Could Anyone Offer some Ideas about Bardic Shenanigans Here?

[Doctor Despair]

So I've just noticed a fun bit of interplay here. So I'd first found the epic feat "Music of the Gods" that you can take, with appropriate work to get the perform ranks, at level 21. Music of the Gods allows your bardic music to affect creatures that otherwise would be immune to mind-affecting effects, albeit at -10 to the DC. I'd started scouring different bardic prestige classes for different uses of bardic music that might actually be useful at that level, but to no avail. Finally, I've discovered something, and put together a bit of a plan. There is a feat called Lyric Spell from Complete Adventurer (pg. 113) that offers the following benefit:

You can expend daily uses of your bardic music to cast any arcane spell that you know and can cast spontaneously. You must still use an action to cast the spell (following the normal rules for casting time), but using the Lyric Spell feat counts as part of the spellcasting action. Casting a spell requires one use of your bardic music ability, plus one additional use per level of the spell. For example, casting a 3rd-level spell requires four daily uses of your bardic music ability.

Now, if I am reading this ability correctly, this now causes the spell to become a use of bardic music. Therefore, this level 21 bard should now not only be able to use fascinate and suggestion on a target traditionally immune to mind-affecting effects, but also any other spontaneous arcane spell they know. With use of Joyful Noise (to counter silence), Subsonics (for deaf creatures), the Speak with Anything (living creatures), and whatever measures you must take to overcome spell resistance (arcane mastery, boosting CL, etc), it seems like this bard should be nigh-unstoppable unless it is killed on sight after losing initiative, considering Foresight is readily available at this level.

My questions to the Playground:


Does this seem like a fair reading of Lyric Spell and Music of the Gods?

Is there any way to speak to undead creatures? The closest thing I can find is the "Undead Empathy" feat, which allows specifically Diplomacy checks. Perform specifically mentions that it can be used in place of a Diplomacy check -- is this a permissible reading? Or is there something better I could opt for? And are there any other problem creatures that "Speak with Anything" will not cover?

What spells do you think would be the most useful to launch with this chain of feats?

What spells do you think would be the most amusing to launch with this chain of feats?


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The best uses I can seem to find are:

No Save:

Geas/Quest: A 6th level spell that bards have access to. More effective than Dominate Person since it isn't as easily detectable (no clause about sense motive here!), and with no save. A bard could easily fascinate a target to sit through the ten minute casting time (so that you don't need to bother with Uncanny Forethought standard-action shenanigans).

Pacification: Does the enemy not want to sit still for your fascination? This no-save spell will pause the combat and let you start in with that lovely fascinate/Geas combo. Limited by HD to Caster Level, so don't try to pacify the Terrasque -- that's what Irresistible Dance is for.

Otto's Irresistible Dance: A no-save single-target disable. It does require a touch attack, though one could meta-magic it to be longer if they so desired.

Ray of Dizziness: A long-range no-save single-target disable -- the enemy may not make full-round actions, but must either move or take a standard. This doesn't stop swift/immediate actions, so it doesn't totally break action economy, but it is a safe way to stop non-casters in their tracks and limit the spells a caster may use.

One Save:

Miser's Envy: While it does allow a save, it is a save that a good bard will have sky-high and easily unattainable outside of a nat 20. Force the enemy's strongest warrior to attack the second strongest! Or the guard to break down the door he's guarding! Disable two enemies for the price of one spell.

Adoration of the Frightful: Allows a save, but affects everyone in an emanation as you walk. All creatures are too afraid to attack and act as friendly! Stop any army in their tracks.

Calm Emotions: An alternative to Adoration of the Frightful, you can drop this spell from range to prevent hostile actions from archers or mages.

Song of Dischord: While it does allow a save, you can cause a group of creatures in a 20-foot radius (at range) to attack one another half the time. This is especially promising if you take something like Disguise Spell so that the targets do not know you caused the effect!

Zone of Truth: Ever-useful, this spell can finally make a return for late-game use in interrogations. It is not normally on the bardic spell list, however, so could represent cost to achieve.

Celebration: Perhaps the best, most useful spell here... You can make creatures drunk! What's more, this effect does not require a fortitude save, so, unlike the poisons of alcohol, should be able to affect things like constructs and undead. Finally, you have become the bard capable of catering Nearly Headless Nick's Deathday party!

[TheCrowing1432]

Your idea is incompatable.

Music of the Gods specifically states that the creatures are affected by your BARDIC MUSIC.

Lyric Spell simply spends your music attempts instead of spell slots in order to cast your spell. Its still a spell, not your bardic music.

You can only speak to undead creatures that have intelligence scores, otherwise there is no way to speak to them, other then something like Command Undead or Rebuking.

[Cerefel]

The main issue here is whether or not Lyric Spell counts as a bardic music effect, because there's a pretty solid case for it not being one dispite using daily bardic music attempts.

EDIT: Swordsaged

[Darrin]

Prerequisites: Cha 25, Perform 30 ranks, bardic music class feature

So... more like level 27. At that level, bypassing something like an immunity to mind-affecting or a silence spell feels a little anticlimactic. Not eligible for Dragonwrought Kobold shenanigans, either.

[Doctor Despair]

Darrin: Inspire Greatness has traditionally been the answer to achieving additional skill ranks, allowing you to achieve 30 ranks by level 21.


Edit: Using Song of the Heart increases the temporary HD to 3, Words of Creation doubles the HD to 6, raising the maximum skillcap from 24 to 30. Alternatively, the character could take 3 bloodline levels to raise the cap to 27, take the one Cityscape feat (Favored Contact? Or something like that) to gain 1 more skillrank, and then use an un-altered Inspire Greatness for the last two HD, or more ideally avoiding the Cityscape feat and just taking Song of the Heart to make the Inspire Greatness do the work for it -- as well as buffing DCs.


Crowing/Cerefel: Bardic Music's description does not actually list the abilities granted. It states:


Bardic Music
Once per day per bard level, a bard can use his song or poetics to produce magical effects on those around him (usually including himself, if desired). While these abilities fall under the category of bardic music and the descriptions discuss singing or playing instruments, they can all be activated by reciting poetry, chanting, singing lyrical songs, singing melodies, whistling, playing an instrument, or playing an instrument in combination with some spoken performance. Each ability requires both a minimum bard level and a minimum number of ranks in the Perform skill to qualify; if a bard does not have the required number of ranks in at least one Perform skill, he does not gain the bardic music ability until he acquires the needed ranks.

Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action. Some bardic music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must take a standard action each round to maintain the ability. Even while using bardic music that doesn’t require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), spell trigger (such as wands), or command word. Just as for casting a spell with a verbal component, a deaf bard has a 20% chance to fail when attempting to use bardic music. If he fails, the attempt still counts against his daily limit.

Each ability is a class feature that consumes bardic music uses. These Lyric Spell spells also consume bardic music charges. I suppose, if we are doubting that uses of Lyric Spell count as bardic music, then we are doubting that consuming bardic music charges is what designates an ability as bardic music, in which case... I have no idea what makes an ability count as bardic music. Each other ability (suggestion, fascinate, etc.) is a separate class feature of bard. None of them say that they are a "bardic music" ability, save for Suggestion that specifically calls out that it does not consume a charge of bardic music, which can either mean it is bardic music that is called out to be free after a fascination (which is more likely in my opinion, but leaves the question open as to what, then designates an ability as bardic music), or it is not bardic music because it does not consume a charge (in which case, why did it not say "this ability is not a usage of bardic music" instead of it not counting against its daily limit?). Are all class features of a bard bardic music regardless of whether they consume a charge?

It seems to me that the important emphasis here should be on the first paragraph. Lyric Spell allows a bard to use his song or poetics to produce magical effects (read: spells), using bardic music by singing, playing, etc. The feat requires a minimum bard level (1) and 9 ranks in perform. It seems that Lyric Spell is an ability that modifies bardic music to be able to replicate spells you know, not an ability that modifies spellcasting to consume bardic music charges.

Edit: I suppose with Command Undead, there isn't much need to worry about unintelligent undead since there is no save, haha. If someone else is commanding them, iirc, there is an opposed caster check to use it on the undead? There are other methods to deal with them in any case.

[Darrin]

Darrin: Inspire Greatness has traditionally been the answer to achieving additional skill ranks, allowing you to achieve 30 ranks by level 21.


Aha! Thank you for clarifying.

Requiem (Libris Mortis) is probably your go-to for getting bardic music to work with undead.

[Doctor Despair]

Aha! Thank you for clarifying.

Requiem (Libris Mortis) is probably your go-to for getting bardic music to work with undead.

Huh.. Music of the Gods says that it affects "those immune to mind-affecting effects", but bardic music is a language-dependent ability. Requiem saying that it affects undead as well might, despite the overlap, be just the ticket to bypass the "mindless undead not having language" deal!

Edit: Regardless, Irresistible Dance seems like a good one to use on any mindless undead one might encounter. Literally Thriller, haha.

[Hiro Quester]

Darrin: Inspire Greatness has traditionally been the answer to achieving additional skill ranks, allowing you to achieve 30 ranks by level 21.


Edit: Using Song of the Heart increases the temporary HD to 3, Words of Creation doubles the HD to 6, raising the maximum skillcap from 24 to 30. Alternatively, the character could take 3 bloodline levels to raise the cap to 27, take the one Cityscape feat (Favored Contact? Or something like that) to gain 1 more skillrank, and then use an un-altered Inspire Greatness for the last two HD, or more ideally avoiding the Cityscape feat and just taking Song of the Heart to make the Inspire Greatness do the work for it -- as well as buffing DCs.



Huh... Can you please explain how this is supposed to work? I don't see it.

IG grants temporary bonus Hit dice, but these are not regular skill-granting leveling-up-in-a-class hit dice, as far as I can tell (they are d10s, regardless of what you regular HD are). The effect description lists the effects:


A creature inspired with greatness gains 2 bonus Hit Dice (d10s), the commensurate number of temporary hit points (apply the target’s Constitution modifier, if any, to these bonus Hit Dice), a +2 competence bonus on attack rolls, and a +1 competence bonus on Fortitude saves. The bonus Hit Dice count as regular Hit Dice for determining the effect of spells that are Hit Dice dependant.

And skill points and max ranks are based on your class levels, not on your hit dice:


the maximum ranks in a class skill for a character is the character’s level + 3

So the maximum skill ranks you can have is dependent on your class levels, not your hit dice.

Plus for Inspire Greatness "The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter."

So using this to grant temporary hit dice that stick around permanently and qualify you for feats, means you must perform Inspire Greatness continuously, 24/7, and so never sleep, never recharge your spells, and never use bardic music for anything else (unless you have the Seeker of the Song's ability to combine songs).