. I don't need it. The thief/rogue will be doing all our BS, I'm sure. >_>

Edit: Oh. And why can't my living magic man have Use Magic Device?

I would also like to thank Red Fel for showing up. Your words are like sharp knives, cleaving their way through chewy, buttery nonsense.

[Necroticplague]

Edit: Oh. And why can't my living magic man have Use Magic Device?


Because he's living magic. Magic within his ability merely bends before him without him really needing to try (he can activate scrolls and wands of the right type without a umd check). Thus, he has little need to study how magic works, so magic that lies without his ability is something he has little idea about.


Back to the main topic: Not much changes. Most skills aren't very reliable or significant enough to matter in the first place. Here's a another thread on the topic from not too far back (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477526-Class-Skills-What-s-the-point&highlight=skill). I hold that class skills are an annoying piece of mechanics made to try and enforce overly-specific stereotypes, and should go die in a fire, along with the multiclass penalties, most prerequisites, and most of the classes.

[TheBrassDuke]

Because he's living magic. Magic within his ability merely bends before him without him really needing to try (he can activate scrolls and wands of the right type without a umd check). Thus, he has little need to study how magic works, so magic that lies without his ability is something he has little idea about.


Back to the main topic: Not much changes. Most skills aren't very reliable or significant enough to matter in the first place. Here's a another thread on the topic from not too far back (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477526-Class-Skills-What-s-the-point&highlight=skill). I hold that class skills are an annoying piece of mechanics made to try and enforce overly-specific stereotypes, and should go die in a fire, along with the multiclass penalties, most prerequisites, and most of the classes.

Fair enough, but a little choice in the matter would go a long way.

[Ruethgar]

And now the almighty Lucid Dreamers shall rule the earth!

[TheBrassDuke]

And now the almighty Lucid Dreamers shall rule the earth!

Go on... *produces the evil finger pyramid of contemplation*

https://45.media.tumblr.com/abe66b78168bcc74939bbb2b83fb32e7/tumblr_mg22hbJqtO1r9hvapo1_500.gif

[OldTrees1]

Didn't we just do this thread recently? As I recall there were two main viewpoints:

"Meh, doesn't really change anything."
"OMG YOU JUST MADE THE ROGUE WORTHLESS"


I recall a different two main viewpoints:

"That seems an easy way to fix improper class lists / I already do something equivalent to that"
"Rogues and other Skill Monkeys have only 2x-3x as many skill points. They are not OP already, so should they also get a buff to match this buff?"


Of course there were the side comments about flagrant abuses like Lucid Dreaming or other abnormally powerful skills being chosen merely for being powerful rather than allotting skill points based upon a character concept. However IIRC the consensus there was that abuse was abuse.

[Necroticplague]

Fair enough, but a little choice in the matter would go a long way.

I honestly agree. "Sorcerer" is a bit overly-specific a concept to exist as a class. Just have "Range AoE attacker", let you pick whatever skills you want, and toss whatever fluff you want on to it as long as it fits (whether you're a rapid-fire archer, a knife-flinging rogue, or fireball-launching sorceress).

[Ruethgar]

Go on... *produces the evil finger pyramid of contemplation*

https://45.media.tumblr.com/abe66b78168bcc74939bbb2b83fb32e7/tumblr_mg22hbJqtO1r9hvapo1_500.gif
Lucid Dream, without the auto-kill all dreamers use of the ability, is still supremely powerful for the ability to change architecture and plants specifically with a DC 20.

On the low end, Lucid Dream a building with a built in library of all knowledge in a language that uses few words to convey meaning. Autohypnosis DC 15 to memorize them all, you have 80hr per night to do this and using the outlines in Stronghold Builder's Guide for libraries and the rules for reference book costs in Races of Stone, you only need to memorize maybe 10 books per Knowledge to get a +8 to them all. This fits well as the Akashic Records if you have a meditative sort of character seeking knowledge.

On the high end, spell traps of Transdimensional spells. Summon gates and dream into being portals to anywhere in the multiverse and send however many spell traps you can activate in 10 rounds through every one round, including Time Stop. You can now cast everything and all you need is a +4 to Lucid Dreaming and then keep retrying til you get 20 on say a Rune Circle of +20 Lucid Dreaming.

If your DM rules that you still have to pay the costs for item creation in your dreams, dream up a Fanatic Treant that has max levels in everything to make things for you. They are plants after all and valid to be dreamed into being. Of course this also means that you would have to stay asleep longer than usual for the crafting, but that's ok, have your treant friend pull your body into the dream and shove you in a vat of True Created sleep potion. Or just have him True Create Ravenloft devices instead of magic items. They have the same effect anyway, just more expensive. Also you could dream in an endless supply of those plants from Dragon Magazine that grant one wish each and just Wish farm for everything.

Of course Experts, Generics, Factotums and Human Paragons can all already do this with ease and any Wis based character can do it with minimal investment even without the proposed change. I do believe that most every intelligent dreaming creature would be dead if a DM allowed Lucid Dreaming in their games. That pretty much leaves you with elves, elans, necropolitans, and warforged.

[Cosi]

Lucid Dream, without the auto-kill all dreamers use of the ability, is still supremely powerful for the ability to change architecture and plants specifically with a DC 20.

On the low end, Lucid Dream a building with a built in library of all knowledge in a language that uses few words to convey meaning. Autohypnosis DC 15 to memorize them all, you have 80hr per night to do this and using the outlines in Stronghold Builder's Guide for libraries and the rules for reference book costs in Races of Stone, you only need to memorize maybe 10 books per Knowledge to get a +8 to them all. This fits well as the Akashic Records if you have a meditative sort of character seeking knowledge.

On the high end, spell traps of Transdimensional spells. Summon gates and dream into being portals to anywhere in the multiverse and send however many spell traps you can activate in 10 rounds through every one round, including Time Stop. You can now cast everything and all you need is a +4 to Lucid Dreaming and then keep retrying til you get 20 on say a Rune Circle of +20 Lucid Dreaming.

If your DM rules that you still have to pay the costs for item creation in your dreams, dream up a Fanatic Treant that has max levels in everything to make things for you. They are plants after all and valid to be dreamed into being. Of course this also means that you would have to stay asleep longer than usual for the crafting, but that's ok, have your treant friend pull your body into the dream and shove you in a vat of True Created sleep potion. Or just have him True Create Ravenloft devices instead of magic items. They have the same effect anyway, just more expensive. Also you could dream in an endless supply of those plants from Dragon Magazine that grant one wish each and just Wish farm for everything.

Sure, but isn't that an argument that Lucid Dreaming is broken, not that removing class skills is broken? It seems that you could still do all of that (perhaps with skill boosters) even if you had to have levels in whatever class grants Lucid Dreaming.

[Ruethgar]

Sure, but isn't that an argument that Lucid Dreaming is broken, not that removing class skills is broken? It seems that you could still do all of that (perhaps with skill boosters) even if you had to have levels in whatever class grants Lucid Dreaming.

True, hence the last paragraph I edited in, however I was asked to go on so I did.

As to weather or not removing class skills would break or balance the game, neither. As I see it, it would allow you to better customize your character for what you want as far as flavor and maybe increase the utility. I would probably still keep them, but just make them more malleable such as letting you pick X number of skills to be class skills like the Generic Warrior, Expert, and Human Paragon. That way your training can still be seen as specialized in certain tasks without being pigeonholed into a certain set.